Guild Wars 2

With shortbow you can get lots of bags in zergs. now people say that’s just tagging you didn’t do anything. actually you need to do a certain percentage of enemy HP to get bags iirc. you can’t just hit and do no damage and still get bags.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/events/I-think-the-tagging-system-ruins-Dynamic-Events

Any bags I get with the shortbow in a zerg is well deserved, it’s not like I just leeched those bags.

Discuss.

You are better off teleporting into a large Zerg with Malice on and using Dagger Storm.

Bows will not give you the damage that DS can.

But however — I love killing Bow Thieves.

I use dagger storm too (though I hear shortbow AA does more damage). But it has a cooldown.

You love killing me in a zerg? Good luck with that, roll backwards, evade shot, evade shot and I’m way behind frontlines :P

Next to SoM/DS combo, SB is our next best bet in a zerg. I suppose you could make an argument for sword #2 popping in and out, but I think SB trumps that.

While you’re probably not going to focus down a specific player and drop them yourself or anything, you can contribute conditions and damage across multiple targets, which sounds helpful to me.

I mean, it’d probably be more dramatically helpful if you could dash in, murder someone, and warp back out without getting gibbed yourself, but us mortals like to contribute as well.

The aoe damage for the auto attack and skils is perfectly reasonable damage. not everyone can be the elitest assassin’s going through perm stealth and picking off people in the enemies rear like some super ninja. Some of us are just normal casual players.

nothing is wrong using SB on zerg fights, i use it at zerg fights, cluster bomb and normaml trick shot with dagger storm should be good enough. include 2 signets too.

well bows are ok when defending but i think when attacking u need somethign with more fire power. trick shot could be faster/higher dmg and cluster bomb could be about 33% faster i think on the fair side. right now i dont see bow a viable weapon in WVW.

this coming from me….a player who chose his first legendary as the dreamer…..so i have a dreamer just sittin gin my inventory not being used….. def not a biased comment here :P

IMO it’s more of a case of other classes being able to do everything a thief can do but better in a Zerg fight.

Archon.6481:

IMO it’s more of a case of other classes being able to do everything a thief can do but better in a Zerg fight.

who throws down blast finishers on a fire/water/lightning field better than a thief? With an organized group, that uses staff eles appropriately (and doesn’t have members randomly dropping light/dark fields when no-one wants them), thieves contribute a lot to group damage output through might buffs, and to group aoe heals. This can be done by other classes…but not as well.

Thieves have very solid answers to CC – the bane of zerglings, and spammable aoe. Both of these together are strong as a part of a zerg. They also have access to more dodges and teleports than anyone, which is very strong when running through aoe…which is half of what a zerg does. By being a part of the stack, you are taking up some of the damage that might be spread around to allies…and by dodging it, it gets done to no-one.

Also shortbows are great on the first pass, but when fighting against scattered opponents, pistol/pistol can be very strong (not as many lootbags). You can single out people with lower health and down them, or unload on downed opponents so they stay down, which helps your team a lot.

I usually start with Dagger storm, then switch to shortbow, and spam the heck out of cluster bomb.

bobross.5034:

Archon.6481:

IMO it’s more of a case of other classes being able to do everything a thief can do but better in a Zerg fight.

who throws down blast finishers on a fire/water/lightning field better than a thief? With an organized group, that uses staff eles appropriately (and doesn’t have members randomly dropping light/dark fields when no-one wants them), thieves contribute a lot to group damage output through might buffs, and to group aoe heals. This can be done by other classes…but not as well.

Thieves have very solid answers to CC – the bane of zerglings, and spammable aoe. Both of these together are strong as a part of a zerg. They also have access to more dodges and teleports than anyone, which is very strong when running through aoe…which is half of what a zerg does. By being a part of the stack, you are taking up some of the damage that might be spread around to allies…and by dodging it, it gets done to no-one.

