Guild Wars 2

So, I’ve heard a LOT of people quoting “Adrenaline loss on miss is good, learn to set up your burst skills with CC! L2P!”

On paper, I’m sure that sounds like a valid line of reasoning, but I’d like to point out a few MASSIVE flaws with this theory.

1. Some adrenaline skills ARE set-up skills. Earthshaker is an AoE stun, Skullcrack is a stun, and Flurry is an immobilize. Are you seriously telling me that to get a CC move off, I need to first CC my target??

2. Risk vs Reward is WAY off right now. Evisc may be the exception here, as it does massive damage when spec’d and built correctly, but landing any other adrenal skill is NOT a balanced Risk vs Reward currently. Hitting means a mediocre hit, sometimes a neat effect, but missing means a loss of all that adrenaline which is also required for other things, in addition to the skills cooldown.

• Unlucky blinds that just happen to hit you RIGHT as you’re casting happen.
• Lucky dodges that your opponent just happen to hit at the right time (vs bad players).
• Skillfully timed dodges versus severely overtelegraphed moves (vs good players).

3. Adrenaline skills are BUGGY! They always have been, but it hurts even more when you’re penalized for it! Just TODAY ALONE, since the patch, I experienced no less than FOUR UNIQUE instances that cost me my full adrenaline, by NO FAULT of my own.

• Earthshaker on an uneven surface. We’ve all been there before.

• Burst skill delays on knockbacks and stuns. For example, I was just hitting flurry when I was knocked back by an opponent in PvP. As soon as the knockback finished, my character cast flurry, a full second later! I clearly no longer wanted to cast it, and was not pressing it after being struck, but it’s almost as if it sat Queue’d up!

• Cleansing Ire: A huge portion of our survival vs condi specs is reliant on spamming burst skills. Missing a single burst can leave us stuck with a stack of bleeds that can LITERALLY cost us an entire fight, all because one of the above bugs/overtelegraphs occurs.

My proposal is that adrenaline be retuned ,so a miss only costs ONE BAR, instead of all 3.

Dand.8231:

So, I’ve heard a LOT of people quoting “Adrenaline loss on miss is good, learn to set up your burst skills with CC! L2P!”

On paper, I’m sure that sounds like a valid line of reasoning, but I’d like to point out a few MASSIVE flaws with this theory.

1. Some adrenaline skills ARE set-up skills. Earthshaker is an AoE stun, Skullcrack is a stun, and Flurry is an immobilize. Are you seriously telling me that to get a CC move off, I need to first CC my target??

2. Risk vs Reward is WAY off right now. Evisc may be the exception here, as it does massive damage when spec’d and built correctly, but landing any other adrenal skill is NOT a balanced Risk vs Reward currently. Hitting means a mediocre hit, sometimes a neat effect, but missing means a loss of all that adrenaline which is also required for other things, in addition to the skills cooldown.

• Unlucky blinds that just happen to hit you RIGHT as you’re casting happen.
• Lucky dodges that your opponent just happen to hit at the right time (vs bad players).
• Skillfully timed dodges versus severely overtelegraphed moves (vs good players).

3. Adrenaline skills are BUGGY! They always have been, but it hurts even more when you’re penalized for it! Just TODAY ALONE, since the patch, I experienced no less than FOUR UNIQUE instances that cost me my full adrenaline, by NO FAULT of my own.

• Earthshaker on an uneven surface. We’ve all been there before.

• Burst skill delays on knockbacks and stuns. For example, I was just hitting flurry when I was knocked back by an opponent in PvP. As soon as the knockback finished, my character cast flurry, a full second later! I clearly no longer wanted to cast it, and was not pressing it after being struck, but it’s almost as if it sat Queue’d up!

• Cleansing Ire: A huge portion of our survival vs condi specs is reliant on spamming burst skills. Missing a single burst can leave us stuck with a stack of bleeds that can LITERALLY cost us an entire fight, all because one of the above bugs/overtelegraphs occurs.

My proposal is that adrenaline be retuned ,so a miss only costs ONE BAR, instead of all 3.

don’t bash it until you try it. the patch hasn’t been live very long. however, I agree that earthshaker is pretty much useless now. I’ve never found it useful tbh anyways. any good player will dodge this skill.

