Guild Wars 2

Sebrent.3625:

Heck, engineer was changed because they could perma-stealth with their smoke field and mine kit (back when it was a kit) or bomb kit … yet ArenaNet is allowing thieves to do it now several months later. That doesn’t sit right with me.

It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t sit right with you. Thief is meant to be a stealth based class, engineer isn’t.

Stiv.1820:

Most KB’s don’t have any sort of animation you could react to. It’s a guess and most will blow their two evades right away.

Well, my thief should just use his longbow knockback, I guess, lol.
My mesmer’s focus is great for this, it doesn’t have an animation, but the greatsword most definitely does as do most other knockback skills i.e. hammer warrior spins.

Stiv.1820:

You knock them out during the 3rd second ftw. It’s even better if you stand at one edge and auto attack/aoe that spot and you have a good bet the thief is not on that side of the circle.

Why would I wait for the 3rd second? They’re gaining might and initiative on each tick, healing while stealthed, and removing conditions while stealthed. I knock them out ASAp if I have focus. Greatsword, it’s hit or miss. They can easily dodge.

Stiv.1820:

My personal favorite on my memser when their SR far away from me is to fire up GS#5 then blink to the refuge so that the KB hits instantly when I teleport (similar to C&D+Steal). 90% of the time, it works every time.

That’s awesome … some of us already blew our blink when they jumped us with basilisk venom since the other options result in us eating backstab and other nastiness in the rear.

Stiv.1820:

Also regarding the 2 init back on stealth, that’s trollspecing. Blind and con remove on stealth are much more powerful. Healing in stealth is mandatory.

It’s not just trollspecing. I’ve seen people with tons of toughness but not much healing and no reliable retaliation/confusion get whittled down by this crap.

Okamakiri.8746:

Sebrent.3625:

Heck, engineer was changed because they could perma-stealth with their smoke field and mine kit (back when it was a kit) or bomb kit … yet ArenaNet is allowing thieves to do it now several months later. That doesn’t sit right with me.

It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t sit right with you. Thief is meant to be a stealth based class, engineer isn’t.

They removed it because they didn’t want perma-stealth in the game. That was their stance during beta. Here we are several months later with Thieves with perma-stealth.

They didn’t want people with perma-stealth, they wanted a dynamic stealth used when fighting … well … lol.

If you were actually around during beta and took part in finding bugs, reading patch notes, and providing feedback then you would know these things.

Sebrent.3625:

Okamakiri.8746:

Sebrent.3625:

Heck, engineer was changed because they could perma-stealth with their smoke field and mine kit (back when it was a kit) or bomb kit … yet ArenaNet is allowing thieves to do it now several months later. That doesn’t sit right with me.

It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t sit right with you. Thief is meant to be a stealth based class, engineer isn’t.

They removed it because they didn’t want perma-stealth in the game. That was their stance during beta. Here we are several months later with Thieves with perma-stealth.

They didn’t want people with perma-stealth, they wanted a dynamic stealth used when fighting … well … lol.

If you were actually around during beta and took part in finding bugs, reading patch notes, and providing feedback then you would know these things.

I’ve been with the game since BE1. Nice try at discrediting people who don’t agree with your bs.

Perma stealth is a myth. The closest thing you can get is CnDing after letting stealth run out on its own. With talents, that’s 4s after every CnD. So “perma stealth” = CnD every 4s, which requires having both initiative and a target to land it on. Outside of culling bug (which is getting fixed in next patch) that never has and never will be perma stealth. There are other tricks that can grant you extended stealth by chaining some utility cooldowns together, but it’s still far from perma stealth.

If you played a thief, you would know these things.

Anet needs to just turn thieves into engi and shut everyone up

Sebrent.3625:

Stiv.1820:

Most KB’s don’t have any sort of animation you could react to. It’s a guess and most will blow their two evades right away.

Well, my thief should just use his longbow knockback, I guess, lol.
My mesmer’s focus is great for this, it doesn’t have an animation, but the greatsword most definitely does as do most other knockback skills i.e. hammer warrior spins.

Stiv.1820:

You knock them out during the 3rd second ftw. It’s even better if you stand at one edge and auto attack/aoe that spot and you have a good bet the thief is not on that side of the circle.

Why would I wait for the 3rd second? They’re gaining might and initiative on each tick, healing while stealthed, and removing conditions while stealthed. I knock them out ASAp if I have focus. Greatsword, it’s hit or miss. They can easily dodge.

