Guild Wars 2

forums bug resolve

A range weapon? 1200-1500.. make it pistol if you want.. just something to feel usefull at seige when you cannot have a cata.
Give us a trait that change steal:
Steal not teleport the enemy to your position ( 1200, unblockable, req. a target maybe..)

Reduce Steal CD to 25 or less, feel like we got the highest CD on our prof skill compared to the usefulness. Or at least give it some pasisve? As long as you do not have your steal on CD you and your allies gain 5% dmg.
Lower Mug dmg.

Give PI a CD on 3-5 sec, to avoid interuption spam. But let it affect up to 3 target.

Change scorpion wire:
Throw three wires, which applies 3 stacks of bleed 10 sec, and pull up to three enemies infront of you.
Make it more like the guardians pull.

Increase range of Thrill of Crime and Bountifull thief to at least 900. Make boutifull thief steal up to 5 stacks.
Increase Buff time on Thrill of Crime.

Reduce the AA of Staff, maybe increase on dust strike.
Lower dmg on vault, but make it interrupt on impact, max 3 targets 4cd, even if no targets are hit (only on the interruption). This is to play more with the synagy between the PI talent. Also trying to read your enemies more, than just spam an attack.

Make Pain Response remove all conditions.

Shadow embrace and Cloaked shadow change place. Shadow Embrace now remove all condition upon stealth, and all kind of condition. OP? with everything revealling and keeping us for stealthing? Narh Give those who want to play around with stealth a decent change to re engange the current condi meta.

Preassure strike is now a teamwide buff, consider a iCD then. But this should help in both pve and pve. range 1200. And make it a visible choice over bountiful thief, if you want to support the group.

Yeah we got lot of active defence and dodge, but you know what? So does other professions.

So my last crazy suggestion, move up from the low health pool, to medium.. heck why not high.
At least let us sit with Mesmers, revenants, ranger and engineers.

As an ele, with lowest health and armour, I still feel more resilient than my thief, due to so much healing, active defence etc.

I know I am a low skilled player, but these suggestion would just make me want to play my thief more.
I feel really useless in a team.

Shadowstep.6049:

I see 3 major issues with thieves:

- We have the damage but we can’t land it on anything besides other thieves because every other classes has so many passives + blocks, weakness, blinds, invuls, perma protection etc. I am not fan of powercreep but if things are not going to change thief needs more tools to deal with such walls (e.g. unblockables, more boon steal etc.)

- team utility is abysmal. Same reason why d/p is the set to use in pvp since it is only thing really that offers any kind of utility for team. Our utilities are also abysmally bad besides few must haves that everyone used for years – i think devs really need to look how we can be more useful for groups. In pvp it might be ok because we decap all day anyway (although team utility is why revs took over thieves) but in pve and wvw i feel like we are really really really unwanted because other classes do as much if not more dmg and bring by far more team utility (i had some “nice” discussion with my raid leader about my thief vs my ele qq).

- we supposed to be kings of mobility and that is why we are squishy but other classes are not that far behind us. Anet gave all classes so much mobility that in most cases if you go for decap your own speed will buy you maybe 1 sec before someone arrives – not to mention you are out of CD and ini while they have all their spells and dodges. I see no other way to fix it as to dramatically increase CD on mobility for other classes.

Especially the 1st point. When I try to attack someone, it is a constant invulnerable, block block block, invulnerable. Warriors, guardians and mesmers on top I’d say. So we can’t burst anyone down excepted for other thieves.
I love my S/D build, but I rarely use the OH dagger skills as they simply suck. I like the flanking strike (3) but it is hard to land on defenseless people, so better forget about placing it on top of all the blocks and invul trash. These passive and long blocks pollute this game so much…

I agree this is the solution :

TwiceDead.1963:

Well… The wise choice would be to tone down EVERYONE ELSE. Literally, nerf all the other classes that needs it down to our level, and do away with most of the passive defenses that plague the game that makes most of our additional playstyles useless, then buff acrobatics and nerf DrD.

But since that would take a massive amount of work and ANET only knows how to provide powercreep, buff thief somehow.

Shadowstep.6049:

Zilvereen.2091:

I think he needs a boost on his sustains because he gets too much punishment for a single mistake. Usually it goes like this

I evade
I evade
I evade
I fail to evade and I lose 2/3 of my health

So unless Anet wants this class to be balanced around asian reflexes they should do smth about teef’s sustain like boosting his health-gain-regen on evade or smth.

The fun fact, since thief was forced into “asian reflexes” gameplay everyone is crying rivers about thief dodges now lol.

This is what I’ve been talking about.

We’re forced into crazy timing like this is some kind of quick-time event rhythm game, then people start complaining about it when our ONLY real defense was “50% more dodge than all other classes (and various effects stacked onto successful dodges like vigor, condi-cleanse, etc.).”

If we had more baseline capability, we wouldn’t NEED to be obnoxious dodge-spammers.

A little info from my prior post:
I’ve been running a high life-gain build (Assassin’s Reward, Invigorating Precision, ~225% crit damage, 75% crit chance, rounded out with Shadow Arts) which would go up the slightest pittance more with Signet of Malice. Even with all that I cannot recover fast enough to compensate for the bursty damage most mobs deal in the expansion content and Silverwastes, yet in Central Tyria I have few if any problems getting into a 1v4 fight (in PvE, of course!)

I think Thief is one the classes that suffered most with a change to the pacing and nature of the game. Although D/P has been the optimal set for a long time now, you could still get S/P, S/D and D/D to work and be meaningful. Now they are just totally redundant weapon sets because they just don’t have the pacing to keep up with anything else. Anet needs to either overhaul every single weapon in the game to be as relevant as HoT things or they need to reduce the pacing of the game to allow the methodical nature of other weapon sets to prevail. Auto-attacking and shadow shotting on D/P or Vault spamming on staff is all that Thief is now – it’s incredibly banal.

Sword needs some buffs to make it more fluid of a set to use.