I say give it some time and see how it plays out. these changes aren’t final. people need to relax.

you can stop adrenaline attacks from activating by swapping weapons or pressing esc.

Pray For Kosmos.5849:

don’t bash it until you try it. the patch hasn’t been live very long. however, I agree that earthshaker is pretty much useless now. I’ve never found it useful tbh anyways. any good player will dodge this skill.

I say give it some time and see how it plays out. these changes aren’t final. people need to relax.

you can stop adrenaline attacks from activating by swapping weapons or pressing esc.

I understand the “dont bash it till you try it” line, but im experienced enough as a person, and a gamer, to be able to extrapolate, using the available experiences and information at my disposal, and come up with a long term projection that is accurate to an extremely high degree.

If these changes aren’t final, as you say, then all the more reason for us to be vocal with constructive feed back (hence my post), so ANet knows what tuning to perform, right?

As for swap-to-stop: So the proper answer to a bug, is to force myself into a weapon I may not want to be in at that moment, with 10 seconds before I can change back? (5 with fast hands). And that’s assuming I know the bug is even going to occur. it’s not every single time. And what if my swap is on cooldown??
Sorry, but swap-to-stop is just a terrible reply, for multiple reasons.

Dand.8231:

Words

This is a change that should have happened a while ago (much like reveal on miss/block/etc stealth attacks). It introduces skillful play into the game which is obviously devoid of such a thing at this point.

With the current setup of the other professions it is a bad move. However, if they remove the hand holding of other classes it would be the correct move for interesting game play (pvp wise anyway).

Vanthian.9267:

With the current setup of the other professions it is a bad move.

I think that’s sorta the point.

If EVERYONE had gotten hit somewhere like this, it’d still be a nerf, but the relative class balance would remain.

But Wars get slammed for missing now, adrenaline decays super fast, but no other classes gets the same treatment. hieves can spam attack in stealth till they target runs out of dodge/aegis/block, and their big hit lands with no penalty. Warriors miss a single strike and it’s back to the drawing board, IF you even live through the condi-spam long enough to gain more adrenaline and CD to come up, that is.

Dand.8231:

Pray For Kosmos.5849:

don’t bash it until you try it. the patch hasn’t been live very long. however, I agree that earthshaker is pretty much useless now. I’ve never found it useful tbh anyways. any good player will dodge this skill.

I say give it some time and see how it plays out. these changes aren’t final. people need to relax.

you can stop adrenaline attacks from activating by swapping weapons or pressing esc.

I understand the “dont bash it till you try it” line, but im experienced enough as a person, and a gamer, to be able to extrapolate, using the available experiences and information at my disposal, and come up with a long term projection that is accurate to an extremely high degree.

If these changes aren’t final, as you say, then all the more reason for us to be vocal with constructive feed back (hence my post), so ANet knows what tuning to perform, right?

As for swap-to-stop: So the proper answer to a bug, is to force myself into a weapon I may not want to be in at that moment, with 10 seconds before I can change back? (5 with fast hands). And that’s assuming I know the bug is even going to occur. it’s not every single time. And what if my swap is on cooldown??
Sorry, but swap-to-stop is just a terrible reply, for multiple reasons.

You cando it by simply shealthing your weapon aswell. The animatio gets canceled and you only have a ~2 sec cd without losing your adren. And to be totally honest with you, I’ve been canceling Skull cracks on purpose against good players, who used their dodges to only to get skull cracked 2 sec later because there were out of gap maker. Was a really good feeling.
But yes still, fact is they nerfed Warriors too hard. I guess the communinty whined enough about it and got what they wanted.
To all those people, just be aware that you’ll be seeing a plague of rangers now, which will annoy you just as much.

P.S. Also to the “oh that didn’t affect my build or my gameplay at all jeez lean to play!” Fact is you WILL miss some f1s against competent players and it will kill you instantly now. Stop being so kitten hypocritical while trying to keep your kitten intact.
And as the OP said, landing a f1 isn’t THAT much of a reward, it’s nice but the risk now is simply ludicrous.

