Guild Wars 2

Whenever I see a Warrior with 5 passive Singets join our group I frown a little. Over the past weeks I’ve grown a little disdain to these people as they seem to remind me of Retribution Paladins in WoW. Not so much the class, but the play-style and reputation.

Their preferred weapon of choice is…who’d have guessed, the Greatsword for max. PWNAGE!!!11. As a 2nd weapons set….Dual Axes… preferably, but they never change anyway.

“A ranged weapon…..in dungeons? Say what? Do I look like a Ranger to you?” seems a popular line of thinking amongst this particular breed of Warriors.

Now my question is, how effective is a 5 Singet build really, especially in terms of group support and survivability? I know Warriors benefit more of Singets than most other classes so there seems to be at least some merit to these builds. I’m just not convinced they’re the best choice for dungeons runs.

Is it right to stereotype these types of Warriors or do they deserve more credit?

PS: I’ve seen both Warriors I have to rezz ever 2nd fight with this build as well as fairly capable ones, hence my question.

most of the ones i played with have been good. general stupidity is what hampers groups, i welcome great DPs actually.

Yes. They are bad and should feel bad.

Signet builds work well in early game, but their main strength comes from the flat precision bonus, which becomes much weaker in higher levels, such that it’s not worth taking over level 60.
There’s no group support at all, no defense, no CC, no period of learning to actually use utilities.

Basically, it’s the W/Mo with Mending from GW1.

let me see if I understand this, it bothers you because someone chooses to play a game the way they want to and not to your opinionated liking? My suggestion is go find a single player game or try the real world with real people until you can you can fathom the fact that nice people respect others points of views even if they don’t align with their own.

Signet builds are not terrible. The problem is, from my experience, most signet warriors I come across are terrible at avoiding mechanics and since they do not have the survivability of other builds (and they lack getting survivability gear) they die a lot. What’s a dodge?

I personally enjoy shout builds and general buffing/supporting of group. But that’s me.

Yes. They are bad and should feel bad.
Signet builds work well in early game, but their main strength comes from the flat precision bonus, which becomes much weaker in higher levels, such that it’s not worth taking over level 60.
There’s no group support at all, no defense, no CC, no period of learning to actually use utilities.

How can you say they have no group support? there’s more than 30 trait points to go around. Most people will put at least some points into power trees like strength and arms, and I believe that signet builds have potential: You are powerful at the start of a fight and can sacrifice some damage for utility from active signets. People definitely shouldn’t have ALL the skills as signets Because it gives a very limited, self buff effect but ultimately the outcome from the trait is higher damage output.

I know the +40 precision from the unused signets can well be achieved through gear – I guess it all depends on how high you want your critical chance..

let me see if I understand this, it bothers you because someone chooses to play a game the way they want to and not to your opinionated liking? My suggestion is go find a single player game or try the real world with real people until you can you can fathom the fact that nice people respect others points of views even if they don’t align with their own.

I never said I was vocal about my dislike. In fact I questioned by own beliefs due to the popularity of the build.

However, Singets are passive and even their on-use effects tend to have limited group utility. I expect everyone to alter their spec and abilities when entering a dungeon with a group.

Solo play is different than group play and I expect everyone to adapt to that. 5 Singet Warriors are notorious for not doing that. That’s simply an observation.

It’s not inherently bad, it’s just simple. You don’t really need to do anything because most of the time you don’t use those skills. So, some people can do it alright, and they just choose it because they hate mashing buttons. Others probably just don’t cope well with pressing all those different skills (I guess these are the ones you see not dodging as well).

Not if you’re judging based on when they immediately join the group, it’s a perfectly justifiable spec when soloing/farming/etc..

If they keep those abilities slotted the whole time and your group ends up having trouble, then yes.

they work up to about lvl 60. i ran dual axe 5 signets in PvE only and only died when cornered by champions 2 or more levels higher. i have not run dungons yet and at 60 i switched builds to something more useful at higher levels. having great luck running yojacks build with sword/warhorn/rifle and making use of dodge.

wailing on a champion with 3+ trash hitting me i stay at full heath. feels like a support/damage build and i love it…so basically i would suggest looking for a new build other than 5 signet because soon it will bite you in the kitten

As much as you may not like it because they aren’t giving shouts or something to the rest of the party, high DPS also supports the group because mobs die faster. This build provides high DPS, and if you otherwise have a bunch of people trying to just go support-y for the rest of your group, it could be exactly what you need to bring bosses or mobs down in a timely manner before you’re overrun.

