Guild Wars 2

we suck at PVE,

and they dont want us in their group most of the time (they hate us in their group)

we excel at world vs world,

and they want to nerf our damage and such (they still hate us in WvWvW)

now, if we are nerfed on two occassions, what will be left from us?
(no matter what occassion whether PvE or PvP or WvWvW they still hate us)

It’s simple. Some people wont be happy until thief is removed from the game, or the profession becomes completely useless and becomes a free kill.

I play a thief myself. But even I hate other thieves sometimes due to culling keeping them hidden on screen for another 1-2 seconds, or the perma-evade build that you cant land a single hit on… And I read about timing back to back CnD’s (which, I assume might also be an issue due to culling), so I could see how that’s an issue.

IMO, until those things are fixed, people will whine about thieves. The people who whine afterwards, will be the ones who fall into the group I mentioned above. :/

the wvw whining threads will never end.
and because of that, nerfs won’t stop either.
at some point we will have to choose: to roll something else or emo quit.

the only thing i care about is PvE, when this will be taken from me, i will move on to the next game. Grinding Wars 2 (roll a 2nd class) is just not my thing …

Some people will always whine bout thieves/sins and will forever and ever in any game.
I personally don’t love the stealth mechanic in this game, i’m more for a classic one;
tou i goto admit is kinda original. I think that balancin things without ruinin this class will take a really good work, unless totally redesignin the stealth mechanic and thieves base stats.
We go to admit it’s kind of annoyin fightin some thieves continuosly poppin in and out of stealth ( regeneratin health in the while and gainin might) and doin hard damage.
Cullin and renderin in this game made me lol firt times, now i believe is really ruinin the RvR part of the game, and thieves take a lot of advantage from this particular issue.

Regards !
Sorry for grammar mistakes

thieves do not suck in PvE any more then engineers suck in PvE

i regularly run dungeons with my guild and i’ve never had any problems with any thieves that go with us.

i think that a lot of the problems with thieves in PvE is they try to play their class like they would in PvP. thieves are godlike in WvW, but in pve only OK, this frustrates a lot of people when they don’t know that you have to change your play style (or refuse to change their play style) when running dungeons or other higher level PvE content.

I play a thief and a ranger, If you have no clue why people complain about thieves, then you have no clue how balance works in games.

High Damage/High Mobility/Stealth combination (with a crap ton of defense and heals in this game) will always be overpowered in every game you have that combination.

The fact that you get the other things now is what makes Thieves really over the top.

Now i could somewhat understand if the class required a high skill cap, But it doesn’t…..It requires the least amount of skill in the game to be successful at….

But don’t worry, I highly doubt they’ll nerf you.. so you’re safe on that front…

nevertheless, if people claim that thieves has a lot of survivability and such, mobility and such, why do people discriminate thieves in dungeon also?

it has a seemingly disconnect between two occassions, and in both instances thieves are unwanted

I play a Thief and a Mesmer and Thieves are fine. My Mesmer is much more powerful than my Thief. I get one person down on my thief and spend all my effort trying to stomp them. I get one person down on my Mesmer and I pray that 4 people try to rez and then blow them all to hell. People just complain because Thieves can bail on a fight most of the time (design decision – deal with it). My mesmer can’t run away as well but I can re-engage very quickly even with low health and be extremely dangerous each time. Different flavors.

Bads complain and always will. Yes, there are some specs that have a low skillcap (trollspec – P/D + SB) but others are much higher. The most complained about spec (glass cannon) is by far the weakest of the viable specs so that tells you something.

People will complain regardless you can’t satisfy everyone. Nerfs for thieves stopped in november since then its been minor buffs to some traits or skills that’s about it. Most of the arguments made for or against how the thief works are usually the same people arguing anyway with the same posters. I probably have 20-30 posts in Xsorus nerf stealth thread in the WvW forums.

Myself personally am fine with how a thief works and yes I play one. This is a forum for discussion so you pick your stance on whatever the topic is and discuss it. Its up to the devs what they do with that feedback. When asked what was the last class on watchlist it was d/d elementalists. Even though thief was mentioned in that same question to Devs.

Some people will lead you to believe that stealth and thieves are the number 1 problem with WvW. When its not the number 1 issue, things like keeping the matchups fresh, people don’t like the glicko system, move away from zerging, transfers, rewards and incentives for WvW. Those are the number 1 issues with WvW which is why the devs have recently been making posts about what they plan to do to fix those things. Of course culling is the other big one which is not a thief ability just something that benefits thieves but its not like any of us know if we are culling to the people we are fighting or not I never even think about if I am culling to be honest.

People would rather whine than to learn to counter. I am one of the few people in my guild that can consistently beat other thieves. Everyone else just whines. “Omg, they need to nerf stealth”, “Omg thieves are so annoying”. It will never end.

are you meaning that the unlisted thieves guild casting time from 1s to 1 and 1/2 seconds is not a nerf ? well, i saw that. the “tweaks” are not posted
they exist even if they deny it
HiS cast was more than 1 second at one time (1 and 1/4, then 1 and 1/2, resting now at 1 second). Same as other “skills”. (at that time i died countless times because of a slow heal cast)
i may be an idiot, but i am not blind.

