Guild Wars 2

Poplolita.2638:

Simon.3794:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I never stated “Cleansing Ire alone is enough defense agaisnt conditions” I said it was the only cleanse you needed because it is just that strong.
Even without Berserker Stance, Cleansing Ire is still quite strong.

“it was the only cleanse you needed because it is just that strong” = “Cleansing Ire alone is enough defense agaisnt conditions” is it that difficult to understand.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Berserker Stance doesn’t cleanse conditions. Ever.

yea, it doesn’t but it prevent condition applications so you will have less condition to cleans, also it gives you adrenaline so you can cleans more condition with cleansing ire, without it ( or other adrenaline gaining skills which are all useless and bad) its impossible to keep up full adrenaline for 3 condition cleanse, unless ofc if you wait a long time to use burst skills. a lot of time you will be using burst skill with only level 1 adrenaline causing one condition removal, some of the times you will have no adrenaline to use your burst skills.

talking about adrenaline, heres a quote shows how little you know about this class.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Adrenaline as a weakness…lol! There’s nothing a Warrior has to do to keep his adrenaline up. He just fights and it happens. Necromancers and Mesmers, now they have resource management as a weakness. Warriors? Yeah right.

which brings me to one of my favorite quote from another game’s forum

it amazes me how someone can be so condescending towards others, when he himself has not tried the build yet, nor does he know anything about how the associated-skills work.

i seriously don’t know why you are still arguing. i already proved how wrong you are before this comment.

You did not proove him wrong. When you start comparing other class ressource management with adrenaline, it appears less and less of a weakness, and more like a strenght. Try playing other professions, you’ll see.

it amazes me how someone can be so condescending towards others, when he himself has not tried the build yet, nor does he know anything about how the associated-skills work.

i did prove his ORIGINAL point wrong, which is cleansing ire is op and strong enough on it’s own to prevent a warrior from being overloaded by condition

this is just a side point.

maybe you should read the thread before posting.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Here’s the way I see thing happening if Cleansing Ire gets an ICD on cleanse:

1. Warriors become less popular for a while as people whine about how they have no cleansing options.

2. Some people adapt, realizing that they do, in fact, have cleansing options.

3. Several months later, the new “meta” builds incorporate some alternative cleansing options or admit to having a weakness to conditions.

4. People realize that actual weaknesses should exist in every build. If they don’t have actual weaknesses, they shouldn’t have actual strengths either.

Granted, step 4 will never happen with the vast majority, because they always want their own build to not have weaknesses.

But, given that the following exist for Warrior condition cleansing, but are never used because CI makes them unnecessary, saying “no other options” is flat-out false.

Charge: removes Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize
Mending (3 conditions removed, 20 second cooldown)
Signet of Stamina (all conditions removed, 45 second cooldown, useful passive to let you avoid applications more often)
“Shake it Off!” (1 condition removed AoE, stunbreak, 20 second cooldown, will remove Fear+1 condition)
Restorative Strength (activating a heal skill removes cripple, chill, immobilize, and weakness, applies before healing skill’s effects, so Mending removes those 4 plus 3 others)
Shrug it Off (automatic “Shake it Off!” when affected by 2 or more conditions)
Quick Breathing (Warhorn skills convert a condition to a boon)

If you’re that worried about conditions, you have options aplenty. Heck, 2 points in the Power line + Mending gives you a potential 7 condition cleanse on a 20 second cooldown. That’s insanely efficient.

it is funny because you weren’t even there when warriors were bad nor when warriors received their buffs, you just assume that and question the inability of top players’ judgement towards warrior from the past,
while pulling some random skills, pretend like they work that way and thinking no one has ever tested these things and tried to make them viable anyhow,
only shows how low tier you are.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

But, given that the following exist for Warrior condition cleansing, but are never used because CI makes them unnecessary, saying “no other options” is flat-out false.

Charge: removes Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize
Mending (3 conditions removed, 20 second cooldown)
Signet of Stamina (all conditions removed, 45 second cooldown, useful passive to let you avoid applications more often)
“Shake it Off!” (1 condition removed AoE, stunbreak, 20 second cooldown, will remove Fear+1 condition)
Restorative Strength (activating a heal skill removes cripple, chill, immobilize, and weakness, applies before healing skill’s effects, so Mending removes those 4 plus 3 others)
Shrug it Off (automatic “Shake it Off!” when affected by 2 or more conditions)
Quick Breathing (Warhorn skills convert a condition to a boon)

If you’re that worried about conditions, you have options aplenty. Heck, 2 points in the Power line + Mending gives you a potential 7 condition cleanse on a 20 second cooldown. That’s insanely efficient.

Seriously don’t act like you know what you are talking about.

Every single one are commonly used by warriors other than Mending, and Restorative Strength. Why? because the raw heal from Mending really sucks. In fact the condition build I used also uses “Shrug it Off” + “Shake it Off!”, and often warrior will use trooper rune just for that additional conditional clear on shout. Our biggest threat is still conditions even with all these. So yeah conditions seems like our weakness based on my play experience.

You can say that warrior have better condition removal options due to CI compare to other classes, but that doesn’t mean our weakness is not conditions. It just means we are a lot more dependent on being able to remove these conditions to get to the enemy to attack them.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

1. Charge: removes Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize
2. Mending (3 conditions removed, 20 second cooldown)
3. Signet of Stamina (all conditions removed, 45 second cooldown, useful passive to let you avoid applications more often)
4. “Shake it Off!” (1 condition removed AoE, stunbreak, 20 second cooldown, will remove Fear+1 condition)
5. Restorative Strength (activating a heal skill removes cripple, chill, immobilize, and weakness, applies before healing skill’s effects, so Mending removes those 4 plus 3 others)
6. Shrug it Off (automatic “Shake it Off!” when affected by 2 or more conditions)
7. Quick Breathing (Warhorn skills convert a condition to a boon)

1. Which doesn’t help you at all with reducing damage. In fact, it’s far more likely that you’ll end up having to use Charge to take away Chill/Immobilize/Cripple to ensure that your other cleanse takes away the 20+ stacks of bleed on you.
2. Mending is a healing skill. Even if you successfully use it to cleanse all of the damaging conditions, this means that your enemy now has 20 seconds to beat you to death while you’re helpless against their conditions.
3. Signet of Stamina has a very long cooldown, thus making it impractical.
4. Shake it Off only cleanses one condition. That means that unless you want to risk wasting it on something like Immobilize or Cripple, you’re going to have to remove those first.
5. Are you serious? Restorative Strength has a nice functionality in that it allows you to set up a condi cleanse to remove the damaging conditions. It’s not functional as anything else.
6. Since Shrug it Off is a passive trait, it’s ridiculously easy for an enemy to force it into cooldown.
7. Quick Breathing is about the best we get, but that forces you to use X/Warhorn and 20 points into Tactics.

The only decent option that a Warrior has is Quick Breathing. The thing is, Quick Breathing forces you into a similar situation as CI: You have to use a specific weapon (Longbow for CI, Warhorn for QB) and it forces 20 points into a trait line (Defense, Tactics). The issue is that Tactics is a far inferior traitline in comparison to Defense. The Vitality that it offers doesn’t help, considering that Warriors have a high base health, the minor traits are notorious for being some of the kittentiest in the game and even the Boon Duration isn’t that useful since Warrior is more about long duration and few reapplications to begin with.

Simon.3794:

it is funny because you weren’t even there when warriors were bad nor when warriors received their buffs, you just assume that and question the inability of top players’ judgement towards warrior from the past,
while pulling some random skills, pretend like they work that way and thinking no one has ever tested these things and tried to make them viable anyhow,
only shows how low tier you are.

It’s funny that you assume someone who has been playing since beta weekend 2 knows nothing about where Warriors were compared to where they are now. They had a lot more buffs than even you seem to remember, or did you not know that Hammer actually got a load of buffs since launch because it was considered too weak? They rolled some of those buffs back recently.

Those skills and traits are not “random.” They are cleansing options that Warriors (and only Warriors) have and, when I do play my Warrior, are plenty to keep me from feeling weak to conditions. But, I’ve only seen Cleansing Ire used and once (just once) Shake it Off by others. Why? Because it is so strong, they don’t even have to really spec into defense against their designed weakness.