Ergolicious.1507:

P.S. Also to the “oh that didn’t affect my build or my gameplay at all jeez lean to play!” Fact is you WILL miss some f1s against competent players and it will kill you instantly now. Stop being so kitten hypocritical while trying to keep your kitten intact.
And as the OP said, landing a f1 isn’t THAT much of a reward, it’s nice but the risk now is simply ludicrous.

This.

My gameplay was not affected at all, but I certainly can see how this is a heavy hit to warriors in general. It’s far from a L2P issue as some people are implying. you’ve pretty much had the seams ripped out of your build if you included zerker power, zerker stance, cleansing ire, or adrenal health, and use anything but longbow to land-drop burst.

Hi … Mesmers lose their illusions when they miss their shatters. Why shouldn’t you lose your adrenaline?

One shatter does direct damage.
One shatter applies confusion.
One shatter is a CC.
One shatter provides distortion.

All shatters consume your illusions regardless of whether or not they miss … or if your illusions are killed before they even have a chance to shatter after you’ve pushed the button.

To me the big problem with needing adrenaline is that most of the skill weren’t overpowered. If adrenaline is that class mechanic then they should be the best skills available to a warrior. As it was only axe, mace, and sword were used much in pvp. Hammer and longbow are mostly wvw and axe is the only one that was meta in pvp.

Why do the burst skills need to be overpowered?

Sebrent.3625:

Why do the burst skills need to be overpowered?

They are part of the class mechanic. Having them week would be like making ele attunement have twice the cool down

Not being overpowered does not mean it is weak.
There is a nice area between “overpowered” and “weak”.
I’m going to assume that’s what you’re really shooting for.

Sebrent.3625:

Not being overpowered does not mean it is weak.
There is a nice area between “overpowered” and “weak”.
I’m going to assume that’s what you’re really shooting for.

To a degree yes. But I was more pointing out the fact that they weren’t over powered befor the nerf so there wasn’t much of a need to change them this much if at all

i agree with this change. The thing that i am kittened off about is how much of a lie we were fed on noodle slice.

Here’s the thing though … before, a Warrior could easily attack with one burst, miss, and then switch and use another. Then use a Bull’s Charge or other CC in order to set up another hard hitting attack as Warrior Burst skills aren’t the only ones that can hurt.

It allowed unskilled Burst Skill spam with very low cooldowns given that Burst Skills can be used every 7.75s with 6 points in Discipline … and Fast Hands allows weapon swaps every 5s.

If you feel any of them need to be stronger now, I’m all about that sort of discussion, but I don’t think you should retain your resource if it is blocked/dodged/misses/etc.. Otherwise Thieves could then argue that they shouldn’t consume initiative when their abilities are blocked/dodged/miss/etc. … and all other sorts of doors opening.

Instead … punish people for mistakes. It makes it more of a skill-based game. Make a mistake? Prepare to possibly suffer. Opponent makes a mistake? Make them suffer.

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the thing though … before, a Warrior could easily attack with one burst, miss, and then switch and use another. Then use a Bull’s Charge or other CC in order to set up another hard hitting attack as Warrior Burst skills aren’t the only ones that can hurt.

It allowed unskilled Burst Skill spam with very low cooldowns given that Burst Skills can be used every 7.75s with 6 points in Discipline … and Fast Hands allows weapon swaps every 5s.

If you feel any of them need to be stronger now, I’m all about that sort of discussion, but I don’t think you should retain your resource if it is blocked/dodged/misses/etc.. Otherwise Thieves could then argue that they shouldn’t consume initiative when their abilities are blocked/dodged/miss/etc. … and all other sorts of doors opening.

Instead … punish people for mistakes. It makes it more of a skill-based game. Make a mistake? Prepare to possibly suffer. Opponent makes a mistake? Make them suffer.

I’m not gonna disagree with the loss after a miss. I’m more concerned with the amount of time it takes to build up

That’s definitely something that should probably be discussed over the next days/weeks/months. What good is a burst skill with a 10s cooldown if you can’t get at least 1 bar of adrenaline in that time (without investing traits, utilities, etc.). If that is what you’re finding, definitely discuss that … preferably provide evidence as well.

