Guild Wars 2

If a warrior is burning, poisoned, or has 5-10 bleed stacks healing signet is completely negated.

Cause Warriors have the worst condi cleanse, and other classes aren’t affected by condis :0

tetrodoxin.2134:

Cause Warriors have the worst condi cleanse, and other classes aren’t affected by condis :0

Haha, I love how you state the sarcasm so obviously <3.

There is no healing burst from this healing skill whatsoever. That makes it vital to dodge any burst or long poison durations. You are forced to avoid almost everything even some auto attack chains.
Add that to a warrior’s inability deal damage while they kite to stay alive, unlike some other classes in pvp who are able to deal good damage during kiting.
The amount of skilful play that this requires is a lot higher than people give it credit. And it is only when someone masters it that they can make it seem like they lose hardly any hp in pvp.

The major imbalance people always talk about only happens when you add the passive healing to everything a shoutbow and only a shoutbow already has. They are able to kite on point with the longbow, they are able to burst heal or remove conditions quite well. That however is a entirely different issue in itself during this meta.

Nerfs hitting all of the warrior builds across the board wouldn’t be a good solution however. There have been too many instances already where nerfs across the board turned out to be way too much.

Don’t forget that these changes have only been mentioned but remain yet to be fully confirmed with exact and final numbers. We’ll see.

Henry.5713:

There is no healing burst from this healing skill whatsoever. That makes it vital to dodge any burst or long poison durations. You are forced to avoid almost everything even some auto attack chains.
Add that to a warrior’s inability deal damage while they kite to stay alive, unlike some other classes in pvp who are able to deal good damage during kiting.
The amount of skilful play that this requires is a lot higher than people give it credit. And it is only when someone masters it that they can make it seem like they lose hardly any hp in pvp.

The major imbalance people always talk about only happens when you add the passive healing to everything a shoutbow and only a shoutbow already has. They are able to kite on point with the longbow, they are able to burst heal or remove conditions quite well. That however is a entirely different issue in itself during this meta.

Nerfs hitting all of the warrior builds across the board wouldn’t be a good solution however. There have been too many instances already where nerfs across the board turned out to be way too much.

Don’t forget that these changes have only been mentioned but remain yet to be fully confirmed with exact and final numbers. We’ll see.

LOL… You look at the wrong way.
It is every classes’ responsibility to dodge all crucial skills and conditions, not just Warrior. Warriors are “forgiven” for taking damage and make mistake due to this passive healing, while other classes have lower sustain than Warrior, so they have to time dodge much more precisely and make less mistake. Like I posted earlier, Warrior is the only class that are rewarded for bad game-play of being hit. (Cleansing Ire and LB F1 ftw)

You really have to start playing something other than a shoutbow War to see what’s called “low margin of error”.

Toxsa.2701:

Hyo Jin.5630:

As a player of GW2 from the beggining of its launch I can say for sure that the warrior class had been through a lot of trouble before this state.

From a Warrior point of view, Healing Signet is what makes you stay alive in a melee fight. Don’t mention “it’s about your skills and your ability to avoid burst by dodging and using blocks etc” your argument is irrelevant. I can mitigate all direct damages without even paying attention to the fight (but Warriors are supposed to be more tanky than other classes right? even though they cut off the Holy Trinity basics).

• From a Thief point of view : The way I kill warriors (build tank or zerk) with my thief is full zerk D/P + stack blind = easy victory. But if I make a mistake they can easily burst me down in litteraly few seconds (in zerk build), while they can mitigate all my direct damages, so it’s a lot more about timing et right time to burst while they’re being blinded.

• From an Engineer point of view : Kite until the warrior does mistakes to punish him badly (with full conditions or burst from zerk / cele stuff). The trick is to stack poison on them ; luckily engineers have access to a lot of skills to apply pressure on opponents with CC.

NB : Heal Turret (low CD + dispell conditions + burst heal + regen) from Engineers is far more OP than Healing Signet for Warriors, just saying

The problem is not the healing comparison, but the passive nature of Warrior’s healing. For example, healing turret heal for about 5k + regen a few secs, so around 6k on a celestial build with a 15 CD. Healing Signet heals around 5900 within 15 seconds. But the problem is not about healing amount, but about when you trigger the effect. For healing turret, if you activate it before you lose up to at least 5k hp, you waste the healing potential of healing turret, meaning you achieve less than 6k heal withing 15 seconds.

