Being a warrior - work as intended ?

Being a warrior - work as intended ?

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Posted by: Trimsic.4392

Trimsic.4392

The video below shows a combat where the warrior is killed in 2 seconds while charging an enemy raid, in a raid vs. raid combat.

(sorry, the sound is in French).

Hopefully, all the combats are not that brutal. But in my opinion, this video shows some issues that should be analyzed by some Anet developers.

Trimsic
Guild Leader Millenium Old School
http://mos.millenium.org

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Posted by: Ajaxx.3157

Ajaxx.3157

He walked into a mass amount of Aoe.

Whats the issue?

Also, the warrior only has 20k hp ( with food buffs ) Wrong gear for frontline pushing?

Ajaxx – Warrior – [JuG] – Desolation [eu]

http://www.twitch.tv/irajaxx

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Posted by: Majax.3549

Majax.3549

He is under Ignore pain and die because so many tick of retaliation ignore immun

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Posted by: Dand.8231

Dand.8231

He sorta walked into that death. Nothing survives that.

<insert daecollo comment about how a guardian could have solo’d that zerg while simultaneously juggling chainsaws and curing cancer>

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Posted by: Ajaxx.3157

Ajaxx.3157

insert daecollo comment about how a guardian could have solo’d that zerg while simultaneously juggling chainsaws and curing cancer>

You get 100 internets

Ajaxx – Warrior – [JuG] – Desolation [eu]

http://www.twitch.tv/irajaxx

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Posted by: Trimsic.4392

Trimsic.4392

If the source of the damage is retaliation, I think that something should be done so as to make sure that one person cannot take more than one tick of retaliation per second and per foe, maxed to 5 foes. No ?

Trimsic
Guild Leader Millenium Old School
http://mos.millenium.org

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Posted by: Majax.3549

Majax.3549

But in my opinion, this video shows some issues that should be analyzed by some Anet developers

I think OP want to show the problem with retaliation passing trough immunity (at 12second warrior use ignore pain).
It’s not explicit that retaliation is considered like condition.

A lot of people suicide themselves when they cleave a lot of people with retaliation buff.

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Posted by: BlueprintLFE.2358

BlueprintLFE.2358

This is a really good post for a few reasons, the first is that it highlights exactly what kind of conditions warriors or any melee character is fighting in.

It shows perfectly how ridiculous retaliation is and further makes axe off hand and other skills completely useless.

3rd is just how strong Aoe is.

USMC 1st Battalion 10th Marines
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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

If the source of the damage is retaliation, I think that something should be done so as to make sure that one person cannot take more than one tick of retaliation per second and per foe, maxed to 5 foes. No ?

Isn’t that the case? You can only hit 5 foes at a time unless you throw out a fire arrow + another AoE attack.

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Posted by: Trimsic.4392

Trimsic.4392

If the source of the damage is retaliation, I think that something should be done so as to make sure that one person cannot take more than one tick of retaliation per second and per foe, maxed to 5 foes. No ?

Isn’t that the case? You can only hit 5 foes at a time unless you throw out a fire arrow + another AoE attack.

According to the video, it seems that it’s not the case. The warrior is taking much more than 5 retaliations per second.

Trimsic
Guild Leader Millenium Old School
http://mos.millenium.org

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

If the source of the damage is retaliation, I think that something should be done so as to make sure that one person cannot take more than one tick of retaliation per second and per foe, maxed to 5 foes. No ?

Isn’t that the case? You can only hit 5 foes at a time unless you throw out a fire arrow + another AoE attack.

According to the video, it seems that it’s not the case. The warrior is taking much more than 5 retaliations per second.

Well how many stacks did he take? Whirling axe hits 15 times, vs 5 people that’s 75 stacks.

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Posted by: dooger.2640

dooger.2640

I expect to die if I walk into a cluster F@#$@#$ like that.

What I dont expect is a medium armour class fighting me to be able to hit me much harder and be able to effectively be much tankier at same time.

Class balance is all relative, the devs do a few changes and say, “there we go”. you gotta have a big plan on tradeoffs and goals for damage/survivalibity/group support across class lines.

The worst part is ZERO communication to customers. These guys are right up there with swtor devs and mythic for lack of communication/plan.

