After I costed all adrenaline to activate my burst skill, i was disappoint.
It just a normal skill that compared with other classes F1, like my 12345.
In fact some weapon skill more like to be “burst” skill… Anyway costing all adrenaline—its not worth it.
What is the value of burst skill (and that 10 points 1% traits)? Would ANet has any plan to fix warriors F1 skill become more efficiency?
Well, the problem is that the F1 abilities are pretty imbalanced when compared.
Hammer, Sword, Longbow, Rifle and Mace are considered worth “sacrificing” the Adrenaline on, while Greatsword and Axe aren’t.
Secondly, the benefits of being at max Adrenaline with the two Traits Berserker’s Power and Heightened Focus generally out-weigh the benefits from your Burst.
Hammer, Sword, Longbow and Mace are considered worth “sacrificing” the Adrenaline on, while Greatsword and Axe aren’t.
Um, What? Axe burst is the only one worth using for DPS;because its actually a burst of damage. And if you cant recover 3 levels of adrenaline fairly fast you’re doing something wrong anyway.
Is the axe burst considered not worth it? I leveled with a build focused around building adrenaline quickly to get the big dmg from Eviscerate as much as possibly, and it worked really well.
I would have to say that most burst skills are “worth it” if you’re built properly.
Axe does massive damage on a short leap
Sword immobilizes in an AoE and stacks up tons of bleed
Hammer is a leap, an AoE blast finisher, and a 2s stun
Longbow lays a massive fire field which causes burning and does damage
Rifle does massive damage at 1500 range
The only ones I’d consider “not worth it” are the Greatsword’s trade off (which they are admittedly looking at) and the Mace’s stun. When compared with the Hammer, the Mace seems rather lackluster. Maybe since I’ve never built around the Mace I don’t know how to use it effectively, but I doubt it’s worth dropping the adrenaline on over whatever your other weapon set is.
The Discipline line needs a stat change. The percent-per-point was decreased to .1 because of overpowering damage skills like Eviscerate and Kill Shot but it isn’t effective enough for the burst skills that are not massive damage increasers; which is most of them.
The usefulness of Skull Crack comes when combo’ing it with the stun you already have when running with the Mace. Add Shield Bash (perhaps in addition with Bull’s Rush) to that and you can disable someone for a good couple of seconds if you time it right.
Not in comparison to keeping at full Adrenaline with Berserker’s Power/H. Focus and keep chopping away with your auto-attack, no.
At least, that’s my take on it.
Well granted if your traited for Axe crit damage the burst is well worth it. The average from my axe bursts I tend to hit 12k+ for burst and recover adrenaline in 4-6 seconds less if I just use the healing ability to get max right away after using.
The Axe trait is not exlcusive to the Burst; it also works with auto-attacks. The biggest advantage of the Axe is also somewhat of a disadvantage; the auto-attack is so good that you penalize yourself far too much if you stop using it in favour of something else – which is why Axe is generally a poor choice for Off-hand weapons due to Whirling Axe not coming close to the damage of the auto-attack.
The Axe trait is not exlcusive to the Burst; it also works with auto-attacks. The biggest advantage of the Axe is also somewhat of a disadvantage; the auto-attack is so good that you penalize yourself far too much if you stop using it in favour of something else – which is why Axe is generally a poor choice for Off-hand weapons due to Whirling Axe not coming close to the damage of the auto-attack.
Yes but the point is, it gives the burst that can easily make up just auto attacking the entire time.Espescially if something or you is about to die you have no reason not to burst anyway. Better to finish the fight sooner than later. And axe offhands purpose isnt really damage but more for building adrenaline quickly. It’s as I said earlier though, Adrenaline is built up much more quickly than the CD on bursts.
The Axe trait is not exlcusive to the Burst; it also works with auto-attacks. The biggest advantage of the Axe is also somewhat of a disadvantage; the auto-attack is so good that you penalize yourself far too much if you stop using it in favour of something else – which is why Axe is generally a poor choice for Off-hand weapons due to Whirling Axe not coming close to the damage of the auto-attack.
Just to address the issue of usefulness, the axe’s main hand attack IS its main form of damage. Other weapon sets have their damage and effectiveness spread out but the axe puts it all in one spot (Hundred Blades comes to mind rather quickly). The off-hand attacks are importantly synergized with the main hand as well. Dual Strike grants you a few seconds of Fury to be used in combination with Eviscerate and Whirling Axes hits 15 times which can fill your adrenaline bar immediately when traited. The skills do other things besides damage and they’re balanced around their effectiveness within the intentional build. All but two of the axe main and off-hand skills hit more than once because an axe build relies heavily on bursting adrenaline.