Xsorus.2507:

I play a thief and a ranger, If you have no clue why people complain about thieves, then you have no clue how balance works in games.

High Damage/High Mobility/Stealth combination (with a crap ton of defense and heals in this game) will always be overpowered in every game you have that combination.

The fact that you get the other things now is what makes Thieves really over the top.

Now i could somewhat understand if the class required a high skill cap, But it doesn’t…..It requires the least amount of skill in the game to be successful at….

But don’t worry, I highly doubt they’ll nerf you.. so you’re safe on that front…

^ ^ ^ This is why. I appreciate that Xsorus is actually honest about a class he plays likely needing a nerf.

oZii.2864:

People will complain regardless you can’t satisfy everyone. Nerfs for thieves stopped in november since then its been minor buffs to some traits or skills that’s about it. Most of the arguments made for or against how the thief works are usually the same people arguing anyway with the same posters. I probably have 20-30 posts in Xsorus nerf stealth thread in the WvW forums.

Myself personally am fine with how a thief works and yes I play one. This is a forum for discussion so you pick your stance on whatever the topic is and discuss it. Its up to the devs what they do with that feedback. When asked what was the last class on watchlist it was d/d elementalists. Even though thief was mentioned in that same question to Devs.

Some people will lead you to believe that stealth and thieves are the number 1 problem with WvW. When its not the number 1 issue, things like keeping the matchups fresh, people don’t like the glicko system, move away from zerging, transfers, rewards and incentives for WvW. Those are the number 1 issues with WvW which is why the devs have recently been making posts about what they plan to do to fix those things. Of course culling is the other big one which is not a thief ability just something that benefits thieves but its not like any of us know if we are culling to the people we are fighting or not I never even think about if I am culling to be honest.

While Cynical here is right in that there are other bigger problems with WvW, it does not mean the Thief does not need a nerf.

Also, of course he is fine with how thieves work when he plays one. Most people would much rather have their class be OP than UP. This, again, goes back to why I have much more respect for Xsorus than Cynical.

I respect Stiv because he agrees with me!! I bet Stiv totally cares about my respect in a video game. That is why I had to let him know how much I respect him because he is my friend. Rofl

It’s a video game serbent. We aren’t debating taxes and social security.

I have a stance and I stick with it, I also like to debate in the forums (go figure) if they nerf thieves then that’s what they do. I provide my opinion on why I feel it’s fine I’m not going to uninstall if they nerf thieve because I like the game. It’s not as serious as you make it out to be lol.

Grow up

You giving your opinion of who you respect or not is totally irrelevant to the topic.

Big it up! Mad Respec yo!

Then why even post about it buddy, lol.

No one here is saying they are going to uninstall if thieves do/don’t get nerfed. It is however all over the boards that other people are feeling that way about thieves.

It’s a hotly debated class. There is a massive amount of media supporting those saying that thieves likely need a nerf even after culling is fixed. Some of those people play thief as their main. The people, like you, debating the other side, simply say to be “l2p” or make a video where they intentionally play like garbage and don’t even stat/trait for it right or take into account the context being described.

I.E. he has my respect not because he agrees with me but because he is willing to admit to something that could result in a class he plays being made weaker than it currently is while you, on the other hand, selfishly deny that there is anything really wrong with it. Your posts don’t even accept the potential that there’s an issue.

As I’ve said before in my other posts, I personally don’t have problems with most thieves, but I spec specifically to be able to handle them since I roam. I however see all the garbage going on in the rest of the game to other people, then I go test it myself as a thief, and I see that there is quite a bit of validity to those claims and that it’s really easy to do as a thief … took me 5 minutes to practically master the few things we see Thieves doing. Did I get owned 1v1 by actual “pro” thieves? Yes. Did I own “pros” of other classes 1v1 as a Thief after less than an hour of play on the Thief? Yes.

What nerf ?
can you detail

Sebrent.3625:

Then why even post about it buddy, lol.

No one here is saying they are going to uninstall if thieves do/don’t get nerfed. It is however all over the boards that other people are feeling that way about thieves.

It’s a hotly debated class. There is a massive amount of media supporting those saying that thieves likely need a nerf even after culling is fixed. Some of those people play thief as their main. The people, like you, debating the other side, simply say to be “l2p” or make a video where they intentionally play like garbage and don’t even stat/trait for it right or take into account the context being described.

I.E. he has my respect not because he agrees with me but because he is willing to admit to something that could result in a class he plays being made weaker than it currently is while you, on the other hand, selfishly deny that there is anything really wrong with it. Your posts don’t even accept the potential that there’s an issue.

