Guild Wars 2

Currently, burst skills only go on recharge if the attack connects. If a burst skill is evaded/blocked or misses through blind or you misjudged the range, your adrenaline stays full.

Which is stupid since it makes dodging pretty much ineffective since you can just pretty much spam Earthshaker/Skull Crack until either hits after stability is down and one of the factors that’s making warriors easy mode.

Edit: No Cleasing Ire proc on fail

You do realize that it goes on full cooldown if you miss, which in some cases is even longer than it takes the warrior to get full adrenaline. So it isn’t "spamming" as you say.

And other classes aren’t easy mode? Like thieves "spamming" stealth, guardians "spamming" boons, rangers "spamming" dodge on their sword, etc. Please, if you are going to complain or suggest a change at least come in here informed about the class mechanics.

zencow.3651:

Currently, burst skills only go on recharge if the attack connects. If a burst skill is evaded/blocked or misses through blind or you misjudged the range, your adrenaline stays full.

Which is stupid since it makes dodging pretty much ineffective since you can just pretty much spam Earthshaker/Skull Crack until either hits after stability is down and one of the factors that’s making warriors easy mode.

ok pls remove then the cd on adrenalin skill even if you hit

No, DO IT

It would be a buff in my opinion.

It would make cleansing ire OP

That would be a very complicated change that would require changing the Warrior class mechanic. There are simpler changes that could be performed to fix the problem you’re having with/as a Warrior (such as condition durations). Removing the cooldown would increase damage/CC vastly for some builds and also require the trait line that reduces burst cooldown have to be redesigned (I understand that is likely a joke comment, just pointing it out for the less informed).

One game design example to back the Dev’s reasoning is the Rogue Combo Point/Energy system and Death Knight Runic Power system in WoW, which can refund (either all or partially) those class mechanic resources in the event that an attack does not connect, it just places that attack on cooldown or activates the global cooldown on that ability.

The full cool-down does little to inhibit you from weapon swapping. Does not matter if Skull Crack gets dodged since you can just Earthshaker IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS.

It also lends itself to be an exploit-like way of using Earthshaker is as a mobility tool.

What I would also agree with is a global cool-down on bursts so they are not just weapon based so weapon swapping doesn’t just effectively let you stun someone every 5 seconds with no way to counter.

Thieves spamming stealth, Rangers spamming dodges and Guardians spamming boons all have a costs/risks associated. If you played any of those classes you’d know spamming stealth costs initiative, the ranger dodges have only a small window of evade and guardians don’t maintain boons up for very long due to nerfs since ages ago. What I would agree on changing the thief stealth mechanic making so they get the revealed debuff if their attack from stealth gets blocked/missed/dodged so they can’t just spam backstab till it hits similar to my proposed adrenal change. Similarly Mesmer shatters should go on full CD if they shatter without Illusionary Persona or any illusions up due to kitten ness or because their illusions just got wiped, either way bad play should be punished.

No cooldown and adrenaline based bursts only? Hell no, Skull Crack target to death is not any more skillful. If using a burst skill puts a global cooldown before you can regain adrenaline then sure.

Are you guys really defending bad play?
I think I’ll post in the sPvP section since you’re all obviously terrible warrior fanbois.

Mistro.3059:

One game design example to back the Dev’s reasoning is the Rogue Combo Point/Energy system and Death Knight Runic Power system in WoW, which can refund (either all or partially) those class mechanic resources in the event that an attack does not connect, it just places that attack on cooldown or activates the global cooldown on that ability.

Riiiiight so this is where they got the idea from. Back in Gw1 adrenaline was separate for each individual skill and had a cut-throat nature of, even if you self-cancelled them using escape. Some skills had a adrenaline cooldown on them so you couldn’t create a perma Stun loop. Overall it was much less forgiving to play warrior in Gw1.

killahmayne.9518:

You do realize that it goes on full cooldown if you miss, which in some cases is even longer than it takes the warrior to get full adrenaline. So it isn’t “spamming” as you say.

And other classes aren’t easy mode? Like thieves “spamming” stealth, guardians “spamming” boons, rangers “spamming” dodge on their sword, etc. Please, if you are going to complain or suggest a change at least come in here informed about the class mechanics.