Things have changed. Things will settle. We will all get a better picture of things as time goes on with these new changes Some will gripe, others will adapt. Changes will be found to be good/bad, big/small. Meta may or may not change.

Dand.8231:

If EVERYONE had gotten hit somewhere like this, it’d still be a nerf, but the relative class balance would remain.

They have to start somewhere and I am glad they did something right for once in regards to making balance more skillful. I doubt they will ever correct the other things but at least they can pat themselves on the back for one rightful change.

In other words, stop crying about a change that needed to happen. You should not want mechanics that dumb down the game (which keeping resources after using a skill and missing is pretty stupid).

Sebrent.3625:

Hi … Mesmers lose their illusions when they miss their shatters. Why shouldn’t you lose your adrenaline?

One shatter does direct damage.
One shatter applies confusion.
One shatter is a CC.
One shatter provides distortion.

All shatters consume your illusions regardless of whether or not they miss … or if your illusions are killed before they even have a chance to shatter after you’ve pushed the button.

let me explain it nice and simply from the warrior stand point. it’s not that we miss and lose the adrenaline although some including this thread particular will make it seem that way. it’s their is literally no grace period and a variety of ways to leave then reengauge in combat. to put it into perspective today at teq I wanted to see how bad this really was.

I couldn’t fill my adrenaline up by the time I went from a mob to another mob it was empty.

basically guerrilla warfare. worried about a burst disengage a fight VERY briefly all the adrenaline will be gone then start it again. if their was a grace period 10 seconds or even a mere 5 seconds it wouldn’t be such a problem.

now it could be over exaggeration on this I’ve not one spvp or wvw since the update (finshed lvling my guard) but I was appalled by how fast my adrenaline vanished.

losing it on miss I can handle I got out played losing it cause someone reset the fight for 3 seconds not fair.
—————————————————————————-
but their more this change which changes the rules so to speak is being done with the old play book (traits skills) we actually have LOST ability to regen adrenaline hell even in this same patch it happened.

and what is the reward the use of moves that were already nerfed in one or more ways to (balance) the class.

to put it in perspective
merciless hammer lost bonus dps on it’s effect (from 25% down to 20% I think) even though stuns relative short (except skull crack and earth shaker) their basically 1 second. which is about the time to get hit 1 maybe two times via the hammer auto attack)

so now we STILL have nerfs like these (hammer got a 33% dps reduction I think over all since nerf’s have come in.)

put that in perspective how would you feel if your clones had a time limit say 5seconds but before adding this time limit the reduced your shatter skills damage by 30%. it would feel like a slap in the face which is probably how some are feeling right now.

Sebrent.3625:

…but I don’t think you should retain your resource if it is blocked/dodged/misses/etc…

I don’t object to losing adrenaline on a miss, but introducing the mechanic after a year or more of making bursts really telegraphed and reducing their damage, and then simultaneously making it difficult to generate in the first place, borks the risk:reward ratio.

Where’s the sense in making a core class mechanic (1) difficult to implement, (2) easy for an opponent to mitigate, and (3) only decent to “meh” if it lands?

You’ve compared the Mesmer clone mechanic to this in a few posts, but I find the clone mechanic and options are actually much richer. I agree that clones dying when a target does seems odd and should probably be changed, but they’re still way more versatile and fun than where warrior bursts are at the moment.

I won’t disagree that Illusions can be more fun and versatile than straightforward weapon attack. There’s a reason I mained Mesmer when the game was released … so many things that only Mesmer can do … though each has been steadily nerfed, lol.

Honestly, I think Warrior is how other classes should be … have a telegraph for ALL of your abilities. Why? Because it provides something to react to which enables counterplay. If every class was as well-done as the Warrior, the game would be in much better shape and have far greater esport potential.

What is more infuriating?
Getting caught by an eviscerate or other hard-hitting but telegraphed ability ?
… or …
Getting nailed by a string of instant casts that have no telegraphs ?

The latter. If a Warrior gets me with a telegraphed skill, kudos to them. They outplayed me at that moment and here’s their reward (and my punishment).