The OP’s point was to say that the loss of adrenaline for the ability of the burst is not a good enough trade-off. In some cases it isn’t but in most cases it is.
Landing an Eviscerate on your target and continuing to spam your chain is an overall increase in DPS as well as a ‘burst’ of damage at a chosen period of time. This is how the skill was intended to work. It wasn’t meant to be a “no-brainer walk in and spam F1” skill (not that you’re saying it was, but some people here would like it to be).
The OP’s point was to say that the loss of adrenaline for the ability of the burst is not a good enough trade-off. In some cases it isn’t but in most cases it is.
I feel the total opposite, In most cases it is not worth it, but in some cases it is. But that also takes into account something I haven’t mentioned before: Healing Surge. I don’t like being caught off-guard and getting the crappiest heal available cause I “wasted” my Adrenaline.
I always figured Axe offhand whirl was pretty good when in a combo field. You can do extra damage or extend the duration of conditions like chill or confuse in an AoE…plus it will fill up your adrenaline bar from empty.
I think the only downfall of the burst is it doesn’t cleave. That’s really only an issue in PvE. The short leap might be worth improving though.
I do hope they improve the bursts though. They’re nice and all, but they could be great!
-Hammer = burst skill is also an evade.
-Sword = burst reflects projectiles for 1 sec.
-Axe = burst leaps further with more adrenaline (current range at 1 strike, 600 range at 2 strikes and 800 range at 3)
-Mace = burst also grants 3sec of stability.
-Greatsword = perhaps add a chance for a knockdown or blowout on the target with this burst.
-Rifle = If you kill/down the target with this burst, cast a 230 range 1 sec fear around the target.
The OP’s point was to say that the loss of adrenaline for the ability of the burst is not a good enough trade-off. In some cases it isn’t but in most cases it is.
I feel the total opposite, In most cases it is not worth it, but in some cases it is. But that also takes into account something I haven’t mentioned before: Healing Surge. I don’t like being caught off-guard and getting the crappiest heal available cause I “wasted” my Adrenaline.
Well its base is higher than the other heals, but I do see your point. Considering all it does is heal for little more than “Mending” without the condition cure and 5 more seconds of a cooldown, its base should probably be a little higher.
Here’s my issue with Healing Surge though: Using it at full adrenaline is like foregoing an entire adrenaline bar, but using it at 0 adrenaline is robbing yourself of >40% heal effectiveness. Something needs to change with that skill. You’re always losing something when using it.
Not in comparison to keeping at full Adrenaline with Berserker’s Power/H. Focus and keep chopping away with your auto-attack, no.
At least, that’s my take on it.
Well granted if your traited for Axe crit damage the burst is well worth it. The average from my axe bursts I tend to hit 12k+ for burst and recover adrenaline in 4-6 seconds less if I just use the healing ability to get max right away after using.
That 12k+ burst is not a regular occurrence…at least not in pve. If a dungeon boss or tougher mob in pve is fully debuffed with 25 stacks of vulnerability, then yeah, a build based around eviscerate will likely hit for 12k+. I run a full beserker build with dual axe/rifle with all exotic power/precision/crit gear except for two of my accessories (I try to stay at least close to 20k hp). 25/25/0/0/20 is my build. The majority of the time, eviscerate is not worth it in pve dungeons unless the mob is already low on hp. I get more benefit from keeping my adrenaline for berserker’s power and hightened focus bonuses with my auto attacks. I agree adrenaline does refill quickly in a proper dual axe build, but in the same time frame as it takes to refill my adrenaline…I can do about as much damage as the average eviscerate…just with my auto attacks (which hit multiple targets instead of just one with eviscerate). Eviscerate just becomes a finisher for low hp targets…which is kind of lack luster for our “burst” axe skill. It would be nice if it hit multiple targets and/or applied vulnerability or protection. That would be worth dumping adrenaline on repeatedly during combat at the expense of berserker’s power+hightened focus.
I think they need to look at making more utilities use adrenaline in some way, or make it so the burst skills have more of a point, even if situation. (like make the greatsword burst do that shockwave looking knockdown mobs can do).
Right now there is too much benefit from just sitting at full adrenaline.
Not in comparison to keeping at full Adrenaline with Berserker’s Power/H. Focus and keep chopping away with your auto-attack, no.
At least, that’s my take on it.