Stiv.1820:

My personal favorite on my memser when their SR far away from me is to fire up GS#5 then blink to the refuge so that the KB hits instantly when I teleport (similar to C&D+Steal). 90% of the time, it works every time.

That’s awesome … some of us already blew our blink when they jumped us with basilisk venom since the other options result in us eating backstab and other nastiness in the rear.

Stiv.1820:

Also regarding the 2 init back on stealth, that’s trollspecing. Blind and con remove on stealth are much more powerful. Healing in stealth is mandatory.

It’s not just trollspecing. I’ve seen people with tons of toughness but not much healing and no reliable retaliation/confusion get whittled down by this crap.

1. Thief vs Thief who cares. Many thieves will still evade regardless to avoid normal damage, you know, because they take all of it while in stealth. GC wars can just GS3 thru the refuge and straight up murder a injured Thief if they aren’t spamming evades.

2. Because them getting another couple init and 700 more health and being knocked out is much better than you being predicable and trying to knock back instantly, getting evaded and giving them the full duration?

3. Not sure what your build is but for me, Decoy/Distortion/Torch#4/BF can all counter thief burst as well as blink.

4. I say it’s trollspecing because it’s not as good as the other options and is only good for spamming C&D or for D/P perma stealth trolls. Everyone says thieves heal in stealth, remove conditions and blind, they can’t have this too. You have to make a hard choice to run that trait and it weakens them against the players who don’t die to C&D’s DPS over 30 seconds. I would wager anyone that I could kill in trollspec I would be able to kill with any spec. No offense to that toughness dude…

Okamakiri.8746:

Xsorus.2507:

Stiv.1820:

Sebrent.3625:

Then why even post about it buddy, lol.

No one here is saying they are going to uninstall if thieves do/don’t get nerfed. It is however all over the boards that other people are feeling that way about thieves.

It’s a hotly debated class. There is a massive amount of media supporting those saying that thieves likely need a nerf even after culling is fixed. Some of those people play thief as their main. The people, like you, debating the other side, simply say to be “l2p” or make a video where they intentionally play like garbage and don’t even stat/trait for it right or take into account the context being described.

I.E. he has my respect not because he agrees with me but because he is willing to admit to something that could result in a class he plays being made weaker than it currently is while you, on the other hand, selfishly deny that there is anything really wrong with it. Your posts don’t even accept the potential that there’s an issue.

As I’ve said before in my other posts, I personally don’t have problems with most thieves, but I spec specifically to be able to handle them since I roam. I however see all the garbage going on in the rest of the game to other people, then I go test it myself as a thief, and I see that there is quite a bit of validity to those claims and that it’s really easy to do as a thief … took me 5 minutes to practically master the few things we see Thieves doing. Did I get owned 1v1 by actual “pro” thieves? Yes. Did I own “pros” of other classes 1v1 as a Thief after less than an hour of play on the Thief? Yes.

He mains a Ranger not the Thief and Rangers have always been screwed over by their Pets vs C&D. They refuse to make pets stow-able so they need to make it so when a ranger evades, the pet also gets the evade immunity frames. That way a Ranger can still spend endo and have his pet dodge C&D. That is a player skill based solution that would help rangers immensely.

Everyone has an opinion or an angle they are coming from. This game is very easy to create alts with. For every one person with multiple characters who has a 80 full exotic thief and says they need a nerf there are just as many if not more who say they don’t. They also happen to play a Thief along with other professions at end game.

Thieves being overpowered is nothing in relation to Rangers (and C/D vs Ranger pets) that’s a completely separate issue entirely.

I’m actually referring how easy it is to play a Thief vs a Ranger period (not Ranger fighting a Thief for instance)

I can do pretty much everything I can on my ranger, on my thief..But require less effort and skill to do it…and have more survivability on top of it.

I tell you what, Anyone here thinks Thief isn’t overpowered, Go roll a Ranger right now, and do a Full glass cannon video of you playing it.

Come back into this thread, and tell me Thief isn’t a joke to play afterwards.

Ranger is a complete faceroll class. I’ve leveled one, it’s a snorefest. There is also this massive part of the game called PVE, where Thief is the weakest class. gtfo with your pvp bs.

The fact that you think Rangers are a complete faceroll class because you “lvled” one up pretty much tells me everything i need to know about your opinion on the subject.

and Thieves the weakest class in Pve?

Rofl…

i will give you that thieves blow kitten underwater (at least in my opinion)

On land though…No..

