Guild Wars 2

Gutts.8791:

Demonts.4593:

Killshot is 1.5 times backstab damage and from range. In a teamfight thieves cant even get a backstab off anyways. Ive played every class in pvp and thief, ele and hgh engineer are by far the hardest. Backstab doesnt even hit that hard. If a warrior woulda done the same thing as the thief with killshot it would been 20k damage instead of 13k.

Good thing it takes about 3 hours to cast then and he’s not in stealth when he’s casting it

Eviscerate has a skill multiplier or 3 while backstab has a multiplier of 2.4. Not arguing if either is overpowered or not. Both (usually) require some sort of setup to land.

Demonts.4593:

Lol warriros and everything else can hit as hard or sometimes harder if you go all out in DPS. This is not only thieves. In fact warriors can have 2.5k plus armor and hit way harder

but that warrior will get squished and have no where near the escape means. Ran into a thief like this last night…Playing necro with 27k health. Never saw him coming, just 10k BS, 6k CnD, 6K HS, usually lightning proc in there…if he didn’t drop me by landing all crits I then got him to 25% and poof off he went….to reset and try again. So he either popped in dropping me or poofed out at 25% either way the party never had time to catch him.

Now a warrior sure could rush in and drop a ton of damage…but he won’t survive getting back out. + you will see him coming and can prep… lay down marks/wells

sorrow.2364:

Steelo.4597:

i know plenty of warriors and other classes who laugh at anything on the forums, but when they get asked for a duel they refuse and you never hear of them again. some difference between having a big mouth on the forum because they killed a few noobs in wvw and actually having a clue about whats possible, only lots of experience teaches what kind of broken builds are possible in wvw, you need to fight them first to see it. i dont know man.. you call 17k+ instant damage out of stealth on a 3.2k armor guy balanced? seriously.. if you read through this thread you can see that this kind of damage is still far from the maximum you can do as a thief and 3.2-3.3k armor is about what you get with every piece of exotic gear having toughness stat on it.

btw there is an edit button, you dont have to make a new post everytime you come up with a new thought.

Want to talk about Kill Shot and Eviscerate?
WvWvW has never and will ever be balanced by design. Deal with that.

lets talk about the warrior with a rifle staring at you for an hour before he does anything, or lets talk about the warrior hugging you before he does anything.
not to mention they have to build adrenaline before they can even do those skills to the fullest usually blowing some utility to do that.

now lets compare that to an invisible thief thats impossible to notice. and still has ultimate control of the fight if his burst fails.

Dagraan.2854:

lets talk about the warrior with a rifle staring at you for an hour before he does anything, or lets talk about the warrior hugging you before he does anything.
not to mention they have to build adrenaline before they can even do those skills to the fullest usually blowing some utility to do that.

now lets compare that to an invisible thief thats impossible to notice. and still has ultimate control of the fight if his burst fails.

Ok, now let’s talk about the fact that Kill Shot is a 1500 range skill, while backstab is a close range skill that deals the maximum damage only if you manage to land it from behind.

Let’s talk also about the fact that Eviscerate is a leap.

Let’s talk also about the fact that both Eviscerate and Kill Shot deals way higher damage compared to backstab.

Build adrenaline? You can build adrenaline on every thrash mob you find around in WvWvW and you won’t never run out of it, since most of those high crit builds run with 30 in discipline.

I’m not defending the instagib builds, they are unbalanced (and available only in WvWvW, guess why). It’s just that a warrior complaining about instagib is stupid, trying to defend the warrior instagib while blaming the thief’s instagib is even more stupid.

sorrow.2364:

Ok, now let’s talk about the fact that Kill Shot is a 1500 range skill, while backstab is a close range skill that deals the maximum damage only if you manage to land it from behind.

Let’s talk also about the fact that Eviscerate is a leap.

One has a 3 second cast time (read: forever), is easily dodgeable and the other has a whooping range of 300.
Not to mention that Kill Shot is widely derided on this forum by the warriors themselves, so you’ll rarely have to face it. Even then, the time I was actually hit by a Kill Shot since launch was last month, because of unfortunate timing (Savage Leap animation+aftercast delay mad it impossible for me to move in time).

Fact is, Kill Shot is VERY VERY situational.

