Guild Wars 2

On my way home from work, I was thinking about the current state of warrior sustain and how it relates to the rest of the professions. As I thought about it, I realized that every other profession has some form of sustain tied to their innate profession mechanics that doesn’t rely on traits. Here are the examples:

Elementalist: Secondary healing from weapon skills in Water Attunement
Engineer: Secondary healing from bonus healing ability (F1)
Guardian: Aegis and secondary healing from Virtues
Mesmer: Presence of clones as secondary targets/Distortion via shatters
Necromancer: Secondary life bar from Death Shroud
Ranger: Presence of pet as secondary target/secondary healing with certain pets
Thief: Stealth/Secondary healing/sustain boons via Steal

Warriors do not have any sort of secondary sustain mechanic related to adrenaline that doesn’t involve traits (e.g. Adrenal Health, Cleansing Ire). However, I have come up with a possible idea for such a mechanic. Here’s how it works:

With each strike of adrenaline, the warrior gains a very small amount of healing; this healing would be the same for each strike gained and no extra healing would be provided for reaching a full bar. Additionally, when a burst skill was used and the adrenaline was spent, the warrior would receive a burst of healing for each bar spent. This would require a rework to burst skills that would cause the adrenaline to be spent regardless of whether or not we connected with a target (a suggested change I’ve seen in multiple threads; one I agree with).

The numbers for this healing could be tweaked to prevent too much healing. Additionally, the current amount of adrenaline generation we have access to (e.g. Furious, Shapened Axes) could be either toned down or incorporated into weapon balance (e.g. axes could become a high self-healing weapon option) to also prevent too much healing or otherwise bring the mechanic into a balanced state. Adrenal Health could either be removed, rebalanced, or kept as is, depending on how the developers would want the trait to work with this mechanic.

This was just an idea I came up with on a drive home. There may be potential flaws with it, but I figured I’d at least get it out there on the forums.

I like it, but not the losing adrenaline if you dont hit. That will KILL warriors. Blind is already out of control.

Me and shin aka the OP are chatting about this on raidcall as we speak about this idea…some flaws I brought up to him were the idea that it promotes more bursty builds having more sustain aka new brawn is burst cd reduction and furious in arms tree granting addition adrenaline gain per strike etc but honestly the more we talked about it, it shouldnt be that big of a deal as from range your not being focussed too much anyway and it would provide that melee sustain we need in such a heavy aoe condi meta. We talked about the idea of glass cannon 30 fire 30 air ele’s do still have water but doesnt do much but the 30 water builds obviously gives that water attunement more prevalence….so hear is my idea….make the adrenaline gain heal and bigger burst skill use heal similar to the sustain that water attunement abilities provide if your glass cannon based and change the terrible terrible terrible tactics minors to boost this sustain idea.

This still lends itself to counterplay through cc’ing out which we are definitely still suspectiple. Interesting things to think about.

Cygnus.6903:

I like it, but not the losing adrenaline if you dont hit. That will KILL warriors. Blind is already out of control.

Having the loss of adrenaline though would raise the skill ceiling having to decide whether you want to lose those passive sitting on adrenaline skills like 15% crit chance by sitting on adrenaline things like that, as well as FINALLY MAKE CLEANSING IRE WORK THEREFORE BLIND LOSES OPNESS sorry for caps but god friggin dammit perfect fix for cleansing ire is perfect.

Watch it be a 30 point trait in tactics and compulsory for any warrior who wants to remotely contribute to a match.

It WOULD be pretty hilarious to have every warrior forced to go 20 into defense for cleansing ire and 30 into tactics for this, admit it.

Jzaku.9765:

Watch it be a 30 point trait in tactics and compulsory for any warrior who wants to remotely contribute to a match.

It WOULD be pretty hilarious to have every warrior forced to go 20 into defense for cleansing ire and 30 into tactics for this, admit it.

Minor traits so it’d be 25 =P but I dont know ele’s now aren’t mandatory to go 30 into water anymore I think it’d be a similar idea…there is certainly a way to promote a nice number % between baseline and trait boostage.

I like the idea of it being a base mechanic over a trait (of course). But I don’t know about healing on gaining adrenaline (I don’t PvP much so I don’t know how the higher tiers operate), but it seems a bit over powered. Signet of Fury becomes a mini heal, bursting does damage and heals, then weapon swap for more adrenaline and heal more. Like I said I’m mostly thinking from a PvE/fractals perspective not from PvP. But healing with “every” attack seems a big strong, doesn’t it?