Stealth attacks need some buffs to make them worth setting up and executing. Stealth stacking should be reduced in order to justify improving the power of stealth attacks.

Decrease the evade access on some weapon sets (D/D and Staff) to make perma-evade skills less possible.

Improve shortbow’s ability to do limited AoE damage. Buff the cluster bomb damage slightly and duration of the poison field.

Add in condition clear on successful Stealth Attack and decrease the condition clear on evade mechanic in Daredevil.

saerni.2584:

Sword needs some buffs to make it more fluid of a set to use.

Stealth attacks need some buffs to make them worth setting up and executing. Stealth stacking should be reduced in order to justify improving the power of stealth attacks.

Decrease the evade access on some weapon sets (D/D and Staff) to make perma-evade skills less possible.

Improve shortbow’s ability to do limited AoE damage. Buff the cluster bomb damage slightly and duration of the poison field.

Add in condition clear on successful Stealth Attack and decrease the condition clear on evade mechanic in Daredevil.

They added a CD to our stealth attacks that’s enough of a justification for giving it a bit more damage for example buff backstab damage by like 5-10% or make it apply a condi like vulnerability and you could also buff something like sword tactical strike make it so that it dazes for longer or make it a full stun from behind. Shortbow needs some tweaking (have you tried firing a shortbow with quickness there is some weird aftercast or whatever you wanna call it) it does not really need a damage buff if they just made it more fluid for example reduce the aftercast and increase the projectile speed of trickshot, clusterbomb and chocking gas. That would be a start at least. And maybe increase the attack speed of CnD

S/X might need a few enhancements , but it has very specific strengths not inherent in other weapons. I personally do not feel the s portion of the set in that bad a place (outside the stealth attack which needs a bit more). the off hand dagger is where it lacking.

While dagger mainhand might do more damage with its AA a build need not be all about damage unless it so lacking it unusable and I do not think this the case with S/x.

The very specific advantages of s/d over the more popular d/p are these.

A port that is both IN and out that brings a condition cleanse.
The inherent ability to steal boons.
A built in evade.

It my opinion that to take the best advantage of the set a given build must focus on some combination of these specific advantages. As example if focusing on cleanse , a given build should have multiple sources so as to make it very resistant to condition builds. If focused on porting a build should have other sources of ports (Infiltrators signet, shadowstep, shadowtrap) and evades it should be a high evade build going the acro route with DD. With boon theft RS and BT has to be considered.

If one goes “I am going to get JUST enough of any of these things” route than one might as well go d/p which can also get “just enough” of those things along with its higher damage and blind and easy stealth access.

I really do not think the thief needs a whole lot. Subtle tweaks and slight nerfs to skills that overperform (both to the theif profession and others) is the best route to take.

Biggest problem in my eyes is that D/P outshines in most aspects the other weaponsets. Stealth on demand, high burst Dmg, Blinds spam and interrupts. All what u need nowdays.
For me i think slight nerfs/buffs doesn’t bring them in line. There should be some rework done.

Leolas.6273:

Biggest problem in my eyes is that D/P outshines in most aspects the other weaponsets. Stealth on demand, high burst Dmg, Blinds spam and interrupts. All what u need nowdays.
For me i think slight nerfs/buffs doesn’t bring them in line. There should be some rework done.

Sure but I do not think d/p needs a nerf or rework because it’s not a overpowered weaponset not compared to other classes but all the other thief weaponsets need looking at but a full rework may not be needed just changing the skills a little for example the blind on stealth in SA could be made baseline for CnD that little change would do a lot for the set. And both sword mainhand and shortbow just needs to feel a bit more fluid to use maybe incease the attack speed slightly and reduce aftercast that would help both s/x and sb. P/P is in a decent spot with a lot of burst at least in pvp maybe if we could have ricochet back or some sort of pierce effect on it. Can’t speak much for p/d haven’t played that much. That’s my suggestion atleast

How many times do I have to say it.

CiS does almost nothing for OH dagger/CnD. You can dodge during CnD’s animation and negate an attack while gaining stealth just like the blind. All it does is make landing CnD more punishing. But CnD isn’t weak because it isn’t punishing (okay it is now with the ICD on stealth attacks but that’s still unrelated to CnD); it’s weak because it has horrible consistency and costs too much initiative to likely miss/get blocked/invulned etc. and for then the same thing to happen to its follow-through with the stealth attack ICD.

In this game state, baseline CiS will do literally nothing to make OH dagger better. It’s about the least-useful change possible.

Reduce/remove the ICD on stealth attacks, cut down the number of blocks and negation effects in the game, put it to cost 5 init, and bring back two-stack BV, and CnD is fine.

Dagger’s issue is its relatively weak skills on 3 and 4 for power builds and terrible utiltiy in most cases when compared to D/P.

Death Blossom needs to be reworked into a mobility-based dodge, split the condition pressure from it into Dancing Dagger, and up its projectile speed.

Put an ICD on Daredevil’s ID trait and now D/D is in a much better spot and much less cheesy for condition builds.

Shadowstep.6049:

I see 3 major issues with thieves:

- We have the damage but we can’t land it on anything besides other thieves

Many thieves will disagree

Shadowstep.6049:

- team utility is abysmal.

Thief is a free roam, burst and go class based on ports and stealth. I dont really see how a class like that is going to be able to give true team utility. They are often at range when too many enemy skills are going off so they dont get blown up and when they are in range its either for a really short time or they are in stealth. Unless the team utility you want has a radius of 1200 (which is too high plus adds to their defense) thieves and team utility dont go together.

Shadowstep.6049:

- we supposed to be kings of mobility and that is why we are squishy

You are squishy because of stealth and permanently evading while doing high damage not just because of mobility.

1200 Ranged weapon is all we really need. Team support would be nice but thief isn’t really built upon that aspect. Thief is more or less supposed to be a slippery solo roamer.

90% of the thiefs play the same build and with the same weaponset (D/P / SB). So i think that says all.