Well granted if your traited for Axe crit damage the burst is well worth it. The average from my axe bursts I tend to hit 12k+ for burst and recover adrenaline in 4-6 seconds less if I just use the healing ability to get max right away after using.
That 12k+ burst is not a regular occurrence…at least not in pve. If a dungeon boss or tougher mob in pve is fully debuffed with 25 stacks of vulnerability, then yeah, a build based around eviscerate will likely hit for 12k+. I run a full beserker build with dual axe/rifle with all exotic power/precision/crit gear except for two of my accessories (I try to stay at least close to 20k hp). 25/25/0/0/20 is my build. The majority of the time, eviscerate is not worth it in pve dungeons unless the mob is already low on hp. I get more benefit from keeping my adrenaline for berserker’s power and hightened focus bonuses with my auto attacks. I agree adrenaline does refill quickly in a proper dual axe build, but in the same time frame as it takes to refill my adrenaline…I can do about as much damage as the average eviscerate…just with my auto attacks (which hit multiple targets instead of just one with eviscerate). Eviscerate just becomes a finisher for low hp targets…which is kind of lack luster for our “burst” axe skill. It would be nice if it hit multiple targets and/or applied vulnerability or protection. That would be worth dumping adrenaline on repeatedly during combat at the expense of berserker’s power+hightened focus.
It certainly is a regular 12k+ for me. 20/20/0/10/20.
6/6 Superior runes of divinity.
Have about 53% crit chance (19% more from traits) and 74% Crit dmg(10% more axe crit dmg)
And to be fair I usually only ever run dungeons with my brother whose uses staff guardian for certain party setups so im always buffed. However the above is not counting food,potions,buffs etc.
However even then when im solo I still burst up there around 12k mark. I dont run dual axes as I use Axe/shield for survival but utilize the axe burst when I get level 3 adrenaline and swap weapons as often as I can; rebuild’s adrenaline fast. I will agree that axe burst isnt worth it when it does not crit. But I crit more often than I dont.
TBH about burst skills I think only having F1 is not enough. Other classes have a much better class mechanic and all we have is just that burst skill which works as a 6th skill? Not a bad 6th skill don’t get me wrong but I think having 2 burst skills that work on the same Adrenalin bar would’ve been awesome like for example the axe should do a strong cleave attack, the great sword doing some kind of bash with your hilt to daze or the longbow should do some kind of AoE fire blast(not a field).
And while they’re at it there should be some tweaking to the F1s as well. Axe could use some more range and maybe a slightly higher % chance to crit(themed to the overall crit power of the axe) or GS should give you more boons(because GS gives awesome boons already).
I feel like I explained a lot of reasons why I would rather keep adrenaline full more often than to use the burst skills.
Rifle
Killshot —> 2.05 ratio at max adrenaline with a 1.75 second charge up time which actually is about 2 seconds since animation is weird depending on class. (stationary)
(about 1.025-1.171 DPS ratio) (Good for those rare surprise kills)
Volley —> .60 × 5 attack ratio with 2.5 second load out time, without being stuck stationary. (1.2 DPS ratio) Better ratio + not stuck using it, and if opponent dodges, your still bound to do some damage + keep all adrenaline to keep adrenaline benefits longer. (better dps and sustain dmg overall)
Axe
Eviscerate —> 2.18 ratio at max adrenaline (ignores weapon power while rifle doesn’t, which is why people can get over 15K killshots and not eviscerate.) Dps time varies based on distance (short distance is faster animation but longer distance can take up to 1-1.5 seconds), but animation is easy to avoid + aegis/blind/dodge effectively make this skill harder to land + Single target. (Only very good perk is the leap, which is also a small give away for using eviscerate)
Chop/Double Chop/Triple Chop —> 0.75/.08/.85 = 2.4 ratio and time to complete full chain is about 2-2.25 seconds but can hit up to 3 targets. Another point is the chop/double chop ratio has very high dps (1.55 ratio in .75 seconds = 2.067 dps ratio) which is easy to accomplish a cut off with axe skill #2. Over all a better dps skill + no lose in adrenaline and hits more than one target.
GS
yea… not even gonna say
Sword
Flurry —> Bleed dmg is actually rather low even when speced full condition (i had a condition warrior which had about 1750+ condition dmg with 11+ stacks of might, and had about 60% bleed duration to equate to about 5k dmg over 3.5-4 seconds) and thats with about 12-13 stacks of bleed from flurry, which is good against high toughness targets but would normally get cleansed immediatly after i finished my flurry which resulted in less dps. The flat dmg ratio is .76 over (about 1.5-2 seconds) which is almost negligible. The great part for it is the 4 second immobilize which can hit up to 3 targets at close proximity.
