Guild Wars 2

As a long time pve warrior and recently a wvw warrior I find that outside of pve and battle standard there is little to no incentive for a warrior to waste a skill slot for a banner. And was wondering if there was a 30 point trait which allows the warrior to wear one banner samurai style for the duration of the skill would be interesting. What do my fellow battle brothers thing about this?

How would you be able to get access of the banner skills? Would you need to “drop” the banner twice? Once from your back, then once again from your hands?

What I had in mind was to make the back cast instand and use the skill once more to slam it to the ground. And it can be only used as a weapon pick up then

IFreedom.4637:

As a long time pve warrior and recently a wvw warrior I find that outside of pve and battle standard there is little to no incentive for a warrior to waste a skill slot for a banner. And was wondering if there was a 30 point trait which allows the warrior to wear one banner samurai style for the duration of the skill would be interesting. What do my fellow battle brothers thing about this?

I think you meant outside of pvp instead of pve.

I think that would be really OP because it would essentially give the warrior two passive aoe boosts for a gm trait. Right now the passive aoe boosts are considering too powerful in some areas for being what they are. The warrior one is getting moved up a tier for how strong it is. Doubling that would mean that the banner buffs would need to be seriously nerfed (hate that because I love my banners).

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

IFreedom.4637:

As a long time pve warrior and recently a wvw warrior I find that outside of pve and battle standard there is little to no incentive for a warrior to waste a skill slot for a banner. And was wondering if there was a 30 point trait which allows the warrior to wear one banner samurai style for the duration of the skill would be interesting. What do my fellow battle brothers thing about this?

I think you meant outside of pvp instead of pve.

I think that would be really OP because it would essentially give the warrior two passive aoe boosts for a gm trait. Right now the passive aoe boosts are considering too powerful in some areas for being what they are. The warrior one is getting moved up a tier for how strong it is. Doubling that would mean that the banner buffs would need to be seriously nerfed (hate that because I love my banners).

No he means outside of pve, in dungeons banner buffs are meta.

Player Character.9467:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

IFreedom.4637:

As a long time pve warrior and recently a wvw warrior I find that outside of pve and battle standard there is little to no incentive for a warrior to waste a skill slot for a banner. And was wondering if there was a 30 point trait which allows the warrior to wear one banner samurai style for the duration of the skill would be interesting. What do my fellow battle brothers thing about this?

I think you meant outside of pvp instead of pve.

I think that would be really OP because it would essentially give the warrior two passive aoe boosts for a gm trait. Right now the passive aoe boosts are considering too powerful in some areas for being what they are. The warrior one is getting moved up a tier for how strong it is. Doubling that would mean that the banner buffs would need to be seriously nerfed (hate that because I love my banners).

No he means outside of pve, in dungeons banner buffs are meta.

I’m confused, dungeons are pve.

OP said Banners are not good (enough) outside of PvE which properly means they are good in PvE.

DesertRose.2031:

OP said Banners are not good (enough) outside of PvE which properly means they are good in PvE.

What I’m confused about is that implies they aren’t really good in PvP. Is that correct? Because if that’s what was implied, it is incorrect. Banners are great in PvP. I can only think of one viable build that doesn’t use them. That would be the hammer/lb build, 0/10/30/0/30. I know it works in the 0/30/20/20/0, better in 0/20/20/30/0 but still.

Conceptually, the fix is simple (codewise, dunno)

Banners 7-9 are a TOGGLE ability, like Engineer kits.

• When toggled OFF, it stays on the warriors back, and provides it’s AOE bonuses.
• When toggled ON, it replaces the 1-5 skills
• Only the most recently toggled banner provides bonuses from the warriors back. To benefit from multiple banners, they will have to be dropped/slammed
• If ~ or 5 is pressed, the banner is dropped or slammed normally, and has a 90 second lifespan. It can be picked up as usual.
• When a banner is dropped, the banner utility button is replaced with “Recall banner” which will teleport the banner to the warriors location. CT 1/2, CD kitten .

Battle Standard would need to remain unchanged for now.

The result of these changes makes banners more mobile, but without any real critical loss of functionality. The only thing lost is the ability to ground-target summon a banner for a blast finisher. But you could simply toggle-5, which provides a blast finisher anyway.

Also, the trait Powerful banners, should cause banners to deal power-based damage and inflict 1 stack of bleed 1s, to nearby foes, every 3 seconds. This would make it more useful, regardless of build (power or condi).

i think you mean outside of PvP, becuz bunker warriors are very popular

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

What I’m confused about is that implies they aren’t really good in PvP. Is that correct?

