Guild Wars 2

It was mentioned in the SotG that warriors were prime candidates for receiving a “Boon hate” build somehow, defined as a damage bonus that scales with the number of boons on your foe.

I love warrior, and this would probably be a powerful tool against bunkers but… does anyone else think it’s pretty lame? There’s already the concern about new players in general being confused at spvp/tpvp play, and “boon” is supposed to mean “beneficial”. If boons are turned into weapons that can be readily used against you then, well.. it’s not really beneficial at all is it? And confusing to a new player, “oh you died because you used a lot of beneficial abilities”.

Necromancers already have Corrupt Boon which transforms all boons into their opposite condition to amazing effect, and some other anti-boon tools. It’s a niche role right now, and a very useful one, and you can play against it wisely by using boons sparingly when fighting a necro. However if warrior and some other classes get “boon hate”, then you just will never really be able to really react to it since it will be this ubiquitous thing used by many classes and builds. So the end result will probably just be everyone moving away from boon usage for fear of these anti-boon mechanics.

I think it’d be best to leave Necromancer with the role of boon punisher, it’s unique and fun to play as, and you can play around it if you’re fighting against one. What warrior needs in my opinion isn’t an overhaul or new mechanics, but just bug fixes.

Like bolas not working on slopes
Projectiles in general missing their target, due to the built in motion prediction
Shouts being blocked, evaded, not landing due to blindness etc.
Eviscerating in place (not sure what causes this one)
Hammer F1 not connecting under various conditions, especially on slopes
Endure Pain not lasting full duration
etc.

I’d rather have boon strip then hate, that’ll show those DD eles @@

Both hate and strip. Deal +x% damage for every boon on your target. Also strip 1 boon.

It’s not as OP as it sounds. The less boons a target has, the more selective the attacker needs to be with using a cooldown that strips boons.

More damage is the last thing Warriors need. I really, really hope they don’t just mean more damage depending on the number of Boons on your target.

I’d like a trait that uses Protection against the foe by making them suffer more damage. Give those pompous Guardians a reason to think twice.

There is something called the “halo” effect, and pretty much it means that when someone first looks at you (the warrior in this case) they come to a conclusion about you based on how you look. All boon hate would do is make warrior more appealing… at first. Though it is an interesting idea, when it comes down to it, a build that utilizes “boon hating” will be very situational, just like the the standard 100b builds we have now.

Let’s face it, a warrior is more likely going to be replaced by a thief for mobility and burst in a tpvp group, and as far as boon stripping/punishing, you have the Necro, and then the Mesmer with Null Field. So, if you’re a boon hate warrior in a group with either of these classes, your usefulness is already hindered.

If they really wanted to bring the warrior up to par with the other classes, then they need to look at some of the most used warrior builds. Such as Defektives LB/GS build, or Shwahrheits Hammer/S&WH build, or even Golradaers Spartan build. The devs need to study what makes these builds better than the rest, and instead of buffing them, try to buff the other utilities/traits that aren’t commonly used.

A great example for the devs would be 20 points into strength, Slashing Power vs. Dual Wielding. Why take DW when it only gives a 5% damage increase, and SP gives a 10% increase? Because of this one trait, more people are swayed towards a GS build than a DW build. If the damage of the DW trait was increased to 10% to match SP, then we would see more people DW.

This is how balancing should be done.

On the Slashing Power point, I assume that’s because two-handers are limited to just one sigil. So that trait is basically a 5% damage bonus with a built in 5% damage sigil.

vorpal.1497:

On the Slashing Power point, I assume that’s because two-handers are limited to just one sigil. So that trait is basically a 5% damage bonus with a built in 5% damage sigil.

True, but a successful 100b will still do more damage (on average and without quickness) than axe 1 spamming, and on top of that, why should someone who wants to DW have to give up on a sigil slot just to make up for the damage % deficit.

Boon hate is good or bad depending on how it’s made.
First off realize that only protection and stability are the boons that make bunkers so strong (with retaliation coming next).
Bunkers will simply run with just those 2 boons and maybe 1 more, so unless boon hate is 5% per boon or more, it’ll be useless.
I suspect Anet will make it 3% (they’re scared of big buffs), people will run Prot/Stab and we’ll still suck in tPvP.

Perhaps warriors should get +5% damage against opponents with aegis.

Stooperdale.3560:

Perhaps warriors should get +5% damage against opponents with aegis.

lol..

NDHWAR.4853:

successful 100b […] (on average and without quickness)

Yeah… Goodluck with that.