(edited by dooger.2640)

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Posted by: Jahai.2514

Jahai.2514

If the source of the damage is retaliation, I think that something should be done so as to make sure that one person cannot take more than one tick of retaliation per second and per foe, maxed to 5 foes. No ?

Isn’t that the case? You can only hit 5 foes at a time unless you throw out a fire arrow + another AoE attack.

According to the video, it seems that it’s not the case. The warrior is taking much more than 5 retaliations per second.

Well how many stacks did he take? Whirling axe hits 15 times, vs 5 people that’s 75 stacks.

he isn’t using an axt, he uses a hammer.

It clearly is a bug at endure pain cause there a dmg-ticks as high as 3k-4k which simply isnt possibly with retaliation.

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Posted by: dukefx.9730

dukefx.9730

He’s using hammer / sword+axe and yes, he’s using whirling axe while EP is active.

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Posted by: Trimsic.4392

Trimsic.4392

If the source of the damage is retaliation, I think that something should be done so as to make sure that one person cannot take more than one tick of retaliation per second and per foe, maxed to 5 foes. No ?

Isn’t that the case? You can only hit 5 foes at a time unless you throw out a fire arrow + another AoE attack.

According to the video, it seems that it’s not the case. The warrior is taking much more than 5 retaliations per second.

Well how many stacks did he take? Whirling axe hits 15 times, vs 5 people that’s 75 stacks.

That’s the point. The warrior should not have taken 75 stacks of retaliation in 2 seconds, because it’s just overpowered then.

Trimsic
Guild Leader Millenium Old School
http://mos.millenium.org

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Posted by: Scoobaniec.9561

Scoobaniec.9561

I expect to die if I walk into a cluster F@#$@#$ like that.

What I dont expect is a medium armour class fighting me to be able to hit me much harder and be able to effectively be much tankier at same time.

Class balance is all relative, the devs do a few changes and say, “there we go”. you gotta have a big plan on tradeoffs and goals for damage/survivalibity/group support across class lines.

The worst part is ZERO communication to customers. These guys are right up there with swtor devs and mythic for lack of communication/plan.

Bc they don’t have any plans. They don’t know what happening in game. Cleansing ire as a trait rathen than a F2 proves that. They just throw some random stuff without any sense and thinking “let give it to us, and see how its worked”

A “burst” skill that u have to use in order to remove conditios.. /laugh

If anything burst skills should act as finishers.

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Posted by: Warlord.9074

Warlord.9074

He walked into a mass amount of Aoe.

Whats the issue?

Also, the warrior only has 20k hp ( with food buffs ) Wrong gear for frontline pushing?

no btw what is low about 20k HP compared to gurdians or any other profession 20k is quite high…

The problem is he is using off hand axe. OP dude no just stop don’t use off hand axe, the damage is worst than auto attack damage. you hit a enemy that was stacking retaliation and you got confusion on you at the end. Thats why you dont use axe. If you hadn’t of used whirling axe that wouldn’t of happened. So not only does it do really bad damage and only bads use it but it kills you for using it.

“Just press 2 to win all the dps was us cuz we’re a
warrior and we’re the best class” Eugene

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Posted by: Scoobaniec.9561

Scoobaniec.9561

He walked into a mass amount of Aoe.

Whats the issue?

Also, the warrior only has 20k hp ( with food buffs ) Wrong gear for frontline pushing?

no btw what is low about 20k HP compared to gurdians or any other profession 20k is quite high…

The problem is he is using off hand axe. OP dude no just stop don’t use off hand axe, the damage is worst than auto attack damage. you hit a enemy that was stacking retaliation and you got confusion on you at the end. Thats why you dont use axe. If you hadn’t of used whirling axe that wouldn’t of happened. So not only does it do really bad damage and only bads use it but it kills you for using it.

And they buffed that skill in pvp olny.. A moment of silence

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Posted by: MiLkZz.4789

MiLkZz.4789

First off all, the build that warrior using is really bad. He tries to fight like a tank, but is far from it. Second of all, axe ‘5’ is only fixed in pvp not wvw. The skill is still incredibly bad and is only good to tag people. Nothing else.