Then the solution is not to NERF the passive and buff the Active, but to decouple its effects.

Change its name, call it “Berkeserker signet”, keep its passive and change the active to give you high burst damage over a short spam, like condi inmunity, remove stun etc and flat % extra damge. There you would have a significant choice, sustain vs burst down.

And not Sustain vs More Sustain.

In fact it is only the signets that dont have coupled effects (meaning to effects that do the same thing either stronger vs over time) that are real choices, otherwise the coin will always land on one side either the passive is more important or the active is more important.

Signet of Renewal
Passive: Cures a condition every ten seconds.
Active: Your pet pulls all conditions from nearby allies to itself.
Passive is always better, unless overwhelmed with conditions flooded with conditions. No choice.

Signet of Stone
Passive: Improves toughness for you and your pet.
Active: You and your pet takes no damage from attacks.You and your pet are still susceptible to conditions and control effects.
180 toughness is irrelevant you always use it to survive burst.

Assassin’s Signet
Passive: Grants increased power.
Active: Deal 15% more damage on your next five attacks.
Passive is always better, unless going for the final burst, Again no choice you should always try to maximize your damage on burst down.

Signet of Malice
Passive: Heals when you attack.
Active: Gain health.
Passive healing is always better unless trying a last ditch effort to survive the burst.

Signet of Restoration
Passive: Grants health every time you cast a spell.
Active: Heal yourself.
Passive skill spam healing is better than small burst unless again trying last effort to survive burst, no choice.

I could go on and on, on every signet that has coupled effects, when both do the same thing, it is always going to be the case that one is better except on a particular situation when you have no choice but to trigger the other.

The better designed signets are the ones that do offer a choice depending the situation and have its effects decoupled.

For instance:
Bane Signet
Passive: Improved Power
Active: Knock down and damage your foe.
More damage vs Interrupt/snare. This are 2 different things and there is a real choice to make, want more damage or want to know down say a fleeing enemy, or an enemy going for a revive or stomp?.

Dolyak Signet
Passive: Reduces incoming damage.
Active: Gain stability.
Want to take less damage or secure a stomp/burst.

This are real choices depending on the situation, which is different than one being default optimal save in a particular situation where you have not choice but to trigger the other.

tetrodoxin.2134:

Cause Warriors have the worst condi cleanse, and other classes aren’t affected by condis :0

Still less condi removal than gaurdians or ele and I don’t hear 1/3 the complaints against them

The focus on condition removal is kind of odd especially when the development history is looked at originally they mentioned warrior being vulnerable to condition being part of the design, but after conditions became more and more of the playstyle of pvp (during the first balance changes the shifted elementalist a turn) they listened to the complaints and the changed berserkers stance and cleansing ire became part of the game.

While the reduction may sting now could it make room for better or at least more active play? Or is this a case of wanting a heal that only poison can effect once it is on the bar? Should they I turn start working on additional passive heals across all professions?

Valik Shin.9027:

tetrodoxin.2134:

Cause Warriors have the worst condi cleanse, and other classes aren’t affected by condis :0

Still less condi removal than gaurdians or ele and I don’t hear 1/3 the complaints against them

If you do a straight comparison, shoutbow has way more condition removal than mediation Guardian.

Mediation Guardian has 1 cleanse at 20 CD, 1 full cleanse at 48 cd, f2 cleanse x 2 (include renewed focus) on a 45 cd.

Shoutbow has 2 cleanse at 20 CD, 1 cleanse at 48 cd, warhorn 4 and 5 cleanse, F1 cleanse 3 conditions every 8~10 seconds.

Alright. I main warrior and I have to say that healing sig. needs to be changed. The passive IS too strong. Please read what the changes are before you freak out. Immunity to conditions (I’ve played rev. on the closed beta) is as good as you’d hope. Give it 4-10 seconds of resistance and make the burst worthwhile. It’ll still be the best heal in the game, promise. Don’t forget that conditions are getting a fairly large buff.