Maugetarr.6823:

Gutts.8791:

Demonts.4593:

Killshot is 1.5 times backstab damage and from range. In a teamfight thieves cant even get a backstab off anyways. Ive played every class in pvp and thief, ele and hgh engineer are by far the hardest. Backstab doesnt even hit that hard. If a warrior woulda done the same thing as the thief with killshot it would been 20k damage instead of 13k.

Good thing it takes about 3 hours to cast then and he’s not in stealth when he’s casting it

Eviscerate has a skill multiplier or 3 while backstab has a multiplier of 2.4. Not arguing if either is overpowered or not. Both (usually) require some sort of setup to land.

One can be used every 3-4 seconds, is instant cast and you can’t see or attack your target to fight against it. It cures Weakness or Blind because of curing while in stealth.

One can be used every 7-10 seconds, is highly telegraphed and a long wind up and can easily be avoided or used things like weakness/blind.

The Shadow Arts line is pretty OP. Its why I play only thief in WvWvW. ((Thief was my first Character.))

However, I think Swords and other things should be buffed in thief.

People complains about killshot.. Im actually not sure if im sleeping or not, or if i am on the right game forum..

Ok i understand whats going on – im drunk yeaaah

WOOOO!!!! Score! A thief angel gets his wings every time a QQ thread starts.

Let me guess. Was this a little asuran thief, all in blue?

Yeah, that was me. My build info – which is pretty much boilerplate for a dps d/d thief:
25/30/x/x/15
Running signet use = 5 stacks of might
Zerker armor + scholar runes
half zerker half valk trinkets
1 ascended zerker dagger, 1 exotic, Sigil of force
25 stacks of bloodlust.

I went all out on you – popped 2 sigils (one being assassin’s signet) for +10 might, and you can see the rest in the log.

So for the record, this is pretty much the max I can do. Plus I’m sitting at 13k hps, which is almost 7k less than you. I die fast.

That being said, I came here for advice on starting a warrior, because I’ve had my butt handed to me by some warriors recently and I want to give it a try.

Kincaidia.3192:

So for the record, this is pretty much the max I can do.

You could have crit your heartseeker….

Do you need to do more when you can drop a tank?

I pulled that same rotation on another warrior and I took about half off. I’m not sure what the difference is, but I’d like to find out.

I’ll be starting a warrior tonight.

You ever watch Sniper Charrzooka?

It makes that backstab look like nothing.

kroven.4895:

You ever watch Sniper Charrzooka?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5FiSGEhyxM

It makes that backstab look like nothing.

Do u really comparing killshots on upscaled noobs to 3,2k armor? I don’t know what to say, also ty for showing up how long it takes to fire off killshot anyway. Now just tell us if u don’t know how to dodge one

Steelo.4597:

Armor has no diminishing returns.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-legitimate-discussion-about-toughness

Thieves with full ascended and using all stackable power buffs from sigils, wvw masteries and whatever (orbs >.<) – hit kitten hard. Because of their stealth mechanism they can go full out damage and still get out of anything. the class has been considered broken for a long time, yet the devs did nothing about it – 4 seconds reveal after attacking is their solution – so you have 4 seconds to kill the thief (while he can dodge / stunbreak at will) or he will reset the fight, its just – great design! The devs totally know what they are doing, thats why there is a very livid competitive scene in gw2. cough cough sorry about the sarcasm, just move on and find your peace in blaming the lamest assassin design a popular game has ever seen in history.

It is quite Obvious,

don’t you think!

you are not alone in this.

100% x 100% Accurate.

why do people go for critical damage over chance. Critical chance is always better then critical damage.

lchan.2169:

why do people go for critical damage over chance. Critical chance is always better then critical damage.

except when it isn’t

#math

lchan.2169:

why do people go for critical damage over chance. Critical chance is always better then critical damage.

Faux Sheaux.6179:

I was wrong. This is the most layman I can put it.

• Anything above or to the right of the ladder will get more benefit from adding CC than CD
• Anything in the ladder gets the same befenfit from adding CC as it will from adding CD
• Anything below or to the left of the ladder will get more benefit from adding CD than CC

You will also notice that for any given sum CC+CD, the boxed values are the maximum amounts you can get for all combinations of CC and CD (all values diagonal to the box running from the bottom-left to top-right).

Cheers.

From the ranger forums a few months ago

I have seen the graph and the explanation from the ranger forum doesn’t mean anything (what ladder to the left and right…etc). The graph regardless is just to read the multiplied damage during crits that are attainable. Nothing more. What I am saying is why do people push CD over CC. High CC and low CD is much better then High CD and low CC. Also, with high CC, you get a lot more crits happening. And with a lot more crits, you get the trait your character to benefit from these crits that happen so open.