Evade spam thief is satan to fight against. Especially condi evade spam. I think toning this down will allow for more interesting mechanics that have counterplay to be implemented.

Cecilia.5179:

Evade spam thief is satan to fight against. Especially condi evade spam. I think toning this down will allow for more interesting mechanics that have counterplay to be implemented.

Yes the nerfing of D/D is the most important thing thieves need at this point. You thieves will never get any significant buffs until Anet nerfs D/D

Eval.2371:

• We lack survivability to deal with aoe cleave. When we are in a big fight we resort to haphazardly dodging to avoid aoe cleave because if we don’t we melt to sheer amount of it.

• We lack the ability to indefinitely pressure targets that have an abundance of passive defenses or immunities. Stealth attack? block. Unload spam? invuln, Stack bleed & confusion? resistance.

• Trickery & DrD are mandatory. Because of the two above, we are reduced to spaming both our defensive and offensive mechanics. Be it aimless dodges in hope to avoid cleave, or unloads chained together because its our only good option, or stacking stealth endlessly until we have an opportunity to land a stealth attack. Not having trickery or DrD limits your ability to succeed in either category as you will run out of resources.

Until these three get fixed we wont have any semblance of weapon or build diversity. d/d, s/p s/d, p/d and p/p suck because thief it self falls short. Were unreliable gimmick at best in the current meta without d/p or daredevil.

Eval.2371:

Eval.2371:

• We lack survivability to deal with aoe cleave. When we are in a big fight we resort to haphazardly dodging to avoid aoe cleave because if we don’t we melt to sheer amount of it.

• We lack the ability to indefinitely pressure targets that have an abundance of passive defenses or immunities. Stealth attack? block. Unload spam? invuln, Stack bleed & confusion? resistance.

• Trickery & DrD are mandatory. Because of the two above, we are reduced to spaming both our defensive and offensive mechanics. Be it aimless dodges in hope to avoid cleave, or unloads chained together because its our only good option, or stacking stealth endlessly until we have an opportunity to land a stealth attack. Not having trickery or DrD limits your ability to succeed in either category as you will run out of resources.

Until these three get fixed we wont have any semblance of weapon or build diversity. d/d, s/p s/d, p/d and p/p suck because thief it self falls short. Were unreliable gimmick at best in the current meta without d/p or daredevil.

yet ppl claim we can perm. dodge (which we can’t) and stealth is op even tho you have only one chance to land bs and after that you have to wait 3s(pve/wvw) and 4s (pvp) before you are able to enter stealth due the reveal you get…. yeah great idea let’s make thief immune to his own stealth x’D oh and as a side note there are tons of reveals out there as well and some skills are still locking onto any invisible thief.

on top of that bs is our strongest single hit attack but it needs way more skill to use then other skills from different classes which require less skill to use and deal more dmg.

all in all… a thief is atm only good for capturing points and 2v1 situations (which btw any class can win in a 2v1 situation)
1v1 is a different story… you have to be 200% better with your thief then your opponent is with his class in order to win… so thief requires a way higher skill level in order to be successfull then any other class.

i agree with you Eval… thief needs some changes …
a thief should be more of a 1v1 class …

Eval.2371:

• We lack survivability to deal with aoe cleave. When we are in a big fight we resort to haphazardly dodging to avoid aoe cleave because if we don’t we melt to sheer amount of it.

I think you mean passive survivability because dodging is the active version of it.

The only reliable passive survivability the Thief have is buried in SA and only active when in stealth — yet ArenaNet keeps on adding anti-stealth into the game.

The Thief have the survivability, however they are crippled by Revealed debuff and self- inflicted Revealed attached to any attacks done in stealth.

If they choose to keep Revealed debuff, they need to get those traits outside of SA and have them trigger even not in stealth. If the Thief uses a skill that would gran them stealth, but cannot stealth due to Revealed, the traits should still trigger as if they are in stealth, perhaps in a shorter duration (e.g. 2sec). Otherwise, Revealed debuff just needs to go.

• We lack the ability to indefinitely pressure targets that have an abundance of passive defenses or immunities. Stealth attack? block. Unload spam? invuln, Stack bleed & confusion? resistance.

This is really not about the Thief, rather it’s about those professions. ArenaNet needs to create a window of opportunity against those professions. The constant turtling is not only annoying to play against but as an spectator, it’s also boring to watch.

• Trickery & DrD are mandatory. Because of the two above, we are reduced to spaming both our defensive and offensive mechanics. Be it aimless dodges in hope to avoid cleave, or unloads chained together because its our only good option, or stacking stealth endlessly until we have an opportunity to land a stealth attack. Not having trickery or DrD limits your ability to succeed in either category as you will run out of resources.

This has been mentioned time and time again. Thief needs 15 (or 18) initiatives base, low Steal cooldown, and Staff without spec’ing DD. Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This has been mentioned time and time again. Thief needs 15 (or 18) initiatives base, low Steal cooldown, and Staff without spec’ing DD. Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

18 init would be way too much baseline, for one, and Trickery will be effectively mandatory so long as ToTC, LA and BT are still used in one trait line with no similar or superior options to any of them in other lines.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

Wat.

You mean the third dodge, amazing cleanse potential on EA or huge additional damage, CV, effectively a second heal from DF, and either an effective immunity to immob/cripple/chill or easily-permanent stealth uptime were not good enough reasons not to take Daredevil?

The only reason to ever drop Daredevil aside from ghost thief is if core trait lines get massively buffed (unlikely), ANet absolutely gores it with aggressive HoT-content nerfs (even more unlikely) or ANet power creeps the next elite spec to the point the thief becomes actually overpowered (also fairly unlikely).

Rending shade is superior to bountiful theft as far as boon theft goes.

Thrill of the crime is not required an a build using trickery. In an acro and or DD build the Swiftness redundant . Fury has other sources and is not needed in a condition build. Uncatchable or flanking strikes a superior choice in many builds just as trickster can be better than BT.

