Guild Wars 2

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i see. my bad.

i should have wrote “control effects” which is the proper term in the game.

yes, berserker stance merely makes the warrior immune to conditions, new conditions cannot be applied. though i am not sure if already applied conditions will hurt or hinder the warrior or not. probably not.

however, a warrior who does not have decent armor and health will still drop quickly under direct damage even with berserker stance activated.

various control effects will still toss and flung the warrior about.

Already applied conditions will keep ticking and are at full potential even during Berserker Stance. BS just prevents any new ones.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Rolyate.6753:

Cleansing Ire is very easy to counter, the problem comes with berserker stance. It prevents counterplay.

If it were made a shorter duration with a shorter cooldown, it would reduce the period of invulnerability.

berserker stance only grants immunity to conditions, the warrior will still die to direct damage and still can be affected by crowd control skills.

counter play for berserker stance:
- direct damage
- crowd control

cleansing ire is balanced by the way.

The only way cleansing ire would be balanced is if it actually required you to hit someone for it to cleanse condis on Longbow. Say, if someone dodges the initial hit of combustive shot, the warrior should still have those condis on him. Also, adrenaline should drain if you miss the attack, period. You shouldn’t be able to swap to your next weapon set and try again.

That is the main reason why longbow is so necessary in spvp. Sure the fire field is nice, but to be able to clear 2-3 condis on demand without touching anything, is extremely strong. Adrenaline is not hard to come by at all.

You have to understand some classes can only clear that number of condis every 45-60s while a warrior can do that approximately every 8s.

This is also bumped up by the fact that warriors naturally have the highest life pool than any other class and since their base attacks hit hard, they can build like tanks, have a huge life pool, and still dish out damage that’s not far from a zerker.

Take Soldier’s ammy axe/sw+lb for example. Just eviscerate alone…which is just a single skill of the weapon set…I can eviscerate most people for 7-8k. That’s 8k with the following BASE stats (not even might stacked yet): 2300 power, 3100 armor, 25000 hp. Tell me what other class can dish that much damage out with a single attack while having those stats? Along with the ability to cleanse condis easily with LB even if eviscerate doesn’t land is just silly.

It is the reason why warriors are abused nowadays – they are wayyy too forgiving. You can play like crap and get away with it most of the time against mediocre players. The amount of focus and precision needed to fight a decent warrior vs being a warrior is extremely skewed.

Oh, and yes I play warrior a lot. But compared to me playing a thief successfully, I can play a warrior while watching a movie.

wait for combustive shot, and then hit him with condition bomb. problem solved. As for other bursts, dodge them.

Also for berserker stance, just kite for a few seconds using skills which have physical damage components.

Cover conditions, problem solved. While I am not against combustive shot need to hit proc CI. That’s not going to help Necros, period. And this is what this thread is really about isn’kitten necro vs warrior.

Necro is pretty much the only class that has to face tank warrior, when we cleanse their condition or when Zerker stance comes up. Every other class has other defensive mechanism, either through boon, stealth, mobility + kiting.

The real complain about warrior is not weak against condition is really only apply to necros.

OP, seems like you had a hard time vs. a warrior and come here to try to achieve what you couldn’t 1 vs. 1 from within? like you said, not everyone uses cleansing Ire, and even if does, people might have other goal to not expand them right away for just condition removal.

Even with Cleansing Ire/Zerker stance you can get overloaded with conditions. If you add a cooldown (which I can understand 10 seconds). It needs to be changed to remove conditions before the hit so it can work with any weapon while blinded

Cleansing ire is not fine, it needs to also become an aoe condition cleanse for any party members in a 1200 range also, and it needs to make a fiery lighting Ice field covered in darkness since we lack condition fields

Grok Krog.9581:

Even with Cleansing Ire/Zerker stance you can get overloaded with conditions. If you add a cooldown (which I can understand 10 seconds). It needs to be changed to remove conditions before the hit so it can work with any weapon while blinded

This.

