Guild Wars 2

Hi there!

I’m one of those warriors who needs to be able to switch to a ranged weapon in the middle of a fight. Hence my #2 slot is occupied by a longbow. I know that GS/Axe+mace will be the highest DPS build both now and post-patch but I don’t want to run it. Hence, I’m trying to run the best ‘pure’ melee set in my #1 slot.

So far, I have been running GS in the #1 slot, since I find it just ever so slightly better DPS-wise than Axe+x.

However, with the patch coming out, bringing things like a 10% attack speed boost for dual-weilders, double sigils for 2-handlers etc, I have a feeling this may change.

So, if my own numbers are correct, it looks like pure axe+x will be slightly higher DPS than pure GS post-patch, but I might be leaving something out. Is there anyone who can confirm/deny this? What pure weapon set will allow for the highest PvE DPS after the April 15th patch?

Thanks!

tedfoo.8109:

So far, I have been running GS in the #1 slot, since I find it just ever so slightly better DPS-wise than Axe+x.

Even now axe+mace is a better option than GS, since GS 1 does pathetic damage.
As for after the patch.. axe+mace might actually outdps the axe+mace/GS build.

Ozzrel.9825:

tedfoo.8109:

So far, I have been running GS in the #1 slot, since I find it just ever so slightly better DPS-wise than Axe+x.

Even now axe+mace is a better option than GS, since GS 1 does pathetic damage.
As for after the patch.. axe+mace might actually outdps the axe+mace/GS build.

GS may be better than axe if you lack might and are constantly getting axe chain interrupted (eg by a dodge)

Post-patch pure axe 30/30/0/10/0 will likely leave GS in the dust, though the evade on GS and self-buffing will still prove useful. 10 in Discipline instead of Tactics may not be a bad idea as well if you’re lacking might/really want that runspeed trait – Empowered will also be a lot less useful in less organised parties.

What about let’s say axe/xxx + rifle/longbow?

I’d go rather for longbow, since you have high dps output burst skill with axe – and it’s alot faster, than loading rifle.

having a range swap is completely unnecessary in almost every fight.

So what should I swap to, if needed?

Tarreth.8914:

So what should I swap to, if needed?

A GS.

I quite like the longbow, with 15 points in discipline for lower cooldown on swap I don’t consider it a ranged weapon really, I switch to it to lob the fire AoE combo field and then cycle through the other skills finishing on combustive shot, then switch back to my main weapons while the burn ticks.

Right now the highest DPS a warrior can do is pure Axe/Mace no GS. But that dont really matter. Post patch the best pure DPS build is going to be Axe/Mace with no switch 30/30/0/x/x.

This means 2 things that are good for you:

1) No fast hands – so weapon swapping not really advantageous in any regard
2) Switching to anything 2 handed will be a huge DPS loss as you will have both Dual Weilding, and the new attack speed trait. Switching to a GS would be… well stupid.

So no worries, just do you axe thing and keep your longbow.

Warrior will be boring now basically. Enjoy staying with axe and mace 100% of the time

ICEing.9237:

Warrior will be boring now basically. Enjoy staying with axe and mace 100% of the time

In some sense yah, but in other senses not as much.

Highest personal DPS will be 30/30/0/10/0 probably. However this is perhaps not the best overall build.

A 20/30/0/20/0 build gives you empower allies, and sacrifices about 10% DPS or a bit more to do that. However this brings some more interesting dynamics to the warrior as you dont need to keep Adrenaline up anymore so you can Eviscerate on cool down which is kinda fun and allows for some interesting dynamics.

There are also some other builds that could now become while not the best DPS, at least competitive that sound kinda fun to me, for example a 10/30/0/0/30 type eviscerate build or something like that.

I dont know, I think the current meta is kinda stale, im not saying 1.5 years into the new meta it wont also be stale but a little bit of change is good.

Honnestly, if you count on the new “Dual Wield agility” trait to boost pure axe builds, you’re gonna be disapointed… like a lot. It’s only 10% percent attack speed increase : chop takes 0,25 seconds to activate, double chop probably a bit more et triple chop takes 1,50 seconds.
A difference of ten percent will be pretty invisible to notice, even in DPS output.
I’ll never put 30 points in Arms for this useless junk and I admit I’m kind of surprised by the people who are convinced that this new trait is going to make us warrior stick to only one weapon set.

But then again maybe there’s some other new trait I haven’t heard about and which is good ?

FatRaKoon.1782:

Honnestly, if you count on the new “Dual Wield agility” trait to boost pure axe builds, you’re gonna be disapointed… like a lot. It’s only 10% percent attack speed increase : chop takes 0,25 seconds to activate, double chop probably a bit more et triple chop takes 1,50 seconds.
A difference of ten percent will be pretty invisible to notice, even in DPS output.
I’ll never put 30 points in Arms for this useless junk and I admit I’m kind of surprised by the people who are convinced that this new trait is going to make us warrior stick to only one weapon set.

But then again maybe there’s some other new trait I haven’t heard about and which is good ?

“only” 10% increase

FatRaKoon.1782:

Honestly, if you count on the new “Dual Wield agility” trait to boost pure axe builds, you’re gonna be disapointed… like a lot. It’s only 10% percent attack speed increase : chop takes 0,25 seconds to activate, double chop probably a bit more et triple chop takes 1,50 seconds.
A difference of ten percent will be pretty invisible to notice, even in DPS output.
I’ll never put 30 points in Arms for this useless junk and I admit I’m kind of surprised by the people who are convinced that this new trait is going to make us warrior stick to only one weapon set.

