Guild Wars 2

As per the Dec 14 update notes, in case the devs didn’t know, we weren’t canceling Triple Chop accidentally, we were doing it because Triple Chop is much worse DPS than Chop or Double Chop and it is better to cancel it to reset the chain.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chop : 252 dmg over 0.25 seconds = 1008 dps

http://wiki.guildwar...iki/Triple_Chop : 858 dmg over 1.5 seconds = 572 dps

so if you cancel TC to get to Chop, you are increasing your DPS (and also getting to Double Chop faster, which is a better skill than both). is there any other weapon AA chain for any class that punishes the user for finishing the combo? this makes no sense to me, someone please clarify why the final attack in an AA chain is significantly worse than the other 2 and is better off being canceled?

or could I be completely wrong?

thanks!

The solution here is to make the third stage of the combo approximately equal to the second stage (or just eliminate it entirely and make it a two stage combination). The solution is NOT to make it interuptable, because then people will feel like they MUST interupt it to be effective.

Also, DPS is not the only consideration. Each strike gives adrenaline, and each strike can crit, and each strike can proc an effect.

Whether that is enough to address your concern or not, I can’t say. It is something to think about, though.

EDIT: Also, are you sure about the math? The Wiki link says Triple Chop hits for 858 × 3, not 858 × 1. I’m not in game to check, but I thought the damage number is not a cumulative total but rather the amount each strike does. I could be wrong, though, as I’m not online to look right now.

EDIT #2: I checked in game. If you watch the combat log, you’ll see the cycle go through and Triple Chop definitely hits 3 times (as you would expect). I saw 718, 718, 718 and then 1868, 1955, 804 and then 766, 1863, 1935.

Deria.9158:

Also, DPS is not the only consideration. Each strike gives adrenaline, and each strike can crit, and each strike can proc an effect.

The reason that Triple Chop is worse than repeating Chop/Double Chop is because it takes longer to do those 3 hits, than the previous 3. So adrenaline/proc’s are still more efficient with cancelling it. 3 hits is 3 hits, but 3 hits faster is better :P

Deria.9158:

EDIT: Also, are you sure about the math? The Wiki link says Triple Chop hits for 858 × 3, not 858 × 1. I’m not in game to check, but I thought the damage number is not a cumulative total but rather the amount each strike does. I could be wrong, though, as I’m not online to look right now.

Math is correct, many people have pointed it out in the past (myself included), the numbers on the tooltip are cumulative.

Double Chop = Damage (2x): 538
Triple Chop = Damage (3x): 858
100b = Damage (8x): 1,624
Whirling Axe = Damage (15x): 1,005

If it wasn’t cumulative then Double Chop would do 1076, Triple Chop 2574, 100b 12992 and Whirling Axe a whopping 15075 on BASE tooltip damage.

Which we all know isn’t even close

It all probably evens out in the end. I can’t imagine this is a huge issue.

At least the Warriors didn’t get a bunch of nerfs like the Guardian. Be thankful our builds are all still viable.

How to cancel TC?

If you didn’t know already, tool tips in this game are wrong. Especially swing animation tool tips. Did no one learn this when some dude tried to mathcraft 100b being weaker than gs auto attacks over the same time frame? He based everything off of the tool tip numbers, and the conclusion was the cast-times on both auto attacks and 100b were very wrong. (this was after someone debunked it by frapsing it, then going over each frame and timing it)

The same holds true for triple chop. Pretty sure its a little stronger than chop/double chop (each individual hit during triple chop is a little stronger, and the swing animation looks about the same – yes, based on visual evidence, not the dumb gw tooltips which again, are almost always wrong when it comes to swing animation/cast animation speeds.

Triple chop is not cummulative like 100b or Volley. Each hit of triple chop deals 858 dmg. You dont have to do math. Just play the game and you will notice.

Also I dont see a difference in attack speed between chop + double chop and triple chop. Besides proc chance is irrelevant because procs have internal cooldowns.

Steady axe vs heavy golem testing, no traits or amulet

Tooltips
Chop = 34
Double Chop = (x2) 72
Triple Chop = (x3) 114

Damage Dealt
Chop = 33
Double Chop = 35, 35
Triple Chop = 38, 38, 38

Clearly the tooltip IS cumulative. Now, I also (because I have nothing better to do) flicked through frames to count the DPS – it’s 30fps in the video but it doesnt really matter as its a comparison of one ability to the next.