Xsorus.2507:

The fact that you think Rangers are a complete faceroll class because you “lvled” one up pretty much tells me everything i need to know about your opinion on the subject.

and Thieves the weakest class in Pve?

Rofl…

i will give you that thieves blow kitten underwater (at least in my opinion)

On land though…No..

Yes, Ranger is a simple class with a low skill cap. Especially in PVE.

But enlighten us, who and why is weaker than thieves in PVE? Particularly high end PVE.

Okamakiri.8746:

I’ve been with the game since BE1. Nice try at discrediting people who don’t agree with your bs.

There is a big difference between beta and BWEs.
There is an even bigger difference between playing in BWEs and participating in bug reports, reading up patch notes, testing them, and providing feedback.

Okamakiri.8746:

Perma stealth is a myth. The closest thing you can get is CnDing after letting stealth run out on its own. With talents, that’s 4s after every CnD. So “perma stealth” = CnD every 4s, which requires having both initiative and a target to land it on. Outside of culling bug (which is getting fixed in next patch) that never has and never will be perma stealth. There are other tricks that can grant you extended stealth by chaining some utility cooldowns together, but it’s still far from perma stealth.

If you played a thief, you would know these things.

Oh really … let’s take a look around then shall we …
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Video-Infinite-Stealth-dagger-pistol-SB/first#post1511492

What was that you said about “if you played thief, you would know these things” … what does this say about you?

Also, if you read the previous posts, mesmer illusions and ranger pets were brought up. Both are trivial targets to continuously cloak and dagger on as are the multitude of NPCs in WvW.

Okamakiri.8746:

Xsorus.2507:

The fact that you think Rangers are a complete faceroll class because you “lvled” one up pretty much tells me everything i need to know about your opinion on the subject.

and Thieves the weakest class in Pve?

Rofl…

i will give you that thieves blow kitten underwater (at least in my opinion)

On land though…No..

Yes, Ranger is a simple class with a low skill cap. Especially in PVE.

But enlighten us, who and why is weaker than thieves in PVE? Particularly high end PVE.

OMG, you want to talk about high-end PVE? What is that exactly? The high level fractals? Do you have even a clue at the issues currently facing Rangers there? Perhaps you should take a look over at Robert Hrouda’s posts (ArenaNet Dev, since I assume you’re ignorant of this as well).

Here’s a glaring one, pet’s dying extremely easily in dungeons because some areas even calling the pet back isn’t sufficient (Ranger controls over the pet are very primitive).

Pets having no Agony Resistance even though the Ranger does.

Stiv.1820:

The problem with this is I do play another class that I now consider my main (getting any ascended junk I get anyway).

I feel your pain here … I hate getting non-ascended rings now … I only have so many globs, vials, etc. to put into the mystic toilet and magic find at higher levels in fractals is frowned upon and I sure as heck don’t want to be weaker anyways.

Stiv.1820:

Thieves can get away a good amount depending on how conservative they play. If you aren’t dying occasionally on your Thief you aren’t playing it to it’s full potential. Thieves have great mobility and juking with stealth but we aren’t the fastest.

Wait, dying as a class is an indicator of playing it to its full potential? I’m calling shenanigans!

Sebrent.3625:

There is a big difference between beta and BWEs.
There is an even bigger difference between playing in BWEs and participating in bug reports, reading up patch notes, testing them, and providing feedback.

You don’t know anything about me, my experience, what I do for a living or what I did during the beta events. Programmer btw, for many years. I know a thing or two about bugs.

Sebrent.3625:

Oh really … let’s take a look around then shall we …
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Video-Infinite-Stealth-dagger-pistol-SB/first#post1511492

What was that you said about “if you played thief, you would know these things” … what does this say about you?

Also, if you read the previous posts, mesmer illusions and ranger pets were brought up. Both are trivial targets to continuously cloak and dagger on as are the multitude of NPCs in WvW.

Really? That’s your “perma stealth” example? Clearly we’re talking about different things here.

First of all, it is not “perma stealth” in combat. It’s not even “perma” (anything that requires constant active refreshing is not perma). But I do agree that it’s cheesy and lame, and can be game breaking if used right. I wouldn’t have a problem if devs found a way to prevent it (a simple cap on stealth duration would suffice), but seeing how that “utility” is one of few (only?) reasons why anyone would ever want a thief in their dungeon group, some compensation would be required at the same time.

But coming back to what I was saying, in combat “perma stealth” is not possible aside from the culling assisted method that I described. The method that you link does not allow ANY attacking since 1) it ends the stealth immediately, 2) puts a reveal debuff on you.