Edit: Still though, I think this is one of the better ideas I’ve seen in a while.

well Im curious whether the engine would support this idea strictly from a only when gaining adrenaline from striking and not from things like signet of fury etc. And honestly….I think the sustain granted isnt going to be that big of a deal in PvE because any mechanic a big bad boss does to you will still kitten your kitten up. Your not magically going to be solo’ing champions and beast moding fractals because of some extra heals you have….all IMO of course

An alteration to this idea I thought of at work today could be that the healing per strike is baseline, but the healing on burst could be traited (such as an Adrenal Health rework).

I have an idea for warrior sustain. We can start by making our skills not telegraph so kittening badly that any enemy with half a brain has time to avoid and punish us just for using them. That would probably help us sustain ourselves in combat longer, comparatively.

Sil.4560:

I have an idea for warrior sustain. We can start by making our skills not telegraph so kittening badly that any enemy with half a brain has time to avoid and punish us just for using them. That would probably help us sustain ourselves in combat longer, comparatively.

i like the telegraph moves because it sends a in your face message, but aftercast time is really awful

…an “in your face message” is what allows players to easily dodge our most powerful hits. Why would this be a good thing?

In the bolded letters you describe all of the neat things that other classes to help their sustain but you pretend like warriors don’t have an advantage like the others do. Warriors are the only class to have maximum base HP AND base armor. Just throwing that out there. I think its really silly how often people forget that fact considering how important it is.

A red message should pop up whenever warriors use an attack saying dodge or block or evade, this would teach new players how to pvp!

Turbo Whale.1738:

In the bolded letters you describe all of the neat things that other classes to help their sustain but you pretend like warriors don’t have an advantage like the others do. Warriors are the only class to have maximum base HP AND base armor. Just throwing that out there. I think its really silly how often people forget that fact considering how important it is.

Have you even played PvP

Highest Armor and HP mean absolutely nothing compared to the damage negation other classes can put out.

Heavy Armor equals about 250 toughness. (3.63% Damage Reduction.)

Protection = 2750 Toughness. (33% Damage Reduction.)

What is better?

Daecollo.9578:

Heavy Armor equals about 250 toughness. (3.63% Damage Reduction.)

Protection = 2750 Toughness. (33% Damage Reduction.)

What is better?

This x1000000 people dont understand how little extra armor health do as baseline etc….2 classes that have always been in meta from launch….guardian and ele both with terribly low health pools….and protect as daecollo mentions here….yea enough said.

What’s hilarious is that there are actually guardians over on those forums who believe that they need their HP buffed to match warriors’.

Zanthrax.6538:

Cygnus.6903:

I like it, but not the losing adrenaline if you dont hit. That will KILL warriors. Blind is already out of control.

Having the loss of adrenaline though would raise the skill ceiling having to decide whether you want to lose those passive sitting on adrenaline skills like 15% crit chance by sitting on adrenaline things like that, as well as FINALLY MAKE CLEANSING IRE WORK THEREFORE BLIND LOSES OPNESS sorry for caps but god friggin dammit perfect fix for cleansing ire is perfect.

And what about those not using cleansing Ire?

Sil.4560:

…an “in your face message” is what allows players to easily dodge our most powerful hits. Why would this be a good thing?

because its funny to see you opponents dodge weak flashy attack

it not fun to be rooted with a hit me sign

Jzaku.9765:

Turbo Whale.1738:

In the bolded letters you describe all of the neat things that other classes to help their sustain but you pretend like warriors don’t have an advantage like the others do. Warriors are the only class to have maximum base HP AND base armor. Just throwing that out there. I think its really silly how often people forget that fact considering how important it is.

Have you even played PvP

Highest Armor and HP mean absolutely nothing compared to the damage negation other classes can put out.

I don’t care what kind of ridiculous hyperboles you use. The bottom line is that we DO have the highest base hp and armor and it DOES matter. People need to remember this. I’m not saying it can effectively rival sustain of other classes but I’m saying that we need to remember that it is there.

Turbo Whale.1738:

Jzaku.9765:

Turbo Whale.1738:

In the bolded letters you describe all of the neat things that other classes to help their sustain but you pretend like warriors don’t have an advantage like the others do. Warriors are the only class to have maximum base HP AND base armor. Just throwing that out there. I think its really silly how often people forget that fact considering how important it is.

Have you even played PvP

Highest Armor and HP mean absolutely nothing compared to the damage negation other classes can put out.

