Guild Wars 2

It seems like one change is all that it would take to prevent warriors from being pigeon holed into the Discipline tree, however it might not be that simple…Lets look at the facts. The only meta spec that a warrior has that does not use weapon swap and the discipline specialization whether it be PvP, PvE or WvW, is Phalanx Strength warrior. Every other meta spec — All PvP conquest , all WvW frontline metas/backline/roaming, and all PvE, use Discipline weapon swap because it provides the most utility, DPS and use of sigils.

Source: www.metabattle.com – Lots of haters for this site, but it is the most widely used and popular website for finding GW2 specs.

The proven top warrior players of every single aspect of the game, no matter what game mode they decide to play, spec almost religiously into discipline for a MINOR trait. The warrior community seems to have come to a collective decision to support this decision/religion as well. Discipline seems like it is a proven must, it’s been over three years for us to learn this.

On a personal level: I’ve been playing for three years, I main warrior, I have 2 of them, both in full ascended gear. I am preparing for ranked queues and I am VERY excited for raids. Berserker has great potential in BOTH of these environments. There are also very cool, new and upgraded traits in both the Arms and Defense specializations. I want to use these abilities Anet has implemented and play with them to make the very best spec I can possibly make. However I can’t do that because I am extremely limited to Discipline tree, leaving me only 2 available tree’s left to pick from and If I want to use the new specialization, I only have 1 tree to pick from. This gets even worse in conquest because warriors are also forced into the Defense specialization as well (all sPvP meta builds use the defense tree, there has never, in the history of GW2, been a meta sPvP spec for warrior that does NOT utilize the defense tree ). So as it stands, in SPvP if I want to create a Berserker build, I am pigeon holed/forced (for Berserker) into Discipline, Defense and Berserker.

I have followed the warrior forms since I started playing. I know this subject is VERY prevalent in the warrior community and that I am almost literally beating a dead horse. I am not demanding a change and I am not begging for a change. I want to bring up the discussion once again and lay down the facts. Now that Berserker has been somewhat tested and nothing in the warrior meta seems to be changing, can we brainstorm and come up with a solution that helps the warrior become more flexible?
Maybe making 5 second weapon swap passive is the solution, maybe it’s not?

This all being said, try my Berserker sPvP build that does not use the discipline tree trololol. It was what brought up this discussion/problem in my brain to begin with. Tell me how you like it compared to other specs that use Discipline.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAsfTnMdAVhglhAmkCElilpA7YAGAGZIPuIQs7d1+artA-TZRHwABOFAAOCACeAAd2f4YZAA

Edited for wording and spelling.

As you note, this has been brought up many times.

The general consensus is that Fast Hands is the one practically indispensable trait on an otherwise excellent Discipline traitline.

Since all warriors already run Fast Hands, making it baseline should lead to relatively little power creep but open up much more potential for build diversity.

That’s pretty much it. A simple change that shouldn’t throw off balance, but would increase the fun in playing the class (and playing against it, imo).

People have been saying that Fast Hands should be an acknowledged Warrior class mechanic forever.

Anet has no doubt heard these suggestions but has been very careful not to comment on it. I don’t understand why. There should be no trait in the game that literally every single build – regardless of gametype – WANTS to use. Hell, even the PS warrior would take it if they could.

I think it’s just bad design that restricts creativity and build diversity.

Let’s take a look at the mesmer. Before the big patch every mesmer had to run Illusionary Persona if they ran a shatter build. The trait was so mandatory that it limited build diversity so they made it baseline.

Now you can actually make a shatter build without Illusions trait line, which opens so many build variations for the mesmer. The question is now: why don’t we apply the same logic to other professions? (Like warrior)

it’s not only fast hands which is needed baseline. also gaining adrenalin each weapon swap is super important.
Especally with berserk specialization it is necesarry to get enough adrenalin – without that trait it would be terrible.

So even if fast hands would be baseline, you will have to trait discipline anyway just to handle the amount of adrenalin.

And pls don’t tell me now I have to play with signet of fury or to the limit etc.

dominik.9721:

it’s not only fast hands which is needed baseline. also gaining adrenalin each weapon swap is super important.
Especally with berserk specialization it is necesarry to get enough adrenalin – without that trait it would be terrible.

So even if fast hands would be baseline, you will have to trait discipline anyway just to handle the amount of adrenalin.

And pls don’t tell me now I have to play with signet of fury or to the limit etc.

Adrenalin generation isn’t the problem really. Also, discipline will stay a viable trait line even without FH. With berserker you can use rage elite to gain instant acces to berserk and your burst skill.

Like OP has pointed out, FH is so integrated in the Warrior playstyle that a build without discipline line is very rare. It’s just that some traits are split up in weird lines (why isn’t 100% crit on burst in discpline (the Original burst line but in Arms?))

Walkure.9056:

dominik.9721:

it’s not only fast hands which is needed baseline. also gaining adrenalin each weapon swap is super important.
Especally with berserk specialization it is necesarry to get enough adrenalin – without that trait it would be terrible.

So even if fast hands would be baseline, you will have to trait discipline anyway just to handle the amount of adrenalin.

And pls don’t tell me now I have to play with signet of fury or to the limit etc.

Adrenalin generation isn’t the problem really. Also, discipline will stay a viable trait line even without FH. With berserker you can use rage elite to gain instant acces to berserk and your burst skill.

Like OP has pointed out, FH is so integrated in the Warrior playstyle that a build without discipline line is very rare. It’s just that some traits are split up in weird lines (why isn’t 100% crit on burst in discpline (the Original burst line but in Arms?))