Btw, if anyone does try using this tactic against you in combat, what exactly are you doing while those clearly visible smoke circles are down with a big “ATTACK HERE” target over them?

Sebrent.3625:

Okamakiri.8746:

Xsorus.2507:

The fact that you think Rangers are a complete faceroll class because you “lvled” one up pretty much tells me everything i need to know about your opinion on the subject.

and Thieves the weakest class in Pve?

Rofl…

i will give you that thieves blow kitten underwater (at least in my opinion)

On land though…No..

Yes, Ranger is a simple class with a low skill cap. Especially in PVE.

But enlighten us, who and why is weaker than thieves in PVE? Particularly high end PVE.

OMG, you want to talk about high-end PVE? What is that exactly? The high level fractals? Do you have even a clue at the issues currently facing Rangers there? Perhaps you should take a look over at Robert Hrouda’s posts (ArenaNet Dev, since I assume you’re ignorant of this as well).

Here’s a glaring one, pet’s dying extremely easily in dungeons because some areas even calling the pet back isn’t sufficient (Ranger controls over the pet are very primitive).

Pets having no Agony Resistance even though the Ranger does.

All pets suck in this game. Ask the Necros if they have any sympathy for the Rangers. But that doesn’t mean that the Ranger is any less useful than the Thief. If you think pets are dieing easily, what do you think is happening to squishy thieves in melee range?

Sebrent.3625:

Wait, dying as a class is an indicator of playing it to its full potential? I’m calling shenanigans!

Sort of. If you never die, why is that? Did you run instead of try to stomp a guy you downed in the middle of a guild group? What if you could have pulled off that stomp? Wouldn’t that have been better? You will never know because you didn’t try. Most of my Thief deaths are from trying to stomp when there are decent players around. Yea I die doing that quite a bit, but the times I pull them off and get away make it much better. Those are the types of memories that cause QQ posts on forums, not playing conservative and running away when you think you might go down.

Okamakiri.8746:

Sebrent.3625:

There is a big difference between beta and BWEs.
There is an even bigger difference between playing in BWEs and participating in bug reports, reading up patch notes, testing them, and providing feedback.

You don’t know anything about me, my experience, what I do for a living or what I did during the beta events. Programmer btw, for many years. I know a thing or two about bugs.

Given how uninformed your answers are on here, you’re probably one of the programmers my group gets fired each year after we show all the holes in your crap for the 20th time.

Okamakiri.8746:

Sebrent.3625:

Oh really … let’s take a look around then shall we …
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Video-Infinite-Stealth-dagger-pistol-SB/first#post1511492

What was that you said about “if you played thief, you would know these things” … what does this say about you?

Also, if you read the previous posts, mesmer illusions and ranger pets were brought up. Both are trivial targets to continuously cloak and dagger on as are the multitude of NPCs in WvW.

Really? That’s your “perma stealth” example? Clearly we’re talking about different things here.

First of all, it is not “perma stealth” in combat. It’s not even “perma” (anything that requires constant active refreshing is not perma). But I do agree that it’s cheesy and lame, and can be game breaking if used right. I wouldn’t have a problem if devs found a way to prevent it (a simple cap on stealth duration would suffice), but seeing how that “utility” is one of few (only?) reasons why anyone would ever want a thief in their dungeon group, some compensation would be required at the same time.

But coming back to what I was saying, in combat “perma stealth” is not possible aside from the culling assisted method that I described. The method that you link does not allow ANY attacking since 1) it ends the stealth immediately, 2) puts a reveal debuff on you.

Btw, if anyone does try using this tactic against you in combat, what exactly are you doing while those clearly visible smoke circles are down with a big “ATTACK HERE” target over them?

That’s exactly the stealth I was talking about with Engineer that ArenaNet said “we don’t want this” and removed. Again, if you had actually taken part in helping the game’s development, you would know this… or if you had even paid attention to the patch notes.

Engineer has never had anything close to C&D or BlackPowder + Heartseeker. While what they were able to do was like BlackPowder + Heartseeker in that it was a combo, they did it with smoke bomb which is on a 25 second cooldown so it was nowhere near what the Thief can do.

Please try harder to make sure you know what is being discussed before you chime in.

Okamakiri.8746:

Sebrent.3625:

Okamakiri.8746:

Xsorus.2507:

The fact that you think Rangers are a complete faceroll class because you “lvled” one up pretty much tells me everything i need to know about your opinion on the subject.

and Thieves the weakest class in Pve?

