Guild Wars 2

So i noticed s/d seems to be the new craze since some of the top thieves used it in ToL. This mostly applies to spvp, but even wvw to some extent now. I’m not all that experienced, so I need some help to understand why it is so good. I’ve tried it some and I am having trouble adjusting to lower dps. Seems like you spend more time dodging and creating distance, than doing dmg.

I know it’s a pretty good dueling spec because it has good sustain and a lot of dodges/might. Fine. I know some tpvp teams may want a thief that can survive longer on a point or something. Good.

My understanding of a thief’s most common role, at least in spvp, is to zip around maps, decapping/capping unguarded points and helping in finishing fights with teammates. So you have shortbow for mobility and utility that seems to be a given.

Sword brings some nice effects like condi clear, weakness, cleave. But is s/d really better than s/p? Seems to me that even with the pistol whip nerf that the pistol offhand will provide better options in spvp than dagger offhand. Is fs/Ls really that good?

Can someone explain to me why this 2/0/0/6/6 build is so good for spvp/wvw now? Other than 1v1 fights or trolling with a bunch of dodges?

Because Sizer.

That’s the best and most accurate explanation you’ll get.

Not everyone stops and thinks if the build makes sense for them, in their particular situation. I assume Sizer ran that build because it helped him keep up with some of the insanely bunkerish builds that dominate the tournament scene. Normal glass-cannon builds (D/P, S/P) just can’t keep up with these bunkers who also apply consistent pressure via auto-attack and conditions. S/D has quite a lot of sustain. It also gives you the great utility from Trickery both with boon-stripping and on-demand interrupts, which are very useful in team-fights. Sizer also said that S/D is simply his favorite build to play so there’s that to consider too.

But frankly I don’t think this build is really ideal for everyone to run in every situation. S/D is as close as a Thief gets to running a bunker build without ruining his role.

But if you watched the tournament there will still plenty of S/P Thieves running around. It’s still a perfectly viable set, just less forgiving than before and not nearly as strong against the whole bunker-meta as before.

People kitten the power of a build based on 1v1 situations, and S/D performs quite well in that aspect. And until that changes it will remain a popular build, even if other builds suit the Thief’s role better.

It’s all because of the Might stacking lately. I personally cannot resist not stealing them — my palm itches when I see a Guardian or Warrior running around with 10+ stacks of might.

WvW is just rich with buffs ripe for a picking.

Thanks for the replies. Sizer is good for sure, and could make sword/no OH look good. I’m trying to make sense of it for the common thief like me.

So if boon steal is that effective, does 3 skill get the most use? For the evade and boon steal?

Traxal.2745:

Thanks for the replies. Sizer is good for sure, and could make sword/no OH look good. I’m trying to make sense of it for the common thief like me.

So if boon steal is that effective, does 3 skill get the most use? For the evade and boon steal?

No, you only need LS and Steal, but need to trait for Bountiful Theft.

Let’s say I saw a Guardian with 12 stacks of Might running with his Warrior buddy with also 12 stacks of Might. What I do is, use Flanking Strike out somewhere — no target is preferred.

Then I pre-cast Larcenous Strike -> Steal from the Guardian -> Switch target to Warrior -> Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike -> dodge roll = Easy 25 stacks of Might.

EDIT:
Minor clarification. Bountiful Theft will steal Aegis from the Guardian first, so that you can steal the Might stacks with Larcenous Strike.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Traxal.2745:

Thanks for the replies. Sizer is good for sure, and could make sword/no OH look good. I’m trying to make sense of it for the common thief like me.

So if boon steal is that effective, does 3 skill get the most use? For the evade and boon steal?

No, you only need LS and Steal, but need to trait for Bountiful Theft.

Let’s say I saw a Guardian with 12 stacks of Might running with his Warrior buddy with also 12 stacks of Might. What I do is, use Flanking Strike out somewhere — no target is preferred.

Then I pre-cast Larcenous Strike -> Steal from the Guardian -> Switch target to Warrior -> Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike -> dodge roll = Easy 25 stacks of Might.

EDIT:
Minor clarification. Bountiful Theft will steal Aegis from the Guardian first, so that you can steal the Might stacks with Larcenous Strike.