Also warriors right off the bat were DPS powerhouses. Hammer and mace were not viable but Bulls → Frenzy → Hundred Blades could make any class cry. Saying they were pathetic is forgetting a glorious week or so of popping everyone who didn’t dodge or have stability up already.

If you do a straight comparison, shoutbow has way more condition removal than mediation Guardian.

Mediation Guardian has 1 cleanse at 20 CD, 1 full cleanse at 48 cd, f2 cleanse x 2 (include renewed focus) on a 45 cd.

Shoutbow has 2 cleanse at 20 CD, 1 cleanse at 48 cd, warhorn 4 and 5 cleanse, F1 cleanse 3 conditions every 8~10 seconds.

Let me laugh a little bit. You want to talk about condition removal ?

Necromancers are the best at it – Condi transfer + Heal absorb condis + F1 condi mitigate
Engineer – Major trait -33% condi duration when below low health + heal turret remove 2 condi + elixir gun + elixir ..
Guardians – (no need to ask questions all guardians now are playing meditation builds) so full spam your utility skill to remove all conditions + invu on elite skill

Wanna keep up ? Wanna talk about Elementalists removing all conditions in few seconds by switching to water with purify trait ? Come on ….

All classes have access to conditions removal. No need to discuss about it.

Supposed problem is the passive of Healing Signet which heals “too much”. So what about Rangers’ heal ? It’s more than mitigating damages.

/!\ Don’t forget ONE VERY IMPORTANT thing : Warriors are frontliners, melee class (no need to talk about trolls trickshot). So mechanics of the game supposes that heavy armors class are more tanky than others (then, what about tank necro ? tank elem ?) There’s a major problem in this game because you absolutely CAN NOT decide both to remove the holy trinity basics of MMO (SUPPORT – DAMAGE DEALER – TANK) and to make every single class BALANCED in PvP. It’s purely impossible, there will always be some advantages / disadvantages ..

Hyo Jin.5630:

If you do a straight comparison, shoutbow has way more condition removal than mediation Guardian.

Mediation Guardian has 1 cleanse at 20 CD, 1 full cleanse at 48 cd, f2 cleanse x 2 (include renewed focus) on a 45 cd.

Shoutbow has 2 cleanse at 20 CD, 1 cleanse at 48 cd, warhorn 4 and 5 cleanse, F1 cleanse 3 conditions every 8~10 seconds.

Let me laugh a little bit. You want to talk about condition removal ?

Necromancers are the best at it – Condi transfer + Heal absorb condis + F1 condi mitigate
Engineer – Major trait -33% condi duration when below low health + heal turret remove 2 condi + elixir gun + elixir ..
Guardians – (no need to ask questions all guardians now are playing meditation builds) so full spam your utility skill to remove all conditions + invu on elite skill

Wanna keep up ? Wanna talk about Elementalists removing all conditions in few seconds by switching to water with purify trait ? Come on ….

All classes have access to conditions removal. No need to discuss about it.

Supposed problem is the passive of Healing Signet which heals “too much”. So what about Rangers’ heal ? It’s more than mitigating damages.

/!\ Don’t forget ONE VERY IMPORTANT thing : Warriors are frontliners, melee class (no need to talk about trolls trickshot). So mechanics of the game supposes that heavy armors class are more tanky than others (then, what about tank necro ? tank elem ?) There’s a major problem in this game because you absolutely CAN NOT decide both to remove the holy trinity basics of MMO (SUPPORT – DAMAGE DEALER – TANK) and to make every single class BALANCED in PvP. It’s purely impossible, there will always be some advantages / disadvantages ..

Haha, whatever you say. Top class is so full of themselves that they can’t see in other classes’ perspective, doesn’t even know they have the 2nd best cleanse as a “real build” in the game in PVP. I’m talking about “actual build” at their disposal. Ofc other classes can bring all cleanses, but then they’d be useless because of it. Shoutbow keeps all the cleanse while being useful, that is all.