TOTC and BT are not the main reasons to take trickery.

The main reason to take trickery is it has traits that work for a wider build variety at any one position and has that extra INI along with a very flexible lead attacks.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This has been mentioned time and time again. Thief needs 15 (or 18) initiatives base, low Steal cooldown, and Staff without spec’ing DD. Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

18 init would be way too much baseline, for one, and Trickery will be effectively mandatory so long as ToTC, LA and BT are still used in one trait line with no similar or superior options to any of them in other lines.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

Wat.

You mean the third dodge, amazing cleanse potential on EA or huge additional damage, CV, effectively a second heal from DF, and either an effective immunity to immob/cripple/chill or easily-permanent stealth uptime were not good enough reasons not to take Daredevil?

The only reason to ever drop Daredevil aside from ghost thief is if core trait lines get massively buffed (unlikely), ANet absolutely gores it with aggressive HoT-content nerfs (even more unlikely) or ANet power creeps the next elite spec to the point the thief becomes actually overpowered (also fairly unlikely).

stopped at permanent stealth….
either you haven’t played thief at all or you are just a troll … there is no such thing as permanent stealth.
with d/p you can get a max of 3 stacks stealth (which are ~5s tops because of animation time and so on) after one attack you get a debuff (revealt) which makes you immune to your own stealth. revealt lasts 3s in pve and wvw and 4s in pvp.

oh and before you ask no there is also no perma dodge either.

thief requires the most ammount of playerskill to use. thats not what balance is…
all a thief can do is cap/decap a point and looking for a 2v1 or an enemy on max 50% health.

a thief should be more like an assassin… a 1v1 class … its kinda dumb to have a thief as useless leg man (english isn’t my 1st language dunno if thats the correct translation tho). everyone can win in a 2v1 or against an opponent with 50% health.

Nenshoukarasu.6598:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This has been mentioned time and time again. Thief needs 15 (or 18) initiatives base, low Steal cooldown, and Staff without spec’ing DD. Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

18 init would be way too much baseline, for one, and Trickery will be effectively mandatory so long as ToTC, LA and BT are still used in one trait line with no similar or superior options to any of them in other lines.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

Wat.

You mean the third dodge, amazing cleanse potential on EA or huge additional damage, CV, effectively a second heal from DF, and either an effective immunity to immob/cripple/chill or easily-permanent stealth uptime were not good enough reasons not to take Daredevil?

The only reason to ever drop Daredevil aside from ghost thief is if core trait lines get massively buffed (unlikely), ANet absolutely gores it with aggressive HoT-content nerfs (even more unlikely) or ANet power creeps the next elite spec to the point the thief becomes actually overpowered (also fairly unlikely).

stopped at permanent stealth….
either you haven’t played thief at all or you are just a troll … there is no such thing as permanent stealth.
with d/p you can get a max of 3 stacks stealth (which are ~5s tops because of animation time and so on) after one attack you get a debuff (revealt) which makes you immune to your own stealth. revealt lasts 3s in pve and wvw and 4s in pvp.

oh and before you ask no there is also no perma dodge either.

thief requires the most ammount of playerskill to use. thats not what balance is…
all a thief can do is cap/decap a point and looking for a 2v1 or an enemy on max 50% health.

a thief should be more like an assassin… a 1v1 class … its kinda dumb to have a thief as useless leg man (english isn’t my 1st language dunno if thats the correct translation tho). everyone can win in a 2v1 or against an opponent with 50% health.

As it is now you can actually 1v1 a lot of classes especially in WvW for example rev is pretty easy to deal with same goes for most necros. As for permanent stealth the o ly thing you need to gain perma stealth is shadow arts you need to take both hidden thief and shadows rejuvenation plus make sure you have blinding powder equipped and there you go perma stealth. it can also be done with bounding dodger and its a bit easier but it can be done without it. Of course if you just try to spam 3 you will stand no chance against pretty much any class.

Edit: I should note that I use escapist absolution and shadow arts so I’m very resistant to conditions that helps a lot against necros

Offhand Dagger is a mess and Shortbow is mostly for travel but every other weapon has solid play right now. Dare Devil is pretty much the only must-have for most builds. In that sense the thief is fairly well balanced… against average players.

Against skilled players on both sides, the class under performs. It is pretty weak in duels, has lessor skirmish capability (with stealth group exceptions) and is mostly worthless in a zerg. The class is a cannibalistic vulture in competitive play.

To be “balanced” it needs to be restored to its 1v1, dueling strength in skilled play. To me that means reducing AA damage and improving most initiative based skills across the board. This also means reducing passive defensive skills/traits in the game.

Nenshoukarasu.6598:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This has been mentioned time and time again. Thief needs 15 (or 18) initiatives base, low Steal cooldown, and Staff without spec’ing DD. Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

18 init would be way too much baseline, for one, and Trickery will be effectively mandatory so long as ToTC, LA and BT are still used in one trait line with no similar or superior options to any of them in other lines.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

Wat.

You mean the third dodge, amazing cleanse potential on EA or huge additional damage, CV, effectively a second heal from DF, and either an effective immunity to immob/cripple/chill or easily-permanent stealth uptime were not good enough reasons not to take Daredevil?

The only reason to ever drop Daredevil aside from ghost thief is if core trait lines get massively buffed (unlikely), ANet absolutely gores it with aggressive HoT-content nerfs (even more unlikely) or ANet power creeps the next elite spec to the point the thief becomes actually overpowered (also fairly unlikely).

stopped at permanent stealth….
either you haven’t played thief at all or you are just a troll … there is no such thing as permanent stealth.
with d/p you can get a max of 3 stacks stealth (which are ~5s tops because of animation time and so on) after one attack you get a debuff (revealt) which makes you immune to your own stealth. revealt lasts 3s in pve and wvw and 4s in pvp.

oh and before you ask no there is also no perma dodge either.

thief requires the most ammount of playerskill to use. thats not what balance is…
all a thief can do is cap/decap a point and looking for a 2v1 or an enemy on max 50% health.

a thief should be more like an assassin… a 1v1 class … its kinda dumb to have a thief as useless leg man (english isn’t my 1st language dunno if thats the correct translation tho). everyone can win in a 2v1 or against an opponent with 50% health.