Agreed, I’m running a Berserker build and I have absolutely no issue building adrenaline right now. Warriors have plenty of ways to create Adrenaline. Almost every tree has a trait that helps you get what you need and if there isn’t one there are utilities that do it. Berserker’s Fury and Cleansing ire give me all the passive Adren i need right now In my current build.

I doubt that you have run berserk without discipline traitline ,so how can you say that you don’t have problems?
A lot of traits which help to get adrenalin? If you drop discipline you have only cleansing irse and a weak trait in arms which isn’t even worth to think about to get that help you to gain faster adrenalin – and you are missing both then ! – burst mastery AND weapon swap adrenalin.

And pls don’t tell me that head but would be a good way to get adrenalin. It misses with a 80% chance thanks to random blinds/blocks/dodges/etc and also works only melee with an obvious animation. It’s even less reliable than bullcharge.

You even lack in adrenalin if you are playing without cleansing irse/burst mastery.
You are defintly undertestimating what lack of adrenlin it will cause if you don’t get it with each weaponswap.
How many times did you survived with 800hp only because you swapped to longbow, got some adrenalin and removed the conditions with f1? How many times did you kill some thiefs by swapping weapons and hitting him with eviscerate in the last second?
I would say 50% of your adrenalin infight comes from swapping weapons - as I said you guys are defintly undertestimating it

And since rage skills,signet of fury and to the limit are bs you have not much options.

Imo both discipline minor traits ( 5s weapon swap + getting adrenalin with swapping) have to be baseline – other than that it’s not even worth considering to drop this traitline which is the only reason why people are demanding fast hands being baseline.

I don’t know, dominik, for you to be pulling 50% of your adren from weapon swapping, it means you aren’t reaching a full bar until the 15-20s mark of a fight. I don’t run Cleansing Ire or Furious, nor use any utility that fills the bar, and I always have full adren within 10s or less when wvw roaming or havoc.

Presumably you’d run CI or Furious (the Arms trait you referred to) if you weren’t running Discipline and found you needed the extra boost. Berserker’s Might also gives you just over 3/5 the adren that Versatile Rage gives you, even if you’re swapping immediately on CD (more if you’re not).

You could also opt for utilities that give you adren like To The Limit, Signet of Fury, Signet of Rage, Berserker Stance, Headbutt, and probably others I’m forgetting.

When actually in Berserker mode, don’t you only need 10 adren to get a burst? That’s pretty trivial. Ten hits, assuming no traits or utilities.

While I certainly wouldn’t turn my nose up at free adren on swap, I don’t personally see it as necessary with all the options available.

50% is probably too much, indeed.And ye you have more opportunities to get adrenalin – for example with vigorous shouts etc.
Should be baseline like getting adrenalin by hitting the enemy, tho. I tried Berserk -Shoutbow (where I get adrenalin each shout) without discipline line and the adrenalin lack is just massive.
It felt like I could use my burst skills only half as often as before. And I still think that making fast hands won’t provide more build diversity just because of missing so much adrenalin. But we’ll see.

Walkure.9056:

Let’s take a look at the mesmer. Before the big patch every mesmer had to run Illusionary Persona if they ran a shatter build. The trait was so mandatory that it limited build diversity so they made it baseline.

Now you can actually make a shatter build without Illusions trait line, which opens so many build variations for the mesmer. The question is now: why don’t we apply the same logic to other professions? (Like warrior)

I made a post about this as well. thank you

I’ve pleaded in favour of making Fast Hands baseline for a while now but I think people, for some reason I can’t really explain, are afraid of this change.

But I agree with you when you say that in the current state of the game, it would be a welcome change which would not (imo) jeopardise the balance of the class.

The problem is, GW2 community is essentially made by lazy whiners who are unwilling to adapt or look for ways to overcome any given obstacle. They never question themselves (90% of the nerfs this game has known could have been avoided with a more skilled community, generally speaking).
All this to say that, from that perspective, 5 seconds weapon-swap is perceived as an unfair advantage warriors have and I don’t think that, no matter how much I’d like it, it’s going to be baseline soon.

Just look at what they did to D/D elementalists, Anet always find a complex and non logical way to address the issues that could be resolved with more simplicity and practicality…

As for now, people are clearly underwhelmed by the Berserker new Elite Spec according to the feedbacks (let alone the condi spec and the bugged Gun Flame), since it forces you to choose this mediocre line over one of the three essential lines that you currently can’t give up if you want some DPS. And a Berserker with less DPS than his big brother Warrior is not really a Berserker, right ? So I don’t know how they’re going to make up for it (if they are…) but I honestly don’t think Fast Hands baseline is even considered…

I’ve said this before, purely from a lore perspective, there is nothing that really makes the Warrior the so-called “weapon master” he’s supposed to be.

Yes, we may have more options than other classes. Big deal, you still wield two weapon sets, all the rest is in your inventory at best. It would make sense to allow us to either have three active weapon sets to switch between (impossible to balance at this point) or just allow us to switch faster between two sets (ding ding ding!) to set us apart from other classes in baseline.

For the record, I mostly play PS in PvE and don’t spec Discipline. I still miss not having Fast Hands in certain situations, even though I couldn’t care less about the rest of that line.

I support this change. The trait is all but mandatory in most situations.

Well actually, it’s even worse than “most situations”. In my opinion, there is only one build that’s viable without requiring Fast Hands : PvE Phalanx Strength. All other builds I know require Fast Hands to be competitive.

Fast Hands needs to be baseline to increase build diversity.

Brawler’s Recovery is also critical to many builds, but alternative condi cleanse needs added into the game.

Make Signet of Cleansing available in PvP. Test to see if making it clear 2 conditions is viable… Condi application VASTLY outpaces condition cleanse in this game anyway.

Add resistance or some other condition mitigation into the Berserker trait line.

Those 3 things would be a huge help to make Berserker more viable.