Guild Wars 2

Ok, just so we get this out of the way, some disclosure:

I’m a hopeless fanatic about one handed swords, single, dual wield, sword and board, it doesn’t matter, i love swords. I’ve played with them since i was big enough to lift one, i’ve sparred with friends and family for years, and i’ve studied their use and forms in multiple cultures as a past time.

As such, I do not feel that swords are properly portrayed in GW2.

Some things are done well, such as the Burst skill, that’s ok, but a little under powered (yes, yes… i know, “balance”, it has immobilize, but that’s barely effective in PvP), and the leaping 2 skill is nice, as is the counter attack/adrenaline 5 skill.

Its the hamstring and thrown weapon (3 & 4) that i dislike, but also the fact that the main attack is so poor compared to even the Axe, but tries to compensate with bleeds (yet another illusion of “balance” since that is also not effective in PvP).

I just think that Swords should have some different skills, and introduce Daggers to the Warrior class.

Let the Daggers have the bleeds, hamstring, throw/yank attacks.

Here’s my idea:
Daggers: 1 Stab/Slice/Cut (the last two doing some kind of bleed), 2 backflip & throw (character does a jump backward and throws a dagger in the opposite direction while in mid air), 3 Hamstring, 4 throw/yank, 5 disarm (not a literal disarm, but makes the target unable to attack for 5 seconds) OR alternate: 5 find weakness (causes vulnerability), F1 throw multiple daggers (more daggers thrown depending on tiers of adrenaline)

Swords: 1 as is but without bleeds and a little more damage (ok, maybe some kind of condition like weakness), 2 as is, 3 a quick three swing flurry that adds confusion or interrupt (much like it would be in real life), 4 a spin or flourish attack (similar to the Axe 2 skill, maybe with a small knockback. Small, mind you…), 5 as is. F1 as is but maybe just a little stronger.

I’ve tried running the numbers before, and even with bleeds and other effects, swords just don’t match up to what Axes can do, they are a weak link in the warrior’s arsenal.

I think a change is needed for swords to be useful for more than pve or against those unlucky enough not to have a condition removal. Also, i think that daggers as a throwing based weapon would be a great addition to the Warrior. Sword and Dagger is a real fighting style in Europe and Japan, so i see no reason for daggers to have been excluded.

I know some people have made some pretty nice bleed builds for sword+sword, but i still think those same builds could be made with Dagger instead, and let sword be a more powerful player upfront, rather than a “hit it and wait” weapon. I’m not talking insta-gib, merely feasible.

I may be showing my ignorance, i’m sure there are talented pvpers who have made swords work, but i’m not one of them and i’m just tired of the bleed play style.

Why do Warriors even have a bleed build? Isn’t that what Thieves are for?

Why do thieves even have a bleed build? Isnt that what Necromancers are for?

solanu.3784:

Why do thieves even have a bleed build? Isnt that what Necromancers are for?

Not sure if trolling or just VERY simple minded lol….

I find sword 1 – 3 to be perfectly build if you combo em right, I never bothered with dual swords as sword off hand sure needs a lot of love, over all I say giving us daggers is always an option, specially if you make them a defensive weapon, but honestly I wouldn’t care much as shields win all the way !

yeah, i’ve actually JUST started getting back into Sword+Shield, making a Vitality/Toughness build in the traits, and i’m actually loving it much more than i used to. Frame of mind i suppose.

I enjoy the Sword for mobility, Shield for reflective blocking and interrupts, add a Hammer to the mix for field control and it’s great.

I’ve also started tampering with a trait mix that lets me do extra damage to confused (whatever it’s called) enemies where i hit them with the shield bash then switch to GS for HB. Not noticing great amounts of dps there, but i’m not built around GS anyway, use it more for additional mobility.

Sorry mate but I can’t agree with you. 4th skill of the sword is what does a lot of damage.

I’m using swords, my gear is half power pres +crit and half is cond, and that skill does the most damage for me. Normal around 2500 and crits around 4300-4800.
My auto attack does 1500 – 2300 crit and if you count in bleed damage it’s pretty nice damage overall.

And I’m having a lot of fun with it

Stron Magnesson.8017:

Here’s my idea:
Daggers: 1 Stab/Slice/Cut (the last two doing some kind of bleed), 2 backflip & throw (character does a jump backward and throws a dagger in the opposite direction while in mid air), 3 Hamstring, 4 throw/yank, 5 disarm (not a literal disarm, but makes the target unable to attack for 5 seconds) OR alternate: 5 find weakness (causes vulnerability), F1 throw multiple daggers (more daggers thrown depending on tiers of adrenaline)

Warriors aren’t really the type to be doing backflips on a battlefield. That’s what thieves and characters not carrying around 60 pounds of steel armor do. ANet approaches profession development from more than just a numbers perspective; to them, a profession needs to feel and look right, in addition to playing right. Having giant, steel-clad warriors running around, back-flipping doesn’t make sense. Granted, having them combat-rolling around everywhere doesn’t make a ton of sense either. Also, skills that provide some kind of evasion-and-damage mechanic belong to either the Ranger or the Thief. We warriors can’t have everything!

Stron Magnesson.8017:

Swords: 1 as is but without bleeds and a little more damage (ok, maybe some kind of condition like weakness), 2 as is, 3 a quick three swing flurry that adds confusion or interrupt (much like it would be in real life), 4 a spin or flourish attack (similar to the Axe 2 skill, maybe with a small knockback. Small, mind you…), 5 as is. F1 as is but maybe just a little stronger.