A clear example is when my ranger crits. Its got a base of 60% CC and 50 CD. I crit so often that I can give my pet up to an additional 200-250 power via might. When I was running rampager, my CC was 95+ with buffs with CD remaining the same. The damage and sound it gave off was intoxicating. A guaranteed 8 out of 10 hits were criticals.

Well you didn’t qualify it before. All you said was crit chance is always better than crit damage. On all 3 of my 80’s, including the engineer, I only have 1 trait that procs on crit: the 20% chance to gain 1 initiative on my thief. I don’t like leaving things up to random chance (too much so at least), so I’m much more interested in the breakover point on this chart.

There actually is a slight issue with that graph, it kinda assumes crit chance and crit dmg can be attained in 5% increments that can be swapped. You might be in a spot where 5% more crit chance does more than 5% more crit dmg, but the piece of gear you’re deciding on might be 1% crit chance or 2% crit dmg (ie. boots/gloves/shoulders).

Look at this threat This guy did the math to figure out how to maximize your damage Output
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/players/Damage-Power-Precision-and-Golden-Ratios/first#post2851306

Half your problem is that you are a warrior and only have 19+/- K health….in WvW, to boot.

Hi, I’m the backstab thief linked earlier. I just though you might want to take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1do5naLmU

Basically, my warrior actually hits higher in sPvP than my thief does in WvW.

Thieves are OP.

yski.7642:

Hi, I’m the backstab thief linked earlier. I just though you might want to take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1do5naLmU

Basically, my warrior actually hits higher in sPvP than my thief does in WvW.

Sure they CAN hit harder, but look at the difference between the two in setting up said damage.

Warrior;
~Has to build to full adrenaline
~Has to charge a 1.5 second cast
~Has to land the hit
~has to hope it’s a crit

Thief;
~Has to be in stealth (loads of stealth options)
~Has to be behind/at side of target (not hard when you’re invisible)

Warrior takes longer to get that damage, and then they have to land a critical hit on an attack that is extremely easy to see coming. Thieves can backstab much, much more frequently.

If you look at the combat log the whole combo (which is out of stealth) does like 20k damage ON A 3.3K ARMOR TARGET. so how high do your killshots go on that kind of armor? and you write in the vid you kept your health below 50% to get 20% more damage? this is just a random screenshot from wvw, not your super uber highest damage scores ever.. and it does even beat those killshots and isnt even super high for a what a thief could really do AND is on a high armor target. look here a thief hitting higher then your warrior with just backstab http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WPnhX27wrg yay for big numbers.

Zach.3264:

—snip—

If it’s my builds we’re talking about, your list is slightly off..

Thief:
~ Uses the healing skill, all utilities, the elite and half of its initiative to do the spike.
~ Must NOT be in stealth at the beginning of the burst ( Steal -> CnD -> Backstab. And for the record, the only source of stealth on the build is CnD)
~ Takes 2 and 1/4 seconds to set up (Signet of malice 1 and 1/4 seconds + Basilisk Venom 1s)
~ Also has to get a crit. For that kind of damage you need executioner, so it is NOT an automatical crit.
~ Melee range
~ After popping the signets, has a 5 second window to burst

Warrior, on the other hand, has 1500 range and needs to sacrifice one skill to gain full adrenaline. Even if you fail the spike, you can simply wait ten seconds and shoot again.

You should also keep in mind it’s just the burst we’re talking about here. Not getting killed with a 4 signet d/d thief is a form of art..

Steelo.4597:

—snip—

There’s a 17k crit on a warrior in my video, and that’s sPvP we’re talking about. As for the video you linked, look at the date. Both backstab and Assassin’s signet have been nerfed since then.

well i was just reading the thief forum and look at that, many threads complaining about backstap being OP and a cheap mechanic – from thieves. these are just 2 i picked up on page 1 most recent posts.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/True-thieves-are-suffering/

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-burst-UP/

i dont even know why killshot is being mentioned if not for the high possible numbers. have you ever seen a killshot-QQ-thread? i havent in a long time, because no warrior runs zerker rifle in WvW, just for the fact he will be instagibbed by thieves all day long. actually no class except mesmer can run zerker just because of the thief class, its how the condi meta came into existence in the first place because only as a condi build you can have toughness not to get instagibbed and do some damage aswell – well, screenshot proves full exotic toughness isnt enough to prevent instagib by a wvw thief.. but still.

well i was just reading the thief forum and look at that, many threads complaining about backstap being OP and a cheap mechanic – from thieves. these are just 2 i picked up on page 1 most recent posts.