Also shortbows are great on the first pass, but when fighting against scattered opponents, pistol/pistol can be very strong (not as many lootbags). You can single out people with lower health and down them, or unload on downed opponents so they stay down, which helps your team a lot.

first off im not knocking your comments. just talking with you.

personally i dont know many thieves that wanna go around and be the pre buff b***tch for the zerg. yeah it helps dont get me wrong but its not very gratifying or fun for us to be the blast b**tch .

thieves do have answers for CC but in a very selfish non zerg/group helping way. its called ima go invis and take a break while these condis shake off and i heal up. i ll check you all in a bit. :P when we are invis/shadowsteping away or refuging…. its now 50 vs 49 rather than 50 v 50. or more appropriately 50 v 42 or so.

you do have a good point about dodging some dmg tho that would hit somebody else. but also half the dmg is non limiting….usually AOE dmg stuff laying on ground.

only thing a thief can do to help a zerg is venomshare and pre battle buffing. anything else a thief can do every class can do better. thief is good at 1 v 1. the class was made for that and since we are good at 1 v1 which has no part of this game…yet….we are QQed on and nerfed . yes lol NERFED for somethign that has no relevance on actually gameplay other than nubs who think its a good idea to roam in a WORLD V WORLD environment. if it was spvp (which is thief biased too but another thread topic) ….then i woudl understand but nobody in spvp complains about thieves. go invis? lol plz do ill cap this point thank you very much! escape with shadowsteps? sure thanks now its an uneven fight to the non thief advantage and helps cap nodes faster…. thief is not made for group play. which is fine i enjoy thief for what i get out of it. but i do want group buffs for thief bc they nerfed us too hard in the past.

anyway not griping or knocking what u said. just throwing in another perspective. adios.

EDIT: thief can also daggerstorm in zerg which can be helpful too. so 3 things srry.

I run mesmer and thief depending on my mood, and I alternate between running with my guildies and solo-roaming with both. I got kinda bored of roaming with the thief, and standard d/p builds, so I’ve been trying tanky-acrobatics based builds. Not as great at solo-fights, but great in groups, and still solid dps. In larger group/zerg fights, I find myself doing like 2-3k pbaoe repeatedly, spamming them as I stay on the commander. In my guild trainings (where we try to take on bigger groups just to hone our skills), I stick to our group commander like glue, drop pbaoes around him, and keep the group healed. I use steal to hand out free aoe fury/swiftness and I do like 1-6 k per hit with those cluster-bombs in aoe every 1-2 seconds, all while healing myself with signet of malice. I daggerstorm at some point, which is a nice bonus, and I stay alive till the end. Those are really all the things a good zergling needs to do.

I’m not the star of the show…but really in a zerg, only the commander is. I think my dps is very solid considering my survivability (and I rarely stealth).

The one thing that thieves don’t do well is lots of CC…but really, I’m fine with that. Other classes can take care of the CC, I’ll do dps.

The thing I don’t get about your argument is you seem to want thieves to be useful in a group, and complain about the “selfish” survival tools (as opposed to shouts, banners, etc.), yet when I point out the importance of blast finishers, you maintain that no one wants to play a support role. I’m telling you I can do both well. I get my loot bags, and I enjoy myself.

I can even sneak up on a zerg v zerg battle between the two enemy teams, drop a few cluster-bombs and retreat…then collect the loot bags! There are really so many ways to have fun as a thief.

If you really want to be selfless, you can play scout with perma-stealth. That is a vital role for a zerg…even if there are no lootbags in it.

i think this is a strawman. nobody has ever said to me that SB in the zerg is … bad.

poison field + cluster bomb = area weakness, poison, + damage.

People like to assume that the Thief is bad in a zerg, based on looking at skills, instead of actually playing in a zerg. The Thief shortbow is one of the best AoE weapons in the game, and the Thief is worth playing in a zerg just for that. The Thief is also the only profession that can stealth dolyaks and golems. If you have two Thieves in a zerg, you can have permanently stealth golems, making them a lot more safe to move. Stealth also makes the Thief one of the best profession at reviving. If you use the trait Thrill of the Crime, you can also give 10 seconds of swiftness to allies when moving, or stack fury and might before an attack.

Okay, so if you’re not the ‘assassin’ type, and you like being valued in a zerg or defending/attacking a keep, what is the best thief build to use? Don’t get me wrong, I like badges and bags, but I want the group to know I’m doing my share of the work.

@OP:

I’m not too sure, but I can usually hit someone in WvW 2-4 times and still get credit for a kill, across many classes. Sometimes two shots is fine, other times it doesn’t work. I don’t pretend to understand it.