I run S/D & SB in WVW quite regularly and not the popular Sizer build variant. I’m pretty sure when we rip, lets say Might from a target, we don’t get their stacks. For example, if a Guard has 10 stacks of might and no other boons up, Larcenous Strike will pull that 10 stacks off him but give me only 1 stack. For as far as I can tell, boon ripping still doesn’t reward the opponents stacks to the thief.

Dee Jay.2460:

Because Sizer.

That’s the best and most accurate explanation you’ll get.

Not everyone stops and thinks if the build makes sense for them, in their particular situation. I assume Sizer ran that build because it helped him keep up with some of the insanely bunkerish builds that dominate the tournament scene. Normal glass-cannon builds (D/P, S/P) just can’t keep up with these bunkers who also apply consistent pressure via auto-attack and conditions. S/D has quite a lot of sustain. It also gives you the great utility from Trickery both with boon-stripping and on-demand interrupts, which are very useful in team-fights. Sizer also said that S/D is simply his favorite build to play so there’s that to consider too.

But frankly I don’t think this build is really ideal for everyone to run in every situation. S/D is as close as a Thief gets to running a bunker build without ruining his role.

But if you watched the tournament there will still plenty of S/P Thieves running around. It’s still a perfectly viable set, just less forgiving than before and not nearly as strong against the whole bunker-meta as before.

People kitten the power of a build based on 1v1 situations, and S/D performs quite well in that aspect. And until that changes it will remain a popular build, even if other builds suit the Thief’s role better.

I can’t stand sizers gameplay tbh, I run s/d because I’ve mained it for a year or so, it has nothing to do with the “top thieves” (who really aren’t even that amazing).

I doubt many people actually watched ToL.

It’s due to the April update that made Dagger less bursty and update in runes which is a healthy upgrade for builds that use boons. People suddenly felt like their whole world is coming down with the crit damage “balance” and S/D seems to work since it never relied that much on crit damage to begin with. With more emphasis on raw power these boon builds while inferior to a pure burst, has become more viable of an option due to less of a gap between the pure burst and the “bunker” boon build in terms of DPS.

^This.

Ever since the patch happened, I have never run into a D/P thief in WvW. Pre-patch it was all about D/P, it seemed like 90% of the thieves were running it. I’m going to refer to this as the D/P syndrome from now on — it seems that so many people ran it, but likewise were getting sick of it and encountering every other D/P thief as well, that they were looking for any build that would take them the hell away from D/P.

BAM

Patch happened, and it gave everyone a “reason” to drop mainhand daggers(even though D/X still seem great) for something new and refreshing.

@Amonatory, I agree. How did people come about idolizing a few folks? We got plenty of thieves that could give them a run for their money.

panicbutton.1053:

^This.

Ever since the patch happened, I have never run into a D/P thief in WvW. Pre-patch it was all about D/P, it seemed like 90% of the thieves were running it. I’m going to refer to this as the D/P syndrome from now on — it seems that so many people ran it, but likewise were getting sick of it and encountering every other D/P thief as well, that they were looking for any build that would take them the hell away from D/P.

BAM

Patch happened, and it gave everyone a “reason” to drop mainhand daggers(even though D/X still seem great) for something new and refreshing.

@Amonatory, I agree. How did people come about idolizing a few folks? We got plenty of thieves that could give them a run for their money.

It’s obvious, they are on a good pvp team so people think they are absolutely amazing.

I ran the set and spec in both s/tPvP and WvW long before it became cool. Now after one tournament every Sizer-wannabe is running it and I feel like smacking my head.

Ritt.3069:

I ran the set and spec in both s/tPvP and WvW long before it became cool. Now after one tournament every Sizer-wannabe is running it and I feel like smacking my head.

+1

But I however find it rather cute when they die to one BV > CnD>Steal> BS-combo.

Its not only just Sizer.

I’d say the meta shift towards S/D has happened due to a few reasons.

1. Ferocity changes making Berserker Amulet relatively stronger, and Critical Strikes trait line relatively weaker.
2. The changes to runes and sigils introduced a lot of powercreep. Both to 2/0/0/6/6 S/D and potential opponents.
3. “Fall” of D/P due to powercreep of opponents.

Due to the changes above, S/D, specifically 2/0/0/6/6 S/D in theory has become more powerful, and thus more prevalent.

1. Changes to Crit Damage/Ferocity.
Before, the Critical Strikes line was almost a must-have for power-based thieves. We used to get a solid 30% Crit Damage from putting 30 trait points into Critical Strikes line. However, now for putting 6 points into CS, we only get 300 Ferocity, which is 20% Critical Damage.