Max DPS that you’re gonna land on anyone in PvP/WvW is Axe/Mace. Unless you account for the Bullcharge > Quickness > 100b gimmick which is both easy to avoid, burns 2 utility skills at least, and requires quickness. And even then you only get more damage out of it if you land almost the entire thing.

peter.9024:

Stooperdale.3560:

Perhaps warriors should get +5% damage against opponents with aegis.

lol..

Give warriors a 100000% increase damage to foes with aegis.

bradderzh.2378:

peter.9024:

Stooperdale.3560:

Perhaps warriors should get +5% damage against opponents with aegis.

lol..

Give warriors a 100000% increase damage to foes with aegis.

Heck, make them automatically one-shot enemies with Aegis.

ProxyDamage.9826:

NDHWAR.4853:

successful 100b […] (on average and without quickness)

Yeah… Goodluck with that.

Max DPS that you’re gonna land on anyone in PvP/WvW is Axe/Mace. Unless you account for the Bullcharge > Quickness > 100b gimmick which is both easy to avoid, burns 2 utility skills at least, and requires quickness. And even then you only get more damage out of it if you land almost the entire thing.

Yet not a single person of any decent skill seriously uses Axe/Mace in sPvP. Warriors are already incredibly immobile even with a greatsword. If you take Axe/Mace, you’ll be shut down instantly in any sort of tournament group fight, on top of you already being very squishy.

Sorry, but don’t expect anyone to take a build that works in hotjoin serious. I can run a sword/sword rifle condi warrior and do well in hotjoin.

Heck, I once went into a hotjoin match with nothing but an offhand axe and still killed people.

so unless boon hate is 5% per boon or more, it’ll be useless.

That change would simply kill the guardian as a class. Without boons we are nothing but a less mobile, less tanky, less damaging warrior.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Yeah… Goodluck with that.

Max DPS that you’re gonna land on anyone in PvP/WvW is Axe/Mace. Unless you account for the Bullcharge > Quickness > 100b gimmick which is both easy to avoid, burns 2 utility skills at least, and requires quickness. And even then you only get more damage out of it if you land almost the entire thing.

Completely wrong.
1) 100b is easy to avoid only if it comes from a noob warrior that uses it up-front.
Good Warriors make the enemy waste all CDs/dodges before using it.
2) Damage of GS is better when you take into account mobility. Axe deals zero dmg to someone kiting you. Infact Axe/Mace has zero mobility.

Realize that all tPvP Warriors use GS/LB for a reason.

Iavra.8510:

That change would simply kill the guardian as a class. Without boons we are nothing but a less mobile, less tanky, less damaging warrior.

Let’s be intellectually honest please.
Vs 2-3 boons (I assume Prot/Ret/Vig) it would be 10-15% dmg increase, not even remotely enough to kill the Guardian class.

Boon hate shouldn’t be damage per boon. Boon hate should be short-term boon leeching.

In other words something like, “Striking a target with >1 boons grants you Swiftness; > 2 boons grants Swiftness and Might; > 3 boons grants Swiftness, Might, and Protection.”

You don’t want to punish players for applying good skills to themselves, you want to help classes that are lacking in the boon and boon ripping department combat other classes who have a large access to boons.

The GS skill Arcing Slice could be given the first skill-based burst ability based on this mechanic. Boons applied this way could last for 5s, 10s, or 15s depending on adrenaline level.

Vs 2-3 boons (I assume Prot/Ret/Vig) it would be 10-15% dmg increase

If we could decide to only have this 3 boons, yes. But if you look at Hammer auto-attack, GS auto-attack, Virtues 5 minor trait (a trait we HAVE to take if you want to spec into Virtues) there are a lot of boons we are simply getting without having the option to decline them.

Also, look at our utility skills. Shouts are basically the only ones that are worth taking if you want to support your group.

, not even remotely enough to kill the Guardian class.

What class are you playing? I’ve lost against players of all classes so far because they were simply better than me. Just don’t expect to rush into a guardian and hit him until he collapses. That won’t do it. We are made entirely for frontline fighting without an actual option to go ranged.

The GS skill Arcing Slice could be given the first skill-based burst ability based on this mechanic. Boons applied this way could last for 5s, 10s, or 15s depending on adrenaline level.

15s of protection is hefty but i agree that GS F1 needs a burst. I have basically never seen a warrior using it.

Whilst I agree that the GS burst needs to be made into something people actually want to use, last thing we need is giving yet another reason to pick GS over other weapons.

Iavra.8510:

so unless boon hate is 5% per boon or more, it’ll be useless.