Guardians spamming boons easy mode? Ya Good luck killing anything/catching anything that has a brain and having those boons, get stolen or Corrupted, and being left in the dust 8 out 10 times. Rangers Dodges aren’t nearly as bad as thieves with S/D.

zencow.3651:

Currently, burst skills only go on recharge if the attack connects. If a burst skill is evaded/blocked or misses through blind or you misjudged the range, your adrenaline stays full.

Which is stupid since it makes dodging pretty much ineffective since you can just pretty much spam Earthshaker/Skull Crack until either hits after stability is down and one of the factors that’s making warriors easy mode.

yes we op warrior can spam the might skull crack and the mighty earthshaker if it misses we just have to wait 10 seconds for our skills to recharge!!

seriously there are bursts like what your talking about ( combustion shot and likely earth shaker. other then that every single burst skill has a 10 second recharge if you dodge it.

wildfang.9670:

zencow.3651:

Currently, burst skills only go on recharge if the attack connects. If a burst skill is evaded/blocked or misses through blind or you misjudged the range, your adrenaline stays full.

Which is stupid since it makes dodging pretty much ineffective since you can just pretty much spam Earthshaker/Skull Crack until either hits after stability is down and one of the factors that’s making warriors easy mode.

yes we op warrior can spam the might skull crack and the mighty earthshaker if it misses we just have to wait 10 seconds for our skills to recharge!!

It’s 10 seconds for each set. It basically forces the opponent to dodge/use a counter CC/stun break TWICE EVERY 10 SECONDS just to avoid the Skullcrack & Earth Shaker, apart from which there are several other stuns that could be chained back into the burst skill once it’s recharged. Actual recharge is 8.5 seconds with 20 Discipline or under with higher Discipline.

Notable exploits are spamming Earth Shaker on recharge as a mobility skill between cap points and comboing Combustive Shot into Earth Shaker/Flurry etc before the arrow lands, not a particularly strong combo but being able to double Burst Skill with the same adrenaline bar is mechanically very broken.

Wow, i’ve got to be honest with you. I’ve never even heard of someone trying to use [Earthshaker] purely for movement. That you seem to think its a serious problem makes me wonder about your balance priorities, the fact of the matter is, warriors do get punished for missing their burst skills.

like it’s been mentioned before, if we lost our adrenaline after every time we used our burst, even if we miss, then with cleansing ire we would have one of the best condition removal systems in the game.

if not, well we would still have to deal with the cooldowns on our burst skills, which go on full cooldown whether we hit or not.

honestly i can’t see any good reason for changing the way it works other then to just try and mess with warriors. your argument that it is exploitable, while maybe correct, is also very thin.

Honestly fine with this happening, hell even keep the cooldown, it’d be a buff if anything for most builds.

When the hulk misses a smash. He’s still the hulk, and he’s still angry! Grawr!

zencow.3651:

wildfang.9670:

zencow.3651:

Currently, burst skills only go on recharge if the attack connects. If a burst skill is evaded/blocked or misses through blind or you misjudged the range, your adrenaline stays full.

Which is stupid since it makes dodging pretty much ineffective since you can just pretty much spam Earthshaker/Skull Crack until either hits after stability is down and one of the factors that’s making warriors easy mode.

yes we op warrior can spam the might skull crack and the mighty earthshaker if it misses we just have to wait 10 seconds for our skills to recharge!!

It’s 10 seconds for each set. It basically forces the opponent to dodge/use a counter CC/stun break TWICE EVERY 10 SECONDS just to avoid the Skullcrack & Earth Shaker, apart from which there are several other stuns that could be chained back into the burst skill once it’s recharged. Actual recharge is 8.5 seconds with 20 Discipline or under with higher Discipline.

Notable exploits are spamming Earth Shaker on recharge as a mobility skill between cap points and comboing Combustive Shot into Earth Shaker/Flurry etc before the arrow lands, not a particularly strong combo but being able to double Burst Skill with the same adrenaline bar is mechanically very broken.