SoM and DS seems overpowered when it comes to tagging, but I suppose that’s why it’s so awesome, isn’t it?

And whatever happened to running into a zerg and spamming Cluster Bomb on the shortbow?! Best way for a thief to tag things.

Niccolo.1402:

Okay, so if you’re not the ‘assassin’ type, and you like being valued in a zerg or defending/attacking a keep, what is the best thief build to use? Don’t get me wrong, I like badges and bags, but I want the group to know I’m doing my share of the work.

Overall, you want a build that isn’t full berserker, but a nice medium between survivability and damage (leaning more towards damage). Shortbow as your main zerg weapon, and your second weapon set to take out stranglers 1v1. Utilities aren’t that permanent, as you’re going to be switching out skills depending on the situation. But you’ll want good movement, as you’re going to be close to the enemy zerg a lot of the time, with only 900 range. Against an enemy zerg, Caltrops is good for snaring multiple foes down on top of AoE fields, Smoke Screen will keep your allies safe and put blind on foes, and Shadow Refuge can be good for reviving players. When attacking a tower, Scorpion Wire is great for pulling a foe down from a wall, and Venoms are great for snaring that player down. When moving golems or dolyaks, you want all the AoE stealth you can get, meaning Shadow Refuge, Smoke Screen+Cluster Bomb, and Blinding Powder. When it comes to traits, Thrill of the Crime is a must have, and you’ll also want some condition removal. That’s pretty much it.

Kasama.8941:

Niccolo.1402:

Okay, so if you’re not the ‘assassin’ type, and you like being valued in a zerg or defending/attacking a keep, what is the best thief build to use? Don’t get me wrong, I like badges and bags, but I want the group to know I’m doing my share of the work.

Overall, you want a build that isn’t full berserker, but a nice medium between survivability and damage (leaning more towards damage). Shortbow as your main zerg weapon, and your second weapon set to take out stranglers 1v1. Utilities aren’t that permanent, as you’re going to be switching out skills depending on the situation. But you’ll want good movement, as you’re going to be close to the enemy zerg a lot of the time, with only 900 range. Against an enemy zerg, Caltrops is good for snaring multiple foes down on top of AoE fields, Smoke Screen will keep your allies safe and put blind on foes, and Shadow Refuge can be good for reviving players. When attacking a tower, Scorpion Wire is great for pulling a foe down from a wall, and Venoms are great for snaring that player down. When moving golems or dolyaks, you want all the AoE stealth you can get, meaning Shadow Refuge, Smoke Screen+Cluster Bomb, and Blinding Powder. When it comes to traits, Thrill of the Crime is a must have, and you’ll also want some condition removal. That’s pretty much it.

Thanks for the advice. I’m getting there, slowly…

Niccolo.1402:

Okay, so if you’re not the ‘assassin’ type, and you like being valued in a zerg or defending/attacking a keep, what is the best thief build to use? Don’t get me wrong, I like badges and bags, but I want the group to know I’m doing my share of the work.

If you’re doing your share in a zerg then you will 1) be alive throughout the battle, and 2) get lots of badges. The badges mean you are doing damage to a lot of people…No single person in a zerg kills people single-handedly. The point is using numbers and coordination to win.

The only professions that can be massively beneficial to a zerg without getting lots of badges are mesmers (i.e. null field, veil, portal – the thankless skills), and guardians (in a full support class). Everyone else gets loot because they do damage.

The group will absolutely not recognize you as an important component in most cases – this is just because zergs are so chaotic, everyone is just focused on themselves and getting from point A-B alive. A good shadow-refuge res on a commander can’t hurt for your personal recognition though. Otherwise, just stay tight to the commander as much as possible, and you’ll look like a solid player.

Mainly don’t die, and no one will have a problem with you. They may still all believe that thieves are aweful in zergs…but that’s an issue of perspective. Glass cannon d/p thieves suck as part of zergs, but we are smart adaptive people, right? We don’t bring the cookie cutter troll build into a setting where it doesn’t belong, right?

Niccolo.1402:

Okay, so if you’re not the ‘assassin’ type, and you like being valued in a zerg or defending/attacking a keep, what is the best thief build to use? Don’t get me wrong, I like badges and bags, but I want the group to know I’m doing my share of the work.

