Cleansing Ire
Why are you going straight to 20s? That makes no sense. If you want to start somewhere, start at the 10s that is a standard cooldown for a burst skill. Which would still be a significant reduction, considering that pretty much everyone runs at least 3 into Discipline, with a lot of warriors going 6 into Discipline.
Why straight to 20s?
In most cases, a 10 second ICD is meaningless, since it can’t be activated more frequently than that anyway. ICD’s only mean anything if they actually prevent something from occurring. A 10 second ICD wouldn’t do that.
In addition, Cleansing Ire is far more efficient than any other condition-clearing trait in the entire game. Even at once per 10 seconds, it’s still incredibly efficient. The next most efficient one is Ranger’s Empathic Bond which transfers them to the pet instead of actually cleansing them. It’s also a Grandmaster trait instead of a Master. 3 conditions removed every 20 seconds is still 1.5 times more efficient than the “remove 1 condition every 10 seconds” traits that other professions have. Then there’s the fact that it would still be refilling your adrenaline every time you got hit. The trait does more than just make Warriors have godly cleansing abilities.
Even 20 seconds is still quite efficient. That amounts to the burst skill being a “remove 3 conditions and do awesome thing X” (unless it’s a Greatsword you’re on, but that burst skill needs another pass) on a 20 second cooldown. Heck, you can even use it without the cleanse while it’s on cooldown! A 3 condition cleanse on a 20 second cooldown is pretty decent for a skill, and the burst skills would be doing quite a bit more than just that functionality.
I agree that the Combustive Shot/Cleansing Ire combo is too strong, but outside of a total rework of Combustive Shot, it will always be the most efficient. Cleansing Ire, however, is still quite good even without a Longbow. It is not really that difficult to land a burst skill outside of Kill Shot. Yes, an opponent can counterplay it, but Warriors have enough threat skills available to bait out the defenses before going for the Burst. Even so, having the additional counterplay would reinforce the point that Warriors are actually supposed to be weak to condition overload after they spend their defenses.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Why straight to 20s?In most cases, a 10 second ICD is meaningless, since it can’t be activated more frequently than that anyway. ICD’s only mean anything if they actually prevent something from occurring. A 10 second ICD wouldn’t do that.
You don’t play warrior, which is why you can not possibly understand what playing a warrior was like without Cleansing Ire.
Thus, completely overnerfing a trait by cutting it in half, which is what you are trying to do here, can only be viewed as a lack of knowledge in my opinion.
Oh, and warriors that take Cleansing Ire as their only way of mitigating conditions, will die. To conditions.
I only state my opinion unless stated otherwise.
Hulk Roaming Montages/Build Vids
I always rage but never quit.
Hulk Roaming Montages/Build Vids
I always rage but never quit.
The problem is not cleansing ire, its combustive shot. That’s why a warrior without a longbow is not viable .
Anyway if you’ re talking about spvp , Warrior pretty much hard counters necro because of the lack of stability and stances. Even if they increased the CD of CI you still won’t be able to take them down as a necro.
That is the problem right there. Without it warrior will be a free kill. I agree that the CI, BM, LB combo is ridiculously strong. CI should not clear 3 condis with only 2 bars of adrenaline when traited . You clear the same with less on top of being able to burst more often, it really does need to be toned down.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
Have you tried? Warriors have decent condition clearing options available without Cleansing Ire, but they don’t need to take them because Cleansing Ire is just that strong. Take the popular Hambow build. It runs 0 cleansing outside of CI, but is nigh impossible to bring down with conditions if played even remotely intelligently.
So, this kinda proves that CI is too strong as it is, as it alone can replace all the rest of a Warrior’s cleansing and then some.
Tell me, what methods do any other professions have for 3 conditions cleared on a 10 second cooldown? It’s an active cleanse. It should be balanced as such.
“can be easily overloaded with conditions once their defenses run out”
try play against any experienced necro without berserker stance(the defense) and only cleansing ire.
you will get overloaded with conditions in no time. and berserker stance can be easily counterplayed by walking away.
anyone still thinks that hambow is strong vs condition after lyssa nerf needs to get better. a warrior without berserker stance gets easily taken by condition if you know what you are doing, except i bet most of you don’t
i bet my 50 games necro can duel your warrior.
want to know how its done? a warrior without berserker stance, they overload you with condition(including chill and cripple) while you are on hammer, then avoid your easy to avoid crippled chillded earth shaker by simply positioning, dodging, minion knock back, blind ( or fear), then when you switch to longbow trying to combustive shot to cleans only half of the conditions on you, same thing, they can fear you or minion knock back, or if they feared you before ( which means you had to use stability in order to use combustive shot) then they can boon corrupt to chain even longer fear.
(edited by Simon.3794)
Even a lot of warriors have been asking an ICD into CI. 15s or even 10s would be enought to drop it’s potential a lot.
