Guild Wars 2

Hi there!

I have some problems to understand “improvisation” in the deadly arts traitline.
What does that mean? Do I need to have 3 utilites of the same type; fe signets?

Or is it the F1 skill when you achieved to use steal on a target successfully?

From the Wiki:

Steal is not a bundle; the damage bonus from this trait affects found items that replace the weapon skill bar such as Conjures and Banners.

exii.8913:

Hi there!

I have some problems to understand “improvisation” in the deadly arts traitline.
What does that mean? Do I need to have 3 utilites of the same type; fe signets?

Or is it the F1 skill when you achieved to use steal on a target successfully?

Hello!

Unfortunately my friend, you are currently looking at one of the most useless traits in the game to date. Initially, I thought that it meant you gain a damage bonus when holding a stolen item. In truth, you only gain the bonus when wielding an environmental weapon; i.e. metal rod, plank of wood… All the things you would NEVER use in favor of your actual weapons. The only exception is the Elementalist’s conjure weapons and that is nowhere near enough to save it.

As for the utility skill recharge, I don’t think it matters if you have all the same types of utilities. However, keep in mind that it decides which utility group to recharge at random, so it might very well give the bonus to something you’re not using… Only adding to the uselessness of the trait.

TL;DR: It’s a horrible trait and has been that way since day one. Until Anet decides to listen to us and tweak it, I would just pretend it doesn’t exist.

The rest of the Thief community certainly does…

Thx for the detailed information but its not about to you to judge of its usefulness.
Improvisation is an absolutely standart skill on the Panic Strike spec even without the dmg bonus. Most specs currently using Shadow Step and Shadow Refuge, I tested this build for a couple of weeks and I must admit playing the 2/6/0/0/6 spec now feels like very outdated.

But I wanted to know for myself if it would be worth using in PvE. Since ele became very famous for every dungeon, the chances to grab a conjure weapon (even in PUGs) isnt that bad.

Improvisation isnt all that bad, in fact, you can can opt for it over +5% dagger dmg when traiting 60206 as D/P.
It synergizes really well with the trickery line and SoH, since you’ll be looking at potential extra uses of basi venom and/or utilities. If you’r playstyle involves not using steal as your opener (whereby some/all of your utilities are on CD), it can be really helpful, to the point of (RNG hero baby) turning the entire fight in your favor, by giving you a premature use of shadowstep, shadow refuge, blinding powder etc., whatever you use.

I don’t use it, preferring the non-RNG’y +5% dagger damage, but a substantial number of thieves use it, and I can see why.

improvisation is a sexy trait <3 cd reset every 21 seconds is pretty awesome.

exii.8913:

Thx for the detailed information but its not about to you to judge of its usefulness.
Improvisation is an absolutely standart skill on the Panic Strike spec even without the dmg bonus. Most specs currently using Shadow Step and Shadow Refuge, I tested this build for a couple of weeks and I must admit playing the 2/6/0/0/6 spec now feels like very outdated.

But I wanted to know for myself if it would be worth using in PvE. Since ele became very famous for every dungeon, the chances to grab a conjure weapon (even in PUGs) isnt that bad.

Really? On a Panic Strike set? I have never heard of it being “absolutely standard” on anything. I’ll have to look that up. I’ve only ever heard people say that it needs to be changed and all information I can find on the trait points to its extremely situational nature at least IMHO, so I doubt that’s an accurate statement. But then again, I am not an expert on all thief builds and I’m more of a burst damage/Critical Strikes guy myself, so I could be entirely wrong. Care to explain in more detail why it’s so essential on Panic Strike builds?

Regardless, the only weapons that would effectively benefit from the Improvisation damage boost are the Elementalist conjure weapons and I’ve found in my experience that my DPS is better when I just stick with main weapons, with perhaps the one exception being the Greatsword. So that would make the damage bonus null and void. As for the utility recharge on steal, that is only a valid argument if you don’t open with steal or you’re in a particularly drawn out fight. And again, the wiki clearly states that it chooses one of the 5 skill types to recharge at random and that it will not necessarily recharge the type of skills you’re using. Most people I’ve played with and builds I’ve seen use utility skills from only 2 of the 5 utility types (Deception being the most popular). That means, at least from all the info I can gather, most people only have a 2 in 5 chance that it will recharge skills that they’re using at all, let alone the ones that they need to be recharged (if anyone has any research or info sources that says it is more likely to recharge skill types that you are currently using, by all means show me. I honestly have never heard this).