Try not to blame the build for the player. Sure, it’s a simple build. However, if the user doesn’t die and does rocking damage, then roll with it. You’re playing with a good player who knows how to execute and provides good damage for your party.

If someone dies repeatedly with signets, odds are they’d die repeatedly without signets. If they start blaming the game and crying about mechanics, again, you’re looking at the player to blame.

You’ve said yourself you’ve played with both good Warriors and bad Warriors with a signet build. As such, you might be able to draw a conclusion that statistically, a random player using signets is more likely to die frequently due to being bad, but you should always give the person a chance.

Please, blame the players, and not the build. Setting synergistic build expectations in a pug will only lead to frustration as well, so you have to know what you’re getting yourself into before you get yourself into it.

As an aside, I universally love seeing enemy Warriors with 5 signets in something like WvWvW, because they’re always extremely easy to kill.

There is nothing inherently wrong with using 5 signets. It’s a perfectly legitimate dps spec and the person using it could easily be bringing that dps even with a rifle for example. More dps is bringing something to the table. Is it as supportive as a shout build? No, but if we were all doing the same things it would be boring. This game is not difficult let people have fun and play the way they want. You could actually run 5 signets and still have decent defense with points in defense.

That being said if someone is running a glass cannon build and can’t stay alive constantly needing to be revived then they are actually slowing the group and I could see being irritated. That has nothing to do with the spec though and everything to do with the player. Lots of players accross lots of classes that fall into that category.

5 signets isn’t all bad. I played around with a decent signet build. The idea was not to spend any points in precision but rather use full arms, deep strike, and heightened focus to achieve a respectable crit rate. I think with fury you get anywhere between 52%-62% at 80 (been awhile so I am not sure). That allows you to use gems like Valkyrie or carrion. I decided to go with carrion because I wanted my rifle to do decent direct damage along with condition damage. I eventually changed it because I wanted to go deep into defense and tactics. I also didn’t like having all my slots tied up with signets either (for WvW, I love having endure pain and bullrush). In the end, I gave up on pure offense but I gained a lot in defense and mobility. I always prefer to live than get big damage numbers. Seems to work because I don’t think a warrior has beaten me in one on one situations in like 3-4 weeks and the last guy to do it just got lucky

I kind of agree. 5 signets and pure damage armor/accessories with a greatsword is bad in dungeons. However, this is the most simple yet effective warrior build and greatswords are probably the most fun weapon.

4 signets and “For Great Justice,” on the other hand, is really good (perma fury). Base stats wins in PvE, which signets and the +40 precision trait provides. Combined with knight’s armor, you have a great mix of damage and survivability.

In the end it all boils down to the player………a bad player will be bad regardless of ‘spec’….a good player should be able to make even the extreme glass canon specs work….but odds are a good player will not run such a spec at 80….especially in a dungeon.

Personally I just do not see the benefit in running passive 5sig spec at 80….the amount of crit you get just seems small compared to what you lose out by not utilizing other utils, shouts, etc. I know @80 I typically only have one signet slotted…Sig Of Rage ….just using For Great Justice and Sig of Rage gives me perma 75%+ crit chance in addition to might. Have a hard time justifying gaining that little extra i might get going with he 40 precision/per unused sig considering what I would give up in terms of support/survival.

My gear is mix of DPS oriented and survival oriented…. and all my runes are survival (soldier)….i.e toughness and/or vitality. My fav spec for dungeons is 0/25/0/30/15 using sword/axe or sword/horn and rifle.

Zhaitan.2578:

I kind of agree. 5 signets and pure damage armor/accessories with a greatsword is bad in dungeons. However, this is the most simple yet effective warrior build and greatswords are probably the most fun weapon.

4 signets and “For Great Justice,” on the other hand, is really good (perma fury). Base stats wins in PvE, which signets and the +40 precision trait provides. Combined with knight’s armor, you have a great mix of damage and survivability.

I think I’m missing something… how does that give you permanent fury? FGJ can give you permanent might by itself, but not fury. Using that and sig of rage might do it, although it could take you some cooldown traits and/or boon extension traits/gear. I think mine might be almost permanent that way, but I’ve never tried to keep it up forever before. But if you were doing that, you’ll only get the precision from three signets. Is that still worth it by then?

Signet builds are good at low levels because the amount of precision needed for high crit rates is lower at those levels. This means you get in excess of 90% crit for a few days there, but once it starts tapering off in the 50s or so there’s more useful things to do with your slots.

Not that the signets are bad, but rather using five of them at the expense of everything else we have going on is bad.