After reading the OP yet another time I thing the meant “Expect for the elite Banner Banners are not good in WvW”.
I know Banners are good in PvE, and according to you guys there are also good in PvP so WvW is the only place left they could be lacking.

DesertRose.2031:

I know Banners are good in PvE, and according to you guys there are also good in PvP so WvW is the only place left they could be lacking.

Banners aren’t lacking in raw power, just in their ability to be utilized properly.

For example, currently to use a banner in a highly mobile fight, you need to 1. Run to your Banner (1-3s), Pick it up, (1s), Use the ability you want (1s), and then ~ quick-drop which bugs your weapon swap, or #5 Slam it (1s).

At best, you’re look at 3 seconds. At worst, you’ll spend 5-6s, and may bug out your weapon swap. That’s far too much wasted time for it to be worth using the banners abilities. And in PvP/WvW they always get left behind.

Meanwhile, Shouts are all instant-cast, which means you can focus more time on typical Warrior stuff, IE smashy smashy. Hence, my idea for making banners mobile, and far quicker to use.

They are too good in PvE and PVP, because they cant be destroyed, compared to Ranger ghosts they are OP.

whyme.3281:

They are too good in PvE and PVP, because they cant be destroyed, compared to Ranger ghosts they are OP.

Do me this simple favor: Go roll a warrior alt, leap into Heart of the Mists, and run some banners. Even hotjoin will do.

Once that’s done, try it out in WvW.

You’ll probably start to notice that banners are incredibly frustrating to use in any fight that ends more than 10 feet from where it starts.

I have a Warrior, but have you ever played a Ranger with ghosts?

They are dead in PvE, dead in WvW and can be killed in PvP. The only thing that makes them strong in PvP is the ulti ghost, that can ress the Ranger, because of his slow animation and I’m not sure if this is intended.

The Ghosts have no 100% Uptime with their Bonus, they only have 35% and need a Trait for 70% chance, that they can follow you, the Ranger needs a Grandmaster Trait.
And you want, 100% Uptime, Follow you arround and undestroyable Buffs for free? No Traits, only one utility Slot per banner, are you kidding?

whyme.3281:

And you want, 100% Uptime, Follow you arround and undestroyable Buffs for free? No Traits, only one utility Slot per banner, are you kidding?

I’m not asking for as drastic a change as you make it sound. They way you phrased it certainly lends itself to an alarming conclusion, but I think anyone who has tried to make a banner build in WvW or PvP knows better. For example, to quote myself only a few posts ago….

Banners aren’t lacking in raw power, just in their ability to be utilized properly.

For example, currently to use a banner in a highly mobile fight, you need to 1. Run to your Banner (1-3s), Pick it up, (1s), Use the ability you want (1s), and then ~ quick-drop which bugs your weapon swap, or #5 Slam it (1s).

At best, you’re looking at 3 seconds. At worst, you’ll spend 5-6s, and may bug out your weapon swap.

Does that really sound like a skill that’s balanced as is?

My suggestion isn’t as wild as you make it sound.

In static fights (PvE), it would essentially be identical. In mobile fights (WvW/PvP), you could keep a single banner with you. The other 2 could be summoned, to provide their bonuses for a few seconds, before likely being left behind again. I hardly see how that’s absurd.

whyme.3281:

And you want, 100% Uptime, Follow you arround and undestroyable Buffs for free? No Traits, only one utility Slot per banner, are you kidding?

Untraited banners don’t have 100% uptime…

Dand.8231:

whyme.3281:

They are too good in PvE and PVP, because they cant be destroyed, compared to Ranger ghosts they are OP.

Do me this simple favor: Go roll a warrior alt, leap into Heart of the Mists, and run some banners. Even hotjoin will do.

Once that’s done, try it out in WvW.

You’ll probably start to notice that banners are incredibly frustrating to use in any fight that ends more than 10 feet from where it starts.

I don’t spvp so I dont have a say in that. But I run banners in WvW and they are fine. The only thing that needs buffing is the #2 skill on banners.

kiwituatara.6053:

I don’t spvp so I dont have a say in that. But I run banners in WvW and they are fine. The only thing that needs buffing is the #2 skill on banners.

The #2 skill is unique for each Banner; which #2 do you find too weak? E.g. I don’t think that the Discipline one (Fury) is too weak.

kiwituatara.6053:

I don’t spvp so I dont have a say in that. But I run banners in WvW and they are fine. The only thing that needs buffing is the #2 skill on banners.

In regards to the #2 skills, Disc and Tactics banners seem fine. Defense and Strength banner are silly though; they should probably be updated to function like the other 3 banners, with #2 being a buff thats based on the banner type.