3rd, use your brain, who in his right mind uses an ablility that hits 75 times in a turtle. Everybody knows that turtles stack up Retal. And those 75 times hit for around 200-300/hit. That ain’t worth it. A turtle has to be attacked with high hitting weapons to counter the retal. Not fast hitting.

Retal is fine, I have never had problems with it and it is an essential damage source for many builds. And we have another word for retaliation, something that suggest what people are that go in like this. Retal counters bad players, that is all.

Warrior of [VcY], guild from Seafarer’s Rest
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Best golem driver EU

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Posted by: killahmayne.9518

killahmayne.9518

honestly, this is to be expected when you charge into a zerg with an offhand axe spinning around.

Mace/Greatsword Video (Sept Patch)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoAjKtD6MLY

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Posted by: Trimsic.4392

Trimsic.4392

honestly, this is to be expected when you charge into a zerg with an offhand axe spinning around.

No the problem comes from the fact that retaliation is out of control in WvW. No one should be hit by retaliation 20 times per second or so.

Trimsic
Guild Leader Millenium Old School
http://mos.millenium.org

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Posted by: XII.9401

XII.9401

He sorta walked into that death. Nothing survives that.

<insert daecollo comment about how a guardian could have solo’d that zerg while simultaneously juggling chainsaws and curing cancer>

A guardian would have survived better, yes. I run with guardians all the time and they take the aggro and survive longer than me and I have to run in and out. I survive better in PVT gear but that just gimps me and only allows me to CC.

Have you ever ran into 5-10 man groups with 2 guardians -who know how to face roll on the keyboard- per group? Yep..that is when you are reminded of how imbalanced the classes are.

Also, The boon duration is still not nerfed which places boon guardians at a much higher OP lvl than a lot of classes in WvW.

Daecello is right about the guardian regardless of how he conveys the message.

@OP:

I’m guessing you checked your combat log and that was all retaliation. Retaliation was not nerfed in non-EB borderlands till recently. I’m not sure if this video was recorded -posted on the 26th- prior to the retaliation nerf.

(edited by XII.9401)

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

If the source of the damage is retaliation, I think that something should be done so as to make sure that one person cannot take more than one tick of retaliation per second and per foe, maxed to 5 foes. No ?

Isn’t that the case? You can only hit 5 foes at a time unless you throw out a fire arrow + another AoE attack.

According to the video, it seems that it’s not the case. The warrior is taking much more than 5 retaliations per second.

Well how many stacks did he take? Whirling axe hits 15 times, vs 5 people that’s 75 stacks.

That’s the point. The warrior should not have taken 75 stacks of retaliation in 2 seconds, because it’s just overpowered then.

I find it’s foolhearty to use multi-hit attacks on a huddled mass of foes.

And by very very close examination of the video you can see….that Warrior didn’t even die, he just got downed and rallied.

So what’s the problem here? That you can’t mindlessly attack enemies?

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Posted by: XII.9401

XII.9401

honestly, this is to be expected when you charge into a zerg with an offhand axe spinning around.

No the problem comes from the fact that retaliation is out of control in WvW. No one should be hit by retaliation 20 times per second or so.

The boon duration was never nerfed in WvW as it was in spvp which is very very stupid. Now you see a lot of boon guardians with retal up a lot of the time.

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

A guardian would have survived better, yes. I run with guardians all the time and they take the aggro and survive longer than me and I have to run in and out. I survive better in PVT gear but that just gimps me and only allows me to CC.

If a guardian were to attack in the same circumstances with a similar attack Whirling Wrath (14 attacks vs 5 foes = 70 attacks) they’d take more damage than they could ever withstand (21000 damage).

Also, a warrior built with vitality could withstand 75 stacks of retaliation. With 28k HP, every stack of retaliation would have to hit for 370 or more and I could see alot that only hit in the 200s and not as many that hit for 400s.

That warrior was just glass and was likely expecting to be killed fast…he just got mad that his own attack killed him which is sort of the purpose of retaliation. If it didn’t kill foolish attackers, then it’s not doing its job.

(edited by Leo G.4501)

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Posted by: Zayle.7253

Zayle.7253

I thought he actually deserved to die there for what he did, but he lived and put a huge dent in the enemy team. To say something needs to be changed after the video clearly proves how effective he was just doesn’t seem very productive.

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Posted by: killahmayne.9518

killahmayne.9518

honestly, this is to be expected when you charge into a zerg with an offhand axe spinning around.