I’m actually thinking the opposite of Signet/GS warriors these days. Everyone seems to be a defensive spec and there is no one actually doing damage anymore (especially in a burst fashion) whether they are support/CC/condition based.

Now if the GS/Signet warrior keeps falling over every time they get into melee range, that’s a different story.

Seriously, the warriors that make the spec glow are the ones with the most experience in most fights from what I’ve experienced. It’s the bad ones who have no idea where to position and what telegraphs to look for that makes the spec bad in group settings. Group AoE vulnerability stacking (the “1” on Greatsword) is unbelievable in DPS support.

I’m also not sure I agree that spamming shouts or banners basically on cooldown is “more difficult” and doesn’t make that warrior-player any better.

Note, on my GS/Signet warrior, I can run a ~98% crit gear setup because of the +Prec Signet talent (and FGJ/Signet of Rage for perma-Fury). It is devastation.

I don’t knock 5 signet warriors one bit. I find it funny when players argue back and forth in map chat about it. Personally, if the player plays bad, signets or not they will be bad. My build was signets up until 40 or so then I want more out of the build. Why have utilities that I never use? What does this cool banner do?

No matter what there is always a way to build your character to make an impact no matter what you do.

Edit “or not”

I am a 5 signet warr with GS and rifle but i only use that when im doing solo pve/ event farming i change kitten all the time when i run a dungeon or if im running wvw. I agree sig warr’s is not the best build but when doing mindless farming its not bad. however i switch between ability’s all the time in between fights depending on whats going to be needed most. just as i adjust certain traits depending on the type of game play i am doing that’s the beauty about the way the skill system in this game works i can switch on the fly.

Depends on the player. I won’t condemn anyone until I see them actually play their class.

They contribute nothing to the group what so ever, and if i find one in a pug group i will leave in most cases.

Despite what people may think, extra DPS isn’t nothing. It’s only nothing if the player dies.

5 sigs are a great way to go around farming/soloing but I personally feel they are lacking for anything that has to do with groups, of course it could just be that the players I’ve encountered that run that build were bad and would have been bad in any other build but I find it strange that they were running signets 90% of the time….

I don’t judge if someone is a 5-Signet Warrior as long as they know how to play it properly. A lot of 5-Signet Warriors seem to forget that you can actually USE your Signets and remove your conditions and grant stability! When used properly, it’s a pretty awesome build!

But don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a decent build. I just think there’s better options though.

I’m a fan of the signet/GS in solo play, but never ever use all 5 signets. There are situations where I want “Shake it off” or “Great Justice” or even “Fear me!”, Usually running with two shouts in a group, a Healing Signet (passive heal is very nice btw), Signet of Rage and the Precision signet, any more is just not worth it. If the boss is plain melee unfriendly I still have a longbow to dish out blindness, root and a fire combo field.
But yeah, it’s a high damage, glass cannon, If the player doesn’t know the encounter and thus not avoiding the damage he/she will die alot.

I play Signet warrior – 4 signets + shout to remove conditions.
I play sword + axe and as second either longbow or rifle depending on situation (AoE or ST)

Signet warriors as almost every spec have their strong sides. The grief we getting is due to some ppl using the signet build for every situation use.

Signet build is great in the following specs / situations:

1) a crit base build – i use a bleed – cond dmg build. The extra precision from the signet build helps nicely here, especially when i am using tanky gear.
2) when enemy is retreating – it hasn’t been once or twice that i end up playing the role of a hound for my group: sword+ axe/ rifle and a signet build gives me 2 cripples, a 30s speed selfbuff and a jump. It is very easy to catch someone and cripple them for the other behind to finish. And as we know a good cleanup after a victory can be very important
3) Dungeons – Shake it off + 4 signets and a rifle is a great combo for any dungeon boss – especially when the boss is melee unfriendly.

signets are amazing that’s the problem, ignoring the precision trait which is rather weak at 80, signets themselves are very good.

One removes ALL conditions on you, the other grands stability for 8 sec, other gives instant full adrenaline. That on it’s own is better than alternatives like shouts berserk only starts adrenaline gaining, it’s too slow, shake it off only removes 1 conditio.

Now look at passives, damage reduction, double endurance regen (it is so so so helpful, along with building momentum you can roll around at all times barely taking damage) and fianlly passive 90precision, thats 4% crit.

Of course shouts become much better, as banners do too but only if you spec into them and then you play support role. I had guardian and I was playing as support, got bored of it, I rolled warrior to chop chop chop em down!