You only end up with revealed if you make an attack from being stealthed.

With Bound and D/P, it’s very easy to maintain 100% stealth uptime.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This has been mentioned time and time again. Thief needs 15 (or 18) initiatives base, low Steal cooldown, and Staff without spec’ing DD. Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

18 init would be way too much baseline, for one, and Trickery will be effectively mandatory so long as ToTC, LA and BT are still used in one trait line with no similar or superior options to any of them in other lines.

Trill, Lead, and Bounty don’t need a counter part since they should be the appeal of Trickery. Besides, other than Lead, the other two has alternatives.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

Wat.

You mean the third dodge, amazing cleanse potential on EA or huge additional damage, CV, effectively a second heal from DF, and either an effective immunity to immob/cripple/chill or easily-permanent stealth uptime were not good enough reasons not to take Daredevil?

3rd dodge should be put back in Acro. We had it there before and they should put it back. The other traits are right fit for a Elite Spec so if you like those, you can spec for DD. However, by removing the Staff from DD removes the mandatory aspect of DD. The only reason DD is preferred only because there’s no other Elites out there to choose from. If the Staff is unlinked to DD, many builds can use the Staff without needing for DD especially if DD doesn’t really fit into their build.

The only reason to ever drop Daredevil aside from ghost thief is if core trait lines get massively buffed (unlikely), ANet absolutely gores it with aggressive HoT-content nerfs (even more unlikely) or ANet power creeps the next elite spec to the point the thief becomes actually overpowered (also fairly unlikely).

Or add a new Elite Spec, which is very likely.

Felwal.9618:

Nenshoukarasu.6598:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

[spoiler]

18 init would be way too much baseline, for one, and Trickery will be effectively mandatory so long as ToTC, LA and BT are still used in one trait line with no similar or superior options to any of them in other lines.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

Wat.

You mean the third dodge, amazing cleanse potential on EA or huge additional damage, CV, effectively a second heal from DF, and either an effective immunity to immob/cripple/chill or easily-permanent stealth uptime were not good enough reasons not to take Daredevil?

The only reason to ever drop Daredevil aside from ghost thief is if core trait lines get massively buffed (unlikely), ANet absolutely gores it with aggressive HoT-content nerfs (even more unlikely) or ANet power creeps the next elite spec to the point the thief becomes actually overpowered (also fairly unlikely). [/spoiler]

stopped at permanent stealth….
either you haven’t played thief at all or you are just a troll … there is no such thing as permanent stealth.
with d/p you can get a max of 3 stacks stealth (which are ~5s tops because of animation time and so on) after one attack you get a debuff (revealt) which makes you immune to your own stealth. revealt lasts 3s in pve and wvw and 4s in pvp.

oh and before you ask no there is also no perma dodge either.

thief requires the most ammount of playerskill to use. thats not what balance is…
all a thief can do is cap/decap a point and looking for a 2v1 or an enemy on max 50% health.

a thief should be more like an assassin… a 1v1 class … its kinda dumb to have a thief as useless leg man (english isn’t my 1st language dunno if thats the correct translation tho). everyone can win in a 2v1 or against an opponent with 50% health.

1. As it is now you can actually 1v1 a lot of classes especially in WvW for example rev is pretty easy to deal with same goes for most necros.
2. As for permanent stealth the o ly thing you need to gain perma stealth is shadow arts you need to take both hidden thief and shadows rejuvenation plus make sure you have blinding powder equipped and there you go perma stealth. it can also be done with bounding dodger and its a bit easier but it can be done without it.
3. Of course if you just try to spam 3 you will stand no chance against pretty much any class.

Edit: I should note that I use escapist absolution and shadow arts so I’m very resistant to conditions that helps a lot against necros

1. not really… there are tons of shields, releavs, DoTs and AoEs which makes it extremly difficould to fight with a thief in a 1v1 situation.
as thief you don’t have tons of shields to use or any range advantage and yes we do have 3 dodges and can dodge a bit faster then anyone else but this so called “advantage” doesn’t really compensate and we can’t stay in combat for too long or else we just simply die.

2. even if so… stealth isn’t as op as ppl claim .. especially with the revealt debuff.
once you got a DoT the enemy knows where you are
thief is even the only class that debuffs itself for nothing…
bs is only good from behind and besides that other classes have stronger skills which even require less skill to use.
on top of that if you use stealth you aren’t out of battle and some skills and pets are still targeting and hitting you.

3. fyi i’m useing d/p since that is the only good weapon choice in the current meta …
p/p is garbage sb is a joke ( only good for movement and for pve) …

Straegen.2938:

a.) Offhand Dagger is a mess and Shortbow is mostly for travel but every other weapon has solid play right now. Dare Devil is pretty much the only must-have for most builds. In that sense the thief is fairly well balanced… against average players.

b.) Against skilled players on both sides, the class under performs. It is pretty weak in duels, has lessor skirmish capability (with stealth group exceptions) and is mostly worthless in a zerg. The class is a cannibalistic vulture in competitive play.

c.) To be “balanced” it needs to be restored to its 1v1, dueling strength in skilled play. To me that means reducing AA damage and improving most initiative based skills across the board. This also means reducing passive defensive skills/traits in the game.

a.) can’t agree with that… as a thief you have to be at least 2 times better with it then your opponend with his class in order to win a 1v1… the amount of skill level a thief requires compared to other classes is unreasonably high.

b.) thats true… all those sield spamming and aoe stunning is crippling a thief way too much… it only takes 2-3 hits to kill a thief and he doesn’t have any defense options (you can’t perma dodge like some noobs are trying to use as an argument and stealth isn’t really a defensive option since you can still get hit, are in battle and pets and some skills are still locking on to you)

c.) sounds good to me but does it really help? you have 2 max 3 offensive skills as a thief (counting 1 and the bs as one skill).
i’d like to see at least the self-reveal debuff gone. its nonsense that a thief debuffs itself while no other class is doing so.

so much for “Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.” … 3 dodges… yeah very hard to hit… not…

Then i must say there are also classes which have a reveal skill + in wvwvw there is also a trap which can reveal thiefs. Most Rangers & Warriors are also running taunt nowdays which can lure into hundred blades/Arcing slice what hurts crazy or even insta kill you. There are several skills which are channeled.