Strength could be 2 Might for 10s. Defense could be Protection for 4s, or maybe vigor 6s instead.

But I’m surprised you find them to be fine. I found that I spend more time managing my banner than I do actually fighting, and it only gets worse with multiple banners equipped, basically a buff-bot who ran around spamming 2-3, and looking for a combo field to 5.

While back-banners are a popular idea, I think that takes the ease-of-use of banners too far the other way. They currently occupy a nearly-unique niche in the diverse moveset that the game offers. They’re indestructible, potent and have a high uptime, but currently they’re almost unusable because of how difficult they are to manage. The issue, however, is that that clunky management system is also what keeps banners balanced.

Any change to banners needs to keep all three major game modes in mind, and avoid buffing banners into must-have territory. To this end, my suggestion is a four-part addition to banner functionality.

1: Banners can be retrieved while moving, or the action is instant.

This change is a very simple one, conceptually. Currently, warriors or their allies must pause for a considerable period to retrieve a banner. This makes picking one up on the retreat, while trying to catch up to allies or in the middle of a fight a serious disadvantage. Hell, just dropping a banner preemptively is a pain, the anticipation factor is negated largely by the animation to pick it up! With this change, many issues with banner functionality are immediately solved. Nobody minds picking up a banner as they move on or give chase when they don’t have to self-CC to do so. As banners are currently a supportive bundle, I do not think this change is too powerful; to return to offensive actions, their bearer must still drop the banner.

2: #5 is no longer a blast finisher, and can be cast while moving. Now, Banner #5 has an effect on the banner itself. When placed with #5, the banner receives a small but persistent buff to its effective radius, removed when the banner is retrieved once more.

This change addresses the fact that, for the most part, it is usually more practical to drop a banner using your weapon swap rather than placing it manually. The blast finisher is quite nice, but roots the player for time they could better spend in most other situations. Now, for a moderate cast time, the player can plant their banner more deliberately for greater coverage, or drop it unceremoniously in a pinch. I also think it is important to remove the blast finisher from this skill, given change #1, which would make chaining finishers too strong even with no other alteration.

3: Banners have a burst skill (for warriors only, of course). When holding a banner, a warrior’s F1 skill becomes a 900 range ground target (120 radius). After a short cast time and animation (quite obvious, given the huge banner they are holding), the warrior hurls their banner at high-speed into the ground at the target location, bleeding (or tormenting, maybe) foes nearby, and triggering a blast finisher. This unequips the banner from the Warrior.

This is the big change, but the one which safely (I think) increases the appeal of banners without elevating them into stupidity. Now, only their parent class has access to this new ability, but one which makes banners more mobile, more threatening and More Active. Any player with eyes can avoid or dodge such an obvious cast, but in a team situation (which the banner is for!) the humble banner becomes an active, fun and offensive tool in the warrior’s kitten nal that can also trigger combo fields more precisely.

With all three changes:
– Banners are easier to move but remain distinct from an aura centered on the warrior.
– Others will not be disadvantaged by picking up your banner, allowing better team utilization.
– It still requires effort to move and place your banners, and rewards thoughtful placement of your banners both directly (through a larger radius) and indirectly (place it right the first time, and it won’t need much moving afterwards).
– Warriors are not denied their class feature when bearing one of their classes signature utility types.
– Warriors don’t feel carrying and replanting their banner is a chore.

I also do not think these changes favor any sector of the game over others, resulting in an overpowered move. All aspects of play have the main problems with banners addressed, without destroying their core functionality.

And hey, who doesn’t want banner-javelins, am I right?

Banners are fine, what fights are you doing where banner doesn’t cover the entire area of the fight? Once the fight is over, collect your banner and move to the next fight.

Tactics/Defense are kittenty, but that’s just because defensive stats are far worse than offensive stats.

Ahlen.7591:

Banners are fine, what fights are you doing where banner doesn’t cover the entire area of the fight? Once the fight is over, collect your banner and move to the next fight.

Almost any WvW fight will spill outside the area covered by your banners, sometimes immediately. This is a lesser problem in PvP, but still a factor that limits the usefulness of banners. Most suggestions here are intended, I assume, to address the problem of banners in WvW and PvP, without affecting their viability as a PvE asset.

Ultrajoe.8674:

Almost any WvW fight will spill outside the area covered by your banners, sometimes immediately. This is a lesser problem in PvP, but still a factor that limits the usefulness of banners. Most suggestions here are intended, I assume, to address the problem of banners in WvW and PvP, without affecting their viability as a PvE asset.

Exactly.

