Guild Wars 2

Title.

Thieves can fear for longer than any necro fear van manage with deathshroud or staff. It’s also AoE (like staff’s Reaper’s Mark). Three seconds is an extremely long fear duration on it’s own, paired with thieves high damage it let’s them and their team do a lot.

An explanation as to why this is balanced would be great!

Why? Cause it requires very specific prerequisites before using it, i.e stealing from a necro… and the warriors FEAR ME has the same duration from close range if I remember correctly.

Because you have an F1 ability that gives you a second health bar, which is separately refillable, and can swap-to-it-on-demand even when CC’d, which gives you a third set of powerful skills/abilities, fancy looking graphics, and adds a unique dynamic to the overall fight, where even at 1hp left, you can initiate a full health bar ability on a single keypress and keep fighting…

And for that F1 ability, we get a lackluster, melee-range ability with a 45s cooldown where we can throw a Fear IF our enemy is a Necro and we didn’t use the ability on some other class in the past 45s…

*Note, lackluster is not to imply that it can’t shine

Necro fears are essentially interrupts, and the Theif fear is a good, hard CC.

Steal is not lackluster when it shadowsteps you to your target and can crit for 5-6k with Mug.

I’d love to see more viable fears on the Necro. You don’t have to get all defensive, I don’t think he’s calling for a nerf to Steal fears, just a little more Necro love, as the longest fear they have (AFAIK) is 1s ( untraited ).

EDIT: You probably should have posted this on the Necro forums. Calling out Thieves isn’t going to get you anywhere in voicing your concern.

Most steal abilities are stronger versions of a class skill.

Steal is amazingly good, but it is balanced by a fairly long CD, IMO.

As someone with both a necro and a thief, I think the thief version is a bit too long in comparison. It really shouldn’t be better than a class’s niche. Necro’s can trait and gear for duration though and chain them together for a decent length, it’s just a lot more work and trouble however.

you know how warriors have special powerful moves that require adrenaline?

its kinda like that tho instead of being built up it requries a specific target and a 45 second CD to be off CD.

andybmcc.8751:

Necro fears are essentially interrupts, and the Theif fear is a good, hard CC.

Steal is not lackluster when it shadowsteps you to your target and can crit for 5-6k with Mug.

I’d love to see more viable fears on the Necro. You don’t have to get all defensive, I don’t think he’s calling for a nerf to Steal fears, just a little more Necro love, as the longest fear they have (AFAIK) is 1s ( untraited ).

EDIT: You probably should have posted this on the Necro forums. Calling out Thieves isn’t going to get you anywhere in voicing your concern.

I’m aware that I could have posted it in the necro section, however the skill is derived by thieves. Necromancer’s have a 2s fear, single target, and only in downed state. You are right that the other fears are used as an interrupt, not necessarily bad for it’s use. However their is a problem that should be noticed with thief damage and having a 3s AoE fear that is, I believe, affected by condition duration.

Yes necromancer’s get a second health bar, the generation in PvP is very low and stealth is far more effective than just taking another few hits (the health bar drains itself, not just by taking damage, is it lowered).

You asked for an explanation as to why this is balanced, the following are examples of how the steal is balanced.

45sec CD
%chance of the fear ability from the necromancer table of steal-able abilities

I believe this is balanced, especially for dungeons like AC. please note that steal is single target. Thieves specialise in single target and therefore because we can rarely attack with AoE we need to have ‘something’ to keep us alive from multiple enemies.

ddrake.5436:

You asked for an explanation as to why this is balanced, the following are examples of how the steal is balanced.

45sec CD
%chance of the fear ability from the necromancer table of steal-able abilities

I believe this is balanced, especially for dungeons like AC. please note that steal is single target. Thieves specialise in single target and therefore because we can rarely attack with AoE we need to have ‘something’ to keep us alive from multiple enemies.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skull_Fear 45s Recharge, 3s Duration [AoE]
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Mark 40s Recharge, 1s Duration [AoE]
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom 20s Recharge, 1s Duration [Single Target]

Yes I’m aware it requires stealing from them, but it’s not hard to find the necromancer and always steal from them and then the team fight completely topples from there because of the 3+s enemy team CC.