As I’ve said before in my other posts, I personally don’t have problems with most thieves, but I spec specifically to be able to handle them since I roam. I however see all the garbage going on in the rest of the game to other people, then I go test it myself as a thief, and I see that there is quite a bit of validity to those claims and that it’s really easy to do as a thief … took me 5 minutes to practically master the few things we see Thieves doing. Did I get owned 1v1 by actual “pro” thieves? Yes. Did I own “pros” of other classes 1v1 as a Thief after less than an hour of play on the Thief? Yes.

He mains a Ranger not the Thief and Rangers have always been screwed over by their Pets vs C&D. They refuse to make pets stow-able so they need to make it so when a ranger evades, the pet also gets the evade immunity frames. That way a Ranger can still spend endo and have his pet dodge C&D. That is a player skill based solution that would help rangers immensely.

Everyone has an opinion or an angle they are coming from. This game is very easy to create alts with. For every one person with multiple characters who has a 80 full exotic thief and says they need a nerf there are just as many if not more who say they don’t. They also happen to play a Thief along with other professions at end game.

Stiv, there are several videos by the various Thieves that support what people are complaining about. Heck, look at the video by that one warrior of Cynical. The man is teleporting all over the place (good thief sword usage) and stealthing constantly. The fight against the Thief has the warrior constantly swinging at an invisible target. In a game with dodge rolls and other active defenses, you should be able to see your opponent for more than 50% of a fight. Currently thieves can be built so that they are stealthed for more than 50% of a fight. If the target isn’t tanky with either sufficient regen to ignore being plinked away at or retaliation to get the thief to back off then the thief can wear them down.

It goes back to that issue I posted in the other thread. A thief’s enemy is someone who is tanky and/or can sit on their traps/marks. Such an enemy is not a threat to a thief as a tanky build isn’t going to also have good burst and the cc needed to land that burst consistently on a good thief. So you have thieves simply roaming around, testing out targets. If it dies, yay. If it doesn’t, well it’s tanky and you can abort that attempt and find something softer.

For other classes, their “hard counters” are a bit different and more often than not result in their deaths. Heck, look at the boon-heavy builds. Insert a good necromancer and you have a dead boon-heavy build. Look at a non-necro condition build that runs into a necro condition build. Dead non-necro.

I simply wish more people maining as Thief would be as honest about it as I am about Mesmer in the water. Mesmer, when trident clones inflicted confusion, was pretty darn OP in the water. Even with the change to make it bleeds, the Mesmer is still pretty darn OP in the water.

Sebrent.3625:

I simply wish more people maining as Thief would be as honest about it as I am about Mesmer in the water

Accusing people you don’t agree with of being dishonest is supposed to achieve what exactly?

Stiv.1820:

Sebrent.3625:

Then why even post about it buddy, lol.

No one here is saying they are going to uninstall if thieves do/don’t get nerfed. It is however all over the boards that other people are feeling that way about thieves.

It’s a hotly debated class. There is a massive amount of media supporting those saying that thieves likely need a nerf even after culling is fixed. Some of those people play thief as their main. The people, like you, debating the other side, simply say to be “l2p” or make a video where they intentionally play like garbage and don’t even stat/trait for it right or take into account the context being described.

I.E. he has my respect not because he agrees with me but because he is willing to admit to something that could result in a class he plays being made weaker than it currently is while you, on the other hand, selfishly deny that there is anything really wrong with it. Your posts don’t even accept the potential that there’s an issue.

As I’ve said before in my other posts, I personally don’t have problems with most thieves, but I spec specifically to be able to handle them since I roam. I however see all the garbage going on in the rest of the game to other people, then I go test it myself as a thief, and I see that there is quite a bit of validity to those claims and that it’s really easy to do as a thief … took me 5 minutes to practically master the few things we see Thieves doing. Did I get owned 1v1 by actual “pro” thieves? Yes. Did I own “pros” of other classes 1v1 as a Thief after less than an hour of play on the Thief? Yes.

He mains a Ranger not the Thief and Rangers have always been screwed over by their Pets vs C&D. They refuse to make pets stow-able so they need to make it so when a ranger evades, the pet also gets the evade immunity frames. That way a Ranger can still spend endo and have his pet dodge C&D. That is a player skill based solution that would help rangers immensely.

Everyone has an opinion or an angle they are coming from. This game is very easy to create alts with. For every one person with multiple characters who has a 80 full exotic thief and says they need a nerf there are just as many if not more who say they don’t. They also happen to play a Thief along with other professions at end game.

Thieves being overpowered is nothing in relation to Rangers (and C/D vs Ranger pets) that’s a completely separate issue entirely.

I’m actually referring how easy it is to play a Thief vs a Ranger period (not Ranger fighting a Thief for instance)

I can do pretty much everything I can on my ranger, on my thief..But require less effort and skill to do it…and have more survivability on top of it.

I tell you what, Anyone here thinks Thief isn’t overpowered, Go roll a Ranger right now, and do a Full glass cannon video of you playing it.

Come back into this thread, and tell me Thief isn’t a joke to play afterwards.

Rangers suck. They always have. Doesn’t really matter what class you are on. They are bad and get killed by everything.