If you’re doing your share in a zerg then you will 1) be alive throughout the battle, and 2) get lots of badges. The badges mean you are doing damage to a lot of people…No single person in a zerg kills people single-handedly. The point is using numbers and coordination to win.

The only professions that can be massively beneficial to a zerg without getting lots of badges are mesmers (i.e. null field, veil, portal – the thankless skills), and guardians (in a full support class). Everyone else gets loot because they do damage.

The group will absolutely not recognize you as an important component in most cases – this is just because zergs are so chaotic, everyone is just focused on themselves and getting from point A-B alive. A good shadow-refuge res on a commander can’t hurt for your personal recognition though. Otherwise, just stay tight to the commander as much as possible, and you’ll look like a solid player.

Mainly don’t die, and no one will have a problem with you. They may still all believe that thieves are aweful in zergs…but that’s an issue of perspective. Glass cannon d/p thieves suck as part of zergs, but we are smart adaptive people, right? We don’t bring the cookie cutter troll build into a setting where it doesn’t belong, right?

One more thing – I haven’t tried venom share in a zerg much, but do the math, and this may be one way to make a big difference that won’t be reflected in loot bags (though you still get loot bags). Each application of spider venom gives 6 life-steals – which are 400 dmg and 600-700 healing. With venom share – you’re giving that to 5 people other than yourself. So thats 6×6×400 damage = 14.4k damage and 6×6×600 healing = 21.6k healing. Not too bad for an instant skill that also gives aoe might and condition effects, and depending on your build, you will have access to maybe 3 of them on decent cooldowns.

i dont think SB is bad ….its on of our better tools for zerging…however that said…its also not on par with anyone else aoe skills for zerging

Travlane.5948:

i dont think SB is bad ….its on of our better tools for zerging…however that said…its also not on par with anyone else aoe skills for zerging

Yeah I mean… who doesn’t want 30k AoE healing + AoE might (and other buffs) stacking to ridiculous durations + 6-8k clusterbombs + 2k+ trickshots bouncing on 3 targets (total of 6k damage each shot of autoattack).

Yeah not even CLOSE to “anyone else aoe skills for zerging”.

Right. 4-6k crits from cluster bombs are nothing. Yeah.

The only disadvantage thieves have is a lack of stability. But as long as your timing dagger storm right and your group comp is built well you should be fine. (also steal from a mesmer every chance you get) You can make up the rest with your build.

With the right spec/gear you can fight well within melee range to be spamming cluster at your feet and hitting full aoe cap each go. The damage you dish out is matched by no other class. Keep in mind the true advantage to the blast finisher isnt ‘pre-stacking’ might before an encounter but all the aoe finishes you get mid fight buffing/debuffing the group around you.

Unless of course your talking about blobing megazorgs then why even ask? any class/weap would do. But even then trick shot is the best auto attack in the game so in skill lag your still winning the fight with that pro 1 spam.

rmBossa.4621:

The only disadvantage thieves have is a lack of stability. But as long as your timing dagger storm right and your group comp is built well you should be fine. (also steal from a mesmer every chance you get) You can make up the rest with your build.

With the right spec/gear you can fight well within melee range to be spamming cluster at your feet and hitting full aoe cap each go. The damage you dish out is matched by no other class. Keep in mind the true advantage to the blast finisher isnt ‘pre-stacking’ might before an encounter but all the aoe finishes you get mid fight buffing/debuffing the group around you.

Unless of course your talking about blobing megazorgs then why even ask? any class/weap would do. But even then trick shot is the best auto attack in the game so in skill lag your still winning the fight with that pro 1 spam.

Is trickshot really the best auto attack in the game? I thought guardian staff AA is better? And besides isn’t it the same thing as ranger axe AA?

Short bow in a zerg is pretty strong, at least if the zerg is organized. Cluster Bomb is the best blast finisher in the game, and we can spam it! You can heal or buff your zerg while weaken the enemy zerg and on top of that deal tons of damage! Just learn the combo fields and finishers and you’ll be a huge asset to the zerg

Tonikor.5637:

Travlane.5948:

i dont think SB is bad ….its on of our better tools for zerging…however that said…its also not on par with anyone else aoe skills for zerging

Yeah I mean… who doesn’t want 30k AoE healing + AoE might (and other buffs) stacking to ridiculous durations + 6-8k clusterbombs + 2k+ trickshots bouncing on 3 targets (total of 6k damage each shot of autoattack).