Devs wished to have Critical Damage retain a similar value in PvP both pre and post ferocity changes, thus, the PvP Berserker Amulet now gives 447 Ferocity, about 30% Critical Damage, instead of the previous 20% Critical Damage.

This change has made 0 CS power thieves a more viable alternative.

2. The changes to both Runes and Sigils have altered the metagame quite a lot.
Builds like Terrormancer Necros got a huge buff due to Nightmare Runes million year fears, Engineers got Balthazar Runes for burning forever, most other classes benefited significantly from Strength Runes for a huge damage increase etc.

Changes to Sigils are also another huge factor. Warriors, Mesmers, Engineers, and Elementalists all received significant power boosts due to Sigil changes. Mostly because their “meta” builds used to have one on-swap sigil, and another filler sigil. However, now with independent sigil CDs, you have lots of people stacking many different on-swap Sigils, and Mesmers are now able to have both Energy and Air/Fire sigils on their weapons.

Unfortunately for thief, specifically the D/P 2/6/0/0/6 got left in the dust. The biggest benefit for the build would probably be from the ability to stack both Air and Fire sigils on weapons. Strength Runes however have very good Synergy with the Power of Inertia trait (Acro II), and just the Acrobatics line for thieves in General. This has also made 2/0/0/6/6 more viable.

3. “Fall” of D/P.
As I have highlighted earlier, the changes in the April 15 patch have not really benefited the 2/6/0/0/6 D/P thief too much, while other opponents and specs are creeping up in power. As such, many of the matchups that used to be in favor of D/P have now fallen out of favor, and in general it has made it quite difficult for D/P to compete. 2/6/0/0/6 D/P is really just too squishy in a land of bunkers that can out pressure it.

On the other hand, 2/0/0/6/6 has received a large power boost, and in general, has just become more relevant in the current meta of heavy boons and boon control (Pretty much everyone is running Strength Runes.)

At the end of the day, its just a meta shift. Nothing really to do with one weaponset suddenly becoming stronger, or the other suddenly becoming weaker, but all the other relevant factors that come into play when theorycrafting a build.

Who is Sizer????

For me S/D is simply the most fun to play build.
D/D becomes hollow after a while, because it is nearly everything about landing your CnD.
D/P feels just too slow. #5-#2 combo takes a whole second until you are stealthed. Best set for trolling people.
P/D is strong now, but has imo a boring gameplay.
P/P yeah, of course
S/P while it is strong I hate the rooting effect of #3.

2/0/0/6/6 S/D is not only powerful, it is such a fast and amazing gameplay. After the sword #2 nerf, and the vigor nerfs it feels a little bit like in the old days

I’ve been using SD almost since release and almost all the time. And now some Sizer-wannabes come here and claim that everyone using SD is just copying him. Having such small margin of build personalisation it’s obvious that lots of people will come up with exactly the same spec.
10/30/0/0/30 SD/SB here and I am 100% certain that I have seen Caed play it and MToker as well.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It’s all because of the Might stacking lately. I personally cannot resist not stealing them — my palm itches when I see a Guardian or Warrior running around with 10+ stacks of might.

WvW is just rich with buffs ripe for a picking.

This is exactly it however i come from a spvp perspective not a WvW one. might stacking is the done thing for any dps build. You guys seen what a hambow can do with 25 stacks of might? if you get caught in stun lock as a thief you die in like 3 hits especially if they run sigil of intelligence, if you stand in the fire field you get burning for 500+ a tick. The might stacks are better on you rather than the enemy Traxal.2745, and besides with 20+ stacks of might with a 7% increase to dps with might on you (rune of strength) you wont be complaining about any lack of dps when you steal all the might of an opponent.

Slugonaut.9841:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Traxal.2745:

Thanks for the replies. Sizer is good for sure, and could make sword/no OH look good. I’m trying to make sense of it for the common thief like me.

So if boon steal is that effective, does 3 skill get the most use? For the evade and boon steal?

No, you only need LS and Steal, but need to trait for Bountiful Theft.

Let’s say I saw a Guardian with 12 stacks of Might running with his Warrior buddy with also 12 stacks of Might. What I do is, use Flanking Strike out somewhere — no target is preferred.