Frames from button press to Damage Hit
Chop = 15 frames
Double Chop = #1 @ 12 frames, #2 @ 25 frames
Triple Chop = #1 @ 15 frames, #2 @ 30 frames, #3 @ 50 frames
Time between last Triple Chop damage and beginning of next Chop attack = 10 frames

Double Chop activates instantly after Chop strikes.
Triple Chop takes a total of 60 frames due to a 10 frame delay before Chop begins again.

Double chop takes slightly less than double the time for Chop to deal damage but has a slight delay at the end before Triple Chop begins , whereas Triple Chop takes double the time of Double Chop.

This does show the tooltips are slightly off (well, that’s how it appears on video >.>) as the Chop is listed as .25s before damage and its actually more like .5 (let it cycle a few times on AA as well to check).

Total DPF
Chop = 2.2
Double Chop = 2.33
Triple Chop = 1.9

I could be wrong, and it would be great if someone else tested as well, but that’s my findings.

Edit: Fixed double chop DPF, forgot to include the 5 frame pause before Triple Chop began into the length of the attack.

Some raw data for you. I made this a few weeks ago trying to compare weapon dps. I didn’t count frames I did it with seconds so this goes down to .01 of a second from the frame it popped up at. It seems to work out better because I had some random program, maybe antivirus or something, kick up and cause a frame delay and you can see a small delay right before the 3rd rotation but it didn’t affect the overall time.

axe swing time full rotation

227 average—> 360
277 50
323 46
397 74
447 50
507 60
590 83 363
637 47
680 43
753 73
803 50
887 84
950 63 360
997 47
1040 43
1113 73
1163 50
1213 50
1307 94 357
1357 50
1400 43
1477 77
1527 50
1587 60
1667 80 360
1717 50
1760 43
1833 73
1883 50
1947 64
2027 80 360
2077 50
2120 43
2190 70
2243 53
2303 60
2387 84 360
2437 50
2480 43
2550 70
2603 53
2663 60
2750 87 363

^bit tough to understand but if i’m interpreting correctly, both you and Neandramathal have proved beyond reasonable doubt that Triple Chop hits 3 times for marginally more damage than Chop does but takes roughly 4x the amount of time to complete the attack (counting frames).

so that brings us full circle: the Axe AA is more effective if stopped at TC rather than continuing it to completion. that, to me, is a problem.

It is tough to follow because it is raw data like I said. I just copy-pasted from the spreadsheet. I suppose I could have mentioned you have to mentally add the decimal though. Column 1 is the video time column 2 is the time since the last swing and 3 is the time for a full rotation.

Its a more damage more time issue with TC vs using C and DC. Therefore C DC seems more favorable because I can get in 3 hits with less time.

You have to consider the time it takes to end the DC and start the next chop. Chop doesn’t come instantly. It is worth testing to see if you incur the same pause before your next chop as you get letting the rotation flow through completely. The big “problem” is the apparent pause between DC and TC, but that is still shorter from my testing than the pause between the end of a full rotation with TC and starting the next rotation with chop. I am nearly bored enough to do this. If people stop posting stuff for me to read maybe I will get bored enough to actually do it. ;D

There is a slight delay between DC and TC, I forgot to factor it into my initial listing of “DPF”, but it still makes both C/DC better damage than TC.

I’ve corrected my original post to reflect. It’s interesting to see that the tooltips don’t match my video though, they state that Chop takes .25seconds and it’s actually .5seconds. Double Chop is also the only one of the 3 that doesn’t have a cast bar.

Previously when you could cancel the Triple you still got the first hit of it, which was the fastest of the 3 (at the same speed as Chop). I would imagine that is why they changed it, as that 3rd hit gave you the following:

Chop = 2.2
Double Chop = 2.33
Triple Chop (1 strike) = 2.53

Currently – from my steady axe test – it takes 105 frames for a full execution (15+30+60 respectively) and deals 217. So a damage per frame of 2.06, which is worse than spamming Chop >.> However cancelling just after the initial hit of Triple Chop like you did before when you spammed #1, gave you 141 damage in 60 frames, for a total of 2.35 damage per frame average.