I don’t care what kind of ridiculous hyperboles you use. The bottom line is that we DO have the highest base hp and armor and it DOES matter. People need to remember this. I’m not saying it can effectively rival sustain of other classes but I’m saying that we need to remember that it is there.

I’d rather have cloth armor and 10k hp, and buffs that makes me take 75% less damage.

High Armor doesn’t matter in this game, it makes little difference actually.

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Jzaku.9765:

Turbo Whale.1738:

In the bolded letters you describe all of the neat things that other classes to help their sustain but you pretend like warriors don’t have an advantage like the others do. Warriors are the only class to have maximum base HP AND base armor. Just throwing that out there. I think its really silly how often people forget that fact considering how important it is.

Have you even played PvP

Highest Armor and HP mean absolutely nothing compared to the damage negation other classes can put out.

I don’t care what kind of ridiculous hyperboles you use. The bottom line is that we DO have the highest base hp and armor and it DOES matter. People need to remember this. I’m not saying it can effectively rival sustain of other classes but I’m saying that we need to remember that it is there.

I’d rather have cloth armor and 10k hp, and buffs that makes me take 75% less damage.

High Armor doesn’t matter in this game, it makes little difference actually.

How do you expect people to take you seriously? You constantly demand balance here and there and demand anet to rain buffs on the warrior because “balance” when you don’t even understand the difference between light and heavy armor. Not only that but you seem to think there exists a buff that makes you take 75% less damage. Are you daft?

Turbo Whale.1738:

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Jzaku.9765:

Turbo Whale.1738:

In the bolded letters you describe all of the neat things that other classes to help their sustain but you pretend like warriors don’t have an advantage like the others do. Warriors are the only class to have maximum base HP AND base armor. Just throwing that out there. I think its really silly how often people forget that fact considering how important it is.

Have you even played PvP

Highest Armor and HP mean absolutely nothing compared to the damage negation other classes can put out.

I don’t care what kind of ridiculous hyperboles you use. The bottom line is that we DO have the highest base hp and armor and it DOES matter. People need to remember this. I’m not saying it can effectively rival sustain of other classes but I’m saying that we need to remember that it is there.

I’d rather have cloth armor and 10k hp, and buffs that makes me take 75% less damage.

High Armor doesn’t matter in this game, it makes little difference actually.

How do you expect people to take you seriously? You constantly demand balance here and there and demand anet to rain buffs on the warrior because “balance” when you don’t even understand the difference between light and heavy armor. Not only that but you seem to think there exists a buff that makes you take 75% less damage. Are you daft?

I like how you took that seriously when I was pretty much exaggerating.

The difference between light/heavy armor is about 300 toughness, a piece of soldiers gear. Not that much at all.

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Jzaku.9765:

Turbo Whale.1738:

In the bolded letters you describe all of the neat things that other classes to help their sustain but you pretend like warriors don’t have an advantage like the others do. Warriors are the only class to have maximum base HP AND base armor. Just throwing that out there. I think its really silly how often people forget that fact considering how important it is.

Have you even played PvP

Highest Armor and HP mean absolutely nothing compared to the damage negation other classes can put out.

I don’t care what kind of ridiculous hyperboles you use. The bottom line is that we DO have the highest base hp and armor and it DOES matter. People need to remember this. I’m not saying it can effectively rival sustain of other classes but I’m saying that we need to remember that it is there.

I’d rather have cloth armor and 10k hp, and buffs that makes me take 75% less damage.

High Armor doesn’t matter in this game, it makes little difference actually.

How do you expect people to take you seriously? You constantly demand balance here and there and demand anet to rain buffs on the warrior because “balance” when you don’t even understand the difference between light and heavy armor. Not only that but you seem to think there exists a buff that makes you take 75% less damage. Are you daft?

I like how you took that seriously when I was pretty much exaggerating.

The difference between light/heavy armor is about 300 toughness, a piece of soldiers gear. Not that much at all.

Please show me the piece of armor that has 300 toughness on it. Go ahead. Honestly at this point (actually a while ago) it is clear that you are a troll seeking attention so goodbye.

Turbo Whale.1738:

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Jzaku.9765:

Turbo Whale.1738:

In the bolded letters you describe all of the neat things that other classes to help their sustain but you pretend like warriors don’t have an advantage like the others do. Warriors are the only class to have maximum base HP AND base armor. Just throwing that out there. I think its really silly how often people forget that fact considering how important it is.

Have you even played PvP

Highest Armor and HP mean absolutely nothing compared to the damage negation other classes can put out.