I agree, I don’t think it’s too useful and I don’t know why some people seem to want it SOOO badly.

But then again maybe there’s some other new trait I haven’t heard about and which is good ?

Exactly what I’m thinking. There’s a few new traits for every class so I’m willing to bet there’s better ones, ones that don’t involve axes. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a good trait for every popular melee weapon….or every warrior weapon.

FatRaKoon.1782:

Honnestly, if you count on the new “Dual Wield agility” trait to boost pure axe builds, you’re gonna be disapointed… like a lot. It’s only 10% percent attack speed increase : chop takes 0,25 seconds to activate, double chop probably a bit more et triple chop takes 1,50 seconds.
A difference of ten percent will be pretty invisible to notice, even in DPS output.
I’ll never put 30 points in Arms for this useless junk and I admit I’m kind of surprised by the people who are convinced that this new trait is going to make us warrior stick to only one weapon set.

But then again maybe there’s some other new trait I haven’t heard about and which is good ?

Do you know how to calculate DPS? I think you must not, because otherwise you would know how amazing a 10% DPS increase trait is. Unless you can show DPS calculations that demonstrate otherwise, my numbers 30/30/0/10/0 is about 10-14% better sustained DPS than 30/25/0/0/15. And the 20/30/0/20/0 EA build is about 13% better than then the current 30/10/0/20/10 EA build.

The difference between 11,000 DPS and 12,100 DPS is the difference between lower tier Ranger/Necro DPS and top tier Thief/Ele DPS. This is distinctly non-trivial amount for min/maxers.

Rotation – start shooting with longbow while running at range – you should have full adrenaline from the previous fight. When your party is close enough drop Combustive Shot then Arcing Arrow and Banner of Discipline into the Combustive Shot field for instant 6 AoE might to start the fight with, then swap to axe/mace, use 2,3,4 off cooldown for vuln and perm fury, making sure never to interrupt your autoattack chain. When fight completes, switch back to Longbow and repeat. Should be easy and yet extremely damaging.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vIAQNAT3ZjMdU3ZfH2ewJaAw8YogK68AqlAIVQMA-zwBBYfERzEEQUBDZOzsIaslhFRjVXDT5iIqOAACAf3mD9mD9mlCIihVA-e

Missing trait is the new XIII Dual Wield Agility.

Tree.3916:

FatRaKoon.1782:

Honnestly, if you count on the new “Dual Wield agility” trait to boost pure axe builds, you’re gonna be disapointed… like a lot. It’s only 10% percent attack speed increase : chop takes 0,25 seconds to activate, double chop probably a bit more et triple chop takes 1,50 seconds.
A difference of ten percent will be pretty invisible to notice, even in DPS output.
I’ll never put 30 points in Arms for this useless junk and I admit I’m kind of surprised by the people who are convinced that this new trait is going to make us warrior stick to only one weapon set.

But then again maybe there’s some other new trait I haven’t heard about and which is good ?

Do you know how to calculate DPS? I think you must not, because otherwise you would know how amazing a 10% DPS increase trait is. Unless you can show DPS calculations that demonstrate otherwise, my numbers 30/30/0/10/0 is about 10-14% better sustained DPS than 30/25/0/0/15. And the 20/30/0/20/0 EA build is about 13% better than then the current 30/10/0/20/10 EA build.

The difference between 11,000 DPS and 12,100 DPS is the difference between lower tier Ranger/Necro DPS and top tier Thief/Ele DPS. This is distinctly non-trivial amount for min/maxers.

well i dont want to disappoint u but i show just a few numbers:

• 30/25/0/0/15 build + lyssa runes, without might and stacking sigill
  - + 38% raw dmg throught traits => gs aa avg dmg per sec: 1662,81 against 2600 armor
  - + 33% raw dmg + 10% crit dmg throught traits => axe aa avg dmg per sec: 1576,86
  against 2600 armor
• 30/30/0/x/0
  – +10% for dual will never compensate the lost of 15 critdmg depending on critchance
  - empored is only 1% per boontype. i hope u can calculate how many boons u need and the needed uptime
• 20/30/0/20/0 against 30/10/0/20/10
  - depends on critchance
  - it looses 100 power, 18% dmg, 10% crit dmg
  - but it gets 20% dmg via attack and bleed, ca. 9% critchance

in my opinion its a bad trait. not because it doesnt add enough dmg, only cause u will need to spec with dual weapon deep into a traitline where only u hasnt much options for dualwielding weapons. i think best build for dual is still 30/x/x/x/30. gives nearly equal critchance but more crit-dmg and better utility.

Cool story, but it appears I was right, you don’t know how to calculate DPS.

The 30/25 build has the same crit damage as the 30/30 build thanks to axe mastery. The 30/30 build has a base damage modifier for 2.46 (assuming 3 boons). The 30/25 has 2.38. The 30/30 build has a base buffed crit chance with food of 95%. 30/25 88%. So the 30/25 build is equal to or weaker in every category.

Then we factor in dual wield agility into our dps rotations.

GS axe mace dps rotation = 15.3 coefficient every 11.2 seconds = 1.366 per second

Pure Axe Rotation = 16.7 coefficient every 10.6 = 1.575.