Yeah not even CLOSE to “anyone else aoe skills for zerging”.

8k clusterbombs? so ur running 10.8k hp? :P wow. ballsy lol. anyway yeah you can do 4500-5500 with clusters in a zerk build…not 8k ….or atleast not without 25 might 25 bloodlust 5% dmg buff on potion and 2 foods buffing power and vulnerability stacks etc.

yes the healing is nice but 90% of the time fields are being over cast by others and unusable. in a perfect world i would agree. in tower defense i would agree. but not in a zerg v zerg fight. dont get me wrong…cluster bomb at 1200 used to be usable. but 900 range AND slow is too risky.

and usually 1500-1600 trick shots. that is with a zerk thief running 15k hp. i mean i guess u could do 2k but not without tossing all HP away. just curious what build are u runnign for this? any videos?

When a commander calls for water fields and blast combos, they will definitely notice a lack of thieves using shortbows. Occasionally I run without a shortbow in WvW and you can it is noticeably obvious when a zerg is missing that clusterbomb blast finisher. I run a 0/30/0/20/20 build most nights for a balance of damage and survivability (Soldier armour/Berserker trinkets) specifically tailored to supporting a squad with high initiative regen/clusterbomb blast finishers. I’d never use it for roaming though.

I forgot to mention that in massive 3 way battles, skill lag kills clusterbomb reliability for me. Not much anyone can do in those situations besides spray and pray

I suppose the issue is more with running a thief in a zerg than running a shortbow in a zerg. Thieves generally have shorter range on their ranged weapons, and they rely on melee attacks to do the most damage. Problem is, they also have no protection, very low health, and most of their defenses come from blinds and evades, which leaves the thief open to being swarmed. They can contribute meaningfully to melee trains, though.

That said, the Shortbow seems like a logical choice for a zerg fight. The bouncing projectile does relatively high damage while tagging multiple enemies. The cluster bomb can spam a blast finisher as well as do an AoE attack or a highly dispersed ran on enemies. The evade shot is decent for escapes and defending yourself from a zerg. The poison shot can poison people and also spam weakness in an area. The shadow shot is a good movement and escape skill.

Considering the alternative is lolpistol, the shortbow definitely wins. There are several things a thief can contribute to a mindless zerg. One of my favorites is scorpion wire, which is really useful for yanking an enemy right into your frontline, killing them very quickly.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I suppose the issue is more with running a thief in a zerg than running a shortbow in a zerg. Thieves generally have shorter range on their ranged weapons, and they rely on melee attacks to do the most damage. Problem is, they also have no protection, very low health, and most of their defenses come from blinds and evades, which leaves the thief open to being swarmed. They can contribute meaningfully to melee trains, though.

That said, the Shortbow seems like a logical choice for a zerg fight. The bouncing projectile does relatively high damage while tagging multiple enemies. The cluster bomb can spam a blast finisher as well as do an AoE attack or a highly dispersed ran on enemies. The evade shot is decent for escapes and defending yourself from a zerg. The poison shot can poison people and also spam weakness in an area. The shadow shot is a good movement and escape skill.

Considering the alternative is lolpistol, the shortbow definitely wins. There are several things a thief can contribute to a mindless zerg. One of my favorites is scorpion wire, which is really useful for yanking an enemy right into your frontline, killing them very quickly.

yes even it is not a consistent skill still is fun pulling people down from tower walls, but i do sometimes say GET OVER HERE, fun times.

I don’t have much experience in WvW yet, but in my short life as a thief I can say that SB is very useful for zerging, or at least just for the beginning of the fight.
I’m a thief so I know which cards I can play: I’m squishy, I wear medium armor, so I can’t rush into battle on the front line. Instead I’m always on the middle/back of the zerg using SB, creating poison fields, using cluster bombs and rezzing people if needed. When the zerg begin to scatter, It’s my time to shine. I flank the enemy forces, looking for people out of the group or just unaware of the danger, and I try to burst them. I think that is my role and I don’t want to fulfill another one because I know which class I chose.