Of course.. it’s not a flat number across every frame/millisecond so if you only get a certain amount of time to attack there will be some perfect time (say the enemy pulls out of range between swings) that you deal better damage by letting triple chop activate. This perfect spot is probably if the enemy pulls away JUST after the 2nd strike of Triple Chop connects, then you’d be glad you used Triple Chop. It’s the 3rd hit that’s the time consuming one.

I’m hoping my data/maths is correct, I’d hate to sound like I’m being all smart and it be a total fail For the record I did this by going to the mists, recording at 30fps and then opened it in Sony Vegas clicking forward frame by frame in the preview.

So like I said, I was bored so I did some messing around.

I haven’t much used an axe since leveling, so I don’t really read on it, so I’m not exactly sure what has changed, or rather what you think has changed. I checked the video I used to make a test and the delay between DC and TC is still there and all the times between the various chops seem the same. Because of that the numbers I’m using just uses my old data for the swing times.

So here is what I did, I interrupted as I finished my second double chop a few times and when I did my 3rd tripple chop a few times. I used cyclone axe because the cast time seems more in line with it’s tooltip (I didn’t bother with multiple tests on the time though) while dual strike seems more like 4/5 of a second instead of a half. I didn’t bother to test with throw either.

I found when I interrupted after DC it was about .35 seconds after the last hit of CA that the first chop would come. If I did it after the final hit of TC it was about .4 seconds after CA that I chopped. Using those numbers I made an theoretical rotation of hits chop DC CA, and a chop DC TC CA then divided by the “real” time it would take to do those. The conclusion was interrupting after the DC was a 12% damage gain over TC and 25% over just the auto swing. That’s not including the vulnerability stacks.

That comes with an asterisk though, because this is best case scenario. You have to do it in such a time that you eat up that delay between DC and TC with the CA or the delay between the last TC and chop. If you use an axe you’re probably good at it, for a novice like me that damage gain would probably be a negative when interrupting TC.

Another asterisk is that CA cooldown lines up better when used between TC and chop rather than interrupting. I don’t feel like spending more time on this now, but it might be significant that you’re waiting for after DC instead of lining up almost perfectly with TC.

Like I said I don’t use axes so I didn’t know about that TC hit and I had a flubbed test vid that I found I had done it once, so it is still doable. Though when I did it I hit the CA button .07s before the TC hit. I’m not so sure that would be a DPS gain, since that delay is what kills the axe TC dps.

Neandramathal.9536:

Deria.9158:

Also, DPS is not the only consideration. Each strike gives adrenaline, and each strike can crit, and each strike can proc an effect.

The reason that Triple Chop is worse than repeating Chop/Double Chop is because it takes longer to do those 3 hits, than the previous 3. So adrenaline/proc’s are still more efficient with cancelling it. 3 hits is 3 hits, but 3 hits faster is better :P

Deria.9158:

EDIT: Also, are you sure about the math? The Wiki link says Triple Chop hits for 858 × 3, not 858 × 1. I’m not in game to check, but I thought the damage number is not a cumulative total but rather the amount each strike does. I could be wrong, though, as I’m not online to look right now.

Math is correct, many people have pointed it out in the past (myself included), the numbers on the tooltip are cumulative.

Double Chop = Damage (2x): 538
Triple Chop = Damage (3x): 858
100b = Damage (8x): 1,624
Whirling Axe = Damage (15x): 1,005

If it wasn’t cumulative then Double Chop would do 1076, Triple Chop 2574, 100b 12992 and Whirling Axe a whopping 15075 on BASE tooltip damage.

Which we all know isn’t even close

actually those latter numbers sound about right for the actual damage you do with the one exception of whirling axe… and not including crits of course…

whens the last time you did a 100b at level 80 for 1.6k total damage?

Tammuz.7361:

Neandramathal.9536:

Deria.9158:

Also, DPS is not the only consideration. Each strike gives adrenaline, and each strike can crit, and each strike can proc an effect.

The reason that Triple Chop is worse than repeating Chop/Double Chop is because it takes longer to do those 3 hits, than the previous 3. So adrenaline/proc’s are still more efficient with cancelling it. 3 hits is 3 hits, but 3 hits faster is better :P

Deria.9158:

EDIT: Also, are you sure about the math? The Wiki link says Triple Chop hits for 858 × 3, not 858 × 1. I’m not in game to check, but I thought the damage number is not a cumulative total but rather the amount each strike does. I could be wrong, though, as I’m not online to look right now.