This is honestly why I’ve started playing Warrior more despite me not thinking they are as viable 1v1 (both before and after this patch) as some other classes.

Sebrent.3625:

I won’t disagree that Illusions can be more fun and versatile than straightforward weapon attack. There’s a reason I mained Mesmer when the game was released … so many things that only Mesmer can do … though each has been steadily nerfed, lol.

Honestly, I think Warrior is how other classes should be … have a telegraph for ALL of your abilities. Why? Because it provides something to react to which enables counterplay. If every class was as well-done as the Warrior, the game would be in much better shape and have far greater esport potential.

What is more infuriating?
Getting caught by an eviscerate or other hard-hitting but telegraphed ability ?
… or …
Getting nailed by a string of instant casts that have no telegraphs ?

The latter. If a Warrior gets me with a telegraphed skill, kudos to them. They outplayed me at that moment and here’s their reward (and my punishment).

This is honestly why I’ve started playing Warrior more despite me not thinking they are as viable 1v1 (both before and after this patch) as some other classes.

This.

unfortunately the majority of people that complain about our bursts that they refuse to dodge have the ear of Anet. apparently saving a dodge, block, blink, stealth, or interrupt for an extremely-flamboyant-air-somersault-that-will-instant-down-you-but-takes-a-whole-second-to-complete is a bit much for some people, and rather than learn to read those tells, they simply beg for nerfs.

The tall poppy gets cut.

Not that I’m complaining. I prefer being the underdog. It makes it sink in that much more when I down people now. My only disappointment is that I feel the nerfs will continue to come because classes that wear light/medium armor but have huge access to stealth see big spooky damage numbers when they’re in range of anything with a blade and think that it shouldn’t be so.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I prefer being the underdog.

There is a big difference between being the underdog and being treated as the dog.

When every Warrior is using a build focused around Adrenaline traits (Cleansing Ire, Burst Mastery, Furious, Sharpened Axes) or completely trying to avoid it (Berserker’s Might, Adrenaline Health, Heightened Focus) or some combination thereof to compensate (and every build running Berserker’s Stance), you have a HUGE problem with the class mechanic.

Artaz.3819:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I prefer being the underdog.

There is a big difference between being the underdog and being treated as the dog.

When every Warrior is using a build focused around Adrenaline traits (Cleansing Ire, Burst Mastery, Furious, Sharpened Axes) or completely trying to avoid it (Berserker’s Might, Adrenaline Health, Heightened Focus) or some combination thereof to compensate (and every build running Berserker’s Stance), you have a HUGE problem with the class mechanic.

This is also true; I’ve mentioned this a couple of times before.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

My gameplay was not affected at all, but I certainly can see how this is a heavy hit to warriors in general. It’s far from a L2P issue as some people are implying. you’ve pretty much had the seams ripped out of your build if you included zerker power, zerker stance, cleansing ire, or adrenal health, and use anything but longbow to land-drop burst.

Sebrent.3625:

Honestly, I think Warrior is how other classes should be … have a telegraph for ALL of your abilities. Why? Because it provides something to react to which enables counterplay….

If a Warrior gets me with a telegraphed skill, kudos to them. They outplayed me at that moment and here’s their reward (and my punishment).

Yes, but what you’re missing is the risk:reward issue. I was also fine with the increased telegraphing on the bursts (they were always telegraphed, but they made them much more so over the last several patches), and people being able to dodge them is more fun play.

But here’s where things now sit for bursts when you add up all the changes:

1. Generating full adrenaline is tougher now
2. Anyone paying attention to the warrior can see and easily mitigate the burst
3. If the warrior actually manages to hit, the result is only one “meh” to decent hit
4. If the burst is mitigated, the target disengages for 2s, or the warrior has to move to the next target a couple seconds away, return to step #1

This isn’t remotely where the other professions are with their mechanics, and the above doesn’t even get into the consequences to warrior sustain that has been built around the now nerfed adrenaline mechanic.

To give you an idea, the changes have me leaning toward switching to my mesmer as my main (with my thief and engineer somewhere behind them). It’s not just about becoming a comparatively weak class, the warrior doesn’t have anything particularly unique or interesting about it anymore either.