At the moment you can cleanse roughly 3 to 5 conditions every 8s of combat by spamming Combust and doing second burst with, lets say Hammer, assuming ES hits.
Thats a lot.
Now, it won’t cover warriors kitten from condition spamming necro, no. But it will completely shut down a lot of other professions conditions out of the picture all together. So tuning it a bit would be fair.
Other thing what I would like to see is them to change Mending a bit for it to be a bit more viable. Not a drasctic change imo, but something like +500 to the healing part, or make Physical Training work with it (the cooldown part of it, not the effectivity part).
A Pink scumbag of [FACE] and deep inside a [GuM]ster
Mouggari – Warrior – Candy cane Avenger
Mouggari – Warrior – Candy cane Avenger
It really does need an ICD.. 15-20 would put it in line with other classes cleansing options.
If doing that means warriors have a crippling lack on condition removal (I dont know if thats true or not, but if it is) then they need to be given other condition removal options to combine with CI.
Keeping CI OP because theres no other options is a terrible arguement.
Cufufalating – Ranger / Part-Time Mesmer
Gunnar’s Hold
Gunnar’s Hold
I think some of you are misunderstanding my disclaimer at the top. I’m not arguing in favor of a nerf because I want to kill Warriors. I know how to do that and don’t complain when I get beaten because I know the Hambow strengths line up perfectly with necro weaknesses. I can still win, I just have to out-play them to a larger degree than other opponents. Such is the nature of counters.
What I’m arguing for is a nerf to Cleansing Ire because the one trait alone negates a designed weakness of the class and is currently so strong it negates the need for any other cleansing.
Even necros have difficulty maintaining four conditions. Two is easy, three is stretching it. Four requires very significant effort. But four conditions must be maintained against CI because otherwise, every burst skill wipes pretty much all of it out.
There is a difference between “applying” and “maintaining,” though. Application of a half dozen conditions is easy. Keeping them on a target for more than a few seconds is tough.
Warriors outside of Cleansing Ire actually have terrible and non-viable options for condition removal.
Mending is much too weak for the warrior in terms of the sustain that it gives. Signet of Stamina cures every 45 seconds. Other condition removal skills only remove pretty much one at a time.
tPvP isn’t the only game mode and an unjustified straight up nerf to it will have a more amplified effect in WvW because hambow isn’t run in WvW.
Cleansing Ire is only so powerful in PvP because you are contesting a point and it isn’t too difficult to land a burst in a small circle. Plus longbow doesn’t need you to land the burst to clear conditions.
However if you are running something like Hammer/Sword+Shield, condi classes can pretty much kite all of your burst skills with ease and just overload the warrior with conditions. Classes like Thieves, Necros, Mesmers and Engis. It isn’t difficult to dodge an Earthshaker or a Flurry as the former is highly telegraphed and the latter is melee.
The fact that you actually have to hit your burst to remove conditions is conceptually balanced because the counter to that is dodging, blinding and CC’ing the warrior to prevent usage. Obviously Longbow bypasses that rule because it doesn’t matter if you dodge or blind.
Other than that signet of stamina is the only option to cleanse a condition bomb, and often you have to sacrifice something like Berserker Stance for it or a stunbreaker.
Honestly I feel like Mesmer’s whom are supposed to have conditions have a weakness have more reliable/viable condition removal if you don’t take Cleansing Ire into account. The mantra removes 4 conditions every 25 seconds or so, Null Field removes 5 conditions as a pulse every 40 seconds, torch removes 2 conditions every 25 seconds or so, Mender’s Purity removes 2 conditions every 15-20 seconds and stealth can completely stop any condition application. At least as far as WvW is concerned.
So in essence what I am trying to say is
Cleansing ire is only powerful because of:
#1: Longbow
#2: The nature of having to contest small points in PvP
Now, I don’t mind Cleansing Ire being tweaked or "nerfed per se" because ANet wants conditions to be a Warrior’s weakness. However, a weakness to conditions is what completely put Warriors completely out of the meta at game launch. Even with Cleansing Ire they were still out of the meta and it wasn’t until Healing Signet was buffed till they came into prominence.
(edited by killahmayne.9518)
Have you tried? Warriors have decent condition clearing options available without Cleansing Ire, but they don’t need to take them because Cleansing Ire is just that strong.
That statement is completely flawed. Try running it against any primary condition class and you’ll see why. Not only would the warrior never get to the target (movement conditions), the warrior would never generate enough Adrenaline to actually clear conditions on them (even with a Longbow).
You know what really screws the warrior, stealth. Opponent applies a series of conditions, opponent stealths (say hi to P/D thief and PU mesmer). If you don’t run Longbow, Cleansing Ire is not all that great.