If Warriors had strong condition cleansing ability with heavy investment, I’d be fine with it. If you spec heavily into doing something, you should be good at it. The issue is that they need 4 points in Defense (Dogged March and Cleansing Ire) and they’re set. They have great condition resistance without using a single cleanse skill.

I have an incredibly difficult time believing that Warriors right now are actually weak to conditions. They have multiple ways of clearing or reducing snares (the ones that are actually problematic for melee builds) without even getting into the generic condition defense.

Still flogging this horse?

As others have said, combustive shot on the longbow is the issue and not CI. Fix Combustive shot and CI is fine.

In WvW you do not need just DM and CI and you are set….. sure it helps but there are plenty of WvW scenarios where you will struggle with just those. There is more to GW2 than spvp and until they decide to do different trait lines for each format then we end up with some compromises.

Do you even read back your posts. They are full of contradictions within a few sentences. That normally happens when someone is grasping and grasping and grasping….

You say the following:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The issue is that they need 4 points in Defense (Dogged March and Cleansing Ire) and they’re set. They have great condition resistance without using a single cleanse skill.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

They have multiple ways of clearing or reducing snares (the ones that are actually problematic for melee builds) without even getting into the generic condition defense.

So I assume your usage of the term “multiple ways” is just DM and CI then given you state they only need that to be successful. If you actually mean other tools then I guess your 1st quote is null and void. I will let you choose.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Simon.3794:

it is funny because you weren’t even there when warriors were bad nor when warriors received their buffs, you just assume that and question the inability of top players’ judgement towards warrior from the past,
while pulling some random skills, pretend like they work that way and thinking no one has ever tested these things and tried to make them viable anyhow,
only shows how low tier you are.

It’s funny that you assume someone who has been playing since beta weekend 2 knows nothing about where Warriors were compared to where they are now. They had a lot more buffs than even you seem to remember, or did you not know that Hammer actually got a load of buffs since launch because it was considered too weak? They rolled some of those buffs back recently.

Those skills and traits are not “random.” They are cleansing options that Warriors (and only Warriors) have and, when I do play my Warrior, are plenty to keep me from feeling weak to conditions. But, I’ve only seen Cleansing Ire used and once (just once) Shake it Off by others. Why? Because it is so strong, they don’t even have to really spec into defense against their designed weakness.

If Warriors had strong condition cleansing ability with heavy investment, I’d be fine with it. If you spec heavily into doing something, you should be good at it. The issue is that they need 4 points in Defense (Dogged March and Cleansing Ire) and they’re set. They have great condition resistance without using a single cleanse skill.

I have an incredibly difficult time believing that Warriors right now are actually weak to conditions. They have multiple ways of clearing or reducing snares (the ones that are actually problematic for melee builds) without even getting into the generic condition defense.

Because playing since beta makes you know anything better, i’ve been playing this game since jan 2013 and i wouldn’t say anything during that time just only because i played during it, i only started to know stuff when i heavely invested in to PvP and it’s only 2 months later i started to see stuff more clear, you with your comments clearly shows how little you know about not only pvp but warrior, or even necro.

If you really paid attention to what was happening, you wouldn’t even post assumptions like that assuming what really happened and thinking you know better, all your assumptions are just way off the chart and it’s painful to read. you have been disapprove more then enough for me to even post anything,
please actually read some posts before you post stuff and stay educated without posting blank assumptions and thinking you know better.

Kreen.3925:

Still flogging this horse?

As others have said, combustive shot on the longbow is the issue and not CI. Fix Combustive shot and CI is fine.

In WvW you do not need just DM and CI and you are set….. sure it helps but there are plenty of WvW scenarios where you will struggle with just those. There is more to GW2 than spvp and until they decide to do different trait lines for each format then we end up with some compromises.

Do you even read back your posts. They are full of contradictions within a few sentences. That normally happens when someone is grasping and grasping and grasping….

You say the following:

The issue is that they need 4 points in Defense (Dogged March and Cleansing Ire) and they’re set. They have great condition resistance without using a single cleanse skill.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

They have multiple ways of clearing or reducing snares (the ones that are actually problematic for melee builds) without even getting into the generic condition defense.

So I assume your usage of the term “multiple ways” is just DM and CI then given you state they only need that to be successful. If you actually mean other tools then I guess your 1st quote is null and void. I will let you choose.

Niether of your interpretations is correct. Warriors have multiple ways of removing or reducing snares, which is true. Charge on Warhorn, Dogged March, Restorative Strength, and Mobile Strikes are all methods of dealing with snares.

However, while they have all of those methods, they are not all necessary (or even close to it). Dogged March+Cleansing Ire is usually more than enough and only struggles against the widest condition varieties. Still nothing equipped skill-wise to deal with conditions and yet it’s quite resilient to them with great cleansing.

Your mistake was taking two separate sentences (in separate paragraphs, even) and assuming one described a complete set of the other.

@Simon: What evidence have you offered? You say I’ve been “disproven”, but can you actually point to where? I’d love to see facts that counter my argument, but nobody seems to have anything to say other than “it’s fine.”

silentnight warrior.2714:

alamore.1974:

bigmonto.4215:

Poplolita.2638:

I’m just going to ask you one single question: “Does adrenaline counters warrior’s own traits/mechanic?”

I’m asking you this question for a specific reason, it’s related to another profession that I play often.

Yes it does, on certain build, traits, skills.

For example:
Berserker’s Power gives damage at higher adrenaline, this prevents burst from ever being used in PvE.

Healing Surge, adrenaline need to be stage 3 in order for the heal to be respectable, once again prevents burst from being used.

Any passive bonus on adrenaline is a counter to warrior’s own skills,

Now you can argue that passive bonus are bonus, but keep in mind, warrior’s actually need these bonus to do ok. DPS wise warrior is mediocre even with Berserker’s Power. Healing Surge is a joke without high adrenaline. It’s ok with full adrenaline. There is a reason why warriors were bottom of the barrel before the healing signet buff.

Healing surge refills your adrenaline(try playing it.instead of HS), I use healing surge, eviscerate combo all the time
As for healing surge, stage 2 is a good heal stage 3 is a great heal
What healing sig does is give wars good sustain food against condi damage were surge is best against spike damage.

Yes Healing Surge refills your adrenaline bars. But if you use Healing Surge to refill your adrenaline then you wasted a heal (a low heal because you must be without adrenaline to use the heal for that = pitty heal) and you are vulnerable to all sorce of damage for 30 sec (sustented damage or burst damage) or you heal a good amount but then you dont gain any adrenaline because you have already full adrenaline.

Healing Surge works against the warrior.

If you truely think healing surge works against wars you need to play them more. At 3 bars.healing surge.is a.insanely strong heal and.will.replenish you adrenaline. Leaving you right were you left off with a full adrenaline bar and more health. If you use it for it passive abilities its at 3 bars boosting them, or leave you open for a burst on. Your target.

Like any burst skills it’s meh at lower tiers and better in higher tiers.
People use HS.because it’s passive, they don’t have.to.worry about.it at all. Mix with our invulnerables, blocks, and adrenaline health Its pretty strong. But they main reason is you don’t have.to.manage it. Using surge is.like using any burst skill you need to time it right

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Kreen.3925:

Still flogging this horse?

As others have said, combustive shot on the longbow is the issue and not CI. Fix Combustive shot and CI is fine.

In WvW you do not need just DM and CI and you are set….. sure it helps but there are plenty of WvW scenarios where you will struggle with just those. There is more to GW2 than spvp and until they decide to do different trait lines for each format then we end up with some compromises.

Do you even read back your posts. They are full of contradictions within a few sentences. That normally happens when someone is grasping and grasping and grasping….

You say the following:

The issue is that they need 4 points in Defense (Dogged March and Cleansing Ire) and they’re set. They have great condition resistance without using a single cleanse skill.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

They have multiple ways of clearing or reducing snares (the ones that are actually problematic for melee builds) without even getting into the generic condition defense.