You keep driving this point. I daresay nobody has ever seen a earth shaker mobility exploit build that your referring to. If it does exist, dare I say again..it sucks. I replied to you on a earlier post exactly the same as this. IN THE FORUM HISTORY THIS ONE HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED. Along with why 8 vs 8 exists when not many people prefer it over 5 vs 5. There is good reason. You want burst skills nerfed because you don’t like two of them and your not thinking how this will affect every other warrior F1 skill.

Not to mention both of the ones he has issues with are two of the easiest to counter.

How do you people come up with threads like this? This crap of looking for ways to nerf warrior is just getting sad at this point.

Sil.4560:

How do you people come up with threads like this? This crap of looking for ways to nerf warrior is just getting sad at this point.

This one is a buff to condi removal. But noobroids don’t know about it thinking they nerfing us.

Every class has bad play, warriors not any more or less so then most of the other classes so I don’t really understand the comment of us being fanboys when it seems like 75% of all the non-warriors that post in here are either complaining or wanting something nerfed. Which is why warriors react so hostile to people’s stupid “knee-jerk” nerf suggestions because they clearly aren’t seeing the bigger picture.

That and that alot of the things that people have been complaining about have for the most part always been apart of the warrior design, and has only come to the surface since the warriors have been buffed in other areas, after months and months of basking in mediocrity. Which is frustrating because if enough people complain, we will be back to where we were 6-8 months ago again, which is what we don’t want.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Sil.4560:

How do you people come up with threads like this? This crap of looking for ways to nerf warrior is just getting sad at this point.

This one is a buff to condi removal. But noobroids don’t know about it thinking they nerfing us.

Well yeah, using a burst whenever I please into thin air to remove up to three conditions? Yes please. It does show how little they actually know and think about the game’s mechanics though, haha.

People would start to build towards using adrenaline mid battle using the traits that make use of that. You’d be giving the warrior more tricks to use than taking away.

I kitten all over a warrior who was using Hammer + Mace/Shield, just keep an energy sigil on one weapon for swaps and keep dodging Earthshaker with your infinite Endurance and using Shake it Off on Skullcrack, it’s hilariously easy to beat if you’re competent (Which you probably aren’t)

zencow.3651:

Currently, burst skills only go on recharge if the attack connects. If a burst skill is evaded/blocked or misses through blind or you misjudged the range, your adrenaline stays full.

Which is stupid since it makes dodging pretty much ineffective since you can just pretty much spam Earthshaker/Skull Crack until either hits after stability is down and one of the factors that’s making warriors easy mode.

Wait… are you sure we need even more buffs?XD

Chaosbroker.3860:

Not to mention both of the ones he has issues with are two of the easiest to counter.

All bursts are easy to avoid. Those two are the only ones that eventually hit you and leads into a long chain of hurt.

redslion.9675:

zencow.3651:

Currently, burst skills only go on recharge if the attack connects. If a burst skill is evaded/blocked or misses through blind or you misjudged the range, your adrenaline stays full.

Which is stupid since it makes dodging pretty much ineffective since you can just pretty much spam Earthshaker/Skull Crack until either hits after stability is down and one of the factors that’s making warriors easy mode.

Wait… are you sure we need even more buffs?XD

Whoever said I wanted Cleansing Ire to proc if it you missed? If you fail you fail. Warriors need to man up.

Turtle.4130:

I kitten all over a warrior who was using Hammer + Mace/Shield, just keep an energy sigil on one weapon for swaps and keep dodging Earthshaker with your infinite Endurance and using Shake it Off on Skullcrack, it’s hilariously easy to beat if you’re competent (Which you probably aren’t)

Yeah cause a single Warrior vs Warrior fight in WvW is a great reflection on game balance. WvW is so skillful and fun and balanced and this game totally revolves around WvW.

We should all stop sPvPing and go to WvW where we can weapon-swap whenever we want and take skills like Shake it Off and eat Roasted Lotus Roots and never worry about being stunlocked.

Please keep your “I want warrior to stay ez to play” comments here,
Less whiny arguements can be found here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Mechanics-that-are-too-forgiving/first#post2836656

PS: I try to hate every profession equally. Have nice day.