30/25 = 1.366
30/30 = 1.575

Modify for weapon damage difference…

30/25 = 1.366
30/30 = 1.496

Now modify for damage modifiers

30/25 = 3.25
30/30 = 3.68

Well that isn’t looking good for 30/25. Should I bother calculating crit chance and crit damage into that, since they have the same crit damage only the 30/25 has 7% less crit chance?

As far as 30/x/x/x/30 goes, you’re off in left field because Ferocity will be even worse than base damage modifiers, so a build that was already significantly worse before the patch is going to go to unplayable.

As far as the EA build goes, the new build can eviscerate on full adrenaline which represents a fairly big boost. When you consider significantly higher crit chance and 10% attack speed, it more than makes up for the marginal crit damage the 30/10/0/20/10 build has.

Tree.3916:

Cool story, but it appears I was right, you don’t know how
….

if u think so, well to bad for u. alone that u think 30/25/0/0/15 has the same CRIT-DMG like 30/30/0/10/0 with same traits in strength shows me u have no idea what u talking about.

mentioning food and saying 30xx30 is unplayable is the best joke ever. stick to your pve-world and make your high-end dmg but dont cry if u die else where. it had a reason i mentioned utility

hooma.9642:

Tree.3916:

Cool story, but it appears I was right, you don’t know how
….

if u think so, well to bad for u. alone that u think 30/25/0/0/15 has the same CRIT-DMG like 30/30/0/10/0 with same traits in strength shows me u have no idea what u talking about.

Why would I use Slashing Power in a 30/30 pure axe build? I would use Axe Mastery which gives 150 Ferocity, which would be the same at the 15 in Discipline.

mentioning food and saying 30xx30 is unplayable is the best joke ever. stick to your pve-world and make your high-end dmg but dont cry if u die else where. it had a reason i mentioned utility

Ummm we are talking about pve top dps builds. I guess you weren’t.

Since you’re talking WvW I’m not sure why anyone would run anything but 0/0/30/10/30 or 10/0/30/0/30 in WvW.

Tree.3916:

hooma.9642:

Tree.3916:

Cool story, but it appears I was right, you don’t know how
….

if u think so, well to bad for u. alone that u think 30/25/0/0/15 has the same CRIT-DMG like 30/30/0/10/0 with same traits in strength shows me u have no idea what u talking about.

Why would I use Slashing Power in a 30/30 pure axe build? I would use Axe Mastery which gives 150 Ferocity, which would be the same at the 15 in Discipline.

lol… do i really need to say what traits i use? i was thinking axe mastery+dual wielding is obv. in both builds. esp since im not talking about gs vs dual wielding. my statement about gs was to show that gs has higher aa dps then axe in 30/25 build.

Tree.3916:

mentioning food and saying 30xx30 is unplayable is the best joke ever. stick to your pve-world and make your high-end dmg but dont cry if u die else where. it had a reason i mentioned utility

Ummm we are talking about pve top dps builds. I guess you weren’t.

Since you’re talking WvW I’m not sure why anyone would run anything but 0/0/30/10/30 or 10/0/30/0/30 in WvW.

in pve is still 30/25/0/0/15 gs the highest dps choice. the 10% more attack speed dont compensate the better dmg from other weaponskills and reduced rechargetime.

in 30/30/0/10/0 with axe, no might, no killstacks in lyssa rune and zerker amulett (pvp)
and 3 boons the avg dmg of aa per sec is 1665 against 2600 armor. u see that isnt that much away from the old gs build without might and only aa.

30/10/0/0/30 was previously the highest damage record holder after considering average multiplier in a skill rotation; the +15% critchance trait on full adrenaline gave the equivalent of +315 precision, while the base trait itself gave +30% critdmg that outdoes the +10% from bleed addition from the 25 master trait. 30/25/0/0/15 was +15% critdmg 250 precision (12% critrate), +10% dmg. 30/10/0/0/30 was +30% critdmg 415 precision (20% critrate) as in both cases critrate is nearly 100% when you throw in the signets and banner, 1% critdmg = 1% dmg, so the 30/10/0/0/30 outperformed the 30/25/0/0/15 meta by 5% damage.

The 100b/WWA might only lasts for 5 seconds per proc, and so adds only an additional 350 power for 2-3 seconds on average in axe mode assuming every single hit critted – not enough to make up for the 5% damage loss, and the full-Mighted damage in GS mode is lower than the non-Mighted damage in Axe mode due to the lower multiplier per second value. (5.5+2.8+1.7)/6.5 = 1.69 mult/second, whereas the axe rotation is (1.4+2.4+5)/5 = 1.76. We haven’t yet considered Axe mastery’s effects, which widens this gap. Usage of Slashing Power makes the greatsword burst more than the axe in that build, but giving up Axe Mastery leads to 10% lower damage in the longer axe phase.

However, in the new meta, adding 10% attack speed in addition to the 10% damage on bleed is a base increase of 21% damage. In contrast the formerly good +30% critdmg has been nerfed to 300 ferocity, or 20% damage. When we add in the damage the bleed itself does, the new 30/30/0/10/0 eclipses the old 30/10/0/0/30 build. It also eclipses the more popular old 30/25/0/0/15 build – which after the patch will outdamage the 30/10/0/0/30 due to the Ferocity nerf – by cutting damage of the 30/10/0/0/30 by 10% and the damage of the 30/25/0/0/10 by 3%, the formerly 105% build now becomes 95%, while the 100% becomes 97% – clearly, 97% > 95%, and the 30/10/0/0/30 has become worthless with the update.