Then there is DH who is a hardcounter.

I play all classes and it is a joke now how much work a thief must be done for getting a kill.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This has been mentioned time and time again. Thief needs 15 (or 18) initiatives base, low Steal cooldown, and Staff without spec’ing DD. Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

18 init would be way too much baseline, for one, and Trickery will be effectively mandatory so long as ToTC, LA and BT are still used in one trait line with no similar or superior options to any of them in other lines.

Trill, Lead, and Bounty don’t need a counter part since they should be the appeal of Trickery. Besides, other than Lead, the other two has alternatives.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

Wat.

You mean the third dodge, amazing cleanse potential on EA or huge additional damage, CV, effectively a second heal from DF, and either an effective immunity to immob/cripple/chill or easily-permanent stealth uptime were not good enough reasons not to take Daredevil?

3rd dodge should be put back in Acro. We had it there before and they should put it back. The other traits are right fit for a Elite Spec so if you like those, you can spec for DD. However, by removing the Staff from DD removes the mandatory aspect of DD. The only reason DD is preferred only because there’s no other Elites out there to choose from. If the Staff is unlinked to DD, many builds can use the Staff without needing for DD especially if DD doesn’t really fit into their build.

The only reason to ever drop Daredevil aside from ghost thief is if core trait lines get massively buffed (unlikely), ANet absolutely gores it with aggressive HoT-content nerfs (even more unlikely) or ANet power creeps the next elite spec to the point the thief becomes actually overpowered (also fairly unlikely).

Or add a new Elite Spec, which is very likely.

One would think that the fury access on ToTC which is one of the biggest reasons it’s taken would be in superior form in the trait line literally named Critical Strikes. CS only ends up superior if the thief constantly makes attacks and traits a GM into it. You’re comparing an adept trait with no competition in a utility line to a full investment in CS which is already considered bad in PvP as it is.

LA offers more front-loaded damage than DA as a whole does (or better damage in general unless Executioner is used), and almost as much as CS, and it’s a minor trait in a utility line, so there’s literally zero build investment made.

BT’s boon-breadth removal is difficult to beat anywhere, unless again you also take a deep investment into SA and stealth attacks by using RS, which with the stealth attack ICD is nigh impossible to make work on most builds or against most classes at the moment. So basically, to gain the benefits of Tr, you need to run CS/SA/Acro and still suffer from the initiative penalties of not doing so, no steal cooldown reduction, and no CC play, while also needing to be in combat for an extended period in order to start breaking even rather than getting the benefits on-engage while doing the entire +1 role better because of its gains being on-engage.

Staff is hardly mandatory for Daredevil.

Daredevil has more than one extra dodge due to ET, and Acro didn’t have three raw evades, and Daredevil carries more with CV mixed in as well.

I don’t think any elite spec unless made massively overpowered will phase out Daredevil. Daredevil is too conceptually powerful to be replaceable unless the thief/next elite just ends up being mathematically overpowered.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Eval.2371:

• We lack survivability to deal with aoe cleave. When we are in a big fight we resort to haphazardly dodging to avoid aoe cleave because if we don’t we melt to sheer amount of it.

I think you mean passive survivability because dodging is the active version of it.

The only reliable passive survivability the Thief have is buried in SA and only active when in stealth — yet ArenaNet keeps on adding anti-stealth into the game.

Alternatives can be passive survivability. It could also come in the form of active defenses from skills. The issue I am trying to touch on here is that dodges are primarily what allow us to create space and don’t allow us to be locked down in addition to avoiding damage. We have three mechanic of damage mitigation(dodge, blind, slteath). Two of which are unreliable vs AoE. While other classes multiples that are reliable vs aoe.

The reasonable thing to ask for here is for other classes AoE to both be toned down in radii and damage, but anet seems to thing having aoes the size of two char cars is fine. They also seem to think its ok if they do 10k damage or apply multiple conditions as well. So the only thing we can do is ask for more tools to better do our job.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Eval.2371:

• We lack the ability to indefinitely pressure targets that have an abundance of passive defenses or immunities. Stealth attack? block. Unload spam? invuln, Stack bleed & confusion? resistance.

This is really not about the Thief, rather it’s about those professions. ArenaNet needs to create a window of opportunity against those professions. The constant turtling is not only annoying to play against but as an spectator, it’s also boring to watch.

Totally agree on this point. Sadly anet is instant on not adjusting the unhealthy patterns that are available to some classes and are happy with that. The only other thing we can ask for are tools that allow us counter play to those defenses.

One reason I have taken to using needle trap is that it one of the few damging utililities we have that is unblockable. I think of any class that exists when it comes to an unblockable attack the thief should be at top tier here and in particular when integrating stealth into a build.

The whole idea of an attack from shadows is to take someone by surprise so they can not use those defenses to ward you off.

Quite frankly I believe most, if not all of our Stealth attacks should be unblockable whether inherently or via a trait in SA. This not every attack from stealth, but just those attacks that kick in off the AA when stealthed.

The enemy anticipating such an attack can still dodge, drop aoe or cleave around them.

Thief will never be as threatening as it once was in a 1v1 setting.

At this point, they’ve kittened over the balancing so hard that they can never get back to that point. That is the reality of the situation.