So I assume your usage of the term “multiple ways” is just DM and CI then given you state they only need that to be successful. If you actually mean other tools then I guess your 1st quote is null and void. I will let you choose.

Niether of your interpretations is correct. Warriors have multiple ways of removing or reducing snares, which is true. Charge on Warhorn, Dogged March, Restorative Strength, and Mobile Strikes are all methods of dealing with snares.

However, while they have all of those methods, they are not all necessary (or even close to it). Dogged March+Cleansing Ire is usually more than enough and only struggles against the widest condition varieties. Still nothing equipped skill-wise to deal with conditions and yet it’s quite resilient to them with great cleansing.

Your mistake was taking two separate sentences (in separate paragraphs, even) and assuming one described a complete set of the other.

@Simon: What evidence have you offered? You say I’ve been “disproven”, but can you actually point to where? I’d love to see facts that counter my argument, but nobody seems to have anything to say other than “it’s fine.”

You appear to be someone who has a habit of disowning your own words. This thread is littered with examples of this. You either do this deliberately or not, again I will let you choose.

If all you have gleaned from the numerous posts here presenting counter arguments is that "nobody seems to have anything to say other than “it’s fine.” then you are economical with your reading as well. Again, that’s either deliberate or not, you choose.

Consequently the possibility of having a reasoned discussion with you is remote for reasons I am sure we are both familiar with.

Kreen.3925:

You appear to be someone who has a habit of disowning your own words. This thread is littered with examples of this. You either do this deliberately or not, again I will let you choose.

If all you have gleaned from the numerous posts here presenting counter arguments is that "nobody seems to have anything to say other than “it’s fine.” then you are economical with your reading as well. Again, that’s either deliberate or not, you choose.

Consequently the possibility of having a reasoned discussion with you is remote for reasons I am sure we are both familiar with.

Name one place where I have contradicted myself. None of my statements in this thread have done so. Taking two completely separate sentences from two completely different paragraphs which do not conflict in the slightest and then misinterpreting them to attempt have me coming off as playing my own devil’s advocate is not a way to convince anyone.

Again, saying “Options exist” and saying “only X and Y are used” do not conflict. It simply says that there are more options than are being used, which is 100% true.

The “counterarguments” have been “Cleansing Ire is fine” and “the others suck” without any sort of actual delving into why either is the case. Only one person even attempted to do an actual breakdown, regarding heal amount on Mending and cooldown on Signet of Stamina. The rest of the breakdowns were a bit nonsensical (cleansing cripple/chill/immobilize letting you “set up” a cleanse…what do you think you just did cleansing those conditions?).

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If Warriors had strong condition cleansing ability with heavy investment, I’d be fine with it. If you spec heavily into doing something, you should be good at it. The issue is that they need 4 points in Defense (Dogged March and Cleansing Ire) and they’re set. They have great condition resistance without using a single cleanse skill.

As a conditional warrior I run a shout heal conditional build 0/0/5/6/3

3 out of 6 of my major traits are focus on condition removal + reduction
2 out 3 utility I slot are dealing with conditions applied to me

Do you not consider this heavy investment? Yet my weakness is still conditions. What do you expect people to trait or build in order to be strong against conditions?

Also I am going to give you example of my power based GS + Hammer warrior:

2 out 7 major traits are focus on condition removal + reduction
2 out of 3 utilities I slot are dealing with conditions applied to me
6 out of 6 rune are dealing with condition reduction
1 out 1 food is dealing with condition reduction

This is kind of a free kill for any decently played condition build by the way. I know my condition warrior can eat it for lunch.

Do you not consider this heavy investment?

What exactly do you expect? press a button and win?

bigmonto.4215:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If Warriors had strong condition cleansing ability with heavy investment, I’d be fine with it. If you spec heavily into doing something, you should be good at it. The issue is that they need 4 points in Defense (Dogged March and Cleansing Ire) and they’re set. They have great condition resistance without using a single cleanse skill.

As a conditional warrior I run a shout heal conditional build 0/0/5/6/3

3 out of 6 of my major traits are focus on condition removal + reduction
2 out 3 utility I slot are dealing with conditions applied to me

Yet my weakness is still conditions. What do you expect people to trait or build in order to be strong against conditions?

Without knowing anything about what you’re already running, it’s impossible to give suggestions (I can guess Dogged March, since you mentioned reduction). Given that conditions are intended to be a Warrior’s weakness, however, you really should never be great at dealing with them. Sufficient, perhaps, but not “great”.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Without knowing anything about what you’re already running, it’s impossible to give suggestions (I can guess Dogged March, since you mentioned reduction). Given that conditions are intended to be a Warrior’s weakness, however, you really should never be great at dealing with them. Sufficient, perhaps, but not “great”.

I am not asking for suggestion. And if you are as knowledgeable as you claim about on warriors, you should absolutely know exactly what build I am using, since there really isn’t much options of traits and utilities.

Either way, NO warrior only run CI + zerker stands, they are not enough, no where near enough.

bigmonto.4215:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Without knowing anything about what you’re already running, it’s impossible to give suggestions (I can guess Dogged March, since you mentioned reduction). Given that conditions are intended to be a Warrior’s weakness, however, you really should never be great at dealing with them. Sufficient, perhaps, but not “great”.

I am not asking for suggestion. And if you are as knowledgeable as you claim about on warriors, you should absolutely know exactly what build I am using, since there really isn’t much options of traits and utilities.

Either way, NO warrior only run CI + zerker stands, they are not enough, no where near enough.

Saying “I run shouts” is like a necro saying “I run spectrals.” All that means usually is that you have two skills in a category equipped.

When you said 2/3 of your utilities are there for conditions and only one shout does anything regarding conditions, I assume Shake it Off (which is a good skill because it’s a short cooldown stunbreak) and Berserker’s Stance, plus FGJ as your third utility, given On My Mark kinda sucks and Fear Me is incredibly rarely used. That leaves your Elite (which is Signet of Rage or Warbanner, as nobody uses Juggernaut) and Healing skill (Assumed Healing Signet). Weapons for condition warrior are always Sword/Sword and Longbow. With only one active cleanse skill, and one that only removes a single condition at that, it’s no wonder you’re having issues with conditions.

Although, that does bring up the question of your chosen traits. If you’re running Dogged March (known) and Cleansing Ire (most likely) plus Shrug it Off, you shouldn’t be having issues unless your cleanse timing just sucks. Other professions get by with less in the way of cleanses and do just fine because they know when to use those cleanses.

And yes, Berserker’s Stance+Cleansing Ire is enough. If it weren’t, then the top tier Warriors would be having a lot more difficulties with conditions than they are. The Hambow build is incredibly well known and Cleansing Ire is the only cleanse in the entire build.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Here’s the way I see thing happening if Cleansing Ire gets an ICD on cleanse:

1. Warriors become less popular for a while as people whine about how they have no cleansing options.

2. Some people adapt, realizing that they do, in fact, have cleansing options.

3. Several months later, the new “meta” builds incorporate some alternative cleansing options or admit to having a weakness to conditions.

4. People realize that actual weaknesses should exist in every build. If they don’t have actual weaknesses, they shouldn’t have actual strengths either.

Granted, step 4 will never happen with the vast majority, because they always want their own build to not have weaknesses.

But, given that the following exist for Warrior condition cleansing, but are never used because CI makes them unnecessary, saying “no other options” is flat-out false.

Charge: removes Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize
Mending (3 conditions removed, 20 second cooldown)
Signet of Stamina (all conditions removed, 45 second cooldown, useful passive to let you avoid applications more often)
“Shake it Off!” (1 condition removed AoE, stunbreak, 20 second cooldown, will remove Fear+1 condition)
Restorative Strength (activating a heal skill removes cripple, chill, immobilize, and weakness, applies before healing skill’s effects, so Mending removes those 4 plus 3 others)
Shrug it Off (automatic “Shake it Off!” when affected by 2 or more conditions)
Quick Breathing (Warhorn skills convert a condition to a boon)

If you’re that worried about conditions, you have options aplenty. Heck, 2 points in the Power line + Mending gives you a potential 7 condition cleanse on a 20 second cooldown. That’s insanely efficient.