Not to mention it only clears 3 conditions at max Adrenaline(wich in most times you don’t have it fulled max), and that is 8 sec, cd so a condi class can reapply the conditions in 2 sec, so yeah i do agree that “It needs to be changed to remove conditions before the hit”

Its funny people still think CI is OPed. I used to think CI is pretty decent. Until I play a thief. The “Adept” trait: “Shadow’s Embrace”. Coupled with how often I go in stealth, this is the best condition removal trait in the game. No wonder thief doesn’t bother with any other condition removal skills.

Shadow’s Embrace, remove 1 condition when the thief go into stealth, another one 3 sec later. So 2 every 3 sec, this rate is much better than the CI. The best part is, when thief is in stealth its unlikely to get new conditions and can open with a devastating attack.

I wonder why people don’t complain about that?

bigmonto.4215:

Its funny people still think CI is OPed. I used to think CI is pretty decent. Until I play a thief. The “Adept” trait: “Shadow’s Embrace”. Coupled with how often I go in stealth, this is the best condition removal trait in the game. No wonder thief doesn’t bother with any other condition removal skills.

Shadow’s Embrace, remove 1 condition when the thief go into stealth, another one 3 sec later. So 2 every 3 sec, this rate is much better than the CI. The best part is, when thief is in stealth its unlikely to get new conditions and can open with a devastating attack.

That’s 2 conditions every 3 seconds if you are not attacking your enemy.

And unless you’re lucky, that might just result in your spending 3 seconds taking damage from 20+ stacks of bleed.

I wonder why people don’t complain about that?

Because Thieves don’t get to reduce the duration of Chill, Crippled and Immobilize by an amount that almost makes them irrelevant? You can easily get around Shadow’s Embrace by forcing it to cleanse a non-damaging condition.

bigmonto.4215:

Its funny people still think CI is OPed. I used to think CI is pretty decent. Until I play a thief. The “Adept” trait: “Shadow’s Embrace”. Coupled with how often I go in stealth, this is the best condition removal trait in the game. No wonder thief doesn’t bother with any other condition removal skills.

Shadow’s Embrace, remove 1 condition when the thief go into stealth, another one 3 sec later. So 2 every 3 sec, this rate is much better than the CI. The best part is, when thief is in stealth its unlikely to get new conditions and can open with a devastating attack.

I wonder why people don’t complain about that?

Quiet now~ :P

Actually, people do complain about that (but it also in conjunction with Shadow’s Rejuvenation and usually Meld with Shadows which makes all stealth 4 seconds (or longer if you go into utilities) which you missed. By themselves, they are fine; when traited all together…OP.) Basically Shadow Arts in the Thief trait line is so powerful it is basically the go-to required for any spec. It is much like how Dogged March/Cleansing Ire has become for the Warrior.

But since this is ANet, it takes months and months for them to make any significant balance change. The adaptation of ANet to skill balance has slowed tremendously to the meta (my guess is the balance team was focused heavily on the grand master tier new traits, ferocity change and new gear stats – which not so surprisingly – only made the meta far more condition favored).

its not CI thats op, no ones going to complain about a gs mace/shield warrior with CI, it’s the fact that combustive shot can’t be reliably stopped that’s what makes CI seem op.

fix cumbustive shot and CI would be fine.

Olba.5376:

bigmonto.4215:

Its funny people still think CI is OPed. I used to think CI is pretty decent. Until I play a thief. The “Adept” trait: “Shadow’s Embrace”. Coupled with how often I go in stealth, this is the best condition removal trait in the game. No wonder thief doesn’t bother with any other condition removal skills.

Shadow’s Embrace, remove 1 condition when the thief go into stealth, another one 3 sec later. So 2 every 3 sec, this rate is much better than the CI. The best part is, when thief is in stealth its unlikely to get new conditions and can open with a devastating attack.

That’s 2 conditions every 3 seconds if you are not attacking your enemy.

And unless you’re lucky, that might just result in your spending 3 seconds taking damage from 20+ stacks of bleed.

I wonder why people don’t complain about that?

Because Thieves don’t get to reduce the duration of Chill, Crippled and Immobilize by an amount that almost makes them irrelevant? You can easily get around Shadow’s Embrace by forcing it to cleanse a non-damaging condition.

But I can open with a big attack on the 4th sec right? A 9k backstab, or 5k bleed every 4 sec is not bad even if I am not attacking during stealth.