If anything, ranger needs some improvement from ANet.

Every other class in this game is balanced with maybe exception of bunker ele and that is a borderline issue to me.

I am sorry to say, thief is meant to be a stealth class. ANet designed it so that the thief would blink in and out of stealth during combat. Just like ANet mean for warriors to bull charge/frenzy/HB people down in seconds, etc…

If ANet nerfs stealth (which is the main complain about this profession but also the main defining characteristic) they will need to rework almost the entire class. Traits and other things depend on stealth. Without ready access to stealth the thief “as-is” would become a kitten in wvw and spvp.

Let’s just say they nerf stealth to 6s. Those 3 extra seconds kill the class as is and it would need to be redone.

Not all ranger specs suck, Bunker builds are actually incredibly powerful on a ranger 1v1..

They’re kind of like Thieves in that regard (shadow arts) that you can be beefy.

The difference is Thieves can escape any fight they want with a setup like that, While a Ranger pretty much has to stay and fight.

Glass Cannon Rangers though…let me tell you…BLOW..

Also, your example of warrior is very off. There are viable warriors builds that don’t burst. There are viable warrior builds that don’t use greatsword nor axe.

As Xsorus said, there are good Ranger builds, but the Ranger, when losing, dies. The Thief, when losing, simply finds a new target and kills it instead.

I’ve tested yesterday an P/P glas cannon build in sPvP
Is an build without condition removal except hide in shadows and 1 stun breaker.
Against an Engi i lost half hp from retailation.
It is an reason why we have few viable builds already.
D/D -glas cannon // P/D condition ( 0 acces to aoe ) // S /d direct damage build // D/P direct damage build.
So if thieves are unable to burst down target fast, they must have acces to some form of survaivability.
Now everybody runs with an stun breaker // cond removal // decent armor in wvwvw, so most of thieves are forced to build arround Shadow arts.

Xsorus.2507:

Stiv.1820:

Sebrent.3625:

Then why even post about it buddy, lol.

No one here is saying they are going to uninstall if thieves do/don’t get nerfed. It is however all over the boards that other people are feeling that way about thieves.

It’s a hotly debated class. There is a massive amount of media supporting those saying that thieves likely need a nerf even after culling is fixed. Some of those people play thief as their main. The people, like you, debating the other side, simply say to be “l2p” or make a video where they intentionally play like garbage and don’t even stat/trait for it right or take into account the context being described.

I.E. he has my respect not because he agrees with me but because he is willing to admit to something that could result in a class he plays being made weaker than it currently is while you, on the other hand, selfishly deny that there is anything really wrong with it. Your posts don’t even accept the potential that there’s an issue.

As I’ve said before in my other posts, I personally don’t have problems with most thieves, but I spec specifically to be able to handle them since I roam. I however see all the garbage going on in the rest of the game to other people, then I go test it myself as a thief, and I see that there is quite a bit of validity to those claims and that it’s really easy to do as a thief … took me 5 minutes to practically master the few things we see Thieves doing. Did I get owned 1v1 by actual “pro” thieves? Yes. Did I own “pros” of other classes 1v1 as a Thief after less than an hour of play on the Thief? Yes.

He mains a Ranger not the Thief and Rangers have always been screwed over by their Pets vs C&D. They refuse to make pets stow-able so they need to make it so when a ranger evades, the pet also gets the evade immunity frames. That way a Ranger can still spend endo and have his pet dodge C&D. That is a player skill based solution that would help rangers immensely.

Everyone has an opinion or an angle they are coming from. This game is very easy to create alts with. For every one person with multiple characters who has a 80 full exotic thief and says they need a nerf there are just as many if not more who say they don’t. They also happen to play a Thief along with other professions at end game.

Thieves being overpowered is nothing in relation to Rangers (and C/D vs Ranger pets) that’s a completely separate issue entirely.

I’m actually referring how easy it is to play a Thief vs a Ranger period (not Ranger fighting a Thief for instance)

I can do pretty much everything I can on my ranger, on my thief..But require less effort and skill to do it…and have more survivability on top of it.

I tell you what, Anyone here thinks Thief isn’t overpowered, Go roll a Ranger right now, and do a Full glass cannon video of you playing it.

Come back into this thread, and tell me Thief isn’t a joke to play afterwards.

Ranger is a complete faceroll class. I’ve leveled one, it’s a snorefest. There is also this massive part of the game called PVE, where Thief is the weakest class. gtfo with your pvp bs.

Rangers can do fine. They can have very high mobility which does the same for survivabiltiy as stealth, same goes for d/d ele, stuff like this:

Rangers are just a different play-style and fill a different roll. No you can’t troll in the middle of 30 up-arrow bads on a ranger because they lack stealth. That’s what Thieves do.

Rangers can still be nasty 1 on 1 and are probably better in groups than Thieves. They can be constant ranged pressure that especially set up as glass cannon (with group support).

