Guild Wars 2

Many players are concerned that Cleansing Ire is a “black hole” trait—that it will almost always be chosen over Last Stand or Cull the Weak. Here is a possible solution to that problem:

1) Replace the minor trait Thick Skin with: “Embrace the Pain (Gain adrenaline when hit.).”
This replaces a useless minor trait with something useful, thematically synergizes with the other minor traits (Adrenal Health and Spiked Armor), and gives warriors the freedom to choose any of the three master traits without sacrificing that essential adrenaline gain.

2) Change Cleansing Ire to: “Remove a condition for every bar of adrenaline spent when you hit with a burst skill.”
The adrenaline-gaining ability of the trait has been moved to Embrace the Pain.

3) Change Cull the Weak to: “Increases damage to weakened foes by 10%. Striking a foe below the health threshold (50%) inflicts weakness (3 sec.).”
Applying weakness earlier in the fight is stronger and, with the damage increase, makes this trait a more attractive choice.

I think these changes would give warriors more of a real choice for their Defense master trait: Cleansing Ire, for a condition meta; Last Stand, for a CC meta; and Cull the Weak for a DPS meta.

6/14/2015

To address the concern that all warrior builds are dependent on Cleansing Ire (and thus, the Defense trait line), I propose the following fix:

4) Make Sigil of Cleansing legal in PVP.
Fast Hands + Brawler’s Recovery + Sigil of Cleansing = Remove 3 conditions every 10 seconds.

Pros:
1) Does not depend on the Defense trait line (i.e. Cleansing Ire).
2) Does not depend on adrenaline.
3) Does not depend on hitting with the F1 Burst (i.e. longbow).

Cons:
1) Depends on the Discipline trait line (most warriors pick this line anyway).
2) Is about 2 seconds slower then Cleansing Ire (but only in ideal circumstances).
3) Requires a specific sigil (but only on one weapon set).

4. Make Cleansing Ire a minor trait.

With that, I can see a choice between: Cull the weak, Spiked Armor and Last Stand.

runeblade.7514:

4. Make Cleansing Ire a minor trait.

With that, I can see a choice between: Cull the weak, Spiked Armor and Last Stand.

That would be way too powerful. Forum armchair designers usually have no concept of balance (MAKE WARRIORS SPRINT BASELINE!), but this OP actually seems to have a good idea of what to do imo.

Larynx.2453:

runeblade.7514:

4. Make Cleansing Ire a minor trait.

With that, I can see a choice between: Cull the weak, Spiked Armor and Last Stand.

That would be way too powerful. Forum armchair designers usually have no concept of balance (MAKE WARRIORS SPRINT BASELINE!), but this OP actually seems to have a good idea of what to do imo.

Explain.

runeblade.7514:

Larynx.2453:

runeblade.7514:

4. Make Cleansing Ire a minor trait.

With that, I can see a choice between: Cull the weak, Spiked Armor and Last Stand.

That would be way too powerful. Forum armchair designers usually have no concept of balance (MAKE WARRIORS SPRINT BASELINE!), but this OP actually seems to have a good idea of what to do imo.

Explain.

Why Cleansing Ire with no trait investment is a good thing? Maybe because gaining an entire master trait for free, one of the strongest and most defining master traits in the game, will have some slight balance repercussions. You can now get Dogged March, Cleansing Ire, Last Stand, AND Defy Pain in one build.

What your suggesting is just a buff, nothing more. It’s helps build diversity, sure, but not in any good or intelligent way. It’s not a choice. There’s less opportunity cost.

Larynx.2453:

runeblade.7514:

4. Make Cleansing Ire a minor trait.

With that, I can see a choice between: Cull the weak, Spiked Armor and Last Stand.

That would be way too powerful. Forum armchair designers usually have no concept of balance (MAKE WARRIORS SPRINT BASELINE!), but this OP actually seems to have a good idea of what to do imo.

Don’t bother argue with Chopper and runeblade. They’re close-minded Warrior main who want infinite buffs for Warrior without trade-off. They have the most subjective view , that you should never take any of their points seriously. Also they have the tendency to insult people without providing “proof” to validize their credibility.

Let’s get back to the OP’s suggestions … I think they’re very thoughtful and a definite improvement (diversity-wise) over the current trait line. It’s not a buff by any means (you lose the not-so-useful Thick Skin with no other compensation) and it makes Cull the Weak a consideration. Is it enough? Dunno, but it’s certainly a step in the right direction.

Larynx.2453:

runeblade.7514:

Larynx.2453:

runeblade.7514:

4. Make Cleansing Ire a minor trait.

With that, I can see a choice between: Cull the weak, Spiked Armor and Last Stand.

That would be way too powerful. Forum armchair designers usually have no concept of balance (MAKE WARRIORS SPRINT BASELINE!), but this OP actually seems to have a good idea of what to do imo.

Explain.

Why Cleansing Ire with no trait investment is a good thing? Maybe because gaining an entire master trait for free, one of the strongest and most defining master traits in the game, will have some slight balance repercussions. You can now get Dogged March, Cleansing Ire, Last Stand, AND Defy Pain in one build.