In regards to, “2. Anyone paying attention to the warrior can see and easily mitigate the burst”

In the Sport of boxing, a good fighter knows that a power punch needs to first be setup. Don’t engage trying to throw haymakers at the start. You can know that an ability is coming, but if I set it up first and time it properly. You won’t be able to avoid it.

Edit: Just trying to prove a point using boxing as an example. Not trying to debate boxing mechanics. =)

Apparition.1576:

In the Sport of boxing, a good fighter knows that a power punch needs to first be setup. Don’t engage trying to throw haymakers at the start. You can know that an ability is coming, but if I set it up first and time it properly. You won’t be able to avoid it.

So, the list was to lay out the overall problem.

But as for your general point, that would be fine if the bursts were haymakers, but they aren’t. Eviscerate’s the big hit, and it does about the same damage as three axe auto attacks if it lands, or other single hit skills with longer CDs (e.g. sword 3, hammer 5, etc).

Bursts on several of the other weapons, notably sword, mace and, to a lesser extent, hammer, are the setups. By your rationale, someone should use a stun to set up the stun on a mace burst, or an immobilize to set up the immobilize on a sword burst.

I’m still in favour of making it possible for people to dodge those though, my point wasn’t that they should be guaranteed hits, and sometimes setup skills can and should be used. As I said, the purpose was to layout the overall problem of what is now a fairly irrelevant mechanic around which warriors have been built by design (i.e. by the game designers, not just the builds players use).

Hammer Burst comes with a stun. You can be killed in a single stun burst. That’s the reason people take stun breakers.

In regards to burst being guaranteed hits.. that defeats the purpose of PvP. Nothing is a guaranteed hit. It’s about timing and execution.

Apparition.1576:

Hammer Burst comes with a stun. You can be killed in a single stun burst. That’s the reason people take stun breakers.

In regards to burst being guaranteed hits.. that defeats the purpose of PvP. Nothing is a guaranteed hit. It’s about timing and execution.

I’m not really following you then. Neither of us are in favour of bursts being guaranteed hits, and your point about stun breakers seems to undermine the logic of needing to use a setup skill (e.g. a stun) to use (in this case) the stun of a hammer burst.

In reference to your previous post. I was rebutting that your burst should not be used at random and should be setup accordingly. Timing is the best way to counter the “easy to avoid” arguement.

Your rebuttle in summary were basically that all burst were not haymakers. I did not go into detail with all the weapons you listed but commented on. However, regarding hammer burst specifically, which appears to be more inclined with the discussion in this thread. I merely pointed out that although it deals lesser damage than eviscerate, it has a pretty nasty stun effect associated with the skill. This can be used in combination solo, or in team fights to be equally as deadly.

Point:
You do not need a stun to land a hammer burst. You just need to monitor their dodges or time the skill appropriately.

Apparition.1576:

Your rebuttle in summary were basically that all burst were not haymakers. I did not go into detail with all the weapons you listed but commented on. However, regarding hammer burst specifically, which appears to be more inclined with the discussion in this thread. I merely pointed out that although it deals lesser damage than eviscerate, it has a pretty nasty stun effect associated with the skill. This can be used in combination solo, or in team fights to be equally as deadly.

Point:
You do not need a stun to land a hammer burst. You just need to monitor their dodges or time the skill appropriately.

Your reply does not seem address the main points that I brought up, or the ones Choppy did.

To land ANY crucial skill, you need to spend a time and effort (timing/forcing dodges) and/or setup skill use (CC cooldowns) to ensure your skill lands. The risk is that your skill may miss, and you use up it’s cooldown.

This is risk vs reward.

Spamming 1 has low risk low reward, as it should. There’s no major risk to missing aside from the casting time, you can just hit it again. Hitting does meh damage/effects.

For Eviscerate, the damage is impressive; High reward. The risk is the high telegraph, the cooldown, the loss of adrenaline no matter what.

That’s an EXTREME risk. You’re not just losing the cooldown, you’re losing ALL strikes of adrenaline and all the passive associated abilities with it, and you’re not proccing a crucial Cleansing Ire in PvP. That’s EXTREME risk.