Rofl…

i will give you that thieves blow kitten underwater (at least in my opinion)

On land though…No..

Yes, Ranger is a simple class with a low skill cap. Especially in PVE.

But enlighten us, who and why is weaker than thieves in PVE? Particularly high end PVE.

OMG, you want to talk about high-end PVE? What is that exactly? The high level fractals? Do you have even a clue at the issues currently facing Rangers there? Perhaps you should take a look over at Robert Hrouda’s posts (ArenaNet Dev, since I assume you’re ignorant of this as well).

Here’s a glaring one, pet’s dying extremely easily in dungeons because some areas even calling the pet back isn’t sufficient (Ranger controls over the pet are very primitive).

Pets having no Agony Resistance even though the Ranger does.

All pets suck in this game. Ask the Necros if they have any sympathy for the Rangers. But that doesn’t mean that the Ranger is any less useful than the Thief. If you think pets are dieing easily, what do you think is happening to squishy thieves in melee range?

Well, the bad thieves die in melee. The good ones make good use of dodge rolls, chain blinding, etc.. Other thieves decide they will use range.

Let me know when Ranger suddenly can change their class mechanic the way a Thief (or any class) changes their weapon sets.

And before you mention “Ranger has ranged pets!”, that doesn’t help against the AOE circles that attack people at range or the projectiles bosses send out at every player and their pet. Not all bosses have only melee skills. Heck, even without talking about bosses, look at the fire circles on the cliffside fractal. The pet isn’t smart enough to stand in that small space so it just dies to the fire.

Stiv.1820:

Sebrent.3625:

Wait, dying as a class is an indicator of playing it to its full potential? I’m calling shenanigans!

Sort of. If you never die, why is that? Did you run instead of try to stomp a guy you downed in the middle of a guild group? What if you could have pulled off that stomp? Wouldn’t that have been better? You will never know because you didn’t try. Most of my Thief deaths are from trying to stomp when there are decent players around. Yea I die doing that quite a bit, but the times I pull them off and get away make it much better. Those are the types of memories that cause QQ posts on forums, not playing conservative and running away when you think you might go down.

Stiv, what you’re talking about is more “pushing your limits” or “testing your luck”. Everyone dies. With thieves it’s usually because they get too aggressive or their escape route ran them into a group of good players.

Whether or not you die is a poor indicator of whether or not you are playing your class to its fullest. If it was a good indicator of this, all those mouthbreathers out there are bloody gurus :-p

Sebrent.3625:

Stiv.1820:

Sebrent.3625:

Wait, dying as a class is an indicator of playing it to its full potential? I’m calling shenanigans!

Sort of. If you never die, why is that? Did you run instead of try to stomp a guy you downed in the middle of a guild group? What if you could have pulled off that stomp? Wouldn’t that have been better? You will never know because you didn’t try. Most of my Thief deaths are from trying to stomp when there are decent players around. Yea I die doing that quite a bit, but the times I pull them off and get away make it much better. Those are the types of memories that cause QQ posts on forums, not playing conservative and running away when you think you might go down.

Stiv, what you’re talking about is more “pushing your limits” or “testing your luck”. Everyone dies. With thieves it’s usually because they get too aggressive or their escape route ran them into a group of good players.

Whether or not you die is a poor indicator of whether or not you are playing your class to its fullest. If it was a good indicator of this, all those mouthbreathers out there are bloody gurus :-p

Pushing limits and playing to full potential sound similar to me I guess. If I find someone in a fully upgraded supply camp I could just leave or take pot shots and 100% survive. On the other hand I could do my best to down and stomp them with 15 mobs on me because why not? Maybe I never had a shot because that player could have beat me in a 1 on 1 duel to begin with. You never know till you try.

Some players seem to get joy out of just never dying I guess. If I put my mind to it I could run around WvW an entire night playing like a passy and never die I’m sure. The profession just has a lot of escapes that can be used both offensive and defensive (Refuge and Shadow-Step are perfect examples). I could save them 100% for defense and never die, big deal it doesn’t mean I’m OP. It just means i’m playing my profession none dimensional.

Sebrent.3625:

Given how uninformed your answers are on here, you’re probably one of the programmers my group gets fired each year after we show all the holes in your crap for the 20th time.

lol… my 6-figure salary is enough of a “up yours” answer to that petty insult. Judging by “my group” comment, you’re probably one of those envious QA guys.