Fortus plays an elementalist, FYI.

It’s just elementalist complaining about thieves. They also complain about warriors more. Because warrior is more OP.

well actually you are not so tanky, i reach 3780 armor and i’m not full ascended,i miss back and one earring, by the way, yes a thief here is too much to effort in a fair 1vs1,it just blow you up..shoud be better have a chance if it’s possible stop is stealth for a while with some skill to balance.

Hold on, are you complaining about thief burst builds or thieves in general?

To deal the kind of burst I’m dealing you give up so much it’s not even viable and definitely not OP. Most of the complaints I’ve seen are about D/P thieves (or S/D, though that’s not relevant for Backstab discussion), and that’s a far more defensive set than D/D.

It’s not the burst people have a problem with there, it’s the high damage combined with the high survivability in form of blinds, interrupts and stealth. Nerfing backstab wouldn’t really fix that but it would be pretty brutal to D/D builds.

As a side note, the threads you linked are both made by the same elementalist player.

The OP speaks the truth, backstab still needs some rework, I was running a toughness/condition damage (2k toughness, 18K hp). I was doing fine, without noticing a huge drop with my health until a D/D Thief came out of nowhere. I thought I could resist a little but just a few stealth (like 1 or 2) and I was low hp or already on the floor.
It was the only ennemy I was afraid of in the entire map. Needless to say it’s a pain to find a moment to make some damage with all the blinds/stealth/dodges/skill evades (Heartseeker/Death Blossom etc.).
And that’s coming from someone who owns a lvl 80 Thief.

Scar.1793:

The OP speaks the truth, backstab still needs some rework, I was running a toughness/condition damage (2k toughness, 18K hp). I was doing fine, without noticing a huge drop with my health until a D/D Thief came out of nowhere. I thought I could resist a little but just a few stealth (like 1 or 2) and I was low hp or already on the floor.
It was the only ennemy I was afraid of in the entire map. Needless to say it’s a pain to find a moment to make some damage with all the blinds/stealth/dodges/skill evades (Heartseeker/Death Blossom etc.).
And that’s coming from someone who owns a lvl 80 Thief.

D/D thieves aren’t even viable these days.

It’s hard as a D/D thief. I die a LOT. But I simply refuse to play a P/P or a P/D thief who is invisible most of the time. I’ve played against it, and it’s the furthest thing from fun.

Heck, I even avoid the sword, because the jumping all over the place can wreak havoc if you have sub-par ping, any server lag, etc.

At least I’m visible 90% of the time – I think it’s a fair trade for having the toughness of tissue paper.

Kincaidia.3192:

It’s hard as a D/D thief. I die a LOT. But I simply refuse to play a P/P or a P/D thief who is invisible most of the time. I’ve played against it, and it’s the furthest thing from fun.

Heck, I even avoid the sword, because the jumping all over the place can wreak havoc if you have sub-par ping, any server lag, etc.

At least I’m visible 90% of the time – I think it’s a fair trade for having the toughness of tissue paper.

P/P thief who is invisible most of the time.

Wat?

Excalibur.9748:

I don’t want to hear thief QQ from the most OP class in the game.

A class which hits from complete invisibility for five digit damage in under a second, and who can escape at any time for any reason without fear of being stopped due to obscene stealth and mobility…is calling warrior OP.

How is it even possible to be this incompetent?

It’s simple.
When you hear the “clang” of CnD you hit Endure Pain then just burst him to death.

Then do this

I don’t understand why players think stealth is so powerful. You can still auto attack and AOE to hit the thief. Stealth is only there to position a stealth attack or run away (with the few exceptions on traits to build might or heal). The warrior has access to the same tools to escape fights as well. I fought a Sword/Shield + GS warrior and after a good portion of the fight he was close to dying and presumably out of utilities or options to continue the fight. He turn and ran with WW, Rush, and Savage Leap just fine. WW out to evade any type of CC/snare, rush to gain distance, SL x2, then swap back to GS to rinse and repeat.