High Reward vs Extreme Risk. That’s not properly balanced.

Now, granted, before this change, it was High Reward vs Medium Risk, because the only drawback was the cooldown.

But most other bursts, however, were ALREADY balanced risk reward scenarios before.

Earth Shaker
Reward+Cost: Medium; Stun, Damage, Cleaning Ire
Risk: Extreme; No Damage, Cooldown, Lose ALL adrenaline, no Cleansing Ire

Flurry
Reward: Medium; Immob, Damage/Condi, Cleaning Ire
Risk: Extreme; No Damage, Cooldown, Lose ALL adrenaline, no Cleansing Ire

Arcing Slice
Reward: Medium; fury and ‘meh’ damage, Cleaning Ire
Risk: Extreme; No Damage, Cooldown, Lose ALL adrenaline, no Cleansing Ire

And now lets look briefly into why Warriors feel forced into Longbow…

Reward: High; Fire field, Damage/Condi, Cleaning Ire
Risk: Medium; Still get Fire field, No Damage, Cooldown, Lose all adrenaline

Notice how Longbow is missing Cleansing Ire from the RISK section? And you always get the fire field to combo off of?

The issue here is that the Burst Skills are NOT balanced properly. To nerf ONE burst skill (Evis) that was only SLIGHTLY ahead of the curve, ANet turned around and Kittened up the entire class mechanic.

That’s not high risk … that’s making a build and being unintelligent with how you are playing it. If you specced 6 points to get +15% damage from full adrenaline, why in the world are you eviscerating unless you’re pretty darn sure you’re about to end them or have a way to refill that adrenaline quickly.

Here’s a thought … don’t build around keeping full adrenaline for PvP.

Additionally, stand still and let a Warrior auto-attack you with axe … especially as an Ele (w/o protection) or Mesmer. That hurts. Heck, even my Ranger doesn’t like it when I’m not playing tanky (tanky doesn’t care about most things. It’s a honeybadger, lol).

As far as Arcing Slice goes. No, it’s not some execute at 50% hp … that’d be ridiculous. However, it does solid cleaving damage for 1 bar of adrenaline. Wrap your head around having a burst skill that you actually want to use at 1 bar of adrenaline.

Sebrent.3625:

Hi … Mesmers lose their illusions when they miss their shatters. Why shouldn’t you lose your adrenaline?

One shatter does direct damage.
One shatter applies confusion.
One shatter is a CC.
One shatter provides distortion.

All shatters consume your illusions regardless of whether or not they miss … or if your illusions are killed before they even have a chance to shatter after you’ve pushed the button.

Yeah, but Mesmers also have entire skill bars filled with ways to create Illusions, one of them being on a Dodge(which you should be doing in combat anyways). I can get three Illusions on the field mid combat faster than a Warrior can press Adrenal Health. Combine that with the fact that your Shatter Skills are all on separate cool downs and don’t all happen at the same time (as the Illusions sit at different distances, and shatter individually when they are close enough to hit).

But if you really want to compare the two of them, why don’t I get retaliation at full Adrenaline, when your Illusions individually do just for existing?

It’s not a perfect comparison, but you do gain adrenaline from hitting AND being hit. I’d love to get Illusions when you hit me … but I’ll settle for on-dodge when I have that spec’d.

I’m all for discussions on how fast adrenaline should increase / decrease with/without various traits, utilities, etc..

I’m tired of people saying that adrenaline is broken due to operating very closely to another mechanic that’s been in game unchanged for quite some time.

If someone wants to run the numbers on time to get 1 bar of adrenaline and time to lose 1 bar … please go for it and let’s discuss.

Otherwise, “things changed and I don’t like it” is getting tiresome.

Sebrent.3625:

It’s not a perfect comparison, but you do gain adrenaline from hitting AND being hit. I’d love to get Illusions when you hit me … but I’ll settle for on-dodge when I have that spec’d.

I’m all for discussions on how fast adrenaline should increase / decrease with/without various traits, utilities, etc..

I’m tired of people saying that adrenaline is broken due to operating very closely to another mechanic that’s been in game unchanged for quite some time.