Sebrent.3625:

That’s exactly the stealth I was talking about with Engineer that ArenaNet said “we don’t want this” and removed. Again, if you had actually taken part in helping the game’s development, you would know this… or if you had even paid attention to the patch notes.

Engineer has never had anything close to C&D or BlackPowder + Heartseeker. While what they were able to do was like BlackPowder + Heartseeker in that it was a combo, they did it with smoke bomb which is on a 25 second cooldown so it was nowhere near what the Thief can do.

Please try harder to make sure you know what is being discussed before you chime in.

Again, neither the Eng nor the Thief “perma stealth” (it’s still not that) examples have anything to do with Thief gameplay style. It’s a design flaw in how combo fields work.

You claimed that devs intended Thieves to use stealth dynamically, but failed because of “perma stealth”. I disagreed with you and explained why when the Thief is actually engaged in combat there is no such thing as “perma stealth”. You attempted to prove it with an example that’s only viable when not engaged in combat. Unlike you, I don’t need to resort to petty insults to have a discussion with someone who disagrees with me.

Sebrent.3625:

Well, the bad thieves die in melee. The good ones make good use of dodge rolls, chain blinding, etc.. Other thieves decide they will use range.

Rangers don’t have dodge? Blind is next to useless on champions. Ranged Thief DPS is terrible.

Xsorus.2507:

I play a thief and a ranger, If you have no clue why people complain about thieves, then you have no clue how balance works in games.

High Damage/High Mobility/Stealth combination (with a crap ton of defense and heals in this game) will always be overpowered in every game you have that combination.

The fact that you get the other things now is what makes Thieves really over the top.

Now i could somewhat understand if the class required a high skill cap, But it doesn’t…..It requires the least amount of skill in the game to be successful at….

But don’t worry, I highly doubt they’ll nerf you.. so you’re safe on that front…

Having a level 80 thief (main), mesmer (2nd), warrior, ranger, ele, and engineer. and a guardian and necro on the way. I would have to disagree with the statement “It requires the least amount of skill in the game to be successful at” in regards to thieves. This statement should be said for Warrior. But this is my opinion.

The break down of my opinion is that, if a glass cannon thief makes a mistake and dodges too early, chances are they die from the mistake. However, if a glass cannon warrior makes a mistake in the same situation, his armor will shave the difference and usually keep him alive. Point in fact, why do you think every COF farm group wants 4 warriors and a mesmer. If thieves really were “no skill, best class, needs nerf” then I am certain that group would be “4 thieves and/or warriors, 1 mesmer.”

On the same note, I can say, out of all the classes I’ve leveled from start to finish, on my ranger (condition/trap build (s/d, sb)), I have to work twice as hard as my thief, warrior, and mesmer to maintain a level of damage equal to those classes, while playing lazy on warrior/thief/mez. So I can see where you got your opinion from.

But to the original point, no game is perfectly balanced, however GW1 and GW2 are closer than other games ive played (swg, swtor, tab. rasa, eq1/2, aoc to name a few).

Sebrent.3625:

Stiv.1820:

The problem with this is I do play another class that I now consider my main (getting any ascended junk I get anyway).

I feel your pain here … I hate getting non-ascended rings now … I only have so many globs, vials, etc. to put into the mystic toilet and magic find at higher levels in fractals is frowned upon and I sure as heck don’t want to be weaker anyways.

Stiv.1820:

Thieves can get away a good amount depending on how conservative they play. If you aren’t dying occasionally on your Thief you aren’t playing it to it’s full potential. Thieves have great mobility and juking with stealth but we aren’t the fastest.

Wait, dying as a class is an indicator of playing it to its full potential? I’m calling shenanigans!

He’s saying that because if you aren’t dying then you aren’t pushing yourself to the limit. You’re pushing the kill switch whenever you think it’s too hard rather then seeing how far you can go.
This is probably the main reason thieves escape so much in WvW. They learn very quickly that they can’t take much punishment so they bail out at the slightest uncertainty to compensate. They have difficulty learning their limit because they always bail out when pressured.

rjinx.1378:

Xsorus.2507:

I play a thief and a ranger, If you have no clue why people complain about thieves, then you have no clue how balance works in games.

High Damage/High Mobility/Stealth combination (with a crap ton of defense and heals in this game) will always be overpowered in every game you have that combination.

The fact that you get the other things now is what makes Thieves really over the top.

Now i could somewhat understand if the class required a high skill cap, But it doesn’t…..It requires the least amount of skill in the game to be successful at….