The two classes have the options for mobility but if it doesn’t fit your play style or weapon choice why do the devs have to accommodate your choice? They give options for a reason and each weapon/weapon combination has strengths and weaknesses. You can’t have it all.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

You can still auto attack and AOE to hit the thief.

The exceptions of course being
-thieves smart enough to use mobility skills in any random direction
-weapon sets that are trashy when the game doesn’t have a target to actually aim at

Player Character.9467:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

You can still auto attack and AOE to hit the thief.

The exceptions of course being
-thieves smart enough to use mobility skills in any random direction
-weapon sets that are trashy when the game doesn’t have a target to actually aim at

True but there are other options than standing there waiting for the thief to make his move. Moving around always helps reduce damage of backstab for instance. Can’t tell you how many times I thought I lined up a backstab only to hit them in the front for half the damage. Thieve’s worst nightmare is conditions as we lack bulk condition removal. Thieves get 1 when they enter stealth then 1 after 3 seconds(with the trait of course). How many thieves wait out the three seconds only giving them 1 second to pull off a stealth attack? The patient ones but this is more time for the target to react and cooldowns to reset further. We also have shadowstep which is our stun breaker and cleanses three but if we blow that any CC will be our death. Infiltrator’s strike cures 1. We do have options but the most readily accessible one is Shadow’s Embrace.

Glass cannon thiefs are fearsome just yesterday i met some of them

i was so lucky on this one , <3 Stomp also Aegis from Lyssa runes saved me from sure death on his last hit.

the problem with thiefs that they can get away with this due to stealth , if a warrior want to go pure Glass cannon he has no defense other than Mobility but Stealth > Mobility.

imagine 5 VS 5 with this thief in , he can capitalize on his friends for distraction and do all work by himself taking enemies one by one in no time .

lol what saved you is that he didnt crit on heartseeker xD

maybe because earlier i spent some 20g on Zommoros’s MF he might blessed me with some Legendary luck xD

Juba.8406:

Glass cannon thiefs are fearsome just yesterday i met some of them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfNQQ6YZ7r4

i was so lucky on this one , <3 Stomp also Aegis from Lyssa runes saved me from sure death on his last hit.

the problem with thiefs that they can get away with this due to stealth , if a warrior want to go pure Glass cannon he has no defense other than Mobility but Stealth > Mobility.

imagine 5 VS 5 with this thief in , he can capitalize on his friends for distraction and do all work by himself taking enemies one by one in no time .

Would be safe to assume you are not packing high toughness with your spec as well.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Would be safe to assume you are not packing high toughness with your spec as well.

Pretty much.
When you are glass cannon vs glass cannon, the one who hits first usually wins, without considering some exceptions.

sorrow.2364:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Would be safe to assume you are not packing high toughness with your spec as well.

Pretty much.
When you are glass cannon vs glass cannon, the one who hits first usually wins, without considering some exceptions.

Yep.

Knight armor , 2.5K armor.

Juba.8406:

Knight armor , 2.5K armor.

You really can notice a different in 2800+

My thief can survive the average non-GC Skullcrack + 100B at full health and he has nearly 2900 armor.

FOR THE LAST TIME PEOPLE, this was not intended to be a freaking QQ thread, and it’s starting to kitten me off that it’s impossible to post anything on these forums without getting flamed. I know very well that I’m far from pro, and I don’t need you nimrods to remind of that fact. To those of you who actually answered/added onto this discussion in a non-condescending kittenish way I thank and salute you.

Quakeman.9378:

FOR THE LAST TIME PEOPLE, this was not intended to be a freaking QQ thread, and it’s starting to kitten me off that it’s impossible to post anything on these forums without getting flamed. I know very well that I’m far from pro, and I don’t need you nimrods to remind of that fact. To those of you who actually answered/added onto this discussion in a non-condescending kittenish way I thank and salute you.

As someone who has had a great time reading this thread and laughing at the false claims by those QQing, a salute to you for simply asking questions and not QQing.

In future, I suggest that you post this in the Thief forum itself. You will be surprised at the amount of supportive posts you will get explaining and giving you advice if you post to ask a question and not to QQ. Posting it in any other class forum is a mistake because most of the answers are “because Thief is OP”, as seen here.

Excalibur.9748:

kill shot OP!

inb4 L2DodgeNoob

Like omg L2typeproper english like seriously omg, ttylbblcul8ter.