@konvay

don’t forget the rest of your fear type traits

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Terror – fear does damage (like steal+mug)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Protection – fear when you are disabled (this is the best example of using your traits)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear_of_Death – fear when you are downed (another fear)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Master_of_Terror – fear lasts longer

don’t forget your stun breakers

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Traversal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague_Signet
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Armor
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Walk

now when I say L2P what I mean to say is do not complain about our class, until you learn to play yours.

Why does flesh golem last forever and theive’s guild not? Why does any class do X better than Y?

Steal is our class mechanic. It is the OMGWTFBBQ button, and the only one (ever) that we have. When we steal, we get something, and its usually a very powerful something because we don’t have shatters, or a pet, or another form, or a toolbelt, or a massive damage adrenaline skill, or anything else that doesn’t take up either our precious and limited initiative or one of our right bar cooldowns. We also can’t swap weapons to get more attacks, as initiative doesn’t care which weapons you have out.

So yes, I think a 3s AoE fear is pretty fair considering how unreliable our access is to it, and how vulnerable we are if we blow all of our offense within that three seconds. I party with a lot of necromancers, and the volume of fear you are capable of putting out if you build for it more than makes up for its duration.

Necro damage, however, could use love as could some of the numbers in terms of life force gain/use.

ddrake.5436:

@konvay

don’t forget the rest of your fear type traits

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Terror – fear does damage (like steal+mug)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Protection – fear when you are disabled (this is the best example of using your traits)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear_of_Death – fear when you are downed (another fear)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Master_of_Terror – fear lasts longer

don’t forget your stun breakers

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Traversal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague_Signet
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Armor
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Walk

now when I say L2P what I mean to say is do not complain about our class, until you learn to play yours.

AhAHHAhAha, terror been compared to mug. If you make a build around terror-> 6 runes of the necromancer, 30/20/0/0/20, the max damage you can do with terror is ~1000 damage, and that’s IF you are downed.

Out of those 4 stun breakers BTW, only 1 is worth using.

Flesh Wurm requires set up, which doesn’t help when you are ambushed. The cooldown is not satisfactory either.

Plague Signet has a detrimental passive effect that no one will take because it doesn’t work properly atm, also, you won’t be able to use it if the person stunning you is behind you (which is always the case with fear), and you’ll need to hope there is another target in front of you.

Spectral Armor has a ridiculous 90 second cooldown.

So really, the only worthwhile stun breaker is Spectral Walk.

I hope they fix Plague Signet soon. It would probably end up as the goto stunbreak on my necro.

ITT: Thieves try to defend OP Steal abilities, and talk about how much better Necro’s are than them.

Ugh.

Too many people playing thieves insta-gibs build. It need to be nerf, while buffing other thieves build so that the class will be viable. Prob is, thieves doesn’t have much weapon/skill sets.

I hope Anet will make the right call this time.

lol thieves actually use this when they steal it? i just dump it so i can steal agin faster.. why would i want to fear my target away? i want them immobolized and dead as fast as possible, not feared away to regain life and get to safety

Well I mean… it IS the thieves’ profession mechanic. Have you looked at their other steals? 4s daze? 10 second water combo field (hello blast finisher spam)? No other prof even comes close to a 13 second chill. The whirlwind can easily hit for 8k+ (thankfully it is nerfed somewhat).

Ok I’m still not sure what to do with the goo puddle or the boons from mesmer.

Knote.2904:

ITT: Thieves try to defend OP Steal abilities, and talk about how much better Necro’s are than them.

Ugh.

of course we are defending thieves, your on a thief forum, or havn’t you noticed?
BTW we aren’t talking about how necro is better, we are defending their class for them. because clearly they don’t know their own class and need a thief to explain it to them.

ddrake.5436:

Knote.2904:

ITT: Thieves try to defend OP Steal abilities, and talk about how much better Necro’s are than them.