Then I pre-cast Larcenous Strike -> Steal from the Guardian -> Switch target to Warrior -> Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike -> dodge roll = Easy 25 stacks of Might.

EDIT:
Minor clarification. Bountiful Theft will steal Aegis from the Guardian first, so that you can steal the Might stacks with Larcenous Strike.

I run S/D & SB in WVW quite regularly and not the popular Sizer build variant. I’m pretty sure when we rip, lets say Might from a target, we don’t get their stacks. For example, if a Guard has 10 stacks of might and no other boons up, Larcenous Strike will pull that 10 stacks off him but give me only 1 stack. For as far as I can tell, boon ripping still doesn’t reward the opponents stacks to the thief.

You definitely get all the stacks mate. I have dueled a hambow friend many times. Such lols :p unless there is a wvw/spvp difference to the way this mechanic works. but you definitely get them all in spvp.

Thank you for the technical insights on why this build has increased in popularity lately. The boon stripping and changes to ferocity/pvp stats makes sense.

As for everyone trying to copy sizer, or being sizer wannabes, cmon guys. There are plenty of great thieves out there. Harley and amon both poseted above – I’ve seen both of your videos with s/d and you guys are really good. Like someone said, there arent a crazy amt of build options so people are bound to have tried everything. Just because you tried the current up and coming build that was (correctly or incorrectly) Attributed to sizer, doesnt mean you are a wannabe.

Thanks to those who posted

^^^^ agreed. I mean Sizer is a kitten good thief, but I would rather emulate Amon or Harley over him any day. Luckily though most of newborn 2/0/0/6/6 thiefies are just mindlessly spamming evades and fail to play it properly

Before the Flanking Strike fix, everyone uses D/P
After Flanking Strike became Flanking Strike/Larcenous Strike, everyone uses S/D
After December 10 nerf of Sword, everyone’s back to D/P
After April 15 nerf of Crit Damage, everyone’s back to S/D

It’s a roller coaster ride.

As for me, S/P + P/P is my main load out and only switches to S/D when the target has a lot of boons, and D/P when fighting a Warrior or another Thief.

S/D was popular in ToL largely because it’s a strong build for organized teams:

- The high evasion makes it stronger in team fights than dagger specs that often need to sit back and use only the short bow.
– When you have a team that targets enemies, you have much more mobility to navigate the map since you can then target someone behind a wall and use Infiltator’s Strike to shadow step forward.

If you’re playing solo Q, then these strengths of S/D generally are less pronounced due to less team organization, in which case a D/P thief can often be more successful.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Traxal.2745:

Thanks for the replies. Sizer is good for sure, and could make sword/no OH look good. I’m trying to make sense of it for the common thief like me.

So if boon steal is that effective, does 3 skill get the most use? For the evade and boon steal?

No, you only need LS and Steal, but need to trait for Bountiful Theft.

Let’s say I saw a Guardian with 12 stacks of Might running with his Warrior buddy with also 12 stacks of Might. What I do is, use Flanking Strike out somewhere — no target is preferred.

Then I pre-cast Larcenous Strike -> Steal from the Guardian -> Switch target to Warrior -> Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike -> dodge roll = Easy 25 stacks of Might.

EDIT:
Minor clarification. Bountiful Theft will steal Aegis from the Guardian first, so that you can steal the Might stacks with Larcenous Strike.

I thought boon stealing only steals one stack of it? Please clarify this for me

90% of thieves I cross both in soloq and wvw are still playing d/p, this thread is confounding to me

Lamuness.3570:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Traxal.2745:

Thanks for the replies. Sizer is good for sure, and could make sword/no OH look good. I’m trying to make sense of it for the common thief like me.

So if boon steal is that effective, does 3 skill get the most use? For the evade and boon steal?

No, you only need LS and Steal, but need to trait for Bountiful Theft.

Let’s say I saw a Guardian with 12 stacks of Might running with his Warrior buddy with also 12 stacks of Might. What I do is, use Flanking Strike out somewhere — no target is preferred.

Then I pre-cast Larcenous Strike -> Steal from the Guardian -> Switch target to Warrior -> Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike -> dodge roll = Easy 25 stacks of Might.

EDIT:
Minor clarification. Bountiful Theft will steal Aegis from the Guardian first, so that you can steal the Might stacks with Larcenous Strike.