Regarding the reduction on condition duration, most condition build get at least +36% duration food (~ 1.5s a piece on tp). Plus Cover condition also works for CI.

And once you are in stealth you are less likely to get more cover conditions.

The bottom line is after seeing what the thief can do, I don’t even think CI with compulsive shot is OPed. After all you are making certain trade-offs by going to LB especially for power builds.

^^ That IS the problem. With Thief (Shadow Arts) designed right now the way it is and a heavy condition meta, there is no other real balance that can be achieved game wide. From time to time, I am one of those dirty ganking WvW solo/havoc group roaming thieves

Cleansing Ire just pales in comparison to Shadow Arts.

TL;DR I would try to leave the comparison to Thief condition clearing out of any discussion for justification for/against balance discussions as Shadow Arts is that broken OP. Let’s put it this way, how often can a Warrior use Cleansing Ire (once per F1 cooldown) compared to how often can a Thief stealth?

bigmonto.4215:

But I can open with a big attack on the 4th sec right? A 9k backstab, or 5k bleed every 4 sec is not bad even if I am not attacking during stealth.

You’re free to do that, but that makes you a very easily countered enemy, since your attacks are all on an exact clock.

Regarding the reduction on condition duration, most condition build get at least +36% duration food (~ 1.5s a piece on tp). Plus Cover condition also works for CI.

Yeah, I was talking more about without any foods. In case you missed with, there’s tons of warrior running around with Rune of Melandru (-25% condition duration) and Dogged March (-33% chill/immobilize/cripple). If you want to add foods to that, it’s an extra -40% for -98% on chill/immobilize/cripple, which is enough to make them virtually immune to those.

And there’s always blind, which your Thief isn’t going to remove either, since you’re talking about sitting in Stealth for condi cleansing. That leaves a Warrior with 4 conditions less to potentially cleanse than a Thief. And that means a lot.

That and there’s the simple fact that people are already too busy kittening about stealth, Backstab, Sneak Attack and Shadow’s Rejuvenation to care about Shadow’s Embrace.

The bottom line is after seeing what the thief can do, I don’t even think CI with compulsive shot is OPed. After all you are making certain trade-offs by going to LB especially for power builds.

Longbow can still do some pretty mean damage on a Warrior. There’s a reason why Rune of Strength became instantly popular in sPvP after it was changed. A Hammer/Longbow Warrior pumps out Might from every orifice in their body by doing pretty much anything at all. Since you know, Combustive Shot is a Fire Field and Earth Shaker and Arcing Arrow are Blast Finishers. Add in a Sigil of Battle and that’s 9 stacks of Might for 29s on a 10s cooldown.

And even without that, Arcing Arrow still has a 2.0 coefficient, which is what a 1-bar Eviscerate does.

So you just argue for the sake of arguing?

You know full well that just because you can sit in stealth for 4 sec, it does not mean you have to every single time. You might not get 2 conditions you have to remove. You can always Stealth → backstab → stealth a few sec later.

This renders your argument on being “easily countered” or not removing blind moot.

The only thing warrior has more than thief in terms of – duration is -33% on these 3 conditions. Both runes and food are available to thief. And -98% is not -98% if the opponent uses +40% food + rune. Its more like -50%. Trust me -50% is still a long enough time and many cases worth a cleanse.

I play both a condition warrior with +duration food and a power based warrior with Hoelbrak rune + -duration food to know that Dogged march doesn’t do too much.

Yes LB is better with might stack, but stop mentioning ham-bow. We all know its good build to fight on point but not good anywhere else. The LB is used for CI + cover the point with Fire field. The slowness of Arcing Arrow is more used as a blast finisher for the Fire field than anything else. ham-bow in tPvP aren’t damage dealers. And if you play solo, you are better off playing shout heal conditional or cele-axe bow. LB is much better for conditional warriors though.

But that’s not the issue we are discussing. Even if CI hits every single time it still not nearly as good as thiet’s 4 sec stealth with Shadow’s Embrace. And Artaz.3819 is right if stealth is cap at 3 sec, where if you want the 2nd condi-cleanse you cannot attack out of stealth, this sound much more reasonable.