In contrast, the 30/30/0/10/0 now adds 10% damage on bleed, 10% damage (due to 10% attack speed), and 300 precision, against the 30/25/0/0/15’s 10% damage on bleed, 250 precision and 7% critdmg%. 20% > 17%, and 300 precision > 250 precision.

The 30/25/0/0/15 is popular but was never actually the most damaging option, and problems with inexperienced players interrupting 100b or the axe autoattack chain (or worse, staying in GS mode) simply made it underperform even more. The rarely used and often maligned 30/10/0/0/30 had superior damage, but its users must now throw it away because critdmg% is no longer worth what it used to be. 30/30/0/10/0 is now the way to go – though since the rest of the gear stats are also being nerfed, even this ‘new best dps’ will lose to the current dps. Across the board, dps will drop after this update.

Btw, if you think GS aa can compete with the axe aa… you really, really need to look up the term ‘power multiplier’. It barely broke even only because of skills 2-3-5, especially skill 3 – WWA greatly outdamages 100B on a dps basis, though for some reason people don’t seem to know that. Any use of skill 1 on a GS instantly drops the 30/25/0/0/15.

Tl;dr – Dump 30/25/0/0/15, dump 30/10/0/0/30 harder, use 30/30/0/10/0. Preferably, 30/30/0/10/0 Axe/Mace+Longbow. You still want to use the GS build so that Sunrise/Twilight/Eternity still has a use, it’s still viable, just not the ‘most’ viable. [Greatsword builds in all other classes are not just-3%, they’re out-and-out bad.] Player skill can still quite easily overcome the 3-5% damage reduction… just don’t expect it to be as viable as it is now.

hooma.9642:

in pve is still 30/25/0/0/15 gs the highest dps choice. the 10% more attack speed dont compensate the better dmg from other weaponskills and reduced rechargetime.

in 30/30/0/10/0 with axe, no might, no killstacks in lyssa rune and zerker amulett (pvp)
and 3 boons the avg dmg of aa per sec is 1665 against 2600 armor. u see that isnt that much away from the old gs build without might and only aa.

IN a fully buffed group/situation going pure axe in the 30/25 build is still better then using gs in the 30/25 build. Axe is just better in every fight lasting over 9 seconds since GS is just good for burst. With the new 10% trait it will push axe even furthur in terms of DPS leaving GS in the dust. While testing in PvP is good to record cast times and what not is nice, its inda useless to test for DPS numbers since you dont have controled buffs or even optimal buffs. A build made for a 5 man party assumes both banners, 25 might, perma fury etc etc. For example in the PvP arena your GS build gets might from its trait and the axe doesnt while in a real dungeon both builds will be caped at 25 might.

Basicly when fully buffed pure axe already crushes GS+Axe in the 30/25 build so come next patch it wont really be a contest anymore with the new trait.

So much misinformation, where to start?

Hayashi.3416:

30/10/0/0/30 was previously the highest damage record holder after considering average multiplier in a skill rotation … as in both cases critrate is nearly 100% when you throw in the signets and banner, 1% critdmg = 1% dmg, so the 30/10/0/0/30 outperformed the 30/25/0/0/15 meta by 5% damage.

Incorrect. 30/10 was about 4-5% worse DPS assuming full party buffs. You do not seem to understand how to calculate DPS, I will demonstrate below why you are incorrect with the bolded portion.

Let’s assume two builds, each has a 100% crit chance. both have no crit damage from gear. Both builds do a base dps of 10k. One build has a 10% dps modifier, and one build has 10% critical damage. According to you, these builds have identical DPS. Let’s see if that is correct…

Build A: (10,000 × 1.1) + ((10,000 × 1.1) *.5) = 16,500 dps
Build B: 10,000 + (10,000 * .6) = 16,000 dps

As you can see, the base damage modifier is significantly better, even when critical damage is low. But critical damage has diminishing returns. What this means is, as you add more critical damage it does not increase your DPS 1:1. at a certain point, doubling your critical damage does not approach a doubling of your DPS. Let’s run the numbers with very high critical damage.

Build A: 11,000 + (11,000*1.6) = 28,600 dps
Build B: 10,000 + (10,000*1.7) = 27,000 dps

The gap has now widened to 6%. The gap will continue to widen the more DPS modifiers you add (since they are multiplicative) and the more critical damage you add. These are the basics of DPS theorycraft in this game, I will be happy to help you with any clarifications you need.

However, in the new meta, adding 10% attack speed in addition to the 10% damage on bleed is a base increase of 21% damage. In contrast the formerly good +30% critdmg has been nerfed to 300 ferocity, or 20% damage. When we add in the damage the bleed itself does, the new 30/30/0/10/0 eclipses the old 30/10/0/0/30 build. It also eclipses the more popular old 30/25/0/0/15 build – which after the patch will outdamage the 30/10/0/0/30 due to the Ferocity nerf – by cutting damage of the 30/10/0/0/30 by 10% and the damage of the 30/25/0/0/10 by 3%, the formerly 105% build now becomes 95%, while the 100% becomes 97% – clearly, 97% > 95%, and the 30/10/0/0/30 has become worthless with the update.