No, rangers can’t solo as glass cannon because they don’t have the tools. Probably the only viable solo full GC profs are Thief, Mesmer and War. First two have stealth and War has invulns and mobility to complement their insane GC damage.

I really don’t see this game as the type where each char has to balance with the next for each possible playstyle. Some are better than others at specific things. If your goal is to troll 30 bads then Thief is the prof for you. They do it better than anyone with poison arrows and trops. It doesn’t mean it’s OP, that build is completely ignoreable.

1. Rogue archetype.
2. Stealth is lame
3. Gank.
4. kitten

1. Is just inherit.
2. Is understandable.
3. is L2P.
4. Is lol.

Ranger is hard to play? Says who.

Found this little nugget

Despite the intention of making the class as easy-to-understand as possible, the team believes that many first-time Thieves will find themselves dying horribly. Players are used to going toe-to-toe with monsters, and the Thief is built around hopping in-and-out of combat. If you don’t know when to back off, you’re going to die.

They might also have trouble seeing how the Thief fits into Guild Wars 2’s system of making sure each class can fit into any role, from damage to support to tanking.

“We’re making sure he fits in different ways,” says Peters.

The Thief might not be able to tank a creature in the traditional sense, but he can peel a monster away from the group and keep it occupied, or use caltrops to slow a group on incoming enemies. The helpful group buffs obtained by stole items slides him into the support role, while a well-managed Thief should be able to handle doing damage quite readily. They can dictate the pace of battle in Guild Wars 2 like no other.

Designed to be able to dictate the pace of the fight!! That is what thieves are suppose to do, designed to do. I know someone will pick that apart as something changed from when the thief class was announced but regardless it still fits the role they designed it to do. They will always make sure that the thief can dictate the pace of the fight.

Sebrent.3625:

the Ranger, when losing, dies. The Thief, when losing, simply finds a new target and kills it instead.

I think this is the cause of most of the QQ. You have to realize this is a design decision that the thief is based around. Anet has stated it many times. They are to be slippery and get away. People admit that they can own thieves, only if they would stick around. If a change was made so thieves could not get away. They would just be get rolled over and over by every prof because everyone can counter a Thief. Thieves specialize in killing distracted and bad players. If they were forced to stay and fight no matter what, they would loose to every equally skilled player out there unless other changes were made to give them access to immune and protection etc which is just more profession homogenization.

When a thief runs from you, get it in your head that you have won that fight. Who cares if he had to come back from a waypoint or from running out of combat range? Last night I fought an Ele on my Mesmer 1 on 1. The fight lasted a very long time because each time we engaged I’d get him down to 10% and he’d bail. I don’t have the mobility to keep up. I was trying to think of different ways to go about it next round but ended up making a mistake and dying to him after about 5 battles of him engaging then running. I don’t come to the forums and kitten about Ele’s mobility, I consider what happened more positive than negative. I forced him to flee ~5 times. Any of those times I could have gone back to a keep or whatever, I chose to say and fight because it was fun.

It’s a flawed design decision. You know what allows me to beat that good thief? My cooldowns. You know what the thief can do after he escapes? Reset the fight and come back at me quickly before my cooldowns are done or continue the cycle until I simply get sick of him, he gets reinforcements, I make a mistake after “winning” several fights.

It’s bull.

If someone loses a fight on another class, they die. They don’t escape and kill someone else nearby.

QQ more. Game never has and never will be balanced around WvWvW.

Okamakiri.8746:

QQ more. Game never has and never will be balanced around WvWvW.

This happens in sPvP matches too where it is supposed to be balanced. A thief can simply leave the fight. Thankfully, they made it so Thieves can no longer contest points while stealthed.

Also, “so what, it’s never going to be balanced” isn’t really a great answer for people discussing whether something is balanced or not. It’s pretty much you admitting that it isn’t.

Sebrent.3625:

It’s a flawed design decision. You know what allows me to beat that good thief? My cooldowns. You know what the thief can do after he escapes? Reset the fight and come back at me quickly before my cooldowns are done or continue the cycle until I simply get sick of him, he gets reinforcements, I make a mistake after “winning” several fights.

It’s bull.

If someone loses a fight on another class, they die. They don’t escape and kill someone else nearby.

That’s just not true. D/D eles, GS/S+S wars and Mesmers can all reset. Both Ele’s and Engies can spec to be un cc-able with food and having any bunker can’t be stopped from running to safety. The ranger in the vid above outran an Ele as well and near water they are invincible..

If you can’t spec for or have weapon/utility mobility or stealth you aren’t playing a good solo WvW prof. Some profs and specific specs are just more group oriented.

Sebrent.3625:

It’s a flawed design decision. You know what allows me to beat that good thief? My cooldowns. You know what the thief can do after he escapes? Reset the fight and come back at me quickly before my cooldowns are done or continue the cycle until I simply get sick of him, he gets reinforcements, I make a mistake after “winning” several fights.

It’s bull.

If someone loses a fight on another class, they die. They don’t escape and kill someone else nearby.