The core that makes the thief class is one of the main reasons why the balancing will continue being kitten. Every single weapon skill will always be balanced around the idea that it is spammable. Therefore, each individual skill will never get proper attention and balance…EVER. They can’t promote proper combo-ing of skills, and if they tried to promote it through increased initiative with reduced skill effectiveness, all it’d do is promote more spamming. The only weapon set with an effective combo-ing component to it is D/P, and we all know the story of D/P.

Steal as a part of the mechanics is kitten too. The entire skill depends far too heavily on traits to be considered good, or even decent on its own.

Thieves are literally locked out of 2 trait-lines when it comes to PvP. You wanna be good? You NEED DD and Trickery. Trickery being forced down your throat to be decent is a joke.

All of that, on top of the fact that classes can literally rotate blocks/invul/dodges/stab/resistance will always and forever make thieves kitten.

Every other class (except thief of course) in the lowest HP tier has access to most, if not all, of the following: protection/aegis/resistance/retaliation/stability (I’m sorry, but daggerstorm stability is a joke). There shouldn’t even be a HP tier…but hey, balance team is kitten, so we have it.

The fairy tale you are wanting, a balanced game that lets thieves be competitive against the other classes is just that…a fairy tale.

DeceiverX.8361:

One would think that the fury access on ToTC which is one of the biggest reasons it’s taken would be in superior form in the trait line literally named Critical Strikes. CS only ends up superior if the thief constantly makes attacks and traits a GM into it. You’re comparing an adept trait with no competition in a utility line to a full investment in CS which is already considered bad in PvP as it is.

Not sure what you’re arguing against since all I’ve said was that there is an alternative to Trill and if one want’s Trill, then they should spec Trick. Which mean, there should be an actual merit for taking Trick and not because it improves the Thief playstyle by lower Steal CD and giving more initiatives, but an actual traits that support a trickster’s playstyle.

LA offers more front-loaded damage than DA as a whole does (or better damage in general unless Executioner is used), and almost as much as CS, and it’s a minor trait in a utility line, so there’s literally zero build investment made.

Like I said, there should be a good reason to take Trick. However, Trick should be a line for utility assistance instead of source of damage. LA can easily be place in DA — but I digress.

BT’s boon-breadth removal is difficult to beat anywhere, unless again you also take a deep investment into SA and stealth attacks by using RS, which with the stealth attack ICD is nigh impossible to make work on most builds or against most classes at the moment. So basically, to gain the benefits of Tr, you need to run CS/SA/Acro and still suffer from the initiative penalties of not doing so, no steal cooldown reduction, and no CC play, while also needing to be in combat for an extended period in order to start breaking even rather than getting the benefits on-engage while doing the entire +1 role better because of its gains being on-engage.

You’re just going on with your stance without considering why we are having this conversation in the first place. Trick or any trait line should not be mandatory. In case for Trick, Steal CDR and +3 init should be removed from the line and be made baseline. The only real reason to spec for Trick is to enhance the Thief’s utilities — IMO Improvisation should be in Trick and swap it with Bewildering Ambush, then Deadly Trapper and Pressuring Strike swap — just as an example. In short, a lot of “trickster” traits should be in Trickery (another example is Trapper’s Respite should be in Trick). Again, I digress.

Staff is hardly mandatory for Daredevil.

It’s more like DD is mandatory to use Staff.

Daredevil has more than one extra dodge due to ET, and Acro didn’t have three raw evades, and Daredevil carries more with CV mixed in as well.

I don’t think any elite spec unless made massively overpowered will phase out Daredevil. Daredevil is too conceptually powerful to be replaceable unless the thief/next elite just ends up being mathematically overpowered.

To be honest, the idea of the 3rd dodge should be a profession ability exclusive to Thieves. We can all agree that a lot of things in DD helps the Thief play better. The fact that when a new Elite Spec rolls in and the 3rd dodge, Unhindered/Bound/Lotus, and Staff rolled out with it will make the new Elite Spec really lame in comparison. Also, it is fairly obvious that the DD is made in the expense of Acro and making the Elite Spec more essential than the Core trait is a sign of a bad decision. They should have made the Core as a solid foundation and the Elite Spec for flavor. The Physical aspect of the DD should have been enough and they should have added the rest to the Core, like giving the 3rd dodge to Acro.

I’m not suggesting to remove these options or that intrinsically they’re poorly implemented; quite the contrary. Tr isn’t replaceable not only due to essential utility, but also because in many cases it just provides the thief with better or similar options to other more depth-focused trait lines.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’m not suggesting to remove these options or that intrinsically they’re poorly implemented; quite the contrary. Tr isn’t replaceable not only due to essential utility, but also because in many cases it just provides the thief with better or similar options to other more depth-focused trait lines.

That shouldn’t be the case. The Thief’s traits needs a big shake up and swapping of traits. There is only one possible optimized build now because that’s how the Dev did it. They made their preferred build and toss everything else on an empty slot that’s why we have traits like Bewildering Ambush in Trick and Improvisation in DA, when they should be swapped. Trickster (trait) should be a minor GM trait taking the slot from LA, then add LA to DA — LA really don’t belong in Trick.

Which is why I said what I said to begin with; ToTC and LA pretty much remove the need for CS. The initiative bonus and utility via BT/Trickster push out Acrobatics and SA’s utility and heavily negate their purpose in terms of defenses, which Daredevil just for the most part totally invalidates.

We could have a thread go on for a hundred pages as to reworking and re-organizing the thief traits in a logical way, and honestly I feel like there are so many differing opinions on what belongs where I think it’s probably for the better to just leave it here :P

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

DeceiverX.8361:

Which is why I said what I said to begin with; ToTC and LA pretty much remove the need for CS. The initiative bonus and utility via BT/Trickster push out Acrobatics and SA’s utility and heavily negate their purpose in terms of defenses, which Daredevil just for the most part totally invalidates.

That’s the problem. A single trait line should not be superseding any trait line, they should be fair option. That’s why LA should not have been in Trickery.