Well, one small alternative nerf would just be to make the burst skills share a cooldown. That way they can’t just whip out a different immediately one if this first one whiffs. That way, you couldn’t do something like earthshaker to catch up to someone, and then switch to mace-shield to do shield bash into skull crack, since skull crack would still be on cooldown for awhile. Of course, such a change wouldn’t matter as much for anyone using a greatsword since that burst skill is never used.

Removing the adrenaline bars on a whiffed burst would probably be too punishing. Adrenaline holding builds would be especially punished by such a thing.

zencow.3651:

Thieves spamming stealth, Rangers spamming dodges and Guardians spamming boons all have a costs/risks associated

I LoLed.

Example of risk on thief.

Backstab nr1/blind = miss (still stealthed),backstab nr2 =blocked(still stealthed)backstab nr3= dodge(still stealthed)backstab nr4 = 10 k crit.Spam anotter stealth since all that time missing/blocking,evaded charged all your initiative to full.Yes seems to have a lot of risk involved.Risk of getting annoyed really fast.

Op credibility meter got lower after stating spamming anything,especially damage reduction,negation skills have (acording to him) risks involved.Like what please?Yopu get a insta death after your protection,evade,invulnerability,stealth,dodge ends ? / Facepalm

Yamsandjams.3267:

Well, one small alternative nerf would just be to make the burst skills share a cooldown. That way they can’t just whip out a different immediately one if this first one whiffs. That way, you couldn’t do something like earthshaker to catch up to someone, and then switch to mace-shield to do shield bash into skull crack, since skull crack would still be on cooldown for awhile. Of course, such a change wouldn’t matter as much for anyone using a greatsword since that burst skill is never used.

Removing the adrenaline bars on a whiffed burst would probably be too punishing. Adrenaline holding builds would be especially punished by such a thing.

Yeah that’s the alternative I also somewhat support but that would be a massive nerf that sends warrior right out of the condi meta since you’d only be to activate Cleansing Ire half as often.

Also I’d still prefer if Warriors were more committed instead of being a win-win situation in the adrenaline-hoarding perspective. If you’re using a burst skill you should be prepared to lose that adrenaline, not have it stay if it misses and think ‘Oh that’s okay, I’ll still benefit from regen/damage/crit’.

Not in the current state.

Skills such as Earthshaker and Eviscerate are already too predictable and easily avoidable.
If this happens then bursts should land faster, instead of failing by design.
I.E. if I hit ES my char must jump here and now, instantly. Not 1-2 second later. Evis has a delay too, and range must be increased as well if adren should empty on fail.

This way bursts would be more player-skill-based and less “when my char feels like listening to my orders”.
Only then I’d agree to make them empty adrenaline.

mini.6018:

zencow.3651:

Thieves spamming stealth, Rangers spamming dodges and Guardians spamming boons all have a costs/risks associated

I LoLed.

Example of risk on thief.

Backstab nr1/blind = miss (still stealthed),backstab nr2 =blocked(still stealthed)backstab nr3= dodge(still stealthed)backstab nr4 = 10 k crit.Spam anotter stealth since all that time missing/blocking,evaded charged all your initiative to full.Yes seems to have a lot of risk involved.Risk of getting annoyed really fast.

Op credibility meter got lower after stating spamming anything,especially damage reduction,negation skills have (acording to him) risks involved.Like what please?Yopu get a insta death after your protection,evade,invulnerability,stealth,dodge ends ? / Facepalm

My suggestion that precisely addresses infinite-back-stab-till-it-lands can be found here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Mechanics-that-are-too-forgiving/first#post2836656

But to maintain stealth you do have to realise spamming Heartseeker through Black Powder is quite initiative extensive to maintain that stealth. In sPvP people are pretty much glad to face backstab thieves and Zerker Stance lets you sit D/P thieves down hard. In WvW if you’re bad you can always use Stealth Disruptor Traps.