Why Cleansing Ire with no trait investment is a good thing?

Because then there is actually a balanced choice. If it is not balanced, then it is way easier to balance than currently. Last Stand and Cull the Weak will never be choices while Cleansing Ire is still in that same spot. Last Stand and Cull the Weak would need to buffed immensely to compete against Cleansing Ire. Example, Last Stand: cooldown is 10 seconds. CtW: applies weakness at -90% hp. That sounds OP to you? Well, it is enough for me to decide if I want to lose Cleansing Ire over it.

Of course, ANet could nerf Cleansing Ire instead. But if it is nerfed to the point where it is a balanced choice between LS and CtW, warriors will fall out of existence and will be even lower than trash tier.

It wouldn’t be just Dogged March, Cleansing Ire, Last Stand, AND Defy Pain in one build. It could be Shield Mastery, Cull the Weak, Sundering Mace because those three traits look like it works well together. It could be Armored Attack/Last stand/Rousing Resilience because those three looks like it works well together.

That is three distinct combination vs. Dogged March/Cleansing Ire/Spiked armor/Defy Pain.

Aomine.5012:

Larynx.2453:

runeblade.7514:

4. Make Cleansing Ire a minor trait.

With that, I can see a choice between: Cull the weak, Spiked Armor and Last Stand.

That would be way too powerful. Forum armchair designers usually have no concept of balance (MAKE WARRIORS SPRINT BASELINE!), but this OP actually seems to have a good idea of what to do imo.

Don’t bother argue with Chopper and runeblade. They’re close-minded Warrior main who want infinite buffs for Warrior without trade-off. They have the most subjective view , that you should never take any of their points seriously. Also they have the tendency to insult people without providing “proof” to validize their credibility.

You wanted proof, why didn’t you say so?

Lets look at metabattle. It isn’t perfect, but at least it is the only site that narrows build to builds that actually works.

• Shoutbow- Cleansing Ire
• Axebow- Cleansing Ire
• Hambow- Cleansing Ire
• GS/Bow- Cleansing Ire
• Sword/bow- Cleansing Ire

See the pattern?

Also they have the tendency to insult people without providing “proof” to validize their credibility.

They’re close-minded Warrior main

lol

Thick Skin should really be removed for something better, but not simply replaced by part of a trait we already have. What thick skin should be converted to is Turtle Defence: “+200toughness when you are chilled, crippled, or immobilized”

Seems like you’re just nerfing cleansing ire to the point where it’s no longer better than the other skills of its tier. Can’t say i really find that to be an acceptable way to sway warriors into selecting other traits. Especially with the power creep coming with the new specializations and trait changes. Skills need buffed to be in line with CI, not cleaning Ire nerfed to be on the weaker skills level.

I already stated how to fix CI and i will again:

1. Make it cleanse conditions on burst use, not burst hit (because it kills diveristy with must have bow and hammer).

2. Make it consume adrenaline bars for each condition cleansed, up to two condies (first bar of adrenaline always goes for burst skill).

3. If burst skill hits, return half of adrenaline consumed by CI.

Now you have to choose – condi cleanse with CI, or stronger bursts without. And non bow and non hammer weapons aren’t now that disadvantaged in terms of burst.

enLight.1695:

Many players are concerned that Cleansing Ire is a “black hole” trait—that it will almost always be chosen over Last Stand or Cull the Weak. Here is a possible solution to that problem:

1) Replace the minor trait Thick Skin with: “Embrace the Pain (Gain adrenaline when hit.).”
This replaces a useless minor trait with something useful, thematically synergizes with the other minor traits (Adrenal Health and Spiked Armor), and gives warriors the freedom to choose any of the three master traits without sacrificing that essential adrenaline gain.

2) Change Cleansing Ire to: “Remove a condition for every bar of adrenaline spent when you hit with a burst skill.”
The adrenaline-gaining ability of the trait has been moved to Embrace the Pain.

3) Change Cull the Weak to: “Increases damage to weakened foes by 10%. Striking a foe below the health threshold (50%) inflicts weakness (3 sec.).”
Applying weakness earlier in the fight is stronger and, with the damage increase, makes this trait a more attractive choice.

I think these changes would give warriors more of a real choice for their Defense master trait: Cleansing Ire, for a condition meta; Last Stand, for a CC meta; and Cull the Weak for a DPS meta.

You just enforced CI and defense line upon warriors even more.

• Embrace the Pain in the same line not baseline but a minor “a reason to pick Defense”.

• a more powerful Cleansing Ire “a reason to pick CI”.

You wanted warriors to consider not picking CI but you did the opposite.

I don’t know what Larynx and that Ranger Aomine are thinking but the OP is suggesting a Buff to CI, yet they support it lol, OK fine with me xD

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I already stated how to fix CI and i will again:

1. Make it cleanse conditions on burst use, not burst hit (because it kills diveristy with must have bow and hammer).

2. Make it consume adrenaline bars for each condition cleansed, up to two condies (first bar of adrenaline always goes for burst skill).