Math is correct, many people have pointed it out in the past (myself included), the numbers on the tooltip are cumulative.

Double Chop = Damage (2x): 538
Triple Chop = Damage (3x): 858
100b = Damage (8x): 1,624
Whirling Axe = Damage (15x): 1,005

If it wasn’t cumulative then Double Chop would do 1076, Triple Chop 2574, 100b 12992 and Whirling Axe a whopping 15075 on BASE tooltip damage.

Which we all know isn’t even close

actually those latter numbers sound about right for the actual damage you do with the one exception of whirling axe… and not including crits of course…

whens the last time you did a 100b at level 80 for 1.6k total damage?

Tooltip numbers are based off damage vs a target with 2600 armor if I remember correctly?

The Greatsword chain #1 lists as 259 – compare that to the 100b’s 1600 and now it sounds correct doesn’t it, because when was the last time your GS AA hit for less than 1k at level 80?

Needless to say, as you can see from the testing figures… C/DC/TC is certainly a cumulative tooltip.

The last hit of Triple Chop should be buffed for extra damage or some sort of additional effect. You should get a bit of a reward for sticking with the combo till the end

You people are silly for complaining about triple chop and you should feel silly.

In GW2, you don’t measure your damage by dps. That is an old, archaic form of measuring that was used in some ancient game way back when.

You measure damage based on the plays that you can do within a given amount of time.

The fact is, triple chop is the strongest burst out of all the axe attacks. If all of the hits crit, it’s even stronger than a crit eviscerate. As a Warrior, you’re not going to be spending more than 5 seconds using the axe, because you’ll be swapping to a different weapon set to maximize your damage, so it’s all about how much burst can you do within 5 seconds. Swapping to axes and then eviscerating already takes about 2 seconds of your time – that means you have about 3 seconds of axe-attacking before you swap to something else. 1-2-3 chain from axe #1 is stronger than 1-2-1-2 chain within 3 seconds.

Remember that a Warrior’s life span in combat is no more than ~20 seconds. So, it’s not about how much dps you can do within 5 minutes, or 2 minutes, or even 1 minute. No. It’s about the plays that you can pull off within a small time window (in this case, 5 seconds out of a total ~20 seconds).

zone.1073:

You measure damage based on the plays that you can do within a given amount of time.

The fact is, triple chop is the strongest burst out of all the axe attacks. If all of the hits crit, it’s even stronger than a crit eviscerate. As a Warrior, you’re not going to be spending more than 5 seconds using the axe, because you’ll be swapping to a different weapon set to maximize your damage, so it’s all about how much burst can you do within 5 seconds. Swapping to axes and then eviscerating already takes about 2 seconds of your time – that means you have about 3 seconds of axe-attacking before you swap to something else. 1-2-3 chain from axe #1 is stronger than 1-2-1-2 chain within 3 seconds.

If you have 3 seconds to attack, and C+DC takes 1.5seconds, and C+DC+TC takes 3.5seconds, you could execute C+DC+C+DC+C in that time (the 3.5 not the 3). Which as we have determined already by the numbers in this thread, is more damage in the same amount of time. Hence, more “Burst”.

C+DC deal more damage than TC does in the given time period. The only time this isn’t true is if you can only cast the first hit of TC. That’s pretty much the whole point of this thread.. it doesn’t matter that TC does more damage per cast, it’s that that cast takes so much longer that it is less damage.

You can’t say “DPS is irrelevant” and then say “You have only 3 seconds to attack, you must do the most damage possible” … That’s what DPS is after all.. Damage Per Second. Now, if we were comparing abilities that did better DPS but took 2 seconds to cast before dealing ANY damage (and thus not fitting the 2nd cast in the time gap) this would be fine, but we are not.

I would love for TC to be the better option but so far evidence supports the opposite. Unfortunately, I can’t do a frame comparison of allowing it to autoattack vs cancelling it because the option isn’t there anymore. This would’ve been great to do last week >.<

For the record I’m not saying “Shut up I’m right, TC is less DPS!” but using what is available to me and best analysis I can do of videos that’s the conclusion I’ve come to. There are people who are far better with videos than I who I hope can also do such tests, the biggest issue for me is where does one skill end and the next begin.