I’m actually laughing quite abit of how little you know of other classes. Also I’m responding to a guy comparing Guardian and Warrior, donnu why you drag Necro in lol. One last thing, Necro is the bottom class in PVP, so you really don’t have to compare necro to you superior warrior.

why does it feel like this is the only class where the people aren’t happy with the next expansion lol. i feel bad for warrior mains

Toxsa.2701:

Henry.5713:

LOL… You look at the wrong way.
It is every classes’ responsibility to dodge all crucial skills and conditions, not just Warrior. Warriors are “forgiven” for taking damage and make mistake due to this passive healing, while other classes have lower sustain than Warrior, so they have to time dodge much more precisely and make less mistake. Like I posted earlier, Warrior is the only class that are rewarded for bad game-play of being hit. (Cleansing Ire and LB F1 ftw)

You really have to start playing something other than a shoutbow War to see what’s called “low margin of error”.

It seems people have to justify any argument against warrior nerfs by mentioning that there are other warrior builds than shoutbow. Those people might even have started to play other builds or classes quite a long time ago before they were forced to turn to shoutbow during this meta. Even builds with that “low margin of error”.

I was talking about being able to heal up by 50% (or more) of your entire hp pool after a burst hit compared to the inability to do so with HS.
Warriors shine at sustain over long period of time. The active healing part of HS is quite abysmal (3275/20sec) however.
This is a big issue when they get focus bursted by any decend team in spvp. Healing for 7500 over 20secs passively does absolutely nothing for you when you are reduced to almost 0 hp instantly and are about to get downed.
Don’t forget the lack of additional powerful effects compared to other strong heals. May it be stealth, a dodge and removal, a blast, a water field or a block. Those will often help to take less damage after the burst or during the casting. Some of those effects synergize as perfectly with those classes as the passive healing does with a warrior.

Haha, whatever you say. Top class is so full of themselves that they can’t see in other classes’ perspective, doesn’t even know they have the 2nd best cleanse as a “real build” in the game in PVP. I’m talking about “actual build” at their disposal. Ofc other classes can bring all cleanses, but then they’d be useless because of it. Shoutbow keeps all the cleanse while being useful, that is all.

I’m actually laughing quite abit of how little you know of other classes. Also I’m responding to a guy comparing Guardian and Warrior, donnu why you drag Necro in lol. One last thing, Necro is the bottom class in PVP, so you really don’t have to compare necro to you superior warrior.

Sorry kid, I’m playing Thief as my main class, not warrior. So your argument is invalid. I’m absolutely not the kind of person defending my main class, I absolutely don’t give a ****** about those kiddish things.

Just saying : This post is about Healing Signet on Warriors. You all bring every class in this subject to compare what needs to be compared. So, according to this point of view, I bring Necromancers also.

The problem isn’t about passive healing on the Warriors’ Healing Signet, it’s about the whole mechanic. You can’t have a balanced game (especially in PvP) considering every class have access to the Holy Trinity’s specificity (Deal Damage, Support & Tank). It’s just not possible.

But if you just take logic into account : Warrios = Frontliners = Need to be more tanky (healing signet is just an option taken into account).

Shieldbash.5304:

Pecar.1236:

nicknamenick.2437:

Pecar.1236:

how you can compare passive vs active healing so in pvp i got 394 every 1s and 456 every 3s so its 5308 healing every 10s what healing give you better healing vs passive and cd compare?? so other healing skills heal more in 10s but another 15-30s you must w8 in 30s you got 11820 from signet and potentional 4560 from trait healing and dont say warrior is weak about condition builds when got best cleanse in game Cleansing Ire with this you can clean 3 condition ( if have sigil for clean) 4 condition every 7-10s

Yeah lets forget that other classes dont have regen or protection or simple dmg reduction traits or healing on weapon skills or whatever they have.. Let just compare healing signet + trait and call it OP becausr other classes dont have it.. (ranger regen ia more if you count like that). Anyway people complaining about HS just are blind to see the total package of classes.

Remove the amount of healing on HS and no compensation on other skills or whatever means dead to warriors.

( ow and saying 450h per 3 seconds from adrenaling health is really not true.. Its 400 but only 400 on full adrenaline.. Well good warriors use there adrenaline also and you need to rebuild it.. So its more +-200h per 3 seconds)

so 450 is not true????? nicknamenick.2437 lol i think you never play warrior before
when i dont have more that 1-2 condition i dont use adrenaline skill

You don’t nerf signet, you nerf ShoutBoW!!!!!