That change would simply kill the guardian as a class. Without boons we are nothing but a less mobile, less tanky, less damaging warrior.

protection + aegis + block can be used to mow down a warrior regardless!
i doubt any class would had a problem to easily mowdown a boonhate warrior.. seeing how weak the profession is at pvp.

Whilst I agree that the GS burst needs to be made into something people actually want to use, last thing we need is giving yet another reason to pick GS over other weapons.

True. Unprominent weapon combinations are the ones which should get some love. Not the already prominent ones.

protection + aegis + block can be used to mow down a warrior regardless!

Guardians have an inherent advantage over burstbuilds that rely on single strong attacks or short periods of, say, quickness. That is because of their aegis and blocks.

Basically, the only thing a “boon hate” in form of more damage towards buffed chars would do is to make glas cannon burst builds even better than they are currently.

When i start fighting against someone, i expect the fight to last ~5-10 mins against a skilled opponent before i either win, lose or we agree on a draw. When i am winning, most of the time it’s because my opponent overextended and was out of options to fight against me.

Red Falcon.8257:

Let’s be intellectually honest please.
Vs 2-3 boons (I assume Prot/Ret/Vig) it would be 10-15% dmg increase, not even remotely enough to kill the Guardian class.

Hell, that’s not even half of the Protection boon, which Guardians can have almost constantly.

Sil.4560:

Red Falcon.8257:

Let’s be intellectually honest please.
Vs 2-3 boons (I assume Prot/Ret/Vig) it would be 10-15% dmg increase, not even remotely enough to kill the Guardian class.

Hell, that’s not even half of the Protection boon, which Guardians can have almost constantly.

It would however further cement the Warrior class into nothing more than Berserker builds. A pure damage increase like this is not what the class wants nor need. Just like the Banner buff, it is just throwing us a bone without addressing any real issues we have.

Oh, I’d definitely like more sustain or ability to be self-sufficient.

Hell, that’s not even half of the Protection boon, which Guardians can have almost constantly.

If we can we either build for it (at least +60% boon duration and multiple sources of protection) or stand in place spamming hammer #1. While the latter can easily be countered by just moving, high boon duration builds need something in exchange for other traits/runes they could have taken instead.

Besides: If you really want boon hate to specifically work against protection, you are undermining the whole purpose of the boon which is damage reduction.

Also, i haven’t been able to constantly keep protection up to this very day. And if so, i would have to use SY! which i rarely use because of its egoistic nature. The sheer number of boons also brings the risk of being melted by necros which i want to prevent at all cost.

peter.9024:

I’d rather have boon strip then hate, that’ll show those DD eles @@

What so funny about your comment is that most eles agree.

Iavra.8510:

so unless boon hate is 5% per boon or more, it’ll be useless.

That change would simply kill the guardian as a class. Without boons we are nothing but a less mobile, less tanky, less damaging warrior.

Not true. I very rarely have boons up on my Guardian, and he’s able to be extremely mobile in combat with flashing blade and judge’s intervention. The few boons if any that I have is either might from aegis blocks, vigor from crits, and/or any conditions I turn into boons for a brief period of time with CoP (which last like what, 3 seconds?). My warrior runs more boons than my Guardian 90% of the time in any given fight (might, vigor, fury, swiftness). Having boon hate will just make those who constantly spam ‘save yourselves’ have a harder time now.

I never use SY! and have constant 3-4 boons on me, because that’s what the Healway build is doing.

Maybe i was stating it wrong: The change wouldn’t kill the class as it’s whole but one of only two builds that are actually playable.

Iavra.8510:

What class are you playing? I’ve lost against players of all classes so far because they were simply better than me. Just don’t expect to rush into a guardian and hit him until he collapses. That won’t do it. We are made entirely for frontline fighting without an actual option to go ranged.

Wait, you lost against a warrior on your guardian, at the current state of the game? We are not talking about beta, are we? I am not saying, warriors are bad or have no place, but head to head with a guardian…

Iavra.8510:

Hell, that’s not even half of the Protection boon, which Guardians can have almost constantly.

If we can we either build for it (at least +60% boon duration and multiple sources of protection) or stand in place spamming hammer #1. While the latter can easily be countered by just moving, high boon duration builds need something in exchange for other traits/runes they could have taken instead.

Besides: If you really want boon hate to specifically work against protection, you are undermining the whole purpose of the boon which is damage reduction.

Also, i haven’t been able to constantly keep protection up to this very day. And if so, i would have to use SY! which i rarely use because of its egoistic nature. The sheer number of boons also brings the risk of being melted by necros which i want to prevent at all cost.

I highly doubt boon hate will be any more than 5% damage per boon, so no, applying protection is beneficial no matter how you look at it in that sense.