Long story short, I just don’t see any reason why someone would use Improvisation over other traits, especially for a master trait slot. The damage bonus can almost be ignored in most situations and frankly, the recharge on steal just seems like gambling… I think there are other better traits for that slot. Running a dagger burst set? Dagger Mastery gives you a 5% damage increase for all dagger skills. Using any other pure damage set? You’ve got Combined Training for a 5% increase in combo skill damage. Venoms? Quick Venoms’ 20% cooldown reduction sounds far more useful than using steal every 21 seconds and praying that it chooses to recharge your venoms.

Again, I don’t claim to know everything and I’m not trying to sound like a know-it-all (I’m hoping the way I worded this post made that clear). If you can explain why the trait is useful and back it up with facts, I’m willing to try and listen. But I honestly can not see any good reason why someone would use Improvisation over other options in the Deadly Arts line. It doesn’t make sense logically and it doesn’t seem to make sense on paper either…

Hello!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Improvisation

I made the important part of improvisation bold for you.

Stealing recharges all skills of one type (venoms, signets, traps, tricks, or deceptions). Deal bonus damage when wielding a bundle.

Damage Damage Increase: 10%

The standard D/P Panic Strike Build uses this utilities:

Infiltrators Signet (Signet)
Shadow Refuge ( Deception)
Shadowstep (Deception)
Basilisk Venom (Venom)

You have three different categories of utilities equipped so the chance is quite high that it resets one of those utilities.

I take this trait anytime over a flat 5% damage increase on daggers.

Best regards!

Shino

^ Thats it.
I might be wrong but I never noticed that my elite was recharged when using steal sucessfully. So if Im right, the trait is limited to the utlily slots.
I dont play with poison because I personally think they are absolutely useless unless you are running with poison share, but once used you are just a victim against good players/groups. So I cant say if the heal and the elite also will be effected but it definitly depends on what utilities are actually on cooldown.

Another good reason is that I noticed myself using far more often Shadow Step as condition remove. The stealth as the only thing you have is far not enough. When gaining multiple conditions it would force you to stealth unnecessary longer as you have to and this also would be an effort for your initiative pool.
Since Im playing this spec, I must say that D/D and S/F condition ele are usally no more problems for me, good D/D types stretching a fight really far at least. And even average condition Rangers can be fought and some cases. But the condi cleanse is still not good enough to not fear engineers anymore. I usally never starting a 1on1 against an engineer, even with my actually condition removes.

But what I also noticed is that there must be a bug or an internal cooldown which isnt shown at the describtion. If so, I guess its about 45 secs.

I wont use it in PvE because as already being said, the normal dmg rotation with your own weapons is more powerful over time.

Shinobi.3240:

Hello!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Improvisation

I made the important part of improvisation bold for you.

Stealing recharges all skills of one type (venoms, signets, traps, tricks, or deceptions). Deal bonus damage when wielding a bundle.

Damage Damage Increase: 10%

The standard D/P Panic Strike Build uses this utilities:

Infiltrators Signet (Signet)
Shadow Refuge ( Deception)
Shadowstep (Deception)
Basilisk Venom (Venom)

You have three different categories of utilities equipped so the chance is quite high that it resets one of those utilities.

I take this trait anytime over a flat 5% damage increase on daggers.

Best regards!

Shino

Hello!

I’ve seen the wiki and read it multiple times, even while I was making my last post to check my facts. I am well aware of what the trait does. The damage bonus is essentially moot in most instances, since it doesn’t apply unless you’re using something that replaces your weapon skills.

That leaves the steal recharge as the only real benefit to taking Improvisation. If that is the normal loadout for a Panic Strike build, than that makes the chance that it will recharge at least one of your skills 3/5. I apologize for that mistake earlier. However, that still translates (if my math is correct) to a 60% that it will recharge one of the three utility skill types you’re using. That only 10% more likely than a coin flip theoretically speaking and still a 40% chance that it will try and recharge traps or tricks, wasting the recharge opportunity. What’s more, it decides which trait to recharge at random, meaning while it has a 60% of any skills you have, you can’t be certain that it will choose the skills you most need at the time. Shadowstep and Shadow Refuge are always good skills to have off cooldown and Basilisk Venom is great for stuns and interrupts, but it could also recharge Infiltrators Signet, which again is useful, but it’s active is used more often as an initiation/chasing tool, at least when I seen it used. That would make it less useful a recharge during longer, toe-to-toe fights, especially if you’re losing and want to try and disengage.