No the problem comes from the fact that retaliation is out of control in WvW. No one should be hit by retaliation 20 times per second or so.

Retaliation isn’t really a huge issue in WvW, at least for myself running a slightly less tankier build. The uptime Guardians get on it might be a little much but overall it really isn’t much of a problem.

It is only really a problem if you use the Axe 5 and rush into a zerg like that, but that is more of a flaw in the skill design more than anything, it only seems OP because whirling axe hits 15 times in 3 seconds. It is like saying confusion is OP because you decided to use 1000 skills in 5 seconds.

This is only one situation which is not an accurate representation of how retaliation usually is. Most of our skills do not hit that many times and if he used anything else I guarantee he wouldn’t of died as fast.

I could post a video frenzy ---> Bulls Rush ----> 100 blade a ranger from 100-0, would that be OP .... ??? Considering there are so many ways to avoid it?

Mace/Greatsword Video (Sept Patch)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoAjKtD6MLY

(edited by killahmayne.9518)

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Posted by: Trimsic.4392

Trimsic.4392

If the source of the damage is retaliation, I think that something should be done so as to make sure that one person cannot take more than one tick of retaliation per second and per foe, maxed to 5 foes. No ?

Isn’t that the case? You can only hit 5 foes at a time unless you throw out a fire arrow + another AoE attack.

According to the video, it seems that it’s not the case. The warrior is taking much more than 5 retaliations per second.

Well how many stacks did he take? Whirling axe hits 15 times, vs 5 people that’s 75 stacks.

That’s the point. The warrior should not have taken 75 stacks of retaliation in 2 seconds, because it’s just overpowered then.

I find it’s foolhearty to use multi-hit attacks on a huddled mass of foes.

And by very very close examination of the video you can see….that Warrior didn’t even die, he just got downed and rallied.

So what’s the problem here? That you can’t mindlessly attack enemies?

By mindlessly, do you mean being part of raid that attacks another raid, with necro, mesmer and guardian support to dispel the enemies and heal you ? Because this is exactly what happened during this combat.

For your information, the template of this warrior is 30 def, with knight armor, and has 3k1 armor. I’ve asked the warrior if he had a screenshot of the combat logs, and unfortunately he does not have any of them.

If I do understand you, it’s foolhardy for a warrior to use a multi-attack weapon. It’s foolhardy to use an offhand axe, a greatsword, or may be also a hammer. Oh just wait a minute, I now get what you mean: it’s foolhardy to be a warrior!

Trimsic
Guild Leader Millenium Old School
http://mos.millenium.org

(edited by Trimsic.4392)

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

Oh just wait a minute, I now get what you mean: it’s foolhardy to be a warrior!

Yup, now you get it.

fool·har·dy
/?fo?ol?härd?/
Adjective
Recklessly bold or rash.

Foolhardy isn’t necessarily bad. It is very much reckless and prone to punishment, but that’s how you make headway in battles like that.

So if you’re so intimate with the player in the video, does he feel he shouldn’t have been downed? Did he actually march into the enemy’s swords and not expect retaliation (lol pun)? If he didn’t then yeah, he’s foolish. If he remembered that Endure Pain only works on direct damage and knew he was likely going to die (but didn’t!) then I’ll redact my statement and give him credit; he was part of the lead assault and survived it!

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Posted by: Trimsic.4392

Trimsic.4392

He, as all our warriors, expects some retaliation of course. But who would expect to stack such an amount of retaliation ticks per second, when covered by his raid ?

What is the purpose of a warrior in WvW combat ? Shall the warrior be a defensive melee class in combat ? Or can the warrior have some room for an offensive role ?

This is a serious question at this moment when balancing a raid: if the warrior cannot have a decent offensive role in a raid, then the warrior is just useless, since a guardian will perform much better than a warrior in a defensive role. The DPS shall then be dealt by ranged classes, while the tanks break the enemy lines. In this scheme, the warrior has no utility, with the exception of being a banner carrier.

Retaliation is one of the many problems that prevents the warrior from playing a decent offensive role. And this video shows this problem.

Trimsic
Guild Leader Millenium Old School
http://mos.millenium.org

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

He, as all our warriors, expects some retaliation of course. But who would expect to stack such an amount of retaliation ticks per second, when covered by his raid ?