The other part of the equation is how long they take to summon and use. They can be best compared to engi kits in that regard. Engi’s press a button, kit. Press again, no kit. Banners need to be babysat, picked up, carried, etc.

I’m not looking to have banners buffed up in the traditional sense, I just want to see a QoL improvement for them.

Yes, I’m well aware banners provide some nice AOE bonuses and kits do not.

I honestly couldn’t see myself using a banner in WvW so I hadn’t considered it. (I don’t like large scale zergs, they’re both boring AND require no skill.)

That said, I still think they’re fine as is.

I personally have no problem with them – Banners are amazing group buffs for where you can fight around your standard. In PvE they’re easy to use as you control where the fight is. PvP has points that force the fight there. WvW it’s situational – when attacking or defending a keep where your fight is localized on a wall, they work well. When you need to be mobile, they’re too clunky to use… but I see that clunkiness as part of their balance. Just use shouts or other utilities if you are not going to be in fights that would stay around your flag. Your utilities can be swapped whenever you’re out of combat, and I swap mine all the time to adapt to the situation. It’s the utilities that you never use under any situation that need to be looked at… flags are not one of those.

Dand.8231:

kiwituatara.6053:

I don’t spvp so I dont have a say in that. But I run banners in WvW and they are fine. The only thing that needs buffing is the #2 skill on banners.

In regards to the #2 skills, Disc and Tactics banners seem fine. Defense and Strength banner are silly though; they should probably be updated to function like the other 3 banners, with #2 being a buff thats based on the banner type.

Strength could be 2 Might for 10s. Defense could be Protection for 4s, or maybe vigor 6s instead.

But I’m surprised you find them to be fine. I found that I spend more time managing my banner than I do actually fighting, and it only gets worse with multiple banners equipped, basically a buff-bot who ran around spamming 2-3, and looking for a combo field to 5.

Oops. Sorry. I meant #2 of Strength, Defense, and Tactics banner could use a buff, Discipline is fine. LOL, thats exactly my play style – managing multiple banners, I guess the playstyle isnt for everyone. Banners would probably need a buff to branch out into other playstyles, but personally, I’m fine with them except the mentioned #2 skills.

Personally, I run full clerics. I know people say that healing power doesn’t scale well and warriors suck at healing, but I’ve already gone balls deep into cleric ascended gears and its too late to turn back now. Plus, I enjoy watching regen ticks on my screen
(http://youtu.be/rqyrd-yZeZ8?t=5s) recorded this a while back. Works in WvW too.

Ultrajoe.8674:

And hey, who doesn’t want banner-javelins, am I right?

Your ideas are pretty fantastic, but I think a simpler band-aid fix might be to just make Inspiring Banners increase effective radius by 100% (1200 radius) instead of just 50%. Or maybe 75% (1050 radius.)

Either way, the idea is to make banners a little less of a pain in the kitten to micromanage without making them too good. I already think they’re pretty good, but it is a pain to micro them around in the middle of a fight. But then again, I pretty much do play as a buff-bot in WvW, just hanging out in the back with my warhorn and longbow. Then again, PvP in general in this game feels like a clusterkitten of AOE spamming, so maybe it’s just me :p

I’m with Ultrajoe on banner-javelins.

Youtube “Boostedlaser” look for the healing ( flag) vids. They seem amazing to me.
I see 10-50 at once getting 388-418 ticks

Dand.8231:

Conceptually, the fix is simple (codewise, dunno)

Banners 7-9 are a TOGGLE ability, like Engineer kits.

• When toggled OFF, it stays on the warriors back, and provides it’s AOE bonuses.
• When toggled ON, it replaces the 1-5 skills
• Only the most recently toggled banner provides bonuses from the warriors back. To benefit from multiple banners, they will have to be dropped/slammed
• If ~ or 5 is pressed, the banner is dropped or slammed normally, and has a 90 second lifespan. It can be picked up as usual.
• When a banner is dropped, the banner utility button is replaced with “Recall banner” which will teleport the banner to the warriors location. CT 1/2, CD kitten .

Battle Standard would need to remain unchanged for now.

The result of these changes makes banners more mobile, but without any real critical loss of functionality. The only thing lost is the ability to ground-target summon a banner for a blast finisher. But you could simply toggle-5, which provides a blast finisher anyway.

People been asking for something like this for a long time, like 10-11 months ago? Though I think it was making the warriors to be able to slot it on our back, resulting one utility(the one with the banner) to be closed while giving us the ability to use all of our skills(no 1-5 from banners) and if it is dropped down, it’ll just be a normal banner. Anet still ignores it sadly.

Buzzcrave.6197:

People been asking for this for a long time, like 10-11 months ago? Anet still haven’t change it sadly.