I don’t care what kind of ridiculous hyperboles you use. The bottom line is that we DO have the highest base hp and armor and it DOES matter. People need to remember this. I’m not saying it can effectively rival sustain of other classes but I’m saying that we need to remember that it is there.

I’d rather have cloth armor and 10k hp, and buffs that makes me take 75% less damage.

High Armor doesn’t matter in this game, it makes little difference actually.

How do you expect people to take you seriously? You constantly demand balance here and there and demand anet to rain buffs on the warrior because “balance” when you don’t even understand the difference between light and heavy armor. Not only that but you seem to think there exists a buff that makes you take 75% less damage. Are you daft?

I like how you took that seriously when I was pretty much exaggerating.

The difference between light/heavy armor is about 300 toughness, a piece of soldiers gear. Not that much at all.

Please show me the piece of armor that has 300 toughness on it. Go ahead. Honestly at this point (actually a while ago) it is clear that you are a troll seeking attention so goodbye.

The 80 Exotic Chestplate alone has 363 armor (toughness.)

Toughness and Armor are the exact same stat.

The difference in armor for Light/Heavy is (49)!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mad_King%27s_Overcoat#Heavy

You can check the statistics here.

Now please stop posting, you have no idea how the game works and your embarassing yourself.

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Jzaku.9765:

Turbo Whale.1738:

In the bolded letters you describe all of the neat things that other classes to help their sustain but you pretend like warriors don’t have an advantage like the others do. Warriors are the only class to have maximum base HP AND base armor. Just throwing that out there. I think its really silly how often people forget that fact considering how important it is.

Have you even played PvP

Highest Armor and HP mean absolutely nothing compared to the damage negation other classes can put out.

I don’t care what kind of ridiculous hyperboles you use. The bottom line is that we DO have the highest base hp and armor and it DOES matter. People need to remember this. I’m not saying it can effectively rival sustain of other classes but I’m saying that we need to remember that it is there.

I’d rather have cloth armor and 10k hp, and buffs that makes me take 75% less damage.

High Armor doesn’t matter in this game, it makes little difference actually.

How do you expect people to take you seriously? You constantly demand balance here and there and demand anet to rain buffs on the warrior because “balance” when you don’t even understand the difference between light and heavy armor. Not only that but you seem to think there exists a buff that makes you take 75% less damage. Are you daft?

I like how you took that seriously when I was pretty much exaggerating.

The difference between light/heavy armor is about 300 toughness, a piece of soldiers gear. Not that much at all.

Please show me the piece of armor that has 300 toughness on it. Go ahead. Honestly at this point (actually a while ago) it is clear that you are a troll seeking attention so goodbye.

The 80 Exotic Chestplate alone has 363 armor (toughness.)

Toughness and Armor are the exact same stat.

The difference in armor for Light/Heavy is (49)!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mad_King%27s_Overcoat#Heavy

You can check the statistics here.

Now please stop posting, you have no idea how the game works and your embarassing yourself.

You said 300 toughness is a soldier’s piece, not 300 armor. That’s like saying “my warrior has 3000 power” when you really mean 3000 attack.

Turbo Whale.1738:

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Daecollo.9578:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Jzaku.9765:

Turbo Whale.1738:

In the bolded letters you describe all of the neat things that other classes to help their sustain but you pretend like warriors don’t have an advantage like the others do. Warriors are the only class to have maximum base HP AND base armor. Just throwing that out there. I think its really silly how often people forget that fact considering how important it is.

Have you even played PvP

Highest Armor and HP mean absolutely nothing compared to the damage negation other classes can put out.

I don’t care what kind of ridiculous hyperboles you use. The bottom line is that we DO have the highest base hp and armor and it DOES matter. People need to remember this. I’m not saying it can effectively rival sustain of other classes but I’m saying that we need to remember that it is there.

I’d rather have cloth armor and 10k hp, and buffs that makes me take 75% less damage.

High Armor doesn’t matter in this game, it makes little difference actually.

How do you expect people to take you seriously? You constantly demand balance here and there and demand anet to rain buffs on the warrior because “balance” when you don’t even understand the difference between light and heavy armor. Not only that but you seem to think there exists a buff that makes you take 75% less damage. Are you daft?

I like how you took that seriously when I was pretty much exaggerating.

The difference between light/heavy armor is about 300 toughness, a piece of soldiers gear. Not that much at all.

Please show me the piece of armor that has 300 toughness on it. Go ahead. Honestly at this point (actually a while ago) it is clear that you are a troll seeking attention so goodbye.