Ugh.

of course we are defending thieves, your on a thief forum, or havn’t you noticed?
BTW we aren’t talking about how necro is better, we are defending their class for them. because clearly they don’t know their own class and need a thief to explain it to them.

If you actually knew anything about necromancers you wouldn’t have even mentioned the terribleness that is terror. Necromancer stun breakers are aligned to the most ridiculous skills, with only Spectral Walk actually usable as a method of stun breaking.

Skull Fear might not be OP when looked at by itself, but in conjunction of what a Thief can do, 3 seconds of downtime is detrimental for a Necromancer. And funny you should leave out the one true way of countering skull fear, or any assault after prolonged CC, Doom. Not a stun breaker. You’d know that if you know how to play necromancers.

I’m going to venture this guess:

Because Thieves aren’t Necros

Obtena how can you steal a fear from a necro if they dont have a aoe fear to begin with. That is like saying you stole from a guy who had 20$ in his wallet, and you swipe that wallet and now its 40 dollars in it. same for other skills they steal, why are they stronger then the skills of the class they stole from normally.

It’d be nice if steal worked a bit like Arcane thievery in GW1, more about disruption, less about getting a new ability.

Its a reasonable question.

“why are they stronger then the skills of the class they stole from normally.”

Because they only get to use it once. It’d be like if necros could steal a stealth ability that lasts for 6 seconds, making it better than thief default stealth. If the ability only lasted for 1 second, it would be worthless. Would you waste a 45 sec cooldown, burst element and gap closer for a 1 sec stealth ability? No! You’d save it for something better.

If they made Steal take worse versions of other profession’s abilities it would just be a terrible version of Infiltrator’s Strike on a ridiculously long cooldown. The better abilities actually give it purpose. Besides, it’s not difficult timing evade for when the thief gets within Steal range, or using a a defensive ability. Steal misses/is blocked fairly often and we end up with a HUGE hole in not only our offensive potential but in our defensive as well.

Hanzo.9624:

“why are they stronger then the skills of the class they stole from normally.”

Because they only get to use it once. It’d be like if necros could steal a stealth ability that lasts for 6 seconds, making it better than thief default stealth. If the ability only lasted for 1 second, it would be worthless. Would you waste a 45 sec cooldown, burst element and gap closer for a 1 sec stealth ability? No! You’d save it for something better.

If they made Steal take worse versions of other profession’s abilities it would just be a terrible version of Infiltrator’s Strike on a ridiculously long cooldown. The better abilities actually give it purpose. Besides, it’s not difficult timing evade for when the thief gets within Steal range, or using a a defensive ability. Steal misses/is blocked fairly often and we end up with a HUGE hole in not only our offensive potential but in our defensive as well.

Steal should steal some iteration of Death Shroud then.

Steal is OP and unfair.

Thief stealing from any class gets a much stronger version than this class’s skills.
Warrior axe whirlwind damage = 2-3k
Thief warrior steal skill = 10-14k dmg (with same build)

sure does make sense

incisorr.9502:

Steal is OP and unfair.

Thief stealing from any class gets a much stronger version than this class’s skills.
Warrior axe whirlwind damage = 2-3k
Thief warrior steal skill = 10-14k dmg (with same build)

sure does make sense

Maybe because STEALING is the THIEF’S main ability… I could understand your point if whirlwind was the warrior’s rage move, but it’s not… it’s his axe 5 skill. fixed

It’s actually mimicking axe 5 Jjinx. But really, axe 5 is mostly used for gaining adrenaline, and getting crits in for “on-crit: x” effects. I recall it being worse than the axe’s auto-attack in terms of damage output.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

It’s actually mimicking axe 5 Jjinx. But really, axe 5 is mostly used for gaining adrenaline, and getting crits in for “on-crit: x” effects. I recall it being worse than the axe’s auto-attack in terms of damage output.

Exactly… thief doesn’t have adrenaline so what else would it be used for? damage.