Also, keep in mind that the recharge chance is only 60% if all your skills are on cooldown. If some have not been used when you pop steal and it chooses a skill type that is already available, that is once again a waste of the recharge opportunity.

The trait just seems way too gamble heavy and reliant on chance. Maybe it’s just my personal preference, but I would take something I know will happen any day over something that might happen… Unless of course the odds were stacked more in my favor, like 80% or higher. And even if they were, the uncertainty of how it would work given the circumstances just doesn’t make sense to me.

Improv has been one of the strongest, if not the strongest, traits in PvP for almost 2 years. There’s just not many options to fit it in a build.

I used Improv for quite some time, and the recharge on it is pretty slick. They never fixed the bundle issue. Originally, stealing granted the thief a bundle, which is why this trait addresses bundles specifically. This was changed to the current system of stolen skills shortly before release as thieves in testing didn’t like being stuck with bundles when stealing.

Improv’s bundle interactions still have some interesting teamfight interactions though, but you should really be equipping it for the recharge, and only if your build is using at least 3 different kinds of utility skills.

If you’re already equipping it though? Make a beeline any time you see an ele drop a conjured weapon, an engineer drop a traited supply drop with the flamethrower, or any of the more worthwhile bundles in the world (like those in the claw fight or various other special encounters) The buffed damage to these is pretty neat depending on how damage heavy your gear is.

PopeUrban.2578:

I used Improv for quite some time, and the recharge on it is pretty slick. They never fixed the bundle issue. Originally, stealing granted the thief a bundle, which is why this trait addresses bundles specifically. This was changed to the current system of stolen skills shortly before release as thieves in testing didn’t like being stuck with bundles when stealing.

Improv’s bundle interactions still have some interesting teamfight interactions though, but you should really be equipping it for the recharge, and only if your build is using at least 3 different kinds of utility skills.

If you’re already equipping it though? Make a beeline any time you see an ele drop a conjured weapon, an engineer drop a traited supply drop with the flamethrower, or any of the more worthwhile bundles in the world (like those in the claw fight or various other special encounters) The buffed damage to these is pretty neat depending on how damage heavy your gear is.

That’s the main thing. If the 10% damage increase applied to steal items (which is honestly what makes the most sense. It baffled my mind when I realized it didn’t work that way) I would immediately concede that the trait is superior to any of the other traits in the line up to that point. Possibly one of the best traits the Thief has period. Since it doesn’t however, I just don’t see the potential recharge as worth it. But If this many people believe otherwise, maybe I’ve been missing something. I’ll try it for myself and see what happens…

I personally still think dmg benefit is completely useless, even for dungeon runs.
Elementalists do tons of dmg more with conjure weapons through their massive counts of bonus % dmg. I managed to hit 15.4k with LH on the coe golem yet and about 7.8k hits with the frost bow on ele and I wasnt even able to achieve a 9k hit with the LH on thief.

Narcarsis.5739:

Improv has been one of the strongest, if not the strongest, traits in PvP for almost 2 years. There’s just not many options to fit it in a build.

Gotta agree with this. While it does come down to a certain amount of luck for resetting the utilities you’re running and are on cd, it can easily swing fights into your favor. While PvE might be different where the straight +5% dmg on daggers increase outweighs cd resetting, in PvP improvisation can be a life saver.

That being said, the best build I’ve found to put it into is 6 2 0 0 6 power p/d build, that isn’t quite a viable SPvP option (you could still have success running it), but which is very good for WvW roaming.

exii.8913:

I personally still think dmg benefit is completely useless, even for dungeon runs.
Elementalists do tons of dmg more with conjure weapons through their massive counts of bonus % dmg. I managed to hit 15.4k with LH on the coe golem yet and about 7.8k hits with the frost bow on ele and I wasnt even able to achieve a 9k hit with the LH on thief.

This is precisely why all the conjure summons summon two weapons, one for the ele, and one for a friend. At least in theory anyway. It is a little…. awkward to be in a party with a “conjure spec” that yells at everyone for “stealing my conjures”

Co-Op mechanics are weird.

d/p, shortbow 6/0/2/0/6 is a good build to use in. improv is super good the ability to reset one of your utility skills is amazing and opens up a lot more options through out the fight and adds some unpredictability while fighting you. But because all of your utilities are basically always useful it doesn’t feel like an unpredictable trait to take. the damage bonus does not matter stop thinking about it…