You should when you use mutli-hit skills. The video is a perfect example.

What is the purpose of a warrior in WvW combat ? Shall the warrior be a defensive melee class in combat ? Or can the warrior have some room for an offensive role ?

This is a serious question at this moment when balancing a raid: if the warrior cannot have a decent offensive role in a raid, then the warrior is just useless, since a guardian will perform much better than a warrior in a defensive role. The DPS shall then be dealt by ranged classes, while the tanks break the enemy lines. In this scheme, the warrior has no utility, with the exception of being a banner carrier.

Retaliation is one of the many problems that prevents the warrior from playing a decent offensive role. And this video shows this problem.

And who says Warrior can’t be offensive role in a WvW situation? That Warrior did and he still survived it.

Also, nothing says he needed to use Whirling Axe to be offensive then. He could have just used Earth Shaker or Hammer Shock or if he was doing mass AoE, a Longbow. Those weapons have far less drawbacks on their attacks.

For whatever reason, you’re taking that video as an example of Retaliation infringing on a Warrior’s role to be offensive.

I’m taking from that video, don’t use Flurry or Whirling Axe in big huddled buffed zergs. Just use a Hammer (awesome in zergs) or bow. You could even build glass and aim for a rifle build but the reflection will require you time your killshots.

And right there, reflection. It’s the same deal. Do you want reflection nerfed too (I actually do in PvE) because it can kill you and your teammates when you’re not careful? Or is the answer to have a melee weapon ready when people start popping reflects at the start?

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Posted by: Majax.3549

Majax.3549

Also, nothing says he needed to use Whirling Axe to be offensive then. He could have just used Earth Shaker or Hammer Shock or if he was doing mass AoE, a Longbow. Those weapons have far less drawbacks on their attacks.

In the video he wanted to use F1 Hammer but he take a knock back and F1 goes on full CD just when he want to use it…srsly it’s so bad designed.

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Posted by: Waage.2047

Waage.2047

Now the Video is actually about CD after getting interrupted when you are trying to fire of your burst. IT should not go on full CD.

Now for how a warrior survives in wvw. I am a Commander of a very Warrior and Guardian heavy guild that is a pure wvw guild. We have no big problem surviving at all and the only thing that brings us down a superior numbers.

The thing with multi hit weapons is that you should not use them as openers. That is where you use Earth Shaker or the Long bow Burst. Trying to break a front line of Warriors or Guards will only get you killed if you use multi hit.

Instead you should use stuns, disrupts, boon removers/converters and then crush them or better yet be a bit smart and go around them using Portals, veils and what not where after you hit there soft back line.

IF you get into there back line then Burst weapons can work wonders and you do not have to worry about retaliation or any thing else like that.

[RK] – Guild Leader and awesome Warrior – BG

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Posted by: MiLkZz.4789

MiLkZz.4789

He, as all our warriors, expects some retaliation of course. But who would expect to stack such an amount of retaliation ticks per second, when covered by his raid ?

What is the purpose of a warrior in WvW combat ? Shall the warrior be a defensive melee class in combat ? Or can the warrior have some room for an offensive role ?

This is a serious question at this moment when balancing a raid: if the warrior cannot have a decent offensive role in a raid, then the warrior is just useless, since a guardian will perform much better than a warrior in a defensive role. The DPS shall then be dealt by ranged classes, while the tanks break the enemy lines. In this scheme, the warrior has no utility, with the exception of being a banner carrier.

Retaliation is one of the many problems that prevents the warrior from playing a decent offensive role. And this video shows this problem.

You have no clue about what a warrior does in a raid do you? Well I could figure that out already by you build and weapon choice. You ran a selfish build and used the worst skill you could to open. Your build doens’t support your team AT ALL. You should have lost that fight right there for real bad play.

I’ll give you a hint, warriors are NOT the damage dealers in a raid. Now I am not goin to hand it on a piece of paper to you, the Viz hate is still strong in this one ^^.

Warrior of [VcY], guild from Seafarer’s Rest
First troll to receive 10/10
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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

Why isnt retal considered as direct dmg ? It’s no condition right.But all in all,you shouldnt have jumped in there whirl axing…