The 80 Exotic Chestplate alone has 363 armor (toughness.)

Toughness and Armor are the exact same stat.

The difference in armor for Light/Heavy is (49)!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mad_King%27s_Overcoat#Heavy

You can check the statistics here.

Now please stop posting, you have no idea how the game works and your embarassing yourself.

You said 300 toughness is a soldier’s piece, not 300 armor. That’s like saying “my warrior has 3000 power” when you really mean 3000 attack.

300 toughness increases armor by 300. Same like 300 power increases attack by 300.

Except there are also base stats (916 of each for every class to be exact), which means that “3000 power = 3000 attack in the character sheet” is incorrect, but “300 toughness = 300 armor on a piece of equipment” is, in fact, a correct statement.

@ Turbo Whale, I understand you seem so sure of yourself and on paper it does seem to make sense … but I promise you having higher base health and armor really doesnt account for much at all…don’t you think its ironic that warriors are struggling in PvP while classes that have horrible base stats but boons to compliment are constantly in a far better situation than warriors?

I find it sad that you couldnt extract that Daecollo was exxagerating, I mean honestly. And im 100% with the people saying even though we have Heavy Armour and High HP, it means little to nothing in this game. Why are you arguing otherwise when Guardians have lowest HP pool, heavy armour, and are arguably the tankiest/best surviving class in the game?!
We have no sustain. End of story. Arena net needs to get off their couch and do something instead of constantly adding boring content. [I suppose the most recent one was decent]

loseridoit.2756:

because its funny to see you opponents dodge weak flashy attack

it not fun to be rooted with a hit me sign

Any skilled opponent is going to look for specific tells to avoid, not blow their dodge on auto attacks.

About Warrior sustain, only 3 things:

1 – Rework several skills and traits.
2 – Rework armor and dmg reduction formula(this affects all classes)
3 – Rework health and healing power formula to includes max health, this provides equal reward for the use of heals, regeneration and gear effects(healing power).
:)

My only suggestion is to implement our sustain through our weapons and light healing through traits. If we are given more options for CC such as stun, dazes, and knockdowns or even shorter duration of blocks available to all weapons then we might find our sustain without having to become a lesser version of the guardian.

Make the blocks on weapons a channel for 2 seconds (cancel to gain adrenaline) but keep the cool down low such as <15 seconds. If you give this option on all weapons, including the shield, we will have the opportunity to reduce incoming damage thus not needing protection or crazy amounts of boons to survive. Let warriors survive based on their skill with their attacks and weapons choices instead of passive bonuses. Don’t dumb down my class.

Thanks.

I think having a healing rework would help the sustain.

I always figured warriors would generate health based I how much damage we did instead of elementalists. And Elems would get what we have which is passive.

I’d like to see the signet give health based on adrenaline gained with an ICD of two seconds. Then upon expenditure of adrenaline, gives a lump sum of healing. I’d actually replace adrenal health altogether. Give us something new. Then upon activation gives gives a lump sum of healing and protection, but no regen based on adrenaline.

I love to hate choice. Warriors should be the option class. We have options for everything. Healing? Do this. Go for damage reduction instead? Do this.

Yes it raises the skill ceiling however that’s how you tell a good warrior to an exceptional warrior. One that bases choices on the battlefield and who diversifies along with it.

I’d rather have all of skills less telling, have shorter cast times and extremely short after cast time then more sustain.
Warriors are like how necros were close to viable and hard to play and a couple of slight changes would make them over the top

I still don’t get why people keep saying warriors cant sustain. I’ve been playing a successful shout heal bunker build and it takes like 10 guys to drop me. I do crap damage, but the same is true of any bunker build with any class. Doing only 5k with 100b feels weird, but I can outlast anyone. I’ve been running around with one of my guildmates who came up with the build. Ask anyone on DB if they’ve seen a redheaded human girl and a tiny asuran warrior run around who are nearly impossible to kill unless they swarm us. We can’t do much against them since they outnumber us by so much, so we’ve just been trolling them all day running up to SM then back to our base. They can only kill us when we get kitteny and stay too long getting pounded on by huge groups of them plus those freaking cannons.

thats the point of this thread. We shouldn’t have to go full bunker and go rubbish damage to gain sustain. we should be able to do good pressure damage and not be full bunker.

I’m by no means saying we should be able to do sustain in zerker gear, however in Knights gear we shouldn’t still be dropped so easily in a dps orientated spec. Nobody really worries about a warrior like they do other classes. were too easily countered and don’t have the option like other classes.