Oh, are are you guys moving onto Steal now after your whining about glass cannon thief builds and pistol whip? Just sayin’. I saw a thread about Dagger Storm the other day, i wonder why you guys haven’t moved onto maybe, I don’t know, thieves being able to attack when they see a hostile target.?

How would you guys like it if we went onto your forums and cried for nerfs based on reasons that don’t even make sense.

FrozenLuv.6017:

Oh, are are you guys moving onto Steal now after your whining about glass cannon thief builds and pistol whip? Just sayin’. I saw a thread about Dagger Storm the other day, i wonder why you guys haven’t moved onto maybe, I don’t know, thieves being able to attack when they see a hostile target.?

How would you guys like it if we went onto your forums and cried for nerfs based on reasons that don’t even make sense.

I honestly don’t get why no one cries on the other forums? I’m getting “kitten” annoyed by mesmers all the time.

Hey, guys why don’t we go whine on the other classes forums about their skills, it would be fun? Better yet, we can whine about their class mechanics. i’m off to complain about necro’s death shroud, see you guys in a bit.

FrozenLuv.6017:

Oh, are are you guys moving onto Steal now after your whining about glass cannon thief builds and pistol whip? Just sayin’. I saw a thread about Dagger Storm the other day, i wonder why you guys haven’t moved onto maybe, I don’t know, thieves being able to attack when they see a hostile target.?

How would you guys like it if we went onto your forums and cried for nerfs based on reasons that don’t even make sense.

there will always be something for the baddies to complain about. If they attack a thief and they don’t win, then surely it’s because heartseeker, pistol whip, stealth, steal, initiative, backstab, caltops, roll for initiative, descent of shadows, ambush trap, and basilisk venom are waaaay too powerful… otherwise he would have won (spamming skills as soon as they’re off cooldown).

i smell QQ thread about dancing dagger incoming on next thread
any bets ?

DanH.5879:

i smell QQ thread about dancing dagger incoming on next thread
any bets ?

Dancing daggers needs a nerf. Not only does it deal damage, but it cripples and bounces to other targets! IMO it should only be able to do 1 of these things, and/or it’s initiative cost should be raised to 10 initiative, minimum. It should also disable your other skills for a few seconds.

3 Seconds Criple Yey, with 2k damage if 2 glass cannons are near each other they will take around 5k each maybe more if light armor. Actualy against single target its just lackluster exept criple against groups its just too good sometimes.

Wilow.3061:

Not only does it deal damage, but it cripples and bounces to other targets! IMO it should only be able to do 1 of these things…

I agree. I, for one, choose bouncing to targets. Who needs damage or cripple, when you get a delightful animation and a splendid woosh sound?

After all, GW2 is all about the aesthetics!

People won’t stop crying about Thieves and their skills until the Thief is nerfed so badly nobody plays them anymore and the whiny kittenes move on to a new class to whine about. It’s this generation of gimme, gimme, gimme, easy, easy, easy children that play games these days. It’s a lot in part of course to WoW due to Blizzard dumbing their own game down so badly that even a petrified stick could play the game.

What ever happened to people showing some balls and learning some strategies? I remember not too long ago if I was playing in an arcade on lets say, Street Fighter 2 and this dude walks in and kicks my kitten with Guile, I didn’t just cry about how to nerf Guile, I put another gd quarter in and played against that guy until I WON. I learned his patterns, I learned his weaknesses, then I used that knowledge to exploit his mistakes and patterns and beat him.

Obviously this could go back and forth, but eventually the games would be about even on every match until the matches always came down to that last little hit. That was FUN. That was competition. That was what PvP is, not this nerf, nerf, nerf, whine, whine, whine, bullkitten. And that’s the problem with 90% of the people crying about the Thief. They don’t want to put that virtual quarter in and go back and learn to beat their kitten Hell, if they even TRIED to learn how to beat their kitten I’d help them out in any way I could. kitten, I’d probably even let them win a few times against me just to make them feel better. In the end, none of this even matters, Anet isn’t going to listen to crybabies, they listen to their computer models that feed them all the data they use to buff and nerf. They don’t play their own game and they don’t care what we have to say unless it’s an exploit or a bug. Sorry for the rant, but these topics are really getting old.