But don’t worry, I highly doubt they’ll nerf you.. so you’re safe on that front…

Having a level 80 thief (main), mesmer (2nd), warrior, ranger, ele, and engineer. and a guardian and necro on the way. I would have to disagree with the statement “It requires the least amount of skill in the game to be successful at” in regards to thieves. This statement should be said for Warrior. But this is my opinion.

The break down of my opinion is that, if a glass cannon thief makes a mistake and dodges too early, chances are they die from the mistake. However, if a glass cannon warrior makes a mistake in the same situation, his armor will shave the difference and usually keep him alive. Point in fact, why do you think every COF farm group wants 4 warriors and a mesmer. If thieves really were “no skill, best class, needs nerf” then I am certain that group would be “4 thieves and/or warriors, 1 mesmer.”

On the same note, I can say, out of all the classes I’ve leveled from start to finish, on my ranger (condition/trap build (s/d, sb)), I have to work twice as hard as my thief, warrior, and mesmer to maintain a level of damage equal to those classes, while playing lazy on warrior/thief/mez. So I can see where you got your opinion from.

But to the original point, no game is perfectly balanced, however GW1 and GW2 are closer than other games ive played (swg, swtor, tab. rasa, eq1/2, aoc to name a few).

People want warriors for that setup because they’re able to Cleave multiple mobs.

You can’t do that with daggers and pistols (only Sword)

Okamakiri.8746:

Sebrent.3625:

Okamakiri.8746:

Xsorus.2507:

The fact that you think Rangers are a complete faceroll class because you “lvled” one up pretty much tells me everything i need to know about your opinion on the subject.

and Thieves the weakest class in Pve?

Rofl…

i will give you that thieves blow kitten underwater (at least in my opinion)

On land though…No..

Yes, Ranger is a simple class with a low skill cap. Especially in PVE.

But enlighten us, who and why is weaker than thieves in PVE? Particularly high end PVE.

OMG, you want to talk about high-end PVE? What is that exactly? The high level fractals? Do you have even a clue at the issues currently facing Rangers there? Perhaps you should take a look over at Robert Hrouda’s posts (ArenaNet Dev, since I assume you’re ignorant of this as well).

Here’s a glaring one, pet’s dying extremely easily in dungeons because some areas even calling the pet back isn’t sufficient (Ranger controls over the pet are very primitive).

Pets having no Agony Resistance even though the Ranger does.

All pets suck in this game. Ask the Necros if they have any sympathy for the Rangers. But that doesn’t mean that the Ranger is any less useful than the Thief. If you think pets are dieing easily, what do you think is happening to squishy thieves in melee range?

All pets do suck in PVE, however unlike the Necro, My effectiveness is based on my pet…a Necro can just not run pets entirely and be kitten good.

Stiv.1820:

I play a Thief and a Mesmer and Thieves are fine. My Mesmer is much more powerful than my Thief. I get one person down on my thief and spend all my effort trying to stomp them. I get one person down on my Mesmer and I pray that 4 people try to rez and then blow them all to hell.

Yeah because we all know stomping with a thief is almost impossible…

And then with the “I can blow 4 guys in a sec with my mesmer”, i’ll assume that you play against horrible players or, more probably, the only class you played is a thief,

Xsorus.2507:

I play a thief and a ranger, If you have no clue why people complain about thieves, then you have no clue how balance works in games.

High Damage/High Mobility/Stealth combination (with a crap ton of defense and heals in this game) will always be overpowered in every game you have that combination.

The fact that you get the other things now is what makes Thieves really over the top.

Now i could somewhat understand if the class required a high skill cap, But it doesn’t…..It requires the least amount of skill in the game to be successful at….

But don’t worry, I highly doubt they’ll nerf you.. so you’re safe on that front…

This and this, +1

Nobody that have played another class than a thief will say “thieves are ok”, (we are talking about WvW, Spvp without culling, mobs around and big open places is another story and thieves are perfectly ok),

But that’s the problem, many people just play thieves and they can´t see the other face of the coin,

So my advice is avoid talking about balance if you only play one class,

And thieves are far away to be UP on PvE, the problem lies much deeper, you cannot 22222222 mobs, you need to L2P (i know thieves love to say l2p),

The HUGE problem with this game is that combat on WvW, (I repeat, WvW Spvp is another story), revolves around 3 principles,

1) High burst damage
2) Damage avoidance
3) Mobility

Now tell me a class that combines all this in a perfect way.. and there you are, did you realize why thieves are op now?