Someone else also addresses the shortcomings of the guardian as an offtopic in that thread in a sPvP perspective. WvW isn’t balanced so between the effectiveness of Boon Duration runes and higher boon duration across many skills, protection and retaliation can be kept up permanently to create the tanky scum guardians that we see.

zencow.3651:

Yamsandjams.3267:

Well, one small alternative nerf would just be to make the burst skills share a cooldown. That way they can’t just whip out a different immediately one if this first one whiffs. That way, you couldn’t do something like earthshaker to catch up to someone, and then switch to mace-shield to do shield bash into skull crack, since skull crack would still be on cooldown for awhile. Of course, such a change wouldn’t matter as much for anyone using a greatsword since that burst skill is never used.

Removing the adrenaline bars on a whiffed burst would probably be too punishing. Adrenaline holding builds would be especially punished by such a thing.

Yeah that’s the alternative I also somewhat support but that would be a massive nerf that sends warrior right out of the condi meta since you’d only be to activate Cleansing Ire half as often.

Also I’d still prefer if Warriors were more committed instead of being a win-win situation in the adrenaline-hoarding perspective. If you’re using a burst skill you should be prepared to lose that adrenaline, not have it stay if it misses and think ‘Oh that’s okay, I’ll still benefit from regen/damage/crit’.

Half as often is still every 7-10 seconds. A lot of professions couldn’t get that sort of condi removal potential if they tried. Not to mention cleansing ire is already incredibly strong as it is, especially coupled with berserker’s stance. This sort of change also wouldn’t have any effect on cleansing ire’s passive effect either, although people just seem to constantly discount that.

This sort of change was suggested to prevent a “free burst” sort of deal, where you can just willfully whiff any burst and then swap over for the burst you actually want to use or use as a backup.

Not to mention it also lets you capitalize on 2 cleanses from cleansing ire within 10 seconds. You can chain 2 bursts together if you use burst mastery to get 4 conditions cleansed almost immediately, or even up to 6 conditions cleansed within 5-10 seconds a few seconds if you spend some time to build adrenaline. In fact, if you carefully rotated your bursts and built enough adrenaline in between, you could potentially remove 3 conditions every 3.5 seconds. That’s close to an average of 1 condi cleansed per second. Halving this with such a proposed change doesn’t really sound like it would remove them from any sort of meta. Of course, most fights won’t see that cleansing potential reached, but it’s the best cleansing potential in the game as far as I know.

Outside of cleansing ire, it just lets you do some weird stuff. For instance, you can immobilize someone with a maxed flurry, cancel to rifle, use healing surge for max adrenaline, and then hit them with killshot before the immobilize wears off. more notoriously is the mace-shield to hammer/hammer to mace-shield swap, where you can easily have the opponent stunned for up 10 seconds, and CC’ed for longer than that. Mace-shield alone can inflict a 7 second stun, which would nearly be enough time to use earthshaker afterwards even with the proposed change. Of course, one can always use a stun breaker, but I don’t know any stun breakers that can recharge at the same rate as the stuns.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Half as often is still every 7-10 seconds. A lot of professions couldn’t get that sort of condi removal potential if they tried. Not to mention cleansing ire is already incredibly strong as it is, especially coupled with berserker’s stance. This sort of change also wouldn’t have any effect on cleansing ire’s passive effect either, although people just seem to constantly discount that.

As reasonable as that may sound, the condi-removal potential matters little compared to a moment where you NEED to cleanse. The hard 7-10 seconds cap means that when you really really need that cleanse, you only get a single chance to land that burst skill due to the recharge, and that would be much too hard for even experienced warriors since you become much much more predictable to blind/dodge/block, let alone those who seemed to be heavily object my ‘soft’ nerf. Too much of a nerf imo :P

Red Falcon.8257:

Not in the current state.

Skills such as Earthshaker and Eviscerate are already too predictable and easily avoidable.
If this happens then bursts should land faster, instead of failing by design.
I.E. if I hit ES my char must jump here and now, instantly. Not 1-2 second later. Evis has a delay too, and range must be increased as well if adren should empty on fail.

This way bursts would be more player-skill-based and less “when my char feels like listening to my orders”.
Only then I’d agree to make them empty adrenaline.