You’re right but for the wrong reasons. 30/10 was always bad, and the reason 30/30 is going to be better than 30/25 is because it is getting another 10% damage modifier (in a sense) and will have a significantly higher crit chance. It is trading away 10% critical damage and Fast Hand for 13% damage modifiers (a very good trade as I showed above) and 7% chance to crit. This is why it is better.

The 30/25/0/0/15 is popular but was never actually the most damaging option, and problems with inexperienced players interrupting 100b or the axe autoattack chain (or worse, staying in GS mode) simply made it underperform even more. The rarely used and often maligned 30/10/0/0/30 had superior damage, but its users must now throw it away because critdmg% is no longer worth what it used to be. 30/30/0/10/0 is now the way to go – though since the rest of the gear stats are also being nerfed, even this ‘new best dps’ will lose to the current dps. Across the board, dps will drop after this update.

You’re wrong. The top DPS warrior build was pure axe (30/25/0/10/5). There is no dispute that this build was clearly superior to all other warrior builds in DPS, but not utility. The small advantage it had in sustained DPS over the GS build was rarely worth giving up the GS utility and burst potential. 30/10, as I have demonstrated was at best the 3rd best option.

Btw, if you think GS aa can compete with the axe aa… you really, really need to look up the term ‘power multiplier’.

There is no such thing as a “Power Multiplier” that is a made up term. Greatsword auto attack is bad because it has a low attack speed. The Greatsword auto attack chain has a coefficient of 2.3 every 2.4 seconds. The Axe auto attack chain is 5.0 over 3.6 seconds. That is remarkably better on a per second basis. However, the greatsword burst skills are a coefficient of 9.3 over 6.2 seconds which is amazingly good. This is why the GS + axe/mace build was used, it had superior burst potential while also having a respectable axe auto attack option. The pure axe (30/25/0/10/5) had better sustained DPS but took about 17+ seconds to achieve superior dps to the gs+axe/mace. Most fights did not last long enough for the sustained advantage to be relevant.

If you need clarification of anything, I will be happy to help because I truly hate misinformation.

I must admit that this reading was enlightning. As you said so kindly before (;P), I don’t know kitten about how to calculate DPS and I didn’t think that this trait was so beneficial.

Anyway, I got carried away by the fact that I am mostly a PvP player (evenif I did a lot of PvE) and that this new trait isn’t going to change anything for me. So yeah, that was biased !

Some people seem to be forgetting that after the patch you can now get 2 sigils on greatswords (along with longbow/rifle).

Probably won’t make GS superior to axe, but it’ll be quite close.

Tree.3916:

Let’s assume two builds, each has a 100% crit chance. both have no crit damage from gear. Both builds do a base dps of 10k. One build has a 10% dps modifier, and one build has 10% critical damage. According to you, these builds have identical DPS. Let’s see if that is correct…

Build A: (10,000 × 1.1) + ((10,000 × 1.1) *.5) = 16,500 dps
Build B: 10,000 + (10,000 * .6) = 16,000 dps

In most MMOs DPS stands for Damage Per Second and I would like to assume that is what is being discussed here (though it was never explicitly stated). And if it is… the above formula is not correct. That is the formula for expected total damage, which is no where near the same thing as DPS. If this was a DPS function, we would expect to see some sort of division in the expression (by units of time). The expected total damage formula is really a poor model to use when attempting to maximize your DPS in my opinion.

Tree.3916:

As you can see, the base damage modifier is significantly better, even when critical damage is low. But critical damage has diminishing returns. What this means is, as you add more critical damage it does not increase your DPS 1:1. at a certain point, doubling your critical damage does not approach a doubling of your DPS. Let’s run the numbers with very high critical damage.

Build A: 11,000 + (11,000*1.6) = 28,600 dps
Build B: 10,000 + (10,000*1.7) = 27,000 dps

The gap has now widened to 6%. The gap will continue to widen the more DPS modifiers you add (since they are multiplicative) and the more critical damage you add. These are the basics of DPS theorycraft in this game, I will be happy to help you with any clarifications you need.

Critical damage is not logrithmic and therefore does not have diminishing returns (given 100% critical rate). Its linear, just like the above formulas that you’ve posted. The reason critical damage looks so undesirable in your above example is that you have made it (arbitrarily) very expensive; 1000 power (base damage) for 0.1 additional critical damage. This is no where near an accurate representation for stats exchange in this game.

Honestly, talking about critical damage while holding crit chance constant really negates the potential of critical damage. Crit dmg really shines when comparing builds with low crit, high power vs high crit, low power. its in those cases when crit dmg can really show its weight.

If you read the assumption, I said “assume both builds do a base 10,000 dps.” That took into account the /time factor you are looking for. To be technical, the equation I presented was “average expected damage per second.”

Next, I chose my numbers for the sake of being round. If you change the 10,000 to 5,000 or 1,000 the conclusion is exactly the same.

Lastly, you don’t even seem to understand what the numbers I typed express. The extra 1000 dps that build A receives is not Power. It was a 10% damage modifier, the sort you would get from Attack of Opportunity. A 10% damage modifier does indeed function in the manner I described. Critical damage functions in the manner I described. Adding 150 Ferocity to a build adds a critical damage of 10%. In that equation it would be expressed as a .1. This is how the game works.