Who do you roam with in WvW? We are on the same server. Go run around with Amins from Echo squad, Jakeman from GH thats a guardian and a warrior, Schlags from FTF. GLS isn’t on our server anymore he played a warrior and I was fighting a ele one time and I looked over and GLS killed 4 people on his warrior shocked me.

I don’t understand this. If your losing a fight and don’t escape don’t you still die? What is losing a fight to you? Escaping or making the other person flee? Then that is just your definition of loss. I don’t think me and you share the same definition of loss.

I always considered a win as staking but thats just me I guess. There is no ring in WvW, there are no imaginary rules of out of bounds.

You know how you balanced thieves in your version of WvW you make a ring that is 600×600 and you die if you go out of bounds.

For my Mesmer to reset, I have to blow some cooldowns. Often two against fast opponents (most anyone not a mesmer, lol).

Elementalist ride the lightning, blink, mist form. 20+ cooldowns.

Warrior is a different animal, i’ll give you that I can make a warrior pretty darn hard to stop … unless people are spamming cripple/chill/immobilize on him.

Thief simply stealths and is done. Thanks to Shadow Arts, Thief stealths and now they are removing conditions, gained might, healing, and maybe moving +50% speed.

The Warrior and Elementalist have speed but no stealth.
The Mesmer has stealth but no speed.
The Thief has both stealth and speed.

Sebrent.3625:

For my Mesmer to reset, I have to blow some cooldowns. Often two against fast opponents (most anyone not a mesmer, lol).

Elementalist ride the lightning, blink, mist form. 20+ cooldowns.

Warrior is a different animal, i’ll give you that I can make a warrior pretty darn hard to stop … unless people are spamming cripple/chill/immobilize on him.

Thief simply stealths and is done. Thanks to Shadow Arts, Thief stealths and now they are removing conditions, gained might, healing, and maybe moving +50% speed.

The Warrior and Elementalist have speed but no stealth.
The Mesmer has stealth but no speed.
The Thief has both stealth and speed.

Thief cannot simply stealth and juke. Especially not the builds that are mobile like wars and eles. They also have to blow 1 or 2 utilities. Shadowstep and Shadow refuge combined are almost a guaranteed reset but that’s blowing two utilities with long cooldowns. If SR isn’t used with something like Shadow-step it’s easily countered by decent players. Players that don’t blow their knockback right when it’s cast counter it way more often. This also means that neither of these utilities were used offensively to try to actually kill anyone.

Sebrent.3625:

For my Mesmer to reset, I have to blow some cooldowns. Often two against fast opponents (most anyone not a mesmer, lol).

Elementalist ride the lightning, blink, mist form. 20+ cooldowns.

Warrior is a different animal, i’ll give you that I can make a warrior pretty darn hard to stop … unless people are spamming cripple/chill/immobilize on him.

Thief simply stealths and is done. Thanks to Shadow Arts, Thief stealths and now they are removing conditions, gained might, healing, and maybe moving +50% speed.

The Warrior and Elementalist have speed but no stealth.
The Mesmer has stealth but no speed.
The Thief has both stealth and speed.

i would like to comment on this one

warriors have speed and STABILITY but no stealth

elementalist have speed and invulnerability (mist form and ride the lightning)

thief has stealth and speed but no access to reliable stability for running purposes

Sebrent.3625:

For my Mesmer to reset, I have to blow some cooldowns. Often two against fast opponents (most anyone not a mesmer, lol).

Elementalist ride the lightning, blink, mist form. 20+ cooldowns.

Warrior is a different animal, i’ll give you that I can make a warrior pretty darn hard to stop … unless people are spamming cripple/chill/immobilize on him.

Thief simply stealths and is done. Thanks to Shadow Arts, Thief stealths and now they are removing conditions, gained might, healing, and maybe moving +50% speed.

The Warrior and Elementalist have speed but no stealth.
The Mesmer has stealth but no speed.
The Thief has both stealth and speed.

What people keep trying to tell you is that not every class can do what other classes can do. The warrior and ele have speed but no stealth but they have invul’s and stability, and protection. What difference does it make how they got out of combat or reset they did so.

You realize that initiative is like a global cooldown so we aren’t stealthing for free its either we used a utility or we used initiative.

I don’t know why people fuss over the condi removal I call it condition que’s. A p/d vs another thief with stealth condi removal doesn’t really do well or its a draw if the only thing the thief is stacking is bleeds. If that thief is stacking venoms then 1 or 2 of those conditions will stick even if they go in stealth. Usually the bleeds stick and something else. Its the same against other classes with passive condi removals. You are going to be hurting if your only stacking 1 condition but you can kill them much faster if you are stacking more than one since the passive is usually 1 condition.

If Im on my mesmer I get confusion for free for the most part since Im 30 into illusions, then I get cripples and bleeds all free and I am not even specced condi. So anyone with passive condi removal is eating something a cripple, a bleed, confusion something always sticks.

on the other light of the matter,

why did the devs made thief so weak in PvE?

is it to justify that they made thieves powerful in WvWvW or spvp?

its like….