All of these condition removals exist from beta weekend without cleansing ire. Warrior got eaten by conditions and were considered the weakest PvP profession. So if we return to pre cleansing ire era where warriors had ‘insanely efficient’ condition removal,…why were they being eaten alive by conditions and considered D-grade PvP profession? Why did they receive so many buffs in the first place?..Because the ‘insane efficiency’ you refer to just wasn’t efficient at all.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

bigmonto.4215:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Without knowing anything about what you’re already running, it’s impossible to give suggestions (I can guess Dogged March, since you mentioned reduction). Given that conditions are intended to be a Warrior’s weakness, however, you really should never be great at dealing with them. Sufficient, perhaps, but not “great”.

I am not asking for suggestion. And if you are as knowledgeable as you claim about on warriors, you should absolutely know exactly what build I am using, since there really isn’t much options of traits and utilities.

Either way, NO warrior only run CI + zerker stands, they are not enough, no where near enough.

Saying “I run shouts” is like a necro saying “I run spectrals.” All that means usually is that you have two skills in a category equipped.

When you said 2/3 of your utilities are there for conditions and only one shout does anything regarding conditions, I assume Shake it Off (which is a good skill because it’s a short cooldown stunbreak) and Berserker’s Stance, plus FGJ as your third utility, given On My Mark kinda sucks and Fear Me is incredibly rarely used. That leaves your Elite (which is Signet of Rage or Warbanner, as nobody uses Juggernaut) and Healing skill (Assumed Healing Signet). Weapons for condition warrior are always Sword/Sword and Longbow. With only one active cleanse skill, and one that only removes a single condition at that, it’s no wonder you’re having issues with conditions.

Although, that does bring up the question of your chosen traits. If you’re running Dogged March (known) and Cleansing Ire (most likely) plus Shrug it Off, you shouldn’t be having issues unless your cleanse timing just sucks. Other professions get by with less in the way of cleanses and do just fine because they know when to use those cleanses.

And yes, Berserker’s Stance+Cleansing Ire is enough. If it weren’t, then the top tier Warriors would be having a lot more difficulties with conditions than they are. The Hambow build is incredibly well known and Cleansing Ire is the only cleanse in the entire build.

Where do you see top tier warriors? from team games? Their condition clear comes from the groups. Solo hambow were not that great, even if they are good, they are still only good at capping a point. In wvw, every single power build use -condition rune + food + usually 2 out of 3 utilities dedicated to deal with conditions.

Why do I have more issue with conditions? Cover conditions. You can say timing all you want, but you know as well as I do a good conditional build have a lot of cover conditions put on almost all the time. This is why I never have problems against other power warriors with CI.

As you mentioned “Other professions get by with less in the way of cleanses” I don’t doubt that is true. Because other profession has other ways to deal with conditions or damage in general. Cleanse is not necessarily the only way to deal with conditions. For example: if you have a good way of avoid getting hit by condition based attacks, or some profession have naturally good healing ability to heal through them.

What I am saying is, you cannot simply see a profession’s cleanse abilities, and determine whether it is a weakness for that profession. You have to judge base on the overall mechanism of that profession.

If you play a warrior you will know that condition is indeed a weakness for warrior currently. Many of us make a lot of investment try mitigate it, but often its still not enough.

Funny you should mention sustained self-healing, given that is something Warriors are also quite good at (with the same trait investment required for Cleansing Ire, ironically). And methods to avoid the condition attacks? Like Smoldering Shot, Shield Stance, and Berserker’s Stance?

Yes, in the top tier, it’s a team game. That does not mean they are with a team all the time. Hambows are strong solo-cappers (and frequently go do so) and they don’t usually have allies there to help. Any conditions are their responsibility alone to deal with.

The “insane efficiency” I noted was a 7 condition clear on a 20 second cooldown. For cleanses, that is insanely efficient. The problem there is that Mending needs a small buff to base heal value.

That said, Cleansing Ire, again, was not the only buff they received at the same time. Berserker’s Stance also got changed in the same patch as well as the Healing Signet buff and Dogged March. The Hambow build had also not been discovered yet (both weapons were actually considered terrible at the time) and Warriors were getting their butts kicked by Power builds as well. But then again, when everyone is running Throw-Bolas→ Hundred Blades, it’s not hard to see why the Warriors were free kills. Most hadn’t learned the value of control. Now they have.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

bigmonto.4215:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If Warriors had strong condition cleansing ability with heavy investment, I’d be fine with it. If you spec heavily into doing something, you should be good at it. The issue is that they need 4 points in Defense (Dogged March and Cleansing Ire) and they’re set. They have great condition resistance without using a single cleanse skill.

As a conditional warrior I run a shout heal conditional build 0/0/5/6/3

3 out of 6 of my major traits are focus on condition removal + reduction
2 out 3 utility I slot are dealing with conditions applied to me

Yet my weakness is still conditions. What do you expect people to trait or build in order to be strong against conditions?

Without knowing anything about what you’re already running, it’s impossible to give suggestions (I can guess Dogged March, since you mentioned reduction). Given that conditions are intended to be a Warrior’s weakness, however, you really should never be great at dealing with them. Sufficient, perhaps, but not “great”.

I think we are as good as we are supposed to be. I use Hoelbrak runes, dogged march, reduction food, cleansing ire, zerker stance. I’d like to think I can handle most builds coming at me, but when I loose, it’s to conditions. Counting blinds in here.

On the paper warrior is great for dealing with condis. Much harder in reality. I never run LB but I think that it could be a bit over the top maybe yes. If you as me run hammer/sw/shield actually landing your burst is a gamble due to enemy movement and blinds, since you have to hit something for CI to go off.

Hitting your burst skills is not as difficult as you make it out to be, though, since you’re up in their face anyway. Not a whole lot of blinds that can be used in response to Eviscerate, for example. Sure, people can block/dodge/blind burst skills, but Warriors are more than equipped enough to bait out those defenses with other skills or comboing off of CC (for example, if they don’t avoid Backbreaker, Earthshaker will nail them.)

Yes, you need to land it for Cleansing Ire to do anything, but landing it is not as hard as you make it out to be (other than Kill Shot, which you basically need an ally to lock them down for). Even if you do miss, you can weapon swap and try your other burst, since a miss doesn’t take your adrenaline.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Hitting your burst skills is not as difficult as you make it out to be, though, since you’re up in their face anyway. Not a whole lot of blinds that can be used in response to Eviscerate, for example. Sure, people can block/dodge/blind burst skills, but Warriors are more than equipped enough to bait out those defenses with other skills or comboing off of CC (for example, if they don’t avoid Backbreaker, Earthshaker will nail them.)

Yes, you need to land it for Cleansing Ire to do anything, but landing it is not as hard as you make it out to be (other than Kill Shot, which you basically need an ally to lock them down for). Even if you do miss, you can weapon swap and try your other burst, since a miss doesn’t take your adrenaline.

My build rely on landing it and it helps me alot, and I do know how to bait breakers and dodges to make full use of my bursts, but I far from always land my bursts anyway. I occasionally get just outpowered by condition builds, and mostly it’s a close call. That is the reality, I’m not going to alter it to suit my purposes or make it look like I’m better than I really am. I’m not awesome or great but I am solid, solid enough for you to not just wipe away that reality with a shrug.

In times like these when a few solid souls try to cling on to the direct damage legacy and trying to squeeze out the last few bits of power to actually beat a condition build hands on I don’t think it’s time to talk about the means of the cleansing being too strong but wether conditions should be as strong as they are at the moment.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Hitting your burst skills is not as difficult as you make it out to be, though, since you’re up in their face anyway. Not a whole lot of blinds that can be used in response to Eviscerate, for example. Sure, people can block/dodge/blind burst skills, but Warriors are more than equipped enough to bait out those defenses with other skills or comboing off of CC (for example, if they don’t avoid Backbreaker, Earthshaker will nail them.)

Yes, you need to land it for Cleansing Ire to do anything, but landing it is not as hard as you make it out to be (other than Kill Shot, which you basically need an ally to lock them down for). Even if you do miss, you can weapon swap and try your other burst, since a miss doesn’t take your adrenaline.