I thought boon stealing only steals one stack of it? Please clarify this for me

Larcenous strike will take Full stacks (so if a warrior has 25 stacks of might you will take them all)
Bountiful theft on the other hand will only give you 1 stack of might. (instead of all 25)

Dee Jay.2460:

Because Sizer.

That’s the best and most accurate explanation you’ll get.

Not everyone stops and thinks if the build makes sense for them, in their particular situation. I assume Sizer ran that build because it helped him keep up with some of the insanely bunkerish builds that dominate the tournament scene. Normal glass-cannon builds (D/P, S/P) just can’t keep up with these bunkers who also apply consistent pressure via auto-attack and conditions. S/D has quite a lot of sustain. It also gives you the great utility from Trickery both with boon-stripping and on-demand interrupts, which are very useful in team-fights. Sizer also said that S/D is simply his favorite build to play so there’s that to consider too.

But frankly I don’t think this build is really ideal for everyone to run in every situation. S/D is as close as a Thief gets to running a bunker build without ruining his role.

But if you watched the tournament there will still plenty of S/P Thieves running around. It’s still a perfectly viable set, just less forgiving than before and not nearly as strong against the whole bunker-meta as before.

People kitten the power of a build based on 1v1 situations, and S/D performs quite well in that aspect. And until that changes it will remain a popular build, even if other builds suit the Thief’s role better.

Totally agree with you on that one. I use S/D and have done for ages, and any decent PVP will know a build will end up fine tuned to suit each players style of play. Looking up builds is a good place when you start PVP, so you at least have some decent framework to build upon. But after some time, you will want to do your own personal build.

OP: The reason is simple, a few things are pretty aggressive in PVP that mean S/D fits perfectly for that role.

1. Necros, some warriors, rangers, engies and even mesmers all rock out condition builds. Thus making the Sword number 2 useful as hell, plus the evade is nice as you can dodge applications as well as normal damage during them.

2. BOONS!, OMG THE BOONS! This is the reason thiefs have lots of boon stripping powers. Guards are the worst for it by far, the only way your going to bring them down is taking them boons from them. Same reason necros have tools to destroy or convert boons on the target.

3 Dagger is single target, Sword is cleave. Mesmers hate cleaves for the most part. Also, when people all rush mid point, its nice to have some extra pressure on the enemy team.

Highlie.7641:

Larcenous strike will take Full stacks (so if a warrior has 25 stacks of might you will take them all)
Bountiful theft on the other hand will only give you 1 stack of might. (instead of all 25)

Weird thing is I tested this last night, I had a friend empower on his guardian and I stole from him, I stole the whole stack of 12 might. Maybe they consider might stacks as one whole stack?

I’ve though that we had sorted this out already.
Larcenous Strike steals entire boon from the target e.g. 15 stacks of might for 14 seconds; 30 seconds of fury etc..
Bountiful Theft steals one stack of might for 3-5 seconds depending on boon duration; 3-5 seconds of fury etc..

D/P kind of died off this patch. At least in NA you’ll see quite a few of them but that set’s effectiveness has diminished certainly. What I’m really surprised with is how s/p died off completely. None of the nerfs could be attributed to it. It really shows how fickle the community is. S/D is about as strong as it’s been in recent months and most the thieves used it in ToL so there you go….

Lamuness.3570:

Highlie.7641:

Larcenous strike will take Full stacks (so if a warrior has 25 stacks of might you will take them all)
Bountiful theft on the other hand will only give you 1 stack of might. (instead of all 25)

Weird thing is I tested this last night, I had a friend empower on his guardian and I stole from him, I stole the whole stack of 12 might. Maybe they consider might stacks as one whole stack?

I’ve brought this up with devs a few times and found that this is intended.

When you “steal” a boon with Bountiful Theft, it strips 2 boons from the target, and then gives you/your allies a similar boon with a set duration. If you steal a Stability from a Lich Form or something, it doesn’t give you the stability.

The process is the following:
1. Rips off Stability from the target
2. Creates a new stability boon for yourself and nearby allies that lasts 3’ish seconds.

Larcenous Strike (and almost every other boon-steal skill) on the other hand directly steals the boon from the opponent.

This was apparently made for balance reasons and because Bountiful Theft also buffs allies in the area. Think about stealing 25 stacks of might for your team, or like 20 seconds of Stability from Rampage as One for your entire party. Talk about OP.

On the other hand, Bountiful Theft is the only boon-rip that prioritizes Stability, so it is still pretty awesome.