3. If burst skill hits, return half of adrenaline consumed by CI.

Now you have to choose – condi cleanse with CI, or stronger bursts without. And non bow and non hammer weapons aren’t now that disadvantaged in terms of burst.

Most lvl1 burst skills are teribad. Don’t think anyone would ever use LB again with this change. No longer need it for the cleanse because all weapons would be able to achieve the same cleansing potential, and you wont be able to stack might with it anymore because lvl 1burst lasts a measly three seconds and the radius of it is tiny. The only two reasons to take LB would become null and void. Couldn’t even use the firefield anymore because it would be too small and deal too little damage to matter.

In fact the only weapon that would benefit from this is GS, because GS lvl 1 burst isn’t much different from the lvl 3 burst. It’s a large damage or utility nerf to every other weapon set that uses CI (Axe damage, Hammer and Mace stun duration, Sword Immobilize duration, LB firefield radius and time that it lasts) Rather than cleansing three conditions it will cleanse two and it will turn your burst skill into a wet noodle. The only advantage is that you can always proc CI with a burst skill now, but between the 1 less condition and the nerfed burst skill, I have a hard time seeing how that’s a buff to even non-LB weapons (except perhaps GS…).

The Gain adrenaline when hit is also better than: “If burst skill hits, return half of adrenaline consumed by CI.” You’re only gaining one adrenaline bar assuming you hit your burst skill at lvl 3 adrenaline which only amounts to ten auto attacks the way CI is set up now. You’re likely to regain adrenaline quicker the way CI is now even if you always hit your burst. If you’re prone to missing your burst the new CI adrenaline gain would become much, much weaker.

Going to have to say this is a bad idea too. A trait should provide a direct buff to something. It shouldn’t negatively affect some other aspect to a warrior for taking it. I’m not aware of any GW2 traits that work like that.

I will say less people will use CI with that change, but only because that change would make it a much weaker trait.

Juba.8406:

You just enforced CI and defense line upon warriors even more.

• Embrace the Pain in the same line not baseline but a minor “a reason to pick Defense”.

• a more powerful Cleansing Ire “a reason to pick CI”.

You wanted warriors to consider not picking CI but you did the opposite.

Warriors do not need Embrace the Pain to gain adrenaline. They already have many alternatives: the new Berserker’s Fury, Furious, Versatile Rage, Burst Mastery (to conserve adrenaline), Berserker’s Stance, and Signet of Fury.

Also, my fix does not add anything to Cleansing Ire and therefore does not buff it. If anything, it buffs Last Stand and Cull the Weak by granting them access to Embrace the Pain.

To make warriors less dependent on Cleansing Ire (and thus, the Defense trait line), I would propose the following fix: Make Sigil of Cleansing legal in PVP. I’ve added my reasons for this to my OP above.

The concept of the meta relies upon a number of traits and skills. The fact that the meta uses CI is because it is optimal. But it is also designed as a way to balance the class.

literally all classes that have more than one build in the meta share traits/skills

How this proves anything I do not know.

But I support adding sigil of cleansing to PvP. It is easier to balance with sigils than a trait change to make one more successful at the meta.

So you want Warriors to go back to state they were in before the addition of CI? When they would die to anything with a couple of condis?
I don’t understand why warrior condi removal has to have additional drawbacks and can’t work reliably when you need it.

Ozzrel.9825:

So you want Warriors to go back to state they were in before the addition of CI? When they would die to anything with a couple of condis?
I don’t understand why warrior condi removal has to have additional drawbacks and can’t work reliably when you need it.

Then CI should be balance around longer CD and harder Adrenaline Gain.
Currently 7 secs for 3 cleanse it abit too much. Most classes cleanse which bound to trait has pretty lengthy CD or sacrifices a whole utility bar + heal skill + elite to do so.

I’d rather CI becomes more of a skill-base cleanse, instead of hurting the Warrior’s usage for burst skill. I’m pretty sure that’s Anet’s original intention for making CI, and LB is something that they overlooked but abit too late to “fix it” (because otherwise the Warrior community would outrage once again)

The problem with the suggestion to make Embrace the Pain replace Thick skin is that one would still have to go all into the Defense line to get it. Because in the new system you get a full trait line, or don’t get any of it at all.

So all this would accomplish is warriors would now probably take the new and improved Last Stand over CI and choose other condi mitigation options, as the new Last Stand is actually extremely powerful in my opinion.

I think it’s a pretty good idea though. Definitely better then what’s going to happen now.

[quote=5146310;enLight.1695:]

enLight.1695:

“Remove a condition for every bar of adrenaline spent when you hit with a burst skill

Didn’t notice the underlined, my bad, anyway i don’t see the purpose of splitting CI and keeping both aspects in the same line, you could better aim for a baseline EtP to encourage dropping the whole line.

It’s either adrenaline gain on-hit becomes baseline or fast hands baseline. Mostly with baseline fast-hands, I promise, that’s all that needs to happen so that Warrior won’t be “black-holed” into cleansing ire without making Warrior broken.

With the power creep happening, this should just flat-out happen. There’s literally no reason not to.

condition removal