I’ll be happy to help you clear up your confusions if you have any remaining. Like I offered the previous confused fellow, I would rather answer your questions about how the game works than have to debunk your misconceptions like I just did. It would be easier and more pleasant for everyone if you asked the questions first.

Some people seem to be forgetting that after the patch you can now get 2 sigils on greatswords (along with longbow/rifle).
Probably won’t make GS superior to axe, but it’ll be quite close.

I didn’t. When I calculated the dps for each build post patch I included a Force sigil on the greatsword.

Tree.3916:

If you read the assumption, I said “assume both builds do a base 10,000 dps.” That took into account the /time factor you are looking for.

Yes, I did read your assumption. Right after you accused another person of not knowing how to calculate DPS. Then I watched as you used the “Average Damage” forumla to assert your claims. Taken straight from the wiki;

Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 – Critical Chance ) + Base damage * ( Critical Chance * (Critical Damage + 1.5) )

Since you took the above formula and used “base 10,000 dps” in place of Base damage, thus erroneously replacing one variable for another, I assumed you didnt know the difference between Base damage and Base damage per second. Which are not the same thing. But for some reason, you treated them like the same thing. And since you gave no justification for this like you should have, the only conclusion left to jump to is that you are in error. (Which you are.)

Tree.3916:

To be technical, the equation I presented was “average expected damage per second.”

To be technical, no you didnt. For completeness;

Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 – Critical Chance ) + Base damage * ( Critical Chance * (Critical Damage + 1.5) )

Which I took straight from the wiki page. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit

Tree.3916:

Next, I chose my numbers for the sake of being round. If you change the 10,000 to 5,000 or 1,000 the conclusion is exactly the same.

Arbitrary. In the math world when we pick w/e values we want and the values dont really matter, we use the word arbitrary. And if this is in reference to your claim that critical damage is logarithmic when crit is held constant, and is thus a stat that suffers from diminishing returns, you are still wrong. In fact you can even independently verify this yourself using pen and paper assuming you know how to plot graphs in 3 dimensions. Or know how to use wolfram alpha. Spoiler alert: its just a plane. Which is linear, as I’ve already told you.

Tree.3916:

Lastly, you don’t even seem to understand what the numbers I typed express. The extra 1000 dps that build A receives is not Power. It was a 10% damage modifier, the sort you would get from Attack of Opportunity. A 10% damage modifier does indeed function in the manner I described. Critical damage functions in the manner I described. Adding 150 Ferocity to a build adds a critical damage of 10%. In that equation it would be expressed as a .1. This is how the game works.

Actually it is you that does not seem to grasp both the numbers or labeling that you are using. You are claiming that the arbitrary 1000 value picked is not power (base damage), but DPS. Even though you use the “Average Damage” formula to show your calculation. Which you justify by assumption. Should I copy paste the formula a third time?

Tree.3916:

I’ll be happy to help you clear up your confusions if you have any remaining.

You mean like the part where one of us confused the “AVERAGE DAMAGE” formula and treated as if it could be used to calculate expected damage per second. Or the part where one of us thought that critical damage behaves like an inverse exponential function?

Tree.3916:

Like I offered the previous confused fellow, I would rather answer your questions about how the game works than have to debunk your misconceptions like I just did.

Well frankly I would rather you stop pretending you understand other peoples “misconceptions” before understanding your own. You haven’t debunked any of my claims. In fact you haven’t even come close. You know what? Lets be clear what my claims are here so that you can debunk them.

Claim1: The “Average Damage” formula cannot be used to calculate DPS and can only be used to calculate… average damage.

Claim2: Critical damage does not have diminishing returns and is linear.

Hard to say I think.

The trait that gives 10% crit damage while wielding an Axe will be (at least I assume) nerfed with the Ferocity change. And Greatsword will also be able to have 2 sigils.

There will be the new trait in Arms to allow a potential 30/30/0/10/0 build, increasing Axe attack speed by 10%, which is basically a 10% damage increase

Think I will be going 10-30-0-0-30 axe/axe-LB

Think it will be the most fun as you can F1 a lot and will be one of best burst builds

I hope that build is not for PvE since if it is i doubt it belongs in the “Best weapon set post patch” thread.

I really don’t think the dual world build is actually a 10- 14% DPS increase. It is if you can constantly stay on an enemy and DPS, which is true for faceroll dungeons like CoF, but for other actually challenging fights, that can’t really happen.

I haven’t played warr that much but even if I run a AH Knight guardian, I still have to peel of a lot in places like 40+ FotM, and look for openings to attack instead of just clinging onto the boss. So in that regard, big hits like HB or risk-free attacks like GS3 (or GS3 against a wall) has major place in combat.

All in all, you can’t really calculate DPS in GW2 like you can for games like WoW, simply because you can’t just run rotations over and over again in a lot if fights.

^ dual wield trait, not build. Can’t edit on my phone.

oilstorm.1748:

Well frankly I would rather you stop pretending you understand other peoples “misconceptions” before understanding your own. You haven’t debunked any of my claims. In fact you haven’t even come close. You know what? Lets be clear what my claims are here so that you can debunk them.

Claim1: The “Average Damage” formula cannot be used to calculate DPS and can only be used to calculate… average damage.

Claim2: Critical damage does not have diminishing returns and is linear.

Oh I understand. People who have math backgrounds and know the jargon get insulted when people who don’t have math backgrounds like me, understand theorycraft. If you’re offended by me using incorrect terminology, fine, but don’t let that distract from that fact that my conclusions are 100% correct, and the previous fellow was wrong.