Landing. a burst is a lot harder then you think it is. Most classes have.ample.defensive capabilities to deal with warriors burst, you issue with CI is starting to sound more and more like an issue with necro defenses instead. As some one who plays necro(as much as I play my war) I know it can be frustrating with our lack of defensive capabilities making hitting a necro with a wars burst verry easy.

What I think CI needs,
Maybe 10s cooldown
Conbustive shot and CI tweaked a little
Maybe reduce condis cleansed to 2 at tier 2-3 and 1 at tier 0-1

alamore.1974:

Maybe reduce condis cleansed to 2 at tier 2-3 and 1 at tier 0-1

That won’t happen. Any mechanic that centers on Adrenaline has to have different functionality on each level of adrenaline. Otherwise the scaling is not only confusing, but also promotes spamming. In your case, the optimal usage of adrenaline would be at <3 bars every single time.

Conbustive shot and CI tweaked a little

The thing is, Combustive Shot gives you the choice to use your adrenaline to cleanse your conditions rather than dealing damage. Which is good.

Blind alone wouldn’t be such a big deal, but a condi thief also has ample access to stealth and teleports, which makes Berserker Stance kinda a moot point.

alamore.1974:

Landing. a burst is a lot harder then you think it is. Most classes have.ample.defensive capabilities to deal with warriors burst, you issue with CI is starting to sound more and more like an issue with necro defenses instead. As some one who plays necro(as much as I play my war) I know it can be frustrating with our lack of defensive capabilities making hitting a necro with a wars burst verry easy.

I do notice that as well. This thread is really about Necro’s gripe against a warrior and not so much about OPness of CI.

Most condition builds don’t have much problem with it. Of course condition builds are often so much stronger in solo settings that they really don’t care. I would say definitely tune down condition builds in general first. Then work on group conditional cleanse so condition builds are more represented in higher tier team games, even CI if it become too much. Currently CI is absolutely necessary for any non-pve warrior, and more-often-than-not not enough.

Not so much a necro’s gripe. Cleansing Ire is objectively better than most cleansing skills out there (only exception being Consume Conditions, a total cleanse on 25 second cooldown with better rewards for the more you cleansed). Even with no other traiting, it’s a 3 condition cleanse on a 10 second cooldown. No other cleanse in the game works that fast. With further traiting, it’s a 3 condition cleanse on a 7 second cooldown, or a 3, then 1 or 2 on a 7 second cooldown.

It’s strong enough that many Warriors get along just fine without taking a single cleanse skill, despite that being an intended weakness of the profession. The closest anyone else gets to that is Rangers with a Grandmaster trait that transfers 3 conditions to the pet every 10 seconds. Higher investment for a cleanse that literally screws the pooch, and conditions are not supposed to be a major weakness of Rangers.

I am not asking for CI to lose one bit of functionality it currently has. I’m asking for it to not be able to totally replace cleanse skills by being available less often. If it got an ICD and did not go on cooldown if you used a burst skill with no conditions, fine. I’m not averse to that, as it would function similarly to the sigils that cleanse on hit/crit and still be guaranteed to be removing conditions when it went off.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Here’s the way I see thing happening if Cleansing Ire gets an ICD on cleanse:

1. Warriors become less popular for a while as people whine about how they have no cleansing options.

2. Some people adapt, realizing that they do, in fact, have cleansing options.

3. Several months later, the new “meta” builds incorporate some alternative cleansing options or admit to having a weakness to conditions.

4. People realize that actual weaknesses should exist in every build. If they don’t have actual weaknesses, they shouldn’t have actual strengths either.

Granted, step 4 will never happen with the vast majority, because they always want their own build to not have weaknesses.

But, given that the following exist for Warrior condition cleansing, but are never used because CI makes them unnecessary, saying “no other options” is flat-out false.

Charge: removes Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize
Mending (3 conditions removed, 20 second cooldown)
Signet of Stamina (all conditions removed, 45 second cooldown, useful passive to let you avoid applications more often)
“Shake it Off!” (1 condition removed AoE, stunbreak, 20 second cooldown, will remove Fear+1 condition)
Restorative Strength (activating a heal skill removes cripple, chill, immobilize, and weakness, applies before healing skill’s effects, so Mending removes those 4 plus 3 others)
Shrug it Off (automatic “Shake it Off!” when affected by 2 or more conditions)
Quick Breathing (Warhorn skills convert a condition to a boon)

If you’re that worried about conditions, you have options aplenty. Heck, 2 points in the Power line + Mending gives you a potential 7 condition cleanse on a 20 second cooldown. That’s insanely efficient.

This is a big no.

Before CI and HS we had all of that and we saw warriors being the worst class in PvP.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Not so much a necro’s gripe. Cleansing Ire is objectively better than most cleansing skills out there (only exception being Consume Conditions, a total cleanse on 25 second cooldown with better rewards for the more you cleansed). Even with no other traiting, it’s a 3 condition cleanse on a 10 second cooldown. No other cleanse in the game works that fast. With further traiting, it’s a 3 condition cleanse on a 7 second cooldown, or a 3, then 1 or 2 on a 7 second cooldown.

It’s strong enough that many Warriors get along just fine without taking a single cleanse skill, despite that being an intended weakness of the profession. The closest anyone else gets to that is Rangers with a Grandmaster trait that transfers 3 conditions to the pet every 10 seconds. Higher investment for a cleanse that literally screws the pooch, and conditions are not supposed to be a major weakness of Rangers.

I am not asking for CI to lose one bit of functionality it currently has. I’m asking for it to not be able to totally replace cleanse skills by being available less often. If it got an ICD and did not go on cooldown if you used a burst skill with no conditions, fine. I’m not averse to that, as it would function similarly to the sigils that cleanse on hit/crit and still be guaranteed to be removing conditions when it went off.

Clearly you have some misconception of a warrior. And I am tired of repeating myself. Once again: Warrior don’t just only take CI to deal with conditions. We use Runes, food, zerker stands, signet of sta, Shake it off, often war horn, and other traits. Unless in your mind none of these counts.

In sPvP why don’t you take a warrior with only CI and see how long you last.

Cleansing Ire, save Longbow isn’t just some trait that can be activated at any time and voila conditions removed. It is balanced by the fact that you have to land your burst in order to deal damage. And you have to have full adrenaline to get the most out of it.

And some will say hey how hard can it be to get full adrenaline? We have Versatile Rage, CI and Berserker Stance. Believe it or not, in small scale combat like 2v2 you aren’t always going to gather the adrenaline you need within 10 seconds.

How hard is it to land a burst? Good luck landing a burst against a thief with evades and stealth on demand. Good luck landing it against a PU Mesmer, or a Mesmer with a Staff or if they have multiple blocks and teleport. You can bait all you want but they have all these on demand that baiting doesn’t help much. And sometimes you need to use the burst just to clear the conditions. A lot of people run single/dual energy sigils nowadays and vigor isn’t something that is hard to obtain with most classes so really and truly a burst skill isn’t difficult to dodge. That and the fact that most burst skills require melee range and most of them are actually highly telegraphed.

A class can easily force some of the gapclosers that a warrior has by the fact they need to be in melee range to deal their damage. And then inflict conditional damage from afar. CI would be useless in that situation. Burst skills you can’t forget either are a major component for either setting up DPS, or being DPS. I.e: Eviscerate, Skull Crack, Earthshaker, Flurry. So if a class is just trying to save the burst to deal conditions, most likely they aren’t doing a whole lot of damage to you. A good player can easily wait for a Warrior to use a burst skill and then overload them with conditions. For example, having a Warrior use eviscerate then popping Signet of Spite.

Also, good luck fighting a condition class with just CI, and Dogged March without a Longbow (even with a Longbow, condition Mesmers, Thieves, Necros and Engis will still probably kill you eventually). Only problem I see with CI is that Longbow is the exception to what is an otherwise balanced trait and I do agree that it is a bit too strong in that regard.

However, I wouldn’t mind significant changes to CI if ANet did the following things.