Wait, you lost against a warrior on your guardian, at the current state of the game? We are not talking about beta, are we? I am not saying, warriors are bad or have no place, but head to head with a guardian…

Well, i know from german forums that you are a troll but i will answer you regardless.

Yes, i lost vs warriors. Those were good players that knew how to play their class and didn’t waste all their utility skills in one burst that is easily avoideable. Warrior CC is extremely strong and guardian slow by design.

I also had about 15 stacks of bleed on me from one warrior one time. He managed to pull this off real quick while i had no stunbreak ready and would’ve certainly died in seconds if i had no cleanse ready.

More damage is better. Nobody is scared of the warrior anymore.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

More damage is better. Nobody is scared of the warrior anymore.

This. I shred warriors to pieces, wether I am on my own warrior and kill them with experience or on my guardian simply because the class is superior in 1on1 combat.

And lavra, calling troll on me won’t solve your l2play issues. Just saying.

Because if i lose against a player who is using a class you consider bad i must clearly be a bad player. Well, maybe i am, but maybe he was just better than me and knew how to play against my build?

I shred warriors to pieces, wether I am on my own warrior and kill them with experience

I knew it! Warrior must be a bad class because it’s losing against other warriors!

Iavra.8510:

Because if i lose against a player who is using a class you consider bad i must clearly be a bad player. Well, maybe i am, but maybe he was just better than me and knew how to play against my build?

I shred warriors to pieces, wether I am on my own warrior and kill them with experience

I knew it! Warrior must be a bad class because it’s losing against other warriors!

I don’t consider the warrior a bad class, but in terms of dueling he is clearly inferior to the guardian.

Partial quoting is always bad as it leads to wrong assumptions. Do you have a max level warrior? I do, it is my beloved main with more than 900h of gameplay. I also have a max level guardian with healway build (the same build you use, iirc), so I know what this class is capable of. I mostly use my warrior as stunbot / speedbot nowadays, when noone in our party can provide perma swiftness. For anything else, I switch to my guardian for better performance. Seriously, losing a 1on1 against a warrior is quite hard for a properly played guardian.

But we are derailing this thread. Boon punishment build. Yay.

Iavra.8510:

so unless boon hate is 5% per boon or more, it’ll be useless.

That change would simply kill the guardian as a class. Without boons we are nothing but a less mobile, less tanky, less damaging warrior.

“save yourselves” boon stripped, dead lol.

Guardians got boons instead of raw hp, Devs turn boons into a negative guardians are an ex class.

Lol I can see it now some dies, its the guardians fault he put too many boons on me.

i think boon stealing or boon stripping would be enough of a counter. same mechanics they have in place already 30% on crit steal a buff 5 stacks of bleed steal a buff. something like that. people who really cared about countering buffs could grab both traits to steal on crit and bleed.

cargan.5689:

Iavra.8510:

so unless boon hate is 5% per boon or more, it’ll be useless.

That change would simply kill the guardian as a class. Without boons we are nothing but a less mobile, less tanky, less damaging warrior.

“save yourselves” boon stripped, dead lol.

Guardians got boons instead of raw hp, Devs turn boons into a negative guardians are an ex class.

Lol I can see it now some dies, its the guardians fault he put too many boons on me.

The damage increase isn’t going to be astronomical for boon hate…I’m not entirely sure what people are expecting but even if the damage increase was 1% per unique boon type on a player (which isn’t completely unreasonable), a boon hate build isn’t going to break Guardians or Elementalists….it’ll keep heavy boon reliant builds on their toes a little more as they run the risk of taking some extra damage.

Also for some food for thought:
Say my 1% damage per unique boon idea is right, and you have 5 boons up during an engagement. That’s 5% extra damage that’s coming to you. If one of those boons up is protection, which gives 33% damage reduction, you’re still reducing 28% incoming damage even with someone who has boon hate hitting you.

the one thing i think the devs should learn from the video.. NEVER DO IT AGAIN. every word they have said was twisted and blown out of proportion and speculated on.

Setun.4368:

Also for some food for thought:
Say my 1% damage per unique boon idea is right, and you have 5 boons up during an engagement. That’s 5% extra damage that’s coming to you. If one of those boons up is protection, which gives 33% damage reduction, you’re still reducing 28% incoming damage even with someone who has boon hate hitting you.

Only thing is if the boons are stripped i dont have that 33% reduction any more, i guess we will see.

I guess it doesnt matter a lot any way the reason i saw the thread is i realised i can survive just as well on a warrior and do a ton more dps if guardians get nerfed in a misguided attemt to tone down DD eles ill be on my warrior any way.