Claim 1: I don’t care about this. You seem overly concerned with the jargon I used rather than the point I made. He specifically said that at 100% crit chance a 1% critical damage increase = a 1% dps increase. This is undeniably incorrect and I demonstrated why. Regardless of whether my using the math terminology incorrect is abrasive to your sensibilities, my conclusion was correct.

Claim 2: It is linear. But it also improves your dps by a smaller overall percentage as you add more of it, whereas base damage modifiers will always improve your DPS by that amount regardless of scaling. As a quick and dirty example (im sure you’ll hate) if a character has 100% critical damage. And you spend 10 trait points to increase it to 110%, you get some amount overall DPS increase. Let’s call it 7%. If you add ANOTHER 10 trait points to increase to 120%, your overall DPS will only increase by, say, 5%. Thus, the returns from the second 10 trait points are diminished from the first, which is what I was talking about when I said “diminishing returns.” Again, don’t get caught up in the technical terms I was using, worry that the theorycraft is correct, which it is.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I really don’t think the dual world build is actually a 10- 14% DPS increase. It is if you can constantly stay on an enemy and DPS, which is true for faceroll dungeons like CoF, but for other actually challenging fights, that can’t really happen.

I haven’t played warr that much but even if I run a AH Knight guardian, I still have to peel of a lot in places like 40+ FotM, and look for openings to attack instead of just clinging onto the boss. So in that regard, big hits like HB or risk-free attacks like GS3 (or GS3 against a wall) has major place in combat.

All in all, you can’t really calculate DPS in GW2 like you can for games like WoW, simply because you can’t just run rotations over and over again in a lot if fights.

you talk about getting “openings to attack” and mention hundred blades immediately after. I do not compute.

in groups, axe is really good for fights where you will be interrupting hundred blades a lot. it’s going to be even easier to not mess up your DPS by interrupting your autoattack since it’s 10% faster.

you will be fine running the 30/30/0/10/0 build post-patch in almost every fight, even Lupicus (with a good group you will kill it fast enough to not really need defensive skills that GS provides).

however, the 30/30/0/10/0 is worse than pre-existing meta 30/25/0/0/15 by a fair margin in the event that you have 0 might, so for reeaaaaallllyyy dysfunctional pugs you should still stick to the current meta build.

Lupi isn’t a fight that requires much movement in a perfect melee group. But I’d imagine you want GS on that for phase 3’s PBAoE

Let me give you and example then. That golem boss in the harpie fractal. I don’t know about you but whenever I fight that thing it tends to only stay still for 5 seconds at most before shooting out his meow lazers. And I don’t think you can just face tank the lazers in full zerker. So, it favors having a lot burst damage.

And to a lesser extent, the legendary archdiver in collosus. I say lesser because if you have lightning reflexes to dodge his split second hammer smash, you probably can stay on him, but if you don’t like me, then it’s better to not eat dirt half the fight.

Then you have bosses like the dredge end boss where you just have to constantly move, so you can quite easily HB/WWA it once it’s in position, but you certainly can’t just stick on him with melee.

Both the bosses you gave as an example you can stick to them in melee no problem, the dredge boss (both versions) are not that hard to melee, just need to dodge their respective attacks and just keep DPSing, and the golem boss (old tom iirc) you just stand behind a guardian (or use untraited wardens or an earth elemental) and and DPS, sure the guardian might down but even when down he will block for you so the other 4 party members can safely stack behind him and DPS him down no problem.

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Both the bosses you gave as an example you can stick to them in melee no problem, the dredge boss (both versions) are not that hard to melee, just need to dodge their respective attacks and just keep DPSing, and the golem boss (old tom iirc) you just stand behind a guardian (or use untraited wardens or an earth elemental) and and DPS, sure the guardian might down but even when down he will block for you so the other 4 party members can safely stack behind him and DPS him down no problem.

Dredge isn’t hard to dodge at all, the ice ele’s adds are a bit of a problem but its still managable, the problem is him aggroing you and screwing up the pull.

A zerk Guardian will go down very very fast, at least on 40+, and will also then die rather fast unless you res him, which nets you 2 players doing nothing and possibly a dead guy at the end.

guanlongwucaii.3162:

however, the 30/30/0/10/0 is worse than pre-existing meta 30/25/0/0/15 by a fair margin in the event that you have 0 might, so for reeaaaaallllyyy dysfunctional pugs you should still stick to the current meta build.

^This. I know you have said this twice now and I am just now responding, but I totally agree with this. However I actually think that the pugs dont have to be all that dysfunctional. In fact, I am pretty sure that 30/25/0/0/10 will beat out all other builds unless you are running a very organized and skilled group that can maximize might, fury and invuln with near 100% up time for each. (Though to be honest, I wont be doing the math for this until after finals, so right now this is just theory.)

For those curious as to how to calculate this, both might and invuln can be approximated using Poisson distributions.

Xae Isareth.1364:

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Both the bosses you gave as an example you can stick to them in melee no problem, the dredge boss (both versions) are not that hard to melee, just need to dodge their respective attacks and just keep DPSing, and the golem boss (old tom iirc) you just stand behind a guardian (or use untraited wardens or an earth elemental) and and DPS, sure the guardian might down but even when down he will block for you so the other 4 party members can safely stack behind him and DPS him down no problem.