“DEvs: oh im gonna make thieves weak in PvE… but to compensate, i will make them powerful in SpVp and WvWvW” – is this called balancing?

Sebrent.3625:

Okamakiri.8746:

QQ more. Game never has and never will be balanced around WvWvW.

This happens in sPvP matches too where it is supposed to be balanced. A thief can simply leave the fight. Thankfully, they made it so Thieves can no longer contest points while stealthed.

Also, “so what, it’s never going to be balanced” isn’t really a great answer for people discussing whether something is balanced or not. It’s pretty much you admitting that it isn’t.

1. Point of WvWvW is to take objectives, not have 1v1 kitten measuring contests in the middle of fields. Stop worrying about thieves running away from you with their tail tucked between their legs because you just kicked their kitten and worry more about helping your server.

2. If they’re running away in sPvP, it’s even worse than WvWvW, since it’s even more objective based, and making them run away is equivalent to killing them. Again, less kitten swinging, more worrying about the match.

3. I never admitted to it being unbalanced, only you’re claiming that. I don’t see anything unbalanced. If anything, thieves need survival buffs. This coming from someone with several 80s who doesn’t base his opinions on just one very flawed aspect of the game.

4. PVE. It’s a huge part of the game. In fact, it’s much bigger than sPVP and WvWvW put together. Thieves have never been very strong in this department, and the continued nerfs due to PVP whiners have only made them weaker.

+50% speed is in acrobatics not shadow arts.

Most of you stealthy thieves are traited to regain 2 initiative when you stealth. This makes C&D 4 initiative. You regenerate 3 initiative in the 4 seconds you’re stealthed. 4 – 3 = 1 initiative. Not a very high cost. Even if you come out of that after 2.6 seconds it’s only a cost of 2 initiative.

Stability is overrated. You know what people do to someone with stability? Cripple, immobilize, chill.

Elementalist is a bad class to use as an example because ArenaNet has even said that that class is a bit too much at the moment. Notice, they nerfed ride the lightning to be 33% longer cooldown than it was before (15 * 1.33 = 20). Furthermore, you can see the Elementalist when he does mist form so groups usually just follow the mist and kill the few seconds later that the Ele pops out.

Stealth is extremely powerful in that you lose target and can’t follow them either. Add to that the fact that it does so much for the Thief thanks to the Shadow Arts line and it get a bit ridiculous. When it comes to people pushing a Thief out of Shadow Refuge, most thieves are smart enough to dodge roll in their shadow refuge and/or stand behind the enemy that rushes into it to try something. If you don’t, I’m sorry that you fail at successfully using shadow refuge.

@Oka: don’t just jump in without reading. How many times do I have to post that I would be fine with buffing something else the thieves have if that would allow them to be better in PvE while fixing some of the garbage in WvW. I’m well aware of what Thieves can and can’t do.

@Cynical: yes, I know that’s 10 pts in Acrobatics, just wasn’t clear when I typed it. It isn’t very hard to get. Most go even farther dodge roll more which also works wonderfully which dropping caltrops when you dodge roll (yes, I know this is a trait too).

Xsorus.2507:

Thieves being overpowered is nothing in relation to Rangers (and C/D vs Ranger pets) that’s a completely separate issue entirely.

I’m actually referring how easy it is to play a Thief vs a Ranger period (not Ranger fighting a Thief for instance)

I can do pretty much everything I can on my ranger, on my thief..But require less effort and skill to do it…and have more survivability on top of it.

I tell you what, Anyone here thinks Thief isn’t overpowered, Go roll a Ranger right now, and do a Full glass cannon video of you playing it.

Come back into this thread, and tell me Thief isn’t a joke to play afterwards.

Perhaps…ahem….ranger is …….under powered?

thief’s not OP I main both DD ele and D/P thief (I shelved my ranger you know why if you play it). Thief isn’t OP not even close. Most players suck, never carry cc, and refuse to stun break. They run around all glass thinking their the kitten ans get their kitten handed to them by better players, running better builds, and come to the forums complain, whine, kitten, and never take a single word of advice.

Lets cut through the bs. We have weak healing and no protection. Stealth from CnD is an easy counter if its not the initial strike ie precast cnd -> cast steal -> dps chain (stun break to counter). Skills that chain and channel reveal our position more often then not. Our range dps is literally garbage compared to just about everyone else. HP and toughness are laughable.

I am not going to sit here and say the class sucks it doesn’t, but kitten have some perspective. If you played all the classes you would realize every class has something other classes simply can not do (cough…trap ranger…end cough). If we could all do the same exact things why not just have one class?

I will tell you this. The things I pull of on ele in PvE shouldn’t be allowed, but at the same time wheres the burst spike that thief and warriors have ohh right its doesn’t have it and it doesn’t matter (think for a second).

this is the likely story. You come here and complain or go there and complain because you got your kitten handed to you and you felt it was unfair, too fast, and not right in general? so you come hear or go to some other forums kitten and moan some more and never sit back and think for a minute.