ANet’s focus on weapons is pretty simple: Sword has mid attack-speed and mid-damage, compared to the ax (faster attack speed, less damage) and the mace (slower attack speed, more damage). Swords for Guild Wars have always been about bleeding. As such, ANet kept that theme. Regarding skill 3, warriors aren’t about confusion, but have some nice daze/stun abilities on the mace. Adding a similar mechanic onto swords would depreciate the mace. Regarding skill 4, sword is much more focused on a single enemy than ax, so giving them some kind of multi-target spin attack would depreciate the ax.

Stron Magnesson.8017:

I’ve tried running the numbers before, and even with bleeds and other effects, swords just don’t match up to what Axes can do, they are a weak link in the warrior’s arsenal.

Sword provides much better mobility and initiation than ax does. Also, sword 5 provides a nice defense skill, whereas ax is about pure offense. Sword is a more focused weapon, giving up some multi-target abilities to focus a single foe down; their 4-skill, 2-skill, burst-skill and even 5-skill all support this. The strength of the sword comes from applying consistent stacks of bleeds, having superior initiation and single-target focus to the ax or mace, and combining some defense with offense. Compare this to the ax, which is about pure offense, or the mace, which is the inverse of sword: some offense with solid defense/control.

Stron Magnesson.8017:

…Sword and Dagger is a real fighting style in Europe and Japan, so i see no reason for daggers to have been excluded…

I agree, but consider what that dagger was primarily used for: defense. A primary example is the main gauche for fencing, used almost exclusively for providing defense while allowing you to focus your rapier on offense. With the exception of Musashi, katana was paired with wakasashi to allow the wakasashi for point-defense. I think Musashi would be quite pleased with double-sword in this game, actually. Except for the whole throwing-your-sword deal…

Regardless, the trick becomes how do you balance this new weapon set. Since we already have off-hand sword for a combo of offense/defense, off-hand ax for pure offense, and off-hand mace for pretty much pure control (with damage, of course).

If we were to get dagger added, I would push for it to be off-hand only. We run into the above problem though, and dagger feels like sword off-hand. I actually think that sword off-hand is supposed to represent a short-sword/dagger “traditional” role, as evident by the throwing mechanic and the parry/riposte mechanic.

Stron Magnesson.8017:

Why do Warriors even have a bleed build? Isn’t that what Thieves are for?

If warriors had a stealth-oriented build, I would agree with you. Bleeds are too general.

Overall, I can definitely see where you’re coming from, but I think that the sword on warrior is pretty well balanced as is. Adding, perhaps, some dagger skins would be nice for appearance, but I don’t think the dagger as a completely new weapon properly fits into the warrior’s already impressive arsenal.

Definitely an interesting idea, though. And a great way to look at the game, and try to figure out how/why ANet decided to balance certain weapons, combinations, and themes.

Thanks to everyone for not flaming me, as i’m actually very open to learning on this topic.

I knew as soon as i wrote “backflip” that it was wrong, i’ll edit that out. I’m playing a warrior currently that looks like a friggin space marine, seeing him do a backflip would induce too much giggling to take seriously.

I’ve tried running the numbers, but i haven’t taken into account Vulnerability and bleeds. Has anybody run the numbers with Vuln accounted for? I’m really hesitant to calculate bleeds in because conditions are so easy to remove, only in PvE have i seen a bleed last for any duration. I know there are PvP bleed builds, i just don’t understand how they are successful.

Here’s the numbers i’ve run, base damage only:

Mace: 2395
Sword: 2596 (8036 with bleeds)
Axe: 4249

So i know that if you get conditions in there that these numbers will play out differently, i’m just not sure how to calculate Vulnerability in, or how reliable conditions are.

Any help there would be awesome.

Stron Magnesson.8017:

I know there are PvP bleed builds, i just don’t understand how they are successful.

Short answer: They’re not.

Sword/ whatever just isn’t viable in TPvP (only pvp that matters when talking about viability/balance).

(For the most part warriors as a whole aren’t viable, but that’s a different subject.)

Braxxus.2904:

Sword/ whatever just isn’t viable in TPvP (only pvp that matters when talking about viability/balance).

Interesting, i would have thought that PvP would be the same across the board (hint: i’m not a pvper, in case you can’t tell) :P

Are sPvP and tPvP basically the same? And how do swords do in WvWvW? The sPvP doesn’t interest me much, i’ve not done tournaments, and world doesn’t fare well with my video card (i may be installing a better one here shortly).

@Stron
Well foremost ANet said very early on, going with the whole desire to be an “esport” that balance would be at the 5v5 level for tourney play since that would be the esport model.

SPvP is affectionately referred to as “follow the zerg”. Many things are viable in 8v8 hotjoin that are not viable in actual competitive play where every spot on the 5v5 team must perform at top function in whatever role(s) they are there for.

WvWvW was specifically called out by ANet long ago as never meant to be balanced. It’s also heavily influenced by gear/levels of the enemies and is even more a “follow the zerg” mode as SPvP is (obviously). It’s fun though, but will never ever be balanced.

TLDR: With the goal of being an esport, and the 5v5 tourney play being the esport model for the pvp in the game that is what balance occurs around.