Setima.8741:

People won’t stop crying about Thieves and their skills until the Thief is nerfed so badly nobody plays them anymore and the whiny kittenes move on to a new class to whine about. It’s this generation of gimme, gimme, gimme, easy, easy, easy children that play games these days. It’s a lot in part of course to WoW due to Blizzard dumbing their own game down so badly that even a petrified stick could play the game.

What ever happened to people showing some balls and learning some strategies? I remember not too long ago if I was playing in an arcade on lets say, Street Fighter 2 and this dude walks in and kicks my kitten with Guile, I didn’t just cry about how to nerf Guile, I put another gd quarter in and played against that guy until I WON. I learned his patterns, I learned his weaknesses, then I used that knowledge to exploit his mistakes and patterns and beat him.

Obviously this could go back and forth, but eventually the games would be about even on every match until the matches always came down to that last little hit. That was FUN. That was competition. That was what PvP is, not this nerf, nerf, nerf, whine, whine, whine, bullkitten. And that’s the problem with 90% of the people crying about the Thief. They don’t want to put that virtual quarter in and go back and learn to beat their kitten Hell, if they even TRIED to learn how to beat their kitten I’d help them out in any way I could. kitten, I’d probably even let them win a few times against me just to make them feel better. In the end, none of this even matters, Anet isn’t going to listen to crybabies, they listen to their computer models that feed them all the data they use to buff and nerf. They don’t play their own game and they don’t care what we have to say unless it’s an exploit or a bug. Sorry for the rant, but these topics are really getting old.

I just want to destroy all your argument in one question:
How much time and/or efforts did you took, as a Thief, to learn how to counter a Necromancer?

sorrow.2364:

Setima.8741:

People won’t stop crying about Thieves and their skills until the Thief is nerfed so badly nobody plays them anymore and the whiny kittenes move on to a new class to whine about. It’s this generation of gimme, gimme, gimme, easy, easy, easy children that play games these days. It’s a lot in part of course to WoW due to Blizzard dumbing their own game down so badly that even a petrified stick could play the game.

What ever happened to people showing some balls and learning some strategies? I remember not too long ago if I was playing in an arcade on lets say, Street Fighter 2 and this dude walks in and kicks my kitten with Guile, I didn’t just cry about how to nerf Guile, I put another gd quarter in and played against that guy until I WON. I learned his patterns, I learned his weaknesses, then I used that knowledge to exploit his mistakes and patterns and beat him.

Obviously this could go back and forth, but eventually the games would be about even on every match until the matches always came down to that last little hit. That was FUN. That was competition. That was what PvP is, not this nerf, nerf, nerf, whine, whine, whine, bullkitten. And that’s the problem with 90% of the people crying about the Thief. They don’t want to put that virtual quarter in and go back and learn to beat their kitten Hell, if they even TRIED to learn how to beat their kitten I’d help them out in any way I could. kitten, I’d probably even let them win a few times against me just to make them feel better. In the end, none of this even matters, Anet isn’t going to listen to crybabies, they listen to their computer models that feed them all the data they use to buff and nerf. They don’t play their own game and they don’t care what we have to say unless it’s an exploit or a bug. Sorry for the rant, but these topics are really getting old.

I just want to destroy all your argument in one question:
How much time and/or efforts did you took, as a Thief, to learn how to counter a Necromancer?

Depends on the Necro, but I assume you’re talking about a staff one. That is the necros weapon I am most familiar with because it seems like every necro uses a staff. Anyway,
Dogde over the marks.
Interrupt the 4 ability while they are in Death Shroud.
Cleanse condition when they hit the "sweet"spot (7-9 stacks of bleeds)
Burst him down before he has time to gain Life Force for Death Shroud again.
Dodge the Warhorn skill that dazes you (Wail of Doom?)
Apply constant pressure.