Bas has an amazing Podcast up with stacks of amazing idea that would make our gameplay dynamic and interesting again. Should go have a watch/listen.

But, no class can deal high damage and sustain itself, except for the super broken thief. They can be as glassy as they want and do 10k damage per backstab and always get away and heal to full while curing every condition on them. Everyone else either has bunker for survivability, or damage with little sustain. We do have a lot of problems. I’d like to be able to kill people faster sure. cleric’s gear sucks for damage, and speccing into our survivability traits offers amazing sustainability, but again little damage. I have little faith in Anet though to balance things correctly though. They’ve already screwed up every other class I play as. I’m still kitten ed about the frenzy nerf. Atleast warrior can still do SOME things right now. I’d like it if we stole life when we attacked. Why the hell does thief have something that can do that but we don’t? its not like they need it with their ridiculous regen while stealthed. Weren’t they supposed to fix healing signet? it still sucks. the regen is blah. Just ditch it and give us a signet that steals life with every hit. Cleansing ire sucks too. it should remove conditions as we gain adrenaline, not as we spend it.

KarlusDavius.1024:

thats the point of this thread. We shouldn’t have to go *full* bunker and go rubbish damage to gain sustain. we should be able to do *good* pressure damage and *not* be full bunker.

I’m by no means saying we should be able to do sustain in zerker gear, however in Knights gear we shouldn’t still be dropped so easily in a dps orientated spec. Nobody really worries about a warrior like they do other classes. were too easily countered and don’t have the option like other classes.

Bas has an amazing Podcast up with stacks of amazing idea that would make our gameplay dynamic and interesting again. Should go have a watch/listen.

To clarify, we have good burst capabilities and we have decent bunker, granted it is still noticeably less effective than guardians but somehow we don’t have middle of the road? See when I read your statement it almost sounds like we don’t have good damage mixed with good survival. Are you asking for an almost GC build + good sustain? What type of stats are you asking for? Are you trying to say, for example, that you want warriors to have a similar option to guardians where they can spec in an AH build and 1v3 fairly well?

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a build posted by Matale which would prove that theory that it is possible.

Before I started using the cleric/bunker build I was using this. http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.3|1.1g.h15|c.1g.h8.c.1g.h1l|1n.7c.1c.7c.1n.7c.1c.7c.1n.7c.1c.7c|1n.61.1i.67.1i.67.1n.61.1n.61.1i.67|k35.a5.k28.0.k3a|15.7|5y.64.6g.6i.6m|e
obviously some things have changes since then since our traits are different now. and you have to be careful of when you swap weapons because of the sigils. I just counted down in my head keeping track of the internal cooldowns.

try it out. it has good dps and sustainability. It’s somewhere in the middle, but still missing something. I really do like the idea of us stealing life with a signet though. If anyone here has played Diablo 2 before, do you remember zeal paladin and how amazing it was with just a simple lifesteal weapon? all you really needed was a 3-5% lifesteal on hit and you’d never die if you geared yourself correctly. I’m hoping warrior can someday be like that. only a few simple changes would be needed that would make us really good without being stupidly overpowered. Change cleansing ire so it removes conditions as we gain adrenaline rather than as we spend it, and change healing signet so it steals life per hit. Also one more change I want to make is our burst abilities. Most of them suck and aren’t worth using. They should be massive attacks that are sort of like finishing moves. they’re just a waste to use them. The single handed sword one is good, but sword itself isn’t that great, which sucks cuz I love dual wielding swords. I just wish they were better.

The point is glass cannon or not every other class has sustain tied into their profession unique mechanic…regardless of gear or trait choices….ele water form engi heal kit guardian virtue etc etc etc. Warriors HAVE to trait and gear to get some form of sustain.

Nikkinella.8254:

I still don’t get why people keep saying warriors cant sustain. I’ve been playing a successful shout heal bunker build and it takes like 10 guys to drop me

yea…. about that

warriors sustain is bad in spvp and tpvp and your build is probably utter garbage in the heart of the mist

wvwvw balance is completely different because of stat allocation and overpowered food buffs

Turbo Whale.1738:

In the bolded letters you describe all of the neat things that other classes to help their sustain but you pretend like warriors don’t have an advantage like the others do. Warriors are the only class to have maximum base HP AND base armor. Just throwing that out there. I think its really silly how often people forget that fact considering how important it is.