#1: Make Mending viable (increase the healing to around 6,000)
#2: Buff one other trait/utility that deals with conditions

Problem with Restorative Strength is that it does not cleanse any damaging conditions. Problem with Warhorn is that by itself it isn’t good for condition removal. To make it viable for condition removal requires Quick Breathing, which is in the worst trait line out of all classes if you aren’t investing in shout healing. As if Warhorn providing no damage is handicapping enough. Shake it off sucks for a condition removal, Signet of Stamina is the only decent and viable one, though on a 45 second CD. Trooper runes require a full-time investment in tactics to even be mildly effective.

Conditions are a significant weakness to any Warrior not using Longbow.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

First off, a disclaimer. I don’t main Warrior, I main necro. Yes, this does mean I have a biased opinion on this topic.

However, this is coming more from the Ready Up #16. Notably, the section where the developers mention intended Warrior weaknesses.

Now, most folks can agree that “weak at dealing with enemy boons” and “reliant on adrenaline” are, with current design, jokes of weaknesses. But the third one they mentioned “can be easily overloaded with conditions once their defenses run out” is real.

At least, it’s real in every build that doesn’t run Cleansing Ire. This one trait eliminates the biggest weakness Warriors are designed to have (and also drastically mitigates the joke weakness of adrenaline dependance). As such, does anyone feel it would be out of line to give the cleansing part a cooldown? Say, 20 seconds? It would still be a good trait, but it would not singlehandedly remove a designed weakness and remove the need to bring any condition removal skills (Warriors have them, including a full cleanse utility).

TLDR: Would adding a 20 second cooldown to Cleansing Ire’s cleanse be an unecessarily harsh nerf, or would it be justified and in line with ANet’s vision for the class?

I’ve never been one to care to much about ire’s cleanse although I won’t deny I do appreciate it from time to time.

however do I think ire’s op with a certain build (very specific here) ire can essientally grant pusedo condtion immunity the problem is not ire it’s ire in conjuection with a lot of other traits skills and hell a trait line. it’s a tricky situation to fix with out really harming warriors any fix would need to be purely to the cleanse as well not to the ad gain.

so is it op well maybe it’s hard to say it’s op when you compare it to the absurd rates some professions can place them on you.

i.e. in a duel in 1v1 a Mesmer over whelmed me using ever cleanse the warrior has with his on death traits.

bigmonto.4215:

alamore.1974:

Landing. a burst is a lot harder then you think it is. Most classes have.ample.defensive capabilities to deal with warriors burst, you issue with CI is starting to sound more and more like an issue with necro defenses instead. As some one who plays necro(as much as I play my war) I know it can be frustrating with our lack of defensive capabilities making hitting a necro with a wars burst verry easy.

I do notice that as well. This thread is really about Necro’s gripe against a warrior and not so much about OPness of CI.

Most condition builds don’t have much problem with it. Of course condition builds are often so much stronger in solo settings that they really don’t care. I would say definitely tune down condition builds in general first. Then work on group conditional cleanse so condition builds are more represented in higher tier team games, even CI if it become too much. Currently CI is absolutely necessary for any non-pve warrior, and more-often-than-not not enough.

I never said its was a necro gripe, I just said (as warrior and a necro player) that this sounds more.like an issue with necro.defenses,

As is landing a burst takes timing and setting up, but landing a burst on a necro all you really have.to.do is click a button. Its not hard at all.

Now I do disagree with every one saying" CI is a absolute must in every pvp build" that’s just people pushing meta. CI is strong and way useful but you can play without it just fine. SOS and.zerker stance I can handle most any condition class.

The one.weakness of taking CI is 4 points into.a trait line. (And burning adrenaline, but that’s not honestly a huge.problem.)

Olba.5376:

alamore.1974:

Maybe reduce condis cleansed to 2 at tier 2-3 and 1 at tier 0-1

That won’t happen. Any mechanic that centers on Adrenaline has to have different functionality on each level of adrenaline. Otherwise the scaling is not only confusing, but also promotes spamming. In your case, the optimal usage of adrenaline would be at <3 bars every single time.

Conbustive shot and CI tweaked a little

The thing is, Combustive Shot gives you the choice to use your adrenaline to cleanse your conditions rather than dealing damage. Which is good.

Blind alone wouldn’t be such a big deal, but a condi thief also has ample access to stealth and teleports, which makes Berserker Stance kinda a moot point.

Yes I know but try fighting a skilled warrior with surge(3 condi cleanse) then combustible shot(3 cleanse)
Leaving all utilities for some narly cc completly shutting down necros. The will win every time. Think less warrior balance and more game.balence.

Thieves are pretty much the only profession where landing a Burst is difficult. Mesmers, you can always just burst an illusion if you need the cleanse, since they never dodge or block. Rangers have a pet you can do the same to, and everyone else is significantly less slippery.

So basically, CI is bad against theives who are the most evasive profession by design. It’s good to fantastic against everyone else (the effectiveness of the burst itself is another story).

I’d be perfectly happy if they buffed Mending’s healing especially (the only weak point of the skill) alongside nerfing CI (and something about its current use should be nerfed). Maybe dropping Signet of Stamina to a 40 second cooldown would be handy as well. It’s already a total cleanse that can only be interrupted through blind luck and has a very good passive.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Thieves are pretty much the only profession where landing a Burst is difficult. Mesmers, you can always just burst an illusion if you need the cleanse, since they never dodge or block. Rangers have a pet you can do the same to, and everyone else is significantly less slippery.

So basically, CI is bad against theives who are the most evasive profession by design. It’s good to fantastic against everyone else (the effectiveness of the burst itself is another story).

I’d be perfectly happy if they buffed Mending’s healing especially (the only weak point of the skill) alongside nerfing CI (and something about its current use should be nerfed). Maybe dropping Signet of Stamina to a 40 second cooldown would be handy as well. It’s already a total cleanse that can only be interrupted through blind luck and has a very good passive.

Can we just take a moment here and clarify something, please? Where do your opinion and experience come from? From your necro or your warrior? My “i can’t kill them so they are too strong”-sense is tingling in spite of your seemingly objective arguments.

Sorry, I just can’t see how you are linking this to the reality of the game. Conditions is the meta, it’s very hard to deal with. I use CI and have since it was introduced basically, and I love the fact that it is, contrary to your beliefs, one of few things that are actually very skillbased about the warrior. If you don’t build adrenaline it’s useless. If you don’t land your burst it’s also useless. You make a choice, either use it for the moment or wait as long as you can to cleanse as many conditions as possible.

I do not want to rely on a healing skill to clean conditions, that if anything will not be skillbased because it’s just an “Oh kitten heal!/Oh kitten conditions!”-mechanic. Like much is about the warrior still.

Gamgee.8612:

I do not want to rely on a healing skill to clean conditions, that if anything will not be skillbased because it’s just an “Oh kitten heal!/Oh kitten conditions!”-mechanic. Like much is about the warrior still.

Agreed. My biggest issue with mending is you are either wasting a heal to cure condis or you are wasting a cleanse to get a heal. Rarely is the timing ever right to get the full effects of mending without wasting one or the other.

Gamgee.8612:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Thieves are pretty much the only profession where landing a Burst is difficult. Mesmers, you can always just burst an illusion if you need the cleanse, since they never dodge or block. Rangers have a pet you can do the same to, and everyone else is significantly less slippery.

So basically, CI is bad against theives who are the most evasive profession by design. It’s good to fantastic against everyone else (the effectiveness of the burst itself is another story).

I’d be perfectly happy if they buffed Mending’s healing especially (the only weak point of the skill) alongside nerfing CI (and something about its current use should be nerfed). Maybe dropping Signet of Stamina to a 40 second cooldown would be handy as well. It’s already a total cleanse that can only be interrupted through blind luck and has a very good passive.

Can we just take a moment here and clarify something, please? Where do your opinion and experience come from? From your necro or your warrior? My “i can’t kill them so they are too strong”-sense is tingling in spite of your seemingly objective arguments.