That’s pretty much what goes through my head whenever I fight a Necro.

Honestly I haven’t gone up against any good Necromancers yet. In fact the two classes that will give me the most trouble with my spec (Wild Bill) is another Thief if he catches me in the middle of another fight or a Condition Necromancer. The only Necromancers I’ve seen in WvW has been the pet version that has like 10 pets following them around. They don’t take much to kill. I still have learning to go of course, but so far since swapping to Wild Bill spec, I do far better in all PvP than I ever did as a Backstab Thief.

“How much time and/or efforts did you took, as a Thief, to learn how to counter a Necromancer?”

Most players in MMO’s are awful, especially in this game. You can make a level 2 toon and jump into pvp without knowing anything about your build or gear or abilities. How many of those cry baby forum whiners are there that are getting insta-gibbed by thieves on a toon they’ve never played before and then coming on here like they have a right to judge class balance. This includes necros. I see necros more often than not wasting death shroud for it’s entire duration.

Typical necro fight for me: I burst. He uses death shroud and every ability death shroud offers. I white damage then burst him again when DS is down. Pretty kitten

And then there’s really really good necros who throw wells under me when I’m stealthed because they’re not complete idiots, or drop marks on themselves when I go stealth so when I do burst them I get overwhelmed with conditions and feared. They force me to waste hide in shadows then immediately stack bleeds on me when I can’t remove them for 30 seconds. They pop in and out of death shroud and kite me. And these are only condition necros. Minion Masters are also hard and near impossible to kill when played correctly. Flesh Golem knock down > Drop staff marks on knocked down thief > Bone minion explosion > Thief uses hide in shadows > pop DS on thief’s burst and fear > pop out of DS and use pet root > drop marks on thief again > resummon bone minions etc etc

I have no problems with thieves on my necro unless they jump me when I’m fighting someone else, and I’m not an idiot so I don’t complain about getting killed 1v2. Video games attract the type of people who want instant gratification without any work put in. Who, instead of trying to get better, expect everyone else to be made worse just so they can feel better about themselves. I hope ANet isn’t one of those companies that cater to spoiled children.

@Hanzo:
Are you trying to say that everyone is bad except you as a Necromancer?
Every profession need the same skill level to perform equally good and this is not the case of Guild Wars 2.
You can’t say that you need the same skill level to play as a Necromancer and as a Thief.

All your argument is invalid because you don’t consider the damage output of Necromancers, which is in most the case not enough to kill a Thief when he pops in and out of stealth and, if you build on damage, you probably don’t have enough defenses to survive the first burst.

Also you said that minion masters are nearly impossible to kill… You clearly haven’t played Necromancer. Minions are the most awful pets in the game with a really awful AI, that’s why none runs minion and you don’t see many minion masters in sPvP/tPvP. I really want to see a video of you kicking kitten as minion master and with your minions actually attacking people instead of staring the void.

I’ve played all the PvE story with Necromancer and made almost 75% of sPvP/tPvP games with my Necromancer (enough to reach rank 23) and, still, I perform way better when I’m on my Thief than on my Necromancer. Does it means that I’m negated into playing Necromancer or that, probably, thieves are too good and too easy to play and probably need a nerf?

gamefreak.5673:

Obtena how can you steal a fear from a necro if they dont have a aoe fear to begin with.

I don’t see how realism is relevant to the issue (or any issue in an MMO for that matter). There is no ‘rule’ that says that when a thief steals a skill, it’s stolen EXACTLY the way that it manifests on the class they steal from. I think it’s interesting that skills that are stolen get a bit of thief flair added to them.

@sorrow:
I like how you jumped straight into saying he’s wrong about the gameplay when his post is more about how people that QQ are just whiners who want to make the game easier for themselves and harder for others due to the need for instant gratification. He just used that as an example. But i guess you can’t really talk about the deeper psychological aspects of gaming to a bunch of spoiled children.