As for Acrobatics, I’ve already addressed the issue and I’m going to repeat it again. Acro should have the 3rd dodge.

As for SA, the problem with it defensively is the Revealed debuff — which should be abolish since it undermines the whole traitline.

Elite Spec should be an optional flavor and should not be a stapled traitline. At this point, the Devs have created something in DD that the Thief really needs that will make their next Elite Spec underwhelming. In order the fix this, they need to give Acro the 3rd dodge and unbind Staff from DD. Unhindered Combatant can very well go in Acro too — they can just combine it with Don’t Stop.

DD is over stuffed with what the Thief really needs so putting them all in a spec that rolls out is — IMO — really stupid decision.

We could have a thread go on for a hundred pages as to reworking and re-organizing the thief traits in a logical way, and honestly I feel like there are so many differing opinions on what belongs where I think it’s probably for the better to just leave it here :P

You’re right, however that’s the whole point of this thread to discuss the differing ideas on how to fix the Thief profession. The first step is to define what exactly the Thief’s role in the game. Second is to define what each trait line should be doing for the Thief. Third is to make the Core specs’ foundation solid and keep the Elite Specs as minor boost on certain build instead of a stapled spec that every Thief should have. This will lay down a very good foundation for the game and it won’t make balancing a total nightmare.

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

That mentality is what got everyone here to begin with though.

Until people step back and look at design-level decisions and stop asking for senseless buffs it’ll only keep getting worse and worse.

DeceiverX.8361:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

That mentality is what got everyone here to begin with though.

Until people step back and look at design-level decisions and stop asking for senseless buffs it’ll only keep getting worse and worse.

You’re part of the problem. You refuse to adapt to today’s game and litter this forum with your extremely wrong biased opinions. You lobby for nerfs on your own class due to the fact you want to win 1v1’s against certain builds using a YOLO d/d signet core thief build.

Should take your own advice mate

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

Thief still has the best mobility, decapping is just a little part of what u can do. If thirf was a good dueler, he could just easily pick up favourable matches or avoid bad matchups/+1 abusing mobility, plus everything it can already do now. Focusing on decaps only is dumb if you can actually 1v1, and as thief you could easily force those 1v1s without any viable counterplay.

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

Thief still has the best mobility, decapping is just a little part of what u can do. If thirf was a good dueler, he could just easily pick up favourable matches or avoid bad matchups/+1 abusing mobility, plus everything it can already do now. Focusing on decaps only is dumb if you can actually 1v1, and as thief you could easily force those 1v1s without any viable counterplay.

Except other classes have enough mobility in HoT to completely negate any attempt from thief to get any decaps. Also whole logic about thief shouldn’t be able to 1v1 because of mobility became moot when revs were introduced.

Shadowstep.6049:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

Thief still has the best mobility, decapping is just a little part of what u can do. If thirf was a good dueler, he could just easily pick up favourable matches or avoid bad matchups/+1 abusing mobility, plus everything it can already do now. Focusing on decaps only is dumb if you can actually 1v1, and as thief you could easily force those 1v1s without any viable counterplay.

Except other classes have enough mobility in HoT to completely negate any attempt from thief to get any decaps. Also whole logic about thief shouldn’t be able to 1v1 because of mobility became moot when revs were introduced.

First of all, as I have said, talking about decaps is sooo dumb in an scenario where thief can properly 1v1. Also, u dont need to decap to take value of a thief pushing an empty node, you can just force someone to contest kt and then stealth and abuse better mobility.
Second, revs are still op, so using it as balance term is inapropiate. Also, thieves have still better mobility and disengage anyway, so if they could 1v1 they would be actually way better than revs cause better pick up, disengage and utility

A few changes to the Acro tree would be nice.

Make Vigorous Recovery a minor trait, and change its functionality to “gain health while under the effects of vigor.” It feels a bit redundant as it is now because of all the vigor you get just from the acro tree minor traits. Swap it out for Expeditious Dodger.

Get rid of the regen boon in Upper Hand, and swap it out for something meaningful. I understand the initiative bit of the trait, but I do not understand how having regen gives you an upper hand on someone. Change the regen to Super Speed(2secs) or Quickness (1-1.5secs) on evade. Make the dodges a little more rewarding since its one of the few defenses that we have.

My main reason for playing GW2 has mostly been WvW with my non-stealth thief. I don’t mind a little bit of stealth, but a build that is completely based on stealth is to me just a way to avoid playing the game. It’s about as exciting as staying on the log-in screen while making “pew pew pew” sounds with my mouth.

I used to be highly effective in WvW zergs with a non-stealth thief. Maybe there’s a way to do that now, but I don’t know what it is. I have little or no interest in classes besides thief. Therefore I have no interest in WvW, formerly my main reason for playing the game.

I only log on for guild missions and new content. I typically go through new content in a week or less, so that leaves guild missions as my main reason for logging on.

I know that wasn’t terribly constructive, but my point is that if they could make a non-stealth thief effective in WvW zergs, I might stop drifting away from the game. I’m certainly not going to spend any more real-life money on the game until that happens, when I could instead invest it in a different game.

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

Thief still has the best mobility, decapping is just a little part of what u can do. If thirf was a good dueler, he could just easily pick up favourable matches or avoid bad matchups/+1 abusing mobility, plus everything it can already do now. Focusing on decaps only is dumb if you can actually 1v1, and as thief you could easily force those 1v1s without any viable counterplay.

1st I don’t thief. I’m a neutral 3rd party who’s interest is strictly game balance. Realize this b/c it’s a key fact.

No the mobility of thief isn’t a big enough advantage in today’s game to justify it’s ineptitude in 1v1’s and skirmishing. The only thing a thief can do in today’s game is Decaps/+1. A team can EASILY shut that down.

You are balancing based on the history of thief not what is presently available. It’s time to drop your bias and realize you really do not have a grasp on what you are talking about.

Thank You.