I hope this will be legible,

Engels.8537:

Stiv.1820:

I play a Thief and a Mesmer and Thieves are fine. My Mesmer is much more powerful than my Thief. I get one person down on my thief and spend all my effort trying to stomp them. I get one person down on my Mesmer and I pray that 4 people try to rez and then blow them all to hell.

Yeah because we all know stomping with a thief is almost impossible…

And then with the “I can blow 4 guys in a sec with my mesmer”, i’ll assume that you play against horrible players or, more probably, the only class you played is a thief,

Xsorus.2507:

I play a thief and a ranger, If you have no clue why people complain about thieves, then you have no clue how balance works in games.

High Damage/High Mobility/Stealth combination (with a crap ton of defense and heals in this game) will always be overpowered in every game you have that combination.

The fact that you get the other things now is what makes Thieves really over the top.

Now i could somewhat understand if the class required a high skill cap, But it doesn’t…..It requires the least amount of skill in the game to be successful at….

But don’t worry, I highly doubt they’ll nerf you.. so you’re safe on that front…

This and this, +1

Nobody that have played another class than a thief will say “thieves are ok”, (we are talking about WvW, Spvp without culling, mobs around and big open places is another story and thieves are perfectly ok),

But that’s the problem, many people just play thieves and they can´t see the other face of the coin,

So my advice is avoid talking about balance if you only play one class,

And thieves are far away to be UP on PvE, the problem lies much deeper, you cannot 22222222 mobs, you need to L2P (i know thieves love to say l2p),

---

The HUGE problem with this game is that combat on WvW, (I repeat, WvW Spvp is another story), revolves around 3 principles,

1) High burst damage
2) Damage avoidance
3) Mobility

Now tell me a class that combines all this in a perfect way.. and there you are, did you realize why thieves are op now?

I hope this will be legible,

---

2 things. 1) Not all thieves burst or can burst. (S/D for example has the avoidance and some mobility but no burst)
2) The 2 sides of the coin goes both ways. Thieves can’t let people who know nothing about thieves suggest whatever they want. No class shouldn’t be allowed to defend their class. For instance I could go rant about how I’ve been downed from over half health by Whirlwind Attack (which is a lot, and I don’t run glass) and the warriors would have every right to defend themselves.

The major problem I have is my S/D is on par with S/P but shares Offhands with with the infamous D/D. Now the reason S/D is on par with S/ kitten tealth. It let’s S/D play a similar control role to S/P, but this control skill is sword’s stealth skill Tactical Strike. As a result S/P which has no stealth but still has access to control is more offensive and S/D which gains it’s control through frequent stealth is more defensive and supportive. Without stealth S/D is completely outclassed by S/P on all fronts but a highly inaccurate boon strip, and becomes the only weapon set in GW2 that has to do nothing but a melee auto attack in its offensive skills. (Like wise, P/D may as well be deleted because all will have is a sub-standard ranged auto attack and a retreat). Stealth nerfs have greater potential to break non-burst builds then they do burst builds.
This is the reason I defend stealth.

^ All thief weapons can burst if that’s what a thief wants to do with them. That’s just reality. S/D most certainly can. Well excluding Shortbow.

ensoriki.5789:

^ All thief weapons can burst if that’s what a thief wants to do with them. That’s just reality. S/D most certainly can. Well excluding Shortbow.

P/D can burst? I don’t think so… with a GC set up it does about the same damage as a non-back hitting backstab. It’s a condition damage weapon pair… and condition damage isn’t burst.

Only way S/D can do anything burst like is with haste… and then it’s basically just haste auto attack… aka not very bursty. S/D is control/utility, not burst.

Then again we might define burst differently (I guess)…

Aberrant.6749:

ensoriki.5789:

^ All thief weapons can burst if that’s what a thief wants to do with them. That’s just reality. S/D most certainly can. Well excluding Shortbow.

P/D can burst? I don’t think so… with a GC set up it does about the same damage as a non-back hitting backstab. It’s a condition damage weapon pair… and condition damage isn’t burst.

Only way S/D can do anything burst like is with haste… and then it’s basically just haste auto attack… aka not very bursty. S/D is control/utility, not burst.

Then again we might define burst differently (I guess)…

Yeah. I don’t go around with Haste and Assassin’s Signet slotted, waiting for it to come off cool down like a BS thief. I get in there and fight my opponents while maintaining as much blind and daze to get my kills.

Hello,

Since this thread is not inviting to constructive and healthy discussion, it is now closed.

Thank you!