ShoutBow will be getting a shout heal. Do with Healing Signet whatever you want. It’s old school.

More adrenaline, more denial.

King Noob IV.3560:

why does it feel like this is the only class where the people aren’t happy with the next expansion lol. i feel bad for warrior mains

Trait adjustments is supposed to be launched well before the actual expansion. Warriors can’t complain about expansion materials just yet since the Elite Specialization has not been released.

King Noob IV.3560:

why does it feel like this is the only class where the people aren’t happy with the next expansion lol. i feel bad for warrior mains

I’m pretty happy with what I’ve seen coming down the pipe for warriors, tbh. And the people whining about healing signet make me laugh too.

Anet’s supposedly shifting the value of HS closer to the line between whether active or passive should be used, whereas right now there’s no contest. Yet people are already complaining without knowing what the end result will be.

Plus, they’re improving the viability of the alternative heals, which is great. I’m already looking forward to running mending on a bruiser build, and healing shout on a shout build is just one of the things that will make shout builds more powerful than they are now.

Choppy.4183:

King Noob IV.3560:

why does it feel like this is the only class where the people aren’t happy with the next expansion lol. i feel bad for warrior mains

I’m pretty happy with what I’ve seen coming down the pipe for warriors, tbh. And the people whining about healing signet make me laugh too.

Anet’s supposedly shifting the value of HS closer to the line between whether active or passive should be used, whereas right now there’s no contest. Yet people are already complaining without knowing what the end result will be.

Plus, they’re improving the viability of the alternative heals, which is great. I’m already looking forward to running mending on a bruiser build, and healing shout on a shout build is just one of the things that will make shout builds more powerful than they are now.

This is stupid, regardless of what numbers they put on it, there will always be an optimum side to it.

Apolo, if you’re still around here’s first result showing Warriors before HS buff, as you’ve been requesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zMf9eJ712E

Things of note before comparing:
He is weapon switching midmatch. This is diabled now.
Most people aren’t dodging, using their protection abilities, or using meta build. These are the days of Hotjoin Heroes.
Axe hit harder back then.
Greatsword hit harder back then.
Bullrush -> frenzy -> 100 blades worked well still. Swiftness was still 100%.
These are the fabled 8v8 matches.
This is back in the days of power builds.
No cleansing Ire. (edit: This is before Daecollo started suggesting cleansing ire. It was the one suggestion of his that wasn’t B.S. and pretty much made it into game.)
Look at all that retreating he has to do.
He appears to be 6/6/2/0/0 in today’s terms.

As of today, this guy would be killed instantly. PvPers have gotten better and this dude’s only real trick is weapon swapping in match to get more utility. If he didn’t run, he’d be a very easy kill as evident that he barely wins some actual chases.

Apolo.5942:

This is stupid, regardless of what numbers they put on it, there will always be an optimum side to it.

Yeah, but bringing it “closer to the line” means making the optimum situationally dependent.

There’s pretty much no situation that would make the active on HS situationally optimal now, whereas that’s not the case with the other signets.

Choppy.4183:

Apolo.5942:

This is stupid, regardless of what numbers they put on it, there will always be an optimum side to it.

Yeah, but bringing it “closer to the line” means making the optimum situationally dependent.

There’s pretty much no situation that would make the active on HS situationally optimal now, whereas that’s not the case with the other signets.

No it does not. If you care to read my longer previous post you would realize that there is no signet in the game, that has both abilities that work towards the same goal and that the to choice of which one to use is dictated by strategy rather than circumstance. HS is not going to be exception and it will nerf the class as a whole.

In fact what you want is exactly the opposite, is the choice to be situationaly independent, and not dictated by it. This signet as it is, is situationally dependant, being the standard situation better to use the passive and crisis situation being better to use the active.

Apolo.5942:

No it does not. If you care to read my longer previous post you would realize that there is no signet in the game, that has both abilities that work towards the same goal and that the to choice of which one to use is dictated by strategy rather than circumstance. HS is not going to be exception and it will nerf the class as a whole.