Perhaps there is a counter I’m not thinking of?
There is.

Perhaps my build could use some work?
It does.

Perhaps my class isn’t so good as a spike dps?
It isn’t.

Perhaps I’m not good as a spike dps?
Your’e not.

Perhaps I am not good at a tank build?
Your’e not.

Perhaps I am not good at a balanced build?
Your’e not.

Perhaps just maybe I suck at PvP?
Maybe…….

Thief especially glass cannon is an easy counter for anyone who knows what they are doing. If you are getting beat by glass cannon thieves you need to reevaluate what you are doing and what your build is capable of.

Welcome to the conversation, TheGuy. Perhaps you should read some of the other posts before jumping in …

It’s already been stated that we’re well aware that the Thief build has trouble against tanky builds, particularly ones with retal / confusion. I won’t expand on it any more because I’m tired of typing the same things over and over again to a community that can’t or refuses to scroll up and read.

i remember that the devs cant adjust something drastic in PvE because it will affect WvWvW

maybe a split skill would suffice to balance things out?

Sebrent.3625:

Welcome to the conversation, TheGuy. Perhaps you should read some of the other posts before jumping in …

It’s already been stated that we’re well aware that the Thief build has trouble against tanky builds, particularly ones with retal / confusion. I won’t expand on it any more because I’m tired of typing the same things over and over again to a community that can’t or refuses to scroll up and read.

I read it I just didn’t care for your insight considering I run a tanky ele build I deafeat many thieves regularly I can’t imagine saying “Well thats OP” if I win against it regularly wouldn’t you agree? If its the issue with culling fix is coming this month (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/7169/Guild-Wars-2-What-Marchs-WvW-Patch-Will-Bring.html) perhaps you should take the time to read a little bit more instead. Thank You.

retal (self healing counter + S/D boon rip if possible) confusion (heal condition in stealth) is another story running 30 in shadow arts can help dampen that blow or negate it all together.

edit: to be more precise you comments see to center around because thieves who are smart can counter an anti thief maneuver its unfair. Any one who take that perspective its really imho someone who should speak with much self importance on balance. Everything can be countered the better the player you are the more likely you are to counter thing to counter you. Do you understand? there is no " I counter so I win button" there are simply good and bad players read the question list and evaluate.

@Oldgrimm.8521

Due to food bonuses, guild bonuses world bonuses, skills like confusion, ele healing, guardian boons, etc etc and the naturally unbalanced environment that is WvW add in the upcoming ranks which will further separate players due to the passive bonus system this is unlikely to happen and a bad idea.

Sebrent.3625:

Stealth is extremely powerful in that you lose target and can’t follow them either. Add to that the fact that it does so much for the Thief thanks to the Shadow Arts line and it get a bit ridiculous. When it comes to people pushing a Thief out of Shadow Refuge, most thieves are smart enough to dodge roll in their shadow refuge and/or stand behind the enemy that rushes into it to try something. If you don’t, I’m sorry that you fail at successfully using shadow refuge.

Why do you think I said not to blow the knockback right away? If a player with KB is next to a SR the only thing a thief can do is evade. Most KB’s don’t have any sort of animation you could react to. It’s a guess and most will blow their two evades right away. You knock them out during the 3rd second ftw. It’s even better if you stand at one edge and auto attack/aoe that spot and you have a good bet the thief is not on that side of the circle.

My personal favorite on my memser when their SR far away from me is to fire up GS#5 then blink to the refuge so that the KB hits instantly when I teleport (similar to C&D+Steal). 90% of the time, it works every time.

Also regarding the 2 init back on stealth, that’s trollspecing. Blind and con remove on stealth are much more powerful. Healing in stealth is mandatory.

Oldgrimm.8521:

i remember that the devs cant adjust something drastic in PvE because it will affect WvWvW

maybe a split skill would suffice to balance things out?

Oldgrimm, I think this would be a quick and easy solution that has the potential to bite everyone in the butt later on down the road as then they would have a larger base to try to balance. It’s more things to maintain, juggle, etc.. It does remove the dependencies on each other though.

Honestly, I think Thief needs to be given some more tricks and some of their stealth tweaked.

Heck, engineer was changed because they could perma-stealth with their smoke field and mine kit (back when it was a kit) or bomb kit … yet ArenaNet is allowing thieves to do it now several months later. That doesn’t sit right with me.

Once culling is fixed we’ll see where the thief land’s itself. As of now most complaints come from wvw and extend from this issue. As of now thief is fairly strong in wvw but underplayed in top level pvp (where there is no culling), just remember that A-net usually balances around pvp, so keep that in mind.

Oldgrimm.8521:

i remember that the devs cant adjust something drastic in PvE because it will affect WvWvW

maybe a split skill would suffice to balance things out?

If only they applied that logic vice versa as well. So many PVP triggered nerfs ruining the PVE side of the game since release. And Thief isn’t the only victim of this either, but certainly feels like the biggest.