Sorry, I just can’t see how you are linking this to the reality of the game. Conditions is the meta, it’s very hard to deal with. I use CI and have since it was introduced basically, and I love the fact that it is, contrary to your beliefs, one of few things that are actually very skillbased about the warrior. If you don’t build adrenaline it’s useless. If you don’t land your burst it’s also useless. You make a choice, either use it for the moment or wait as long as you can to cleanse as many conditions as possible.

I do not want to rely on a healing skill to clean conditions, that if anything will not be skillbased because it’s just an “Oh kitten heal!/Oh kitten conditions!”-mechanic. Like much is about the warrior still.

Both, actually. I don’t play my Warrior often, but I don’t have issues with conditions whether I’m running Cleansing ire or the alternatives. I do feel like I have a lot more build freedom with CI, though.

And the “Condition meta” has never existed. Even at the most popular period for conditions (right after the Dhuumfire patch) never had more than 2 condition users on a team in tPvP. PvE and WvW have never had conditions being popular, PvE for the stack cap and WvW because of the mass cleanse. The only thing that might come close to a “condition meta” was hotjoin PvP, but that format cannot have a real meta due to essentially being random team compositions. Nobody has any control over team composition there, thus, there can never be a meta.

As for the “condition cleanse or healing” what do you think Necros do all the time with their heal skills?

Please, keep in mind that OP is merely asking for warrior to have actually meaningful weaknesses — currently, they their strenghts outshine them way too much --. Let’s not derail this thread, and accuse the OP for being biased while being diluted at the same time.

If you don’t think a nerf to CI is the right anwer, that’s fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But telling to yourself that warrior is balanced, and should remain unchanged is being delusional at this point.

Gamgee.8612:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Thieves are pretty much the only profession where landing a Burst is difficult. Mesmers, you can always just burst an illusion if you need the cleanse, since they never dodge or block. Rangers have a pet you can do the same to, and everyone else is significantly less slippery.

So basically, CI is bad against theives who are the most evasive profession by design. It’s good to fantastic against everyone else (the effectiveness of the burst itself is another story).

I’d be perfectly happy if they buffed Mending’s healing especially (the only weak point of the skill) alongside nerfing CI (and something about its current use should be nerfed). Maybe dropping Signet of Stamina to a 40 second cooldown would be handy as well. It’s already a total cleanse that can only be interrupted through blind luck and has a very good passive.

Can we just take a moment here and clarify something, please? Where do your opinion and experience come from? From your necro or your warrior? My “i can’t kill them so they are too strong”-sense is tingling in spite of your seemingly objective arguments.

Sorry, I just can’t see how you are linking this to the reality of the game. Conditions is the meta, it’s very hard to deal with. I use CI and have since it was introduced basically, and I love the fact that it is, contrary to your beliefs, one of few things that are actually very skillbased about the warrior. If you don’t build adrenaline it’s useless. If you don’t land your burst it’s also useless. You make a choice, either use it for the moment or wait as long as you can to cleanse as many conditions as possible.

I do not want to rely on a healing skill to clean conditions, that if anything will not be skillbased because it’s just an “Oh kitten heal!/Oh kitten conditions!”-mechanic. Like much is about the warrior still.

What “meta condition” are you talking about? I’m really curious to know where it does come from, I see posters like you posting about that “condition meta” here and there, but I just don’t see it. Quite frankly, using thet word “meta” inappropriately hurts your argument. AND ironic considering you came up with : “I just can’t see how you are linking this to the reality of the game.”

Also, why do you consider a “passive heal” more skill based than an active one?

Nerf warriors so I can overload with constant conditions. CI totally needs a CD because stacking conditions is soooooo hard.

Poplolita.2638:

Please, keep in mind that OP is merely asking for warrior to have actually meaningful weaknesses — currently, they their strenghts outshine them way too much --. Let’s not derail this thread, and accuse the OP for being biased while being diluted at the same time.

If you don’t think a nerf to CI is the right anwer, that’s fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But telling to yourself that warrior is balanced, and should remain unchanged is being delusional at this point.

What “meta condition” are you talking about? I’m really curious to know where it does come from, I see posters like you posting about that “condition meta” here and there, but I just don’t see it. Quite frankly, using thet word “meta” inappropriately hurts your argument. AND ironic considering you came up with : “I just can’t see how you are linking this to the reality of the game.”

Also, why do you consider a “passive heal” more skill based than an active one?

Warrior is not balanced. I if anyone would like it to have more mechanics that makes it more of a challange to be very good with it. Therefore CI is a good trait imo, since for idiot players it will not be useful, but for good players it’s very strong.

As for using the “Conditions meta”, who exactly are these “posters like me?” Posters defending their profession? What I mean with that is that I encounter more often condition builds than straight damage builds in WvW. Condition builds are stronger atm than direct damage builds. Just take warrior for an example. A condition warrior is the most cheesy and OP thing to play in WvW right now I’d say. I madea condition build, determinde it was too cheesy and moved on to direct damage again because I want other gameplay than just lining up conditions. I rarely go PvP or PvE, it’s just not fun enough. Therefore my arguments are based off a WvW perspective. I could have mentioned it before, I agree. That is my reality however and it’s not for you to deny.

As for the healing skill. I have in numerous threads in this forum stated that HS should be nerfed to 200hp/s and the active upped a bit to make it useful. I would still consider it our best healing skill.

I think it’s quite weird how people accuse warriors of being too simple to play and yet still wants to make them more simple. Mending is crap, and I would not use it even if the heal was 10K. Just the idea of it is crap. As for comparing it to “Consume Conditions” doesn’t make it justice, as Consume Conditions have no limit that I know of, how many conditions you consume, and they all heal you. So it’s still a heal skill. Mending is EITHER a heal skill OR a condition removal. In 99.9% of the cases you will waste one of them for the other. CI IS skillbased, even if it works when people arn’t that skilled either. To use it at it’s most it takes skill wether you want it or not.

I don’t think we will come to an agreement but I’m pretty sure we know what either side wants, right?

I want CI to be the skill it’s supposed to be. It’s kitten for kitten players, but godly for godly players. A dynamic condition removal.

You want CI to be nerfed and MENDING of all skills buffed in healing to compensate. A weird proposal. Nobody will use it anyway. It’s kitten. I can see why you want Cleansing ire to be nerfed since on paper it’s a 3 condi removal each 8 seconds. That is not how it works. It removes 2 or 1 sometimes for me, and it’s wasted when I need to use my burst for other things, but I have the option of trying to land a burst in order to remove a few extra conditons when assaulted with them, as I often are.

Fair enough, I agree with you. When I read ‘condition meta", I automatically think about pvp which is currently might/bunker meta, I didn’t realize you were talking from a wvw point of view. As for the rest, thank you for clearing this misunderstanding!

This discussion is about PvP right?
Because you dont need that trait in WvW at all.

Kontrolle.3514:

This discussion is about PvP right?
Because you dont need that trait in WvW at all.

In roaming scene it’s really good, but in organized group (10+) it’s not needed because there is so much cleanse flying around anyways.

Kontrolle.3514:

This discussion is about PvP right?
Because you dont need that trait in WvW at all.

I do. I play solo or with a maximum of a full party. The cleansing is good enough with more players, agreed.

Cleansing Ire is very easy to counter, the problem comes with berserker stance. It prevents counterplay.

If it were made a shorter duration with a shorter cooldown, it would reduce the period of invulnerability.

Keep in mind that the cleansing ire removes three conditions and that it will blow off your adrenaline.
Besides that you are not choosing which condi’s get cleansed.

If you get chained feared by a necro, you don’t even have the chance to make use of the cleansing ire. And yes, the good necro’s manage to get you struck in there chainfear if you blow your stances to early. If you aren’t, you’ll get the signet of spite on you. Clean that and they’ll remove your boons with corrupt boons and boom even more condi’s. I don’t know if you guys ever watched your condi’s carefully, but after your berserker stance runs of, it becomes a very rough fight. the 3 conditions you clean with the cleansing ire wont make that big of a diffrence. I usually find myself getting the necro’s really really low, them popping death shroud and have the feeling I need to kill them twice. Good condi necro can make it a kittene for warriors and can be won by both classes in my opinion.