In fact what you want is exactly the opposite, is the choice to be situationaly independent, and not dictated by it. This signet as it is, is situationally dependant, being the standard situation better to use the passive and crisis situation being better to use the active.

If I’m using Signet of Stamina, then I’m using the passive unless I get condi bombed.

If I’m using Dolyaks Signet, in using the passive unless I need stability.

If I’m using Signet of Rage, I’m using the active in combat unless facing a necro who’ll convert the boons or faster adrenaline building is strategically more valuable (for the moment).

If I’m using Signet of Might, I’m using the passive unless I want to burst an enemy who could block it.

Under what circumstances would I use the HS signet, thereby dropping my heal output by a lot in order to get a small amount that most dps oriented opponents could undo in the time it takes to activate?

Decreasing the opportunity cost to heal when using the active and giving an additional benefit like condi immunity is absolutely consistent with the active counterplay Anet clearly wants to promote.

Choppy.4183:

Apolo.5942:

No it does not. If you care to read my longer previous post you would realize that there is no signet in the game, that has both abilities that work towards the same goal and that the to choice of which one to use is dictated by strategy rather than circumstance. HS is not going to be exception and it will nerf the class as a whole.

In fact what you want is exactly the opposite, is the choice to be situationaly independent, and not dictated by it. This signet as it is, is situationally dependant, being the standard situation better to use the passive and crisis situation being better to use the active.

Under what circumstances would I use the HS signet, thereby dropping my heal output by a lot in order to get a small amount that most dps oriented opponents could undo in the time it takes to activate?

Decreasing the opportunity cost to heal when using the active and giving an additional benefit like condi immunity is absolutely consistent with the active counterplay Anet clearly wants to promote.

When like i wrote above, when you are low on resources and need to survive a bursts, thats the only situation when you use the active.

I know what arena net is trying to do, but they are going about it the wrong way and ignoring their own previous reality where warrior sucked with out it.

Read my original post, signets that have 2 effects that work towards the same end, compete against it self, thus there will always be one more optimal and one dictated by a particular circumstance on which the other effect becomes irrelevant.

2 of the signets you mentioned are not designed this way (thou i would agree the one of the effects of those is by it self pretty underwhelming thus borderline irrelevant). This kind of signets (the ones that have effects that work towards different ends) come down to Judgment calls, to which plays you WANT to do. The bad signets come down to what play you HAVE to do in order to be optimal.

Apolo.5942:

When like i wrote above, when you are low on resources and need to survive a bursts, thats the only situation when you use the active.

Short of the rare scenario of having downed someone but your health is too low to get the stomp off and they’ll probably rally off of someone else if you don’t take them out quickly, when would it ever be smart to use the active?

As soon as I see a warrior activating HS, they’re going to get bursted (and probably interrupted) for way more than what they’ll get from the activation. If the fight carries on for more than 10s, then they’re already losing.

And the numbers absolutely do matter. If the HS passive is cut by 100 health/sec, that’s a big hit. If 30 health/s, not so much. Plus, if the active actually becomes useful (like in a crisis situation), then some amount of counterplay has been injected.

As it is, Heal Signet is only used for its passive. ArenaNet doesn’t want this so they are reducing the strength of the passive while increasing the strength of the active.

It’s very simple, straightforward, and logical.

How it will play out with the specialization changes is yet to be seen … as are several other things in the game.

Assuming that the changes, which the numbers for are currently unknown, will make Warriors bad … is dumb. You don’t have nearly enough information to be even remotely informed on whether that will/won’t be the case.

Actually i would rather voice my concerns now and may be shed some light on it, than wait the unholy amount of time it takes Arena net to fix balance issues.

Voicing concerns and saying something will break warriors are two separate things.

Claiming ArenaNet is going about something the wrong way (quite similar to saying it will break warriors) is also quite different than voicing concerns.

The biggest difference … stating things as facts despite a lack of information.

The change on the HS seems absolutely brilliant to me. It makes it so we actually press our heal and it also becomes a source of Resistance on a short cooldown, meaning Cleansing Ire and Berserker Stance become less important. It’s just a question of numbers of balancing.