It’s only going to get more predictable with the addition of casting windows :P
I do hope cast times get improved once that happens.

zencow.3651:

Yamsandjams.3267:

Half as often is still every 7-10 seconds. A lot of professions couldn’t get that sort of condi removal potential if they tried. Not to mention cleansing ire is already incredibly strong as it is, especially coupled with berserker’s stance. This sort of change also wouldn’t have any effect on cleansing ire’s passive effect either, although people just seem to constantly discount that.

As reasonable as that may sound, the condi-removal potential matters little compared to a moment where you NEED to cleanse. The hard 7-10 seconds cap means that when you really really need that cleanse, you only get a single chance to land that burst skill due to the recharge, and that would be much too hard for even experienced warriors since you become much much more predictable to blind/dodge/block, let alone those who seemed to be heavily object my ‘soft’ nerf. Too much of a nerf imo :P

Isn’t that a counter play to cleansing ire though? If you know the warrior needs to cleanse, you do what needs to be done to bait out and avoid the burst, and then they can’t attempt to cleanse again for awhile. Affording warriors a second chance to get that cleanse doesn’t really seem to respect the counter play, and IMO is something that wasn’t considered in the original design of cleansing ire.

zencow.3651:

It’s only going to get more predictable with the addition of casting windows :P
I do hope cast times get improved once that happens.

Playing Warrior significantly improves your yelling skills.
“I PRESSED F1 TWO HOURS, AGO ARE YOU GONNA JUMP HIM OR WHAT?!?! GREAT NOW THE ENEMY IS GONE, GOOD JOB THERE!!!”

^ LOL so true.

killahmayne.9518:

And other classes aren’t easy mode? Like thieves “spamming” stealth, guardians “spamming” boons, rangers “spamming” dodge on their sword, etc. Please, if you are going to complain or suggest a change at least come in here informed about the class mechanics.

Agreed.

I mean, Anet should make a sweep of all this kind of cheesing once at same time and for everybody.

Spamming mindlessy should never be the answer, in a pvp mode at least.

AndrewSX.3794:

killahmayne.9518:

And other classes aren’t easy mode? Like thieves “spamming” stealth, guardians “spamming” boons, rangers “spamming” dodge on their sword, etc. Please, if you are going to complain or suggest a change at least come in here informed about the class mechanics.

Agreed.

I mean, Anet should make a sweep of all this kind of cheesing once at same time and for everybody.

Spamming mindlessy should never be the answer, in a pvp mode at least.

The thing is, warrior is the only class are strong enough to not have to spam.

Every other profession has spam. The meta build for every other profession is are reliant on spam either totally or to some small extent. S/D thieves, necroes marks, aoes and scepter auto, engies nades/bombs down to the lowest fresh air ele have to unload all their arcane utilities and kitchen sink to down someone.

zencow.3651:

redslion.9675:

zencow.3651:

Currently, burst skills only go on recharge if the attack connects. If a burst skill is evaded/blocked or misses through blind or you misjudged the range, your adrenaline stays full.

Which is stupid since it makes dodging pretty much ineffective since you can just pretty much spam Earthshaker/Skull Crack until either hits after stability is down and one of the factors that’s making warriors easy mode.

Wait… are you sure we need even more buffs?XD

Whoever said I wanted Cleansing Ire to proc if it you missed? If you fail you fail. Warriors need to man up.

Wait… MANNING up?

Well, I didn’t see many warrs moaning about this idea. Even if some bursts are designed to fail. Why do you think we are all spoiled children? I play warrior because I like the flavor. I can’t play Eles, because they talk too much (toons always blubbering about elements… shut up!XD). I can’t force myself to like guardians, thieves or mesmers. And engies bore me (I use one in pve, but I always felt like I had more fun crafting builds with warriors, even before the buffs).

And call me a noob, but I like tanky builds with GS and LB. And LB burst can’t miss. So change what you like, I don’t care.

And then you’d have to reword the whole trait. And maybe make dodges harder to obtain.

And about traits benefitting from a full adrenaline bar… nobody uses them anymore. Too far in traitlines that are either rarely used (Berserker’s Power) or in outclassed by much more useful stuff (Heightened Focus, which is outclassed by Burst Mastery) The only one used is Adrenal Health, and no warrior cares about it.

people can’t dodge earthshaker now, cute.