If someone wants to run the numbers on time to get 1 bar of adrenaline and time to lose 1 bar … please go for it and let’s discuss.

Otherwise, “things changed and I don’t like it” is getting tiresome.

Similarly, Warriors only get Adrenaline from being hit when traited for it. We also don’t get a full bar of adrenaline for using a single skill, regardless if we actually hit your target or not. We don’t get the choice of 4 burst skills at any time regardless of our weapon equipped. And we sure as kitten can’t turn invisible, feint our position, or turn someone into a usless bird for 10 seconds either. So I really don’t know why you tried comparing the two ability at face value in thee first place.

All I am saying is comparing Mesmer Shatters with Warrior Bursts is like comparing a truck to a car. They’re both vehicles, but by no means are they the same thing.

McFribble.2349:

Sebrent.3625:

It’s not a perfect comparison, but you do gain adrenaline from hitting AND being hit. I’d love to get Illusions when you hit me … but I’ll settle for on-dodge when I have that spec’d.

I’m all for discussions on how fast adrenaline should increase / decrease with/without various traits, utilities, etc..

I’m tired of people saying that adrenaline is broken due to operating very closely to another mechanic that’s been in game unchanged for quite some time.

If someone wants to run the numbers on time to get 1 bar of adrenaline and time to lose 1 bar … please go for it and let’s discuss.

Otherwise, “things changed and I don’t like it” is getting tiresome.

Similarly, Warriors only get Adrenaline from being hit when traited for it. We also don’t get a full bar of adrenaline for using a single skill, regardless if we actually hit your target or not. We don’t get the choice of 4 burst skills at any time regardless of our weapon equipped. And we sure as kitten can’t turn invisible, feint our position, or turn someone into a usless bird for 10 seconds either. So I really don’t know why you tried comparing the two ability at face value in thee first place.

All I am saying is comparing Mesmer Shatters with Warrior Bursts is like comparing a truck to a car. They’re both vehicles, but by no means are they the same thing.

Bolded important parts.

Also, no Adrenaline is gained if the target is missed (block/blinded/evade/etc.) I see this myth floating around too.

Adrenaline is actually very difficult to generate quickly unless built for it specifically as weapon swings (cast-time + after-cast) are much slower in general on Warriors compared to other classes and not all attacks (F1s) generate Adrenaline Strikes when they do connect.

Apparition.1576:

You do not need a stun to land a hammer burst. You just need to monitor their dodges or time the skill appropriately.

Dand already addressed quite a lot of your post, so I’ll only address this one point. Counting dodges is smart, and timing is key.

But now you go back to zero on more than a successful dodge, also blocks, evades, blinds, stuns, immobilizes, roots, possibly cripples, chill, etc (last ones for melee bursts particularly with movement attached).

You should keep counting those dodges, but you aren’t going to count all those other hazards, especially when many of them can be applied by others on the battlefield.

The old mechanic put you in cooldown, but you didn’t lose your adrenaline, so no burst reward but your sustain wasn’t hampered while you waited around. And that was before the slower generation and quick die off of adrenaline we have now.

And, as I said, landing the burst isn’t the OMFG ROFLSTOMP that it once was. It’s between a so-so hit and something decent… nothing more. And the risk and implications of missing aren’t inconsequential.

@Dand
“To land ANY crucial skill, you need to spend a time and effort (timing/forcing dodges) and/or setup skill use (CC cooldowns) to ensure your skill lands. The risk is that your skill may miss, and you use up it’s cooldown.”

That is the entire point.. that is whats supposed to happen. You go on to talk about high reward vs extreme risk. That’s not an extreme risk.. its a miss.. just as if you missed with any other skill…

All classes who miss certain skills are punished for it. That is how it is supposed to be.. this isn’t just a punishment only warriors endure.

Rangers are punished if they miss with their dazes, knockbacks, stealth, and burst. Necros are punished for missing his marks. All classes are punished for misusing their stun breakers, or conditon removal.

I understand your point but this is not gamebreaker and only forces you to play better.

This is the reason why I hate bunker based players and the mentality that goes along with it. People expect to be rewarded for lacking the ability to play the class properly.

The meta is changing… accept it and adapt. These changes are for the better…