Sword autoattack —> 1.5-1.75 seconds for the full 3 attacks. added ratio of all 3 attacks is 2.5 which is about 1.429-1.667 dps ratio + the 2 stacks of bleeds. Far higher numbers can be achieved dps wise, but the utility of flurry is notable especially in connection with hundredblades.
Hammer
Earthshaker is great stun with a decent .66 ratio that can hit up to 5 targets. Dps wise its far less usefull than its autoattack or its fierce blow. Even Hammer shock with its .7 ratio and massive range+ get leg specialist for a similar effect to earthshaker as a 1 second immobilize. Only really amazing part to the ability is the leap+stun which sadly the stun doesnt last long enough to get more than 1 attack off for the extra 25% dps increase when traited, and even then its lost 12% from berserkers power.
Mace
Skull crack —> .73 ratio with a half second cast about is pretty decent skill for dps + the stun.
mace autoattack —> 3.2 total ratio with a 2 second cast time = 1.6 dps ratio
and applies weakness
Longbow
Conbustive Shot —> Great burning + huge field for 9 seconds at max adrenaline. Imo its one of the better burst skills, even though its use isn’t really burst rather than large aoe condition + field generation for field combos.
Arcing Arrow supplies a great dps over all with berserkers power and crit builds with a nice 1.45 skill ratio of only .75 second cast time = 1.933 dps ratio
This was my reasoning to use burst skills less. Don’t get me wrong, most burst skills are great in a way, but i feel that our basic attacks and other skills outway the benefits of losing adrenaline from pure dps perspective. Utility wise, I agree that some skills like skull crack and flurry for example, are great in that aspect. Either way, i have my adrenaline bar full most of the time, and hardly ever use burst skills. As warriors being able to swap weapons so frequently (fast hands)[I find it far more efficient dps wise and health wise (adrenal regen + healing surge)] that it makes more sense for me to use both my weapon sets consistently rather than use a burst skill and gimp my dps/hp regen while im on lower adrenaline. Of course adrenaline gain is easy to obtain, but most of the time, I never had to say “Crap, shoulda used that burst skill, coulda won there”.
This was my reasoning to use burst skills less. Don’t get me wrong, most burst skills are great in a way, but i feel that our basic attacks and other skills outway the benefits of losing adrenaline from pure dps perspective. Utility wise, I agree that some skills like skull crack and flurry for example, are great in that aspect. Either way, i have my adrenaline bar full most of the time, and hardly ever use burst skills. As warriors being able to swap weapons so frequently (fast hands)[I find it far more efficient dps wise and health wise (adrenal regen + healing surge)] that it makes more sense for me to use both my weapon sets consistently rather than use a burst skill and gimp my dps/hp regen while im on lower adrenaline. Of course adrenaline gain is easy to obtain, but most of the time, I never had to say “Crap, shoulda used that burst skill, coulda won there”.
The key point here is highlighted in bold. What your build focuses on is what will determine the effectiveness of the burst skill. Most weapon sets and builds do not give an overall DPS positive for bursting adrenaline, but most of them have burst skills that can be useful in situations you would be putting yourself in given that build and set.
I can honestly say the Greatsword is the only burst skill in the game that you can never find a use for outside of PvE trying to combine it with “For Great Justice” and “Signet of Rage” in order to keep a perma-fury going. And even that’s not all that easy.
The problem with using your burst for perma-fury is that you’re giving up the adrenaline specifically for an increase in DPS that you aren’t getting. This is mostly why the GS F1 is being looked-over.
I would still like a 600-1200 leap based on adrenaline level.
Exactly My reason why i think burst skills are kinda’ bizzare in nature because i feel they offer something that normally most warriors don’t want to lose (Dps) for something more utility wise. Other than a few notable burst skills, like flurry for immobilize/longbow for the field + burn/etc., It feels like burst skills (with their lovely 10 second cd, 8 if traited) do not offer dps for the price of using it and instead offer a utility. Sadly, I don’t feel burst skills give that “burst feel”, other than killshot/flurry/eviscerate. But two of those are for dps which can easily be outweighed by their other skills, and flurry is the only skill i ever look as a notable burst skill with potential utility wise, definitely not for its dmg (Due note that 3 targets hit by flurry, is pretty decent dmg spread amongst 3 targets + immob, but it does stick u in HB mode where you can’t move, and its easy to stop the animation)