Tell me about it.

CD kitten

Also… CD kitten??? How did ANets filter managed to mistake two numbers for profanity?! O.o

PizzaSHARK.2741:

Either way, the idea is to make banners a little less of a pain in the kitten to micromanage without making them too good.

All you need for that is the ability to pick them up without stopping. Be that instant or on the move, that one change makes banners far easier to move for warriors or their friends alike. People without AoE swiftness will pick them up when moving as a group, people without a blast finisher will happily tote them to a stacking point, in general they become appealing beyond their basic buff function.

As mentioned in my earlier post, however, if they become an instant pickup (as would be preferred), they then become too strong as a blast finisher, which is why I suggest that functionality is removed from #5 and placed on the burst skill, where it is limited naturally by adrenaline production and cooldown.

Ultrajoe.8674:

PizzaSHARK.2741:

Either way, the idea is to make banners a little less of a pain in the kitten to micromanage without making them too good.

All you need for that is the ability to pick them up without stopping. Be that instant or on the move, that one change makes banners far easier to move for warriors or their friends alike. People without AoE swiftness will pick them up when moving as a group, people without a blast finisher will happily tote them to a stacking point, in general they become appealing beyond their basic buff function.

As mentioned in my earlier post, however, if they become an instant pickup (as would be preferred), they then become too strong as a blast finisher, which is why I suggest that functionality is removed from #5 and placed on the burst skill, where it is limited naturally by adrenaline production and cooldown.

A little late but that sounds like a good change. It’s just the people that want them to become passive buffs, and extremely strong ones considering they would be passive for one utility slot. That can’t happen, that would make banners way too strong.

Right now my banner grants aoe regen, a bonus to two stats that I choose. Imagine how strong that would be for a passive utility slot. How could anyone pass that up?

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

A little late but that sounds like a good change. It’s just the people that want them to become passive buffs, and extremely strong ones considering they would be passive for one utility slot. That can’t happen, that would make banners way too strong.

Right now my banner grants aoe regen, a bonus to two stats that I choose. Imagine how strong that would be for a passive utility slot. How could anyone pass that up?

The regen isn’t that great unless you stack a lot of Compassion, which inevitably comes at the cost of other stats (typically Vitality.) I’d rather have the 20% faster Longbow skills than a piddly little 200 HP/sec regen effect, especially considering how good Poison is at dealing with regeneration.

PizzaSHARK.2741:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

A little late but that sounds like a good change. It’s just the people that want them to become passive buffs, and extremely strong ones considering they would be passive for one utility slot. That can’t happen, that would make banners way too strong.

Right now my banner grants aoe regen, a bonus to two stats that I choose. Imagine how strong that would be for a passive utility slot. How could anyone pass that up?

The regen isn’t that great unless you stack a lot of Compassion, which inevitably comes at the cost of other stats (typically Vitality.) I’d rather have the 20% faster Longbow skills than a piddly little 200 HP/sec regen effect, especially considering how good Poison is at dealing with regeneration.

It works out great on condi bunkers. Dire (condi damage/toughness/vitality) armor/weapons(agony/doom/extra for stacking condi damage), apothecary accessories, runes of undead 10/30/30 or 20/20/30. At least that’s what I use right now. I position myself in a choke point, drop a banner, use my other two utilities for whatever I need (usually stability).

Anyway it’s more a niche build, but considering I’m getting 400 from healing signet plus adrenal health, then yep that extra 200 is pretty huge. I’m sacrificing direct damage sure, but between poison/burning/bleeding/cripple it’s not that big of a sacrifice. I’m not going to claim it’s the “best”, that would be hammer builds, but it’s fun and I can win 2v1s pretty easily.

edit.
With my current build I regen roughly 744 health per second, 3081 armor, 25k health, 1584 condi damage. I could switch it to a 10/30/30 but I don’t really feel the extra tankiness would help. Anyone that does currently run something like this please feel free to give me some input.

Oh and the above isn’t including whatever bonuses I get from the banner.

I always like the idea of banners, but they really have no place in anywhere but PvE and in some builds tPvP. However I recently incorporated Banner of Strength in my tanky condi S/S LB WvW roaming build and I love it. Yes it can get clunky, yes the radius is pretty small even traited, and yes sometimes people jack my banner but for my build it works great.

I needed more mobility outside of sword #2 as for a roamer mobility is king, so it was either a banner or Bulls Rush. As a condi Warrior Bulls Rush is useless and on a 45 sec cooldown so I find the banners #3 and #4 skills more useful as well as providing stats instead of just sitting on my bar being useless as Bulls Rush would be.