I really hate every time i read a comment like this maybe you play cof p1 all day oh don’t brag about high level fractals because it’s different my friend let me tell you something my guardian has 13k hp full zerker i can pawned a warrior with 20k+ hp and higher armors why don’t you ask yourself why the heck in pvp you mostly see thief, mesmers , ele , guards , necro but not warriors well thank’s to the latest patch it give use a little fighting chance for heavy condi builds but that’s not enough oh you might ask aren’t you so greed for power? No my friend actually what i like is the balance of every class just like how i remember PVP in guild wars 1 you can tell that people are not force to play certain class because they are stronger than other but they played it because it’s the class that they most enjoyed playing with but here in GW2 i don’t need to tell you that. If you try to join pvp you will see what i mean my mesmer i don’t to be a pro to be on rampage just shatter shatter boom and i admit it’s fun mesmer doesn’t have high hp and armor and also a guardian try to build a bunker guardian and bunker warrior well if it’s legit to call a warrior a bunker because warrior there is no such thing as bunker warrior then join pvp and you will see that higher base hp and armor doesn’t count unless you are playing other MMO but not with GW2

loseridoit.2756:

Nikkinella.8254:

I still don’t get why people keep saying warriors cant sustain. I’ve been playing a successful shout heal bunker build and it takes like 10 guys to drop me

yea…. about that

warriors sustain is bad in spvp and tpvp and your build is probably utter garbage in the heart of the mist

wvwvw balance is completely different because of stat allocation and overpowered food buffs

I’ve said many times on various different threads how much I despise that lame esport wannabe that is spvp. I’m speaking purely of wvw. I’m aware that things are way different in spvp. Warriors and thieves suck there, but are gods in wvw. Rangers and eles were powerful in spvp, but are now utter garbage in wvw. Necros, guardians, engineers, and mesmers seem to do fine in both oddly enough. I mainly hate spvp because I like using odd stat combinations in builds no one else uses. I’m very limited in what I can do in spvp. Don’t have as much creative freedom there.

Zanthrax.6538:

The point is glass cannon or not every other class has sustain tied into their profession unique mechanic…regardless of gear or trait choices….ele water form engi heal kit guardian virtue etc etc etc. Warriors HAVE to trait and gear to get some form of sustain.

This exactly. We need to build everything around that sustain which hurts burst or whatever else. Unlike say elementalists, who are now thinking full celestial gear as they can use every attribute to dramatic effect!

Nikkinella.8254:

loseridoit.2756:

Nikkinella.8254:

I still don’t get why people keep saying warriors cant sustain. I’ve been playing a successful shout heal bunker build and it takes like 10 guys to drop me

yea…. about that

warriors sustain is bad in spvp and tpvp and your build is probably utter garbage in the heart of the mist

wvwvw balance is completely different because of stat allocation and overpowered food buffs

I’ve said many times on various different threads how much I despise that lame esport wannabe that is spvp. I’m speaking purely of wvw. I’m aware that things are way different in spvp. Warriors and thieves suck there, but are gods in wvw. Rangers and eles were powerful in spvp, but are now utter garbage in wvw. Necros, guardians, engineers, and mesmers seem to do fine in both oddly enough. I mainly hate spvp because I like using odd stat combinations in builds no one else uses. I’m very limited in what I can do in spvp. Don’t have as much creative freedom there.

In wvw protection still gives 33% damage reduction an equivalent of ~2700 armor…..the difference between our warriors " highest base armor and heavy armor " ~4% damage reduction at ~280-320 armor gain.

I promise you, the base armor and health we get is sweet kitten all. WvW we do good in groups yes…100% agree wvw we are solid….solo roaming average at best….small group and zergs if we build and trait right….very very solid….

Regardless tell me how highest base armor etc competes with 2700 armor from protection….please do note warriors have NO ACCESS TO PROTECTION AT ALL!….The only way we EVER see protection is 20 points into a pathetic excuse of a traitline called tactics picking up quickened warhorn abilities that converts boons…..and vunerability converts into protection….they dont put vunerability we dont get protection.