Warriors are strong atm, but isn’t that what they are supposed to be as a heavy armor class? Rather improve other classes than dump down warriors through the drain.
Leave the warriors, they’re fine.

Rolyate.6753:

Cleansing Ire is very easy to counter, the problem comes with berserker stance. It prevents counterplay.

If it were made a shorter duration with a shorter cooldown, it would reduce the period of invulnerability.

berserker stance only grants immunity to conditions, the warrior will still die to direct damage and still can be affected by crowd control skills.

counter play for berserker stance:
- direct damage
- crowd control

cleansing ire is balanced by the way.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Rolyate.6753:

Cleansing Ire is very easy to counter, the problem comes with berserker stance. It prevents counterplay.

If it were made a shorter duration with a shorter cooldown, it would reduce the period of invulnerability.

berserker stance only grants immunity to conditions, the warrior will still die to direct damage and still can be affected by crowd control skills.

counter play for berserker stance:
- direct damage
- crowd control

cleansing ire is balanced by the way.

They are immune against crowd control labeled as condition such as fear, Immobilize, chill, blind, and cripple though.

Poplolita.2638:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Rolyate.6753:

Cleansing Ire is very easy to counter, the problem comes with berserker stance. It prevents counterplay.

If it were made a shorter duration with a shorter cooldown, it would reduce the period of invulnerability.

berserker stance only grants immunity to conditions, the warrior will still die to direct damage and still can be affected by crowd control skills.

counter play for berserker stance:
- direct damage
- crowd control

cleansing ire is balanced by the way.

They are immune against crowd control labeled as condition such as fear, Immobilize, chill, blind, and cripple though.

well, only for 8 or 10 seconds.

only fear is considered crowd control and condition, and having either stability or condition immune will block fear.

the rest are conditions.

true crowd control are knock down, knock back, launch, daze, stun

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Poplolita.2638:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Rolyate.6753:

Cleansing Ire is very easy to counter, the problem comes with berserker stance. It prevents counterplay.

If it were made a shorter duration with a shorter cooldown, it would reduce the period of invulnerability.

berserker stance only grants immunity to conditions, the warrior will still die to direct damage and still can be affected by crowd control skills.

counter play for berserker stance:
- direct damage
- crowd control

cleansing ire is balanced by the way.

They are immune against crowd control labeled as condition such as fear, Immobilize, chill, blind, and cripple though.

well, only for 8 or 10 seconds.

only fear is considered crowd control and condition, and having either stability or condition immune will block fear.

the rest are conditions.

true crowd control are knock down, knock back, launch, daze, stun

Why did you feel the need to bring : “only for 8 or 10 seconds”. You didn’t think for a second I play this game as well? Obviously, berserker stance duration is 8 sec (10 sec traited).

I assume you never heard the term soft cc (except immobilize = hard cc)? The conditions I listed are indeed crowd control. They don’t have to be control effect to be considered as cc.

Poplolita.2638:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Poplolita.2638:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Rolyate.6753:

Cleansing Ire is very easy to counter, the problem comes with berserker stance. It prevents counterplay.

If it were made a shorter duration with a shorter cooldown, it would reduce the period of invulnerability.

berserker stance only grants immunity to conditions, the warrior will still die to direct damage and still can be affected by crowd control skills.

counter play for berserker stance:
- direct damage
- crowd control

cleansing ire is balanced by the way.

They are immune against crowd control labeled as condition such as fear, Immobilize, chill, blind, and cripple though.

well, only for 8 or 10 seconds.

only fear is considered crowd control and condition, and having either stability or condition immune will block fear.

the rest are conditions.

true crowd control are knock down, knock back, launch, daze, stun

Why did you feel the need to bring : “only for 8 or 10 seconds”. You didn’t think for a second I play this game as well? Obviously, berserker stance duration is 8 sec (10 sec traited).

I assume you never heard the term soft cc (except immobilize = hard cc)? The conditions I listed are indeed crowd control. They don’t have to be control effect to be considered as cc.

doesn’t matter.
conditions are still conditions.
control effects are still control effects.

only fear is the kitten child hybrid, having either stability or condition immune will prevent fear from being applied at all.

by the way, control effects:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

Daze.png Daze
Fear.png Fear
Float.png Float1
Knockback.png Knockback (Push)
Knockdown.png Knockdown
Launch.png Launch (Blowout)
Push.png Pull
Sink.png Sink1
Stun.png Stun
Petrified.png Petrified caused by Thief tango icon 20px.png Basilisk Venom

soft cc is merely a term created by the player community.

in the end, the core gameplay mechanics still does not recognize “soft cc” but just “conditions” and “control effects”

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Poplolita.2638:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Poplolita.2638:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Rolyate.6753:

Cleansing Ire is very easy to counter, the problem comes with berserker stance. It prevents counterplay.

If it were made a shorter duration with a shorter cooldown, it would reduce the period of invulnerability.

berserker stance only grants immunity to conditions, the warrior will still die to direct damage and still can be affected by crowd control skills.

counter play for berserker stance:
- direct damage
- crowd control

cleansing ire is balanced by the way.

They are immune against crowd control labeled as condition such as fear, Immobilize, chill, blind, and cripple though.

well, only for 8 or 10 seconds.

only fear is considered crowd control and condition, and having either stability or condition immune will block fear.

the rest are conditions.

true crowd control are knock down, knock back, launch, daze, stun

Why did you feel the need to bring : “only for 8 or 10 seconds”. You didn’t think for a second I play this game as well? Obviously, berserker stance duration is 8 sec (10 sec traited).

I assume you never heard the term soft cc (except immobilize = hard cc)? The conditions I listed are indeed crowd control. They don’t have to be control effect to be considered as cc.

doesn’t matter.
conditions are still conditions.
control effects are still control effects.

only fear is the kitten child hybrid, having either stability or condition immune will prevent fear from being applied at all.

by the way, control effects:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

Daze.png Daze
Fear.png Fear
Float.png Float1
Knockback.png Knockback (Push)
Knockdown.png Knockdown
Launch.png Launch (Blowout)
Push.png Pull
Sink.png Sink1
Stun.png Stun
Petrified.png Petrified caused by Thief tango icon 20px.png Basilisk Venom

soft cc is merely a term created by the player community.

in the end, the core gameplay mechanics still does not recognize “soft cc” but just “conditions” and “control effects”

You should probably re-read what you typed instead of puting words in my mouth.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Rolyate.6753:

Cleansing Ire is very easy to counter, the problem comes with berserker stance. It prevents counterplay.

If it were made a shorter duration with a shorter cooldown, it would reduce the period of invulnerability.

berserker stance only grants immunity to conditions, the warrior will still die to direct damage and still can be affected by crowd control skills.

counter play for berserker stance:
- direct damage
- crowd control

cleansing ire is balanced by the way.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

well, only for 8 or 10 seconds.

only fear is considered crowd control and condition, and having either stability or condition immune will block fear.

the rest are conditions.

true crowd control are knock down, knock back, launch, daze, stun

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

- crowd control

I’m actually the one who brought “control effect” into this discussion (NOT YOU) to help you out: what you listed as “crowd control” in your list were actually control effect. I don’t know why you felt the need to put words in my mouth, and make it seem like you were the one talking about “control effect” all along when it wasn’t the case.

“They don’t have to be control effect to be considered as cc.”

Here, for instance, I’m directly making an allusion to what you listed as “crowd control” by using the term "control effect.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

soft cc is merely a term created by the player community.

in the end, the core gameplay mechanics still does not recognize “soft cc” but just “conditions” and “control effects”

Let me remind you just in case:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

- crowd control

Soft cc=soft —crowd control-- .
You are the one who came up with the term “crowd control”. Next time, use the proper one which was, in this context, “control effect” so we can avoid those silly misunderstanding.

i see. my bad.

i should have wrote “control effects” which is the proper term in the game.

yes, berserker stance merely makes the warrior immune to conditions, new conditions cannot be applied. though i am not sure if already applied conditions will hurt or hinder the warrior or not. probably not.

however, a warrior who does not have decent armor and health will still drop quickly under direct damage even with berserker stance activated.

various control effects will still toss and flung the warrior about.