Point I am making is, signets offer amazing passive and very good emergency buffs for damage oriented warrior, and when I say damage oriented I do not mean glass canon, I am rocking toughness power precision gear and traited for defence arms and strenght, so I am no glass, I can take quite a few hits and I still hit for loads.

The only real substitute I can find for signets is mending and frenzy, the latter is situational and feels like one trick pony skill.

Find me something that works better for my hammer and I will use it.

I kick people who complain about other’s spec or weapon choice. Narrow-minded trash have no place in my groups.

If they use the actives it’s ok. Unfortunately there are some who leveled with passive signets (as I did until 40 – minus the greatsword) and just take that same approach into dungeons.

I do understand the sentiment though. If I group with another warrior it’s usually a signet/GS+Rifle build.

The funny thing is I use greatsword+rifle because those are the only decent exotics which ever dropped for me. Everything else is blue.

5sig is as useful as a full wammo.

Just depends on the player.

Now the GS on the other hand… Fun. But trivial. I’ve found dual swords or sword/shield works much better with full sigs as it gives you decent amount of survivability (bleed kiting and block).

For the sake of the thread, here is some stats to make comparison with signet stacking and non signet stackers.

At base stats, lvl 80, with no traits invested in anything, and no gear on, warrior stats
are the following:

Power: 916
Precision: 916
Toughness: 916
Vitality: 916
Critical Chance: 4%
Armor: 916
Attack: 916
Health: 18,372

No Gear on, no traits, Mighty, Fury, and Dolyak Signet equipped.:

Power: 1006
Precision: 1006
Toughness: 1006
Vitality: 916
Critical Chance: 8%
Armor: 1006
Attack: 1006
Health: 18,372

No Gear on, Mighty, Fury, Dolyak, Healing, and Rage signet on, with 10 in Arms tree for
+40 unused signet trait

Power: 1006
Precision: 1306
Toughness: 1006
Vitality: 916
Critical Chance: 23%
Armor: 1006
Attack: 1006
Health: 18,372

Just wanted to toss this out, but the crit value of the signet stacking can be achieved by one shout, For Great Justice.

4 Signet GS + FGJ for perma-fury creating 100% crit rate, +80% total crit damage, super might boon stacking, while having the magic that is Adrenaline Health in Toughness plus any Food choice for WvW/dungeon PvE/solo is my spec choice of preference.

If ANet ever gets around to fixing Superior Rune of the Pack bug, the build will have 10 talent points to allocate in a more effective DPS area as well.

Fair warning: Do not judge a player based on signets O.o

Anybody can argue about their stats, I hit blah blah blah, I’m contantly at blah blah blah stacks of blah! But the reality of it is that the signet stacking warrior is a solo build. Argue all you want about how you play, how high you hit, how high your crit is, etc etc. It will not change the fact that the build itself offers absolutely no group utility in the slightest. It’s a solo build.

GS + Signets does not mean no group utility (warriors have a second weapon set) or even for that matter, glass cannon (warrior have other talent points to allocate besides precision). Even Rune sets can be group utility if chosen by a warrior. But even then, the “1” spammable GS ability is AoE vulnerability.

It’s hard to explain because I think we are encountering an entire different class of player level expertise.

But if your definition of group utility is only healing, well, then you have two options – and you’re right, Signet builds can’t do that.

Oh hey, it’s this thread again!

Well, if a warrior has 5 signets and never uses em, then that’s bad.
I use 5 signets on my warrior build and I use all of em depending on the situation.
Just relying on the passive bonuses is stupid.

I can keep my minor dmg reduction from Dolyak signet active for some time and get stunlocked by an agry mob of chars or I can use it to gain stability and being able to avoid the dmg.

I can suffer through the 12 stacks of bleeding and 1 minute poison on top of that or just remove them by using the signet of stamina and have little bit less of stamina regen for a short period.

I can keep the Signet of might as it is granting 90 power all the time or have 175 power+ 175 condition dmg for 11s every 20s (thanks to the traits).

Signet of healing is pretty much just a “oh kitten” button.

And on top of that there’s a very nice trait for warriors that reduces signet cooldown by 20%.

So imho, signets are just like any other utility skill only with an added extra effect and warriors that have signet builds shouldn’t be frowned upon just because they are using em, but consideration should be given to IF they are using em and more importantly when.

Well considering Healing Signet’s recharge is about 14 with the trait, and it heals an average of 3.5k hp, that’s nearly 4k HP every 14 secs, right? Comparing with Healing Surge, which is 8k every 30 secs IF your adrenaline is full? Wouldn’t Healing Signet be superior if this is the case?