Feel free to attempt rebuttal

Nikkinella.8254:

loseridoit.2756:

Nikkinella.8254:

I still don’t get why people keep saying warriors cant sustain. I’ve been playing a successful shout heal bunker build and it takes like 10 guys to drop me

yea…. about that

warriors sustain is bad in spvp and tpvp and your build is probably utter garbage in the heart of the mist

wvwvw balance is completely different because of stat allocation and overpowered food buffs

I’ve said many times on various different threads how much I despise that lame esport wannabe that is spvp. I’m speaking purely of wvw. I’m aware that things are way different in spvp. Warriors and thieves suck there, but are gods in wvw. Rangers and eles were powerful in spvp, but are now utter garbage in wvw. Necros, guardians, engineers, and mesmers seem to do fine in both oddly enough. I mainly hate spvp because I like using odd stat combinations in builds no one else uses. I’m very limited in what I can do in spvp. Don’t have as much creative freedom there.

few things
eles are not utter garbage in wvwvw

allowing players their own odd stat combination will make the game impossible to balance.

i find wvwvw a horrible place to test builds. players range from decent to l2p. in addition, other players maybe using bad gear combinations.

if you reallywant to test your build,then you have to fight players such as zoose or osicat. fighting very bad players does not valid warrior sustain

I think people need to look at sustain a bit different. Most think of sustain as just more options go gain health or to reduce damage.

At the core definition sustain is the warriors ability to keep on fighting. However warrior sustain comes from mobility , utility skills and CC. These qualities allow us to disconnect from battle, disable the enemy or negate damage.

A lot compare warriors to rangers or guardians and how they get tons of passive healing/protection and they have so much sustain. In reality they just have different type of sustain. They are not nearly as mobile or can CC as well as we do.

How does this fit into spvp? Spvp is a bit harder because some types of sustain is more beneficial to the game mode then others. Sitting on points is going to benefit guardian / ranger types of sustain more then running away. That is more an issue with the way spvp is set up rather than the warrior class design.

The warrior in WvW is much different because our type of sustain shines much more then in Spvp. We can run from fights not in our favor and we can CC classes more easily due to less focus on bunkering on points. This is also the reason for the discrepancy between WvW and spvp warriors opinion on the class.

Just some thoughts to think about.

My only rebuttal is gaining the protection boon will not be a solution. Something better than protection is dodge and block mechanics. Give us more access to those on shorter cooldowns and it will solve the sustain issue.

This is not directed at anyone specific in this thread, but a general explaination/counter to why having High Armor and Base HP does not equal sustain.

Also, I’m copy pasting my prior posts at this point, sick to death of repeating myself.

Sustain as it applies to GW2, is the ability to mitigate, evade, heal, or otherwise avoid and recover from damage at a constant rate during battle.

What Warriors have is a high HP pool. This provides BURST SURVIVAL but NOT LONG TERM SUSTAIN. Having high HP but low recovery means that Warriors have a finite lifespan in battle.

To rephrase, their HP can absorb some heavy damage, which is advantage early on. But with low recovery, once that damage is taken, that burst advantage is lost. Classes with sustain, continue to benefit from the sustain advantage throughout the duration of the fight, regardless of length.

The high-hp advantage is a one time thing at the start of a battle. The sustain-advantage is a constant effect that provides its benefit from start to finish.

Do you see now why so many warriors go full-glass-dps-zerker? And why hybrid-builds are far less effective than they should be? It’s because the longer the fights go on, the less the warriors high-hp-advantage comes into play, and the more our foes sustain-advantage begins to overwhelm us.

Think about this, Warrior is also the only class that needs to spec just to GET ACCESS to alternate healing (shout/banner). Every other class gets BASELINE access to some moderate sustain, and can spec to ENHANCE these already existent sustain methods.

Examples? Lets look at who has healing outside their #6 button, with a 0/0/0/0/0.

Guard: Virtue of Resolve is the big one here. Regen passive, Heal active. The Aegis Virtue plays a tiny role here as well. Many weapon attacks and utility skills provide healing, regen, and protection. They can spec for healing symbols, altruistic healing, attack-heals on greatsword, improved virtues, etc, to enhance their healing.

Ele: Water attune regen is similar to guards virtue of resolve. Some water weapon skills such as staff, provide powerful heals which are also water fields (blasts cause additional healing). Utility skills can provide protection and regen. They can spec to boost the healing of their water skills, provide more regen, remove condis, etc.

Necro: The Death shroud effectively functions as a form of sustain. They can also leech life in small amounts. They can spec to enhance shroud and life stealing.

Thief/Mesmer: Sustain is more complicated here, but essentially comes from evasion via clones/stealth, blinds, dazes, stuns, etc. Far more difficult to quantify, but no less effective in practice.

Ranger: Ranger is a bit worse off baseline, getting less sustain than the rest (though still not as bad as war), but a spirit ranger is so tough to kill, many pvp teams use them as homepoints.