Have plugged all this into an excel spreadsheet and using the frame data in #2, chop-double chop chains do ~9% more DPS than chop-triple chop chains. This is assuming:

a) the frame data is correct (I haven’t checked myself)
b) there is no penalty for immediately cancelling TC and going into Chop.

Frame data used is:

Chop-Double chop frames: 27 (this must include any extra time penalties for cancelling)
Chop-Triple chop frames: 60 (10 frame delay after TC included in this).

If the Chop-Double chop frames are wrong, please let me know and I’ll run the figures again.

Also, to give you an idea of how close the numbers are – adding 2 frames onto the Chop-Double Chop chain causes the Chop-Triple Chop chain to start doing more DPS.

One big thing to say (especially to the OP): NEVER use the cast/animation times listed on the tooltips. Virtually all of them are wrong. Always measure it yourself using FRAPS/etc.

Sorry just to clarify for you there Sami, my list of frame numbers are from the beginning of each attack.

So for example #1/#2 are the number of frames it takes for the first and second hits of double chop to occur after casting double chop, not the beginning of the total chain.

So if you want total frames from the beginning of Chop it should be (as there is also a small delay at the end of Double Chop, approx 5 frames).

Start = 0
Chop = 15
Double Chop 1st hit = 27
Double Chop 2nd hit = 40
Triple Chop 1st hit = 60
Triple Chop 2nd hit = 75
Triple Chop 3rd hit = 95
End of Chain = 105.

So:
Chop-Double Chop frames = 40
Chop-Triple Chop frames = 105

Going from SirDiealot’s data a full rotation is 360×0.1seconds = 3.6seconds (or at 30fps, 108frames).

Very good discussion guys. Axe AA one of many AA chains that do less damage if you let them complete. I dont know why but thats the way it is.

Neandramathal.9536:

Sorry just to clarify for you there Sami, my list of frame numbers are from the beginning of each attack.

So for example #1/#2 are the number of frames it takes for the first and second hits of double chop to occur after casting double chop, not the beginning of the total chain.

So if you want total frames from the beginning of Chop it should be (as there is also a small delay at the end of Double Chop, approx 5 frames).

Start = 0
Chop = 15
Double Chop 1st hit = 27
Double Chop 2nd hit = 40
Triple Chop 1st hit = 60
Triple Chop 2nd hit = 75
Triple Chop 3rd hit = 95
End of Chain = 105.

So:
Chop-Double Chop frames = 40
Chop-Triple Chop frames = 105

Going from SirDiealot’s data a full rotation is 360×0.1seconds = 3.6seconds (or at 30fps, 108frames).

The problem is we don’t know the animation time between a DC > cancel > C without using a inbetween skill. Obviously there has to be one since chop starts from a “neutral” stance animation where as DC 2nd hit would be either in the middle or end of the swing animation. Whats the frame count from the end of the TC 3rd hit to C hit (restart cycle)?

Recently.1043:

Whats the frame count from the end of the TC 3rd hit to C hit (restart cycle)?

I get it as 10 frames from end of TC to start of C, and 5 from end of DC to start of TC.

Pre-nerf I actually tested how long it takes to kill golem with steady weapon. Canceling won every time (like 10% faster or something).

@Zone

Some people use Axe + Mace as a main Weapon instead of GS. Now that the response time got reverted, Axe does less DPS now the moment you land a stun on someone with Skull Crack or Bulls Charge.

When someone is incapacitated, I want to be able to deal the maximum amount of DPS. With the revert, Axe + Mace got nerfed. And that little nerf is just something that ANET should revert since Axe instead of GS is already hard. Its like “Why the hell make it even more non-rewarding?”

Neand: is your 40 frames including the 5s cancel penalty? Regardless, if its 40 or 45 for the double chop chain, it still beats the triple chop one.

http://imgur.com/a/5CtxU – images includes for 40f and 45f.

40 frames is the time the 2nd strike hits, and 60 is the time of the first strike for triple chop. The end of Double Chop is 45. I should’ve written in that one in, concentrating on getting the numbers for the full chain down D’oh. Thanks for pointing out.

If you only have X seconds to output the damage it matters when the strike is, if not then it’s about length of the attack in total (due to repeat).