I honestly don’t understand 5 signet warriors. Banner of Discipline gives 90 precision to your whole party with nearly 100% uptime and 10% crit damage. FGJ and Signet of Rage will give you tons of might on top of 100% fury uptime. This give your more crit and more damage than 5 signets, and still leaves open your healing slot and one utility slot for SIO/EP etc.

And if you’re in a fight where you don’t need to use a ranged weapon, 20 points in discipline lets you use 100b, then switch to dual axes and burst/whirling axe/dual strike/cyclone axe/100b/burst etc. Putting a sigil of blood of one axe with Omnomberry pies is like having a second heal when you go through your axe aoes. It’s more dps, more survivability and more utility than 5 signet GS and requires very little work.

Yes. They are bad and should feel bad.

Signet builds work well in early game, but their main strength comes from the flat precision bonus, which becomes much weaker in higher levels, such that it’s not worth taking over level 60.
There’s no group support at all, no defense, no CC, no period of learning to actually use utilities.

Basically, it’s the W/Mo with Mending from GW1

It’s actually closer to 40 or 50 that a straight signet build becomes less group oriented. It’s also not dependent on precision from the single signet supplying that stat in such weak amount. And, contrary to your statement, there is still support in the form of defense and cc in a signet build. If a warrior, even in a signet build, hasn’t learned to utilize class utilities by level 40 they can’t blame anyone or anything but themselves.

Caliga Meshima.4768:

Just wanted to toss this out, but the crit value of the signet stacking can be achieved by one shout, For Great Justice.

You forgot to mention that the crit bonus from signet stacking STACKS with for great justice or any other source of fury.

I used 5 signets with dual axes until lvl60 or so, after which I realized I could really use the active effects of signets more often, and other skills which could actually save me if I got into a tight spot… Now I’m running stability (cooldown is a fair bit less than on signet version, extra toughness from signet isn’t worth it anymore imo), For Great Justice to compensate for dropping the might signet (pays itself back very fast when there are others around as well), third utility skill changes based on situation. Usually Fear Me, Stomp, or zero damage. I also switched out the signet heal, as I felt that if I activated the signet for a rather meager immediate heal, I’d lose the health regeneration, and ended up shooting myself in the foot, so to say.

5 signets build worked great for me in the low levels though, some serious damage with near 100% crit rates. Didn’t cut it for me at high levels though, as I felt I was underperforming. I’m not sure if greatsword adds to the build in any way, I’ve never felt comfortable with that weapon (rooted in place & forced movement), but that’s a whole another issue…

As an experienced Warrior, here is the general rule when judging a Warrior:

Signet build @ 80 = terribad
Never swaps weapons = very bad
Axe off-hand = bad
Mace/Shield+healing shouts = look at how he plays. If he never swaps he’s a Guardian wannabe and falls into bad category

Everything else is acceptable.

How is dual axes bad? Axes have the strongest auto attack of all the warrior weapon sets. the adrenaline gain with that weapon set is higher than all the others, and eviscerate on a full adrenaline bar is just a devastating spike.

Caliga Meshima.4768:

How is dual axes bad? Axes have the strongest auto attack of all the warrior weapon sets. the adrenaline gain with that weapon set is higher than all the others, and eviscerate on a full adrenaline bar is just a devastating spike.

That is true for main hand axe.
Axe off-hand is a joke. It’s been nerfed down to useless.

Well, at first I looked at 5 signet users as bad, but now I use them too. My reason is that I have a trait that gives me more precision for each signet, and pair that with some other precision/ critical hit chance buffs and my swords do a rather large amount of damage

i actually got yelled at for using a rifle in one cof run lol.

Signet builds are nifty for soloing, but critical chance itself tends to have diminishing returns as you get more of it. In addition, as you level up, you would need more precision to maintain your desired critical chance percentage.

As far as group support goes … nope. See here in this wiki page and note that their signets only benefit themselves and not others; so they obviously wouldn’t be able to provide group utility.

Full-signet builds were fun for some of us while we leveled up, but if a Warrior needs support others and has to assist in synergizing with their teammate’s abilities, then they’ll have to realize that they need to bring a Shout, or a Banner to help out. That’s not saying signets themselves are bad. In fact, I’ll use either Signet of Stamina or Dolyak Signet depending on the situation. I just think that signets are poorly utilized for some folks. Crap! I got a stack of bleeds, poison, confuse, and burning on me! But if I pop my Signet of Stamina, I’ll lose my precious DPS! Crap!

Personally, I’ll give them a chance in my group, just like every stranger I invite into my groups, and see if they can hold their own. If they can’t … well …