Dredge isn’t hard to dodge at all, the ice ele’s adds are a bit of a problem but its still managable, the problem is him aggroing you and screwing up the pull.

A zerk Guardian will go down very very fast, at least on 40+, and will also then die rather fast unless you res him, which nets you 2 players doing nothing and possibly a dead guy at the end.

We are talking about old tom right? Since it isnt a problem.. before the guardian is full dead old tom is already dead so there is no real issue with this evne with zerker guardian at 40+

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Xae Isareth.1364:

Delay.6908:

Both the bosses you gave as an example you can stick to them in melee no problem, the dredge boss (both versions) are not that hard to melee, just need to dodge their respective attacks and just keep DPSing, and the golem boss (old tom iirc) you just stand behind a guardian (or use untraited wardens or an earth elemental) and and DPS, sure the guardian might down but even when down he will block for you so the other 4 party members can safely stack behind him and DPS him down no problem.

Dredge isn’t hard to dodge at all, the ice ele’s adds are a bit of a problem but its still managable, the problem is him aggroing you and screwing up the pull.

A zerk Guardian will go down very very fast, at least on 40+, and will also then die rather fast unless you res him, which nets you 2 players doing nothing and possibly a dead guy at the end.

We are talking about old tom right? Since it isnt a problem.. before the guardian is full dead old tom is already dead so there is no real issue with this evne with zerker guardian at 40+

In a fully optimised group, perhaps (I’ve yet to actually run 40+ with one because it’s a struggle to find a full group for 40+ as it is), but in reality, you probably won’t run with optimised groups all the time, even if you’re a part of a huge guild.

If I face tank the guy on my zerk guardian point blank without an ele doing heals I’m down in about 5-10 seconds, depending on where the lasers come from. You’re gonna need a lot of DPS to pull it off.

oilstorm.1748:

Ok, let me put this in terms you’ll understand. In fact, your terms. Suppose your character has 100% crit damage, 100% crit chance, and you then spend 10 points to increase your crit damage to 110% which results in a 7% overall DPS increase. What happens when you spend another 10 points? THE FUNCTION IS A LINE, YOU GET ANOTHER 7% OVERALL DPS. I no longer care if you believe it or not. In fact, I actually wrote that for the benefits of those in this thread, just in case anyone still believes this actual misconception.

At this point, I know what I am dealing with here. Not that it matters, I have shown what I wanted to show. No doubt you will post some rebuttal about how you BELIEVE you are right and/or that the opinions of others arent valid. A rebuttal that will likely be a bunch of noise, resting on BELIEF.

1,000 base damage + (1,000 * 1.0) = 2,000 damage
1,000 + (1000 * 1.1) = 2,100 = 4.8% dps increase
1,000 + (1000 * 1.2) = 2,200 = 4.5%
1000 + (1000 * 1.3) = 2,300 = 4.3%

This continues infinitely.

Tree.3916:

1,000 base damage + (1,000 * 1.0) = 2,000 damage
1,000 + (1000 * 1.1) = 2,100 = 4.8% dps increase
1,000 + (1000 * 1.2) = 2,200 = 4.5%
1000 + (1000 * 1.3) = 2,300 = 4.3%

This continues infinitely.

The function f(x) = 1,000 + (1,000 * X) is linear. ( Y = MX + b) The function g(x) = 1 – ( previous damage)/ (new damage) is very much not linear. In fact, if you treat power in the same manner;
1,000 + (1,000X) = 1,000(1 + X)
1,100 + (1,100X) = 1,100(1 + X) => 1 – [1,000(1 + X)]/[1,100(1 + X)] = 0.0909090…
1,200 + (1,200X) = 1,200(1 + X) => 1 – [1,100(1 + X)]/[1,200(1 + X)] = 0.083333…
1,300 + (1,300X) = 1,300(1 + X) => 1 – [1,200(1 + X)]/[1,300(1 + X)] = 0.0769230…

As you can see, you get the same results. g(x) is not only not linear, its not even the equation you want, resulting in thinking that crit damage suffers from diminishing returns and thus, is an inferior stat.

However, lets examine whats actually happening. Note; For simplicity, I’m just going to call base damage and power the same thing. Crit is roughly defined as a attack that has some probability to hit harder. And for more simplicity, we will just say that it hits 1.5 times harder. This means that if you can reach 100% crit chance, you are hitting just as hard as someone that has 1.5 times as much power as you (but no crit). Thus, if you are sitting at 100% crit chance and can get your crit damage up to 250%, you essentially are hitting just as hard as someone with two and a half times as much power (and no crit). So you can see that crit damage not only does not suffer from diminshing returns, but was (is) the second most powerful stat we have. Basically, each percent you have in crit damage is equivalent to that same number times of power you have.

1,000 + (1,000*0) = 1,000
1,000 + (1,000 * 0.5) = 1,500
1,000 + (1,000 * 1.5) = 2,500
1,000 + (1,000 * 2.5) = 3,500

Thus if you had a base damage/power of 1,000 and no crit, you would remain with 1,000 base damage/power. And with that same base damage of 1,000, you increase your base damage 2 and half times just by maxing your crit chance and gaining 100% more crit damage. Moreover (and this is the point) that max crit chance and 100% more crit damage is worth 1,500 base damage in this example.

This is why this patch hurt our dps so much.