Unfortunately, the Necro sees all the pain and none of the non-targetable avoidance defenses that Engineers (block/stealth/stuns), Thief and Mesmers get to abuse.
To fix, I would simply make it so that LB Combustive Shot needs to hit a target (just like all the other F1 adrenaline abilities) in order to trigger Cleansing Ire. Problem solved and no need to increase to 10s or 20s internal cooldown.
Have you tried? Warriors have decent condition clearing options available without Cleansing Ire, but they don’t need to take them because Cleansing Ire is just that strong.
(…) the warrior would never generate enough Adrenaline to actually clear conditions on them (even with a Longbow). (…)
… this is exactly why he’s proposing CI nerf. I’ll quote him for you:
(…) “and “reliant on adrenaline” are, with current design, jokes of weaknesses.” (…)
So not only warrior will be once again weak against conditions, but also adrenaline management will actually be a weakness. MADNESS!
(edited by Poplolita.2638)
“can be easily overloaded with conditions once their defenses run out”
try play against any experienced necro without berserker stance(the defense) and only cleansing ire.
you will get overloaded with conditions in no time. and berserker stance can be easily counterplayed by walking away.anyone still thinks that hambow is strong vs condition after lyssa nerf needs to get better. a warrior without berserker stance gets easily taken by condition if you know what you are doing, except i bet most of you don’t
i bet my 50 games necro can duel your warrior.
want to know how its done? a warrior without berserker stance, they overload you with condition(including chill and cripple) while you are on hammer, then avoid your easy to avoid crippled chillded earth shaker by simply positioning, dodging, minion knock back, blind ( or fear), then when you switch to longbow trying to combustive shot to cleans only half of the conditions on you, same thing, they can fear you or minion knock back, or if they feared you before ( which means you had to use stability in order to use combustive shot) then they can boon corrupt to chain even longer fear.
You said it yourself , go fight a necro without berserk stance? Why anybody would do that ? Hambow 3 stances beats necros.
Anyway I’m not going to defend necro because as I said the animations are poorly telegraphed .
OP said, CI is op and viable even without berserker stance and you are OK with CI alone, which is not. and will get completely overloaded by condition. CI alone is just not good enough even with longbow, only be paired with berserker stance makes it decent.
and i was giving an example how hes wrong
you want tactic for a necro to fight a zerker stance warrior? it’s the same think with a few step more.
apply condition(including chill cripple) from far, and he will walk like a turtle and takes forever to get to you and just keep applying conditions.
he will be forced to go berserker stance in order to reach up to you, minion knock back.
if he pops berserker stance with balanced stance, boon corrupt then minion knock back, as he gets close to you, double triple w/e dodge backward or forward, well, dodge hammer CCs, his berserker stance will be gone by the time he reaches you, he may not even have the time to use his hammer skills and he will have no defense left at all other then endure pain, you can just chain fear him to death, you don’t even need to use your stunbreaks.
3 stances warrior does not beat necro, either you use berserker stance and balance stance at once, or your little stability will get corrupted in to fear, then if you do use them at once, they can just strip your stability and minion knock back and you waste your berserker stance. not to mention you have runes of nightmare.
unless sure, you are a hambow that starts a fight when you are in necro’s face, not from range. that’s what most necro make their mistake, why would you fight a warrior on their point or if you are the one defending, you should start doing something as he gets in that 1200 range.
(edited by Simon.3794)
I never stated “Cleansing Ire alone is enough defense agaisnt conditions” I said it was the only cleanse you needed because it is just that strong. Berserker Stance doesn’t cleanse conditions. Ever.
Even without Berserker Stance, Cleansing Ire is still quite strong.
And I did not come up with the idea of condition overload being a Warrior weakness, nor did I come up with “adrenaline reliance” as a weakness. ArenaNet did. Watch Ready Up #16 if you want proof of that statement.
Cleansing Ire is in this tricky situation.
The longbow is the culprit, not CI for the condi clear people complain about. Go into a PvP match with out the longbow, and see how OP CI really is, I’ll give you a hint: It’s NOT.
And look at the sPvP meta builds, what do they all have in common? Low gap closing potential, sure SoR gives swiftness and dogged march is nice, but people are really underestimating how needed the ‘free’ longbow CI clear really is.
Pin Down helps a lot, and besides that, Longbow is a very solid weapon even without CI. Gap closing isn’t that necessary when you engage at 1000 range.
“can be easily overloaded with conditions once their defenses run out”
try play against any experienced necro without berserker stance(the defense) and only cleansing ire.
you will get overloaded with conditions in no time. and berserker stance can be easily counterplayed by walking away.
I kill necros all the time with only CI on my zerk AxSh/LB. All you have to do is not waste your burst to clear the little conditions and wait for the condi bomb. I never thought zerk stance to be that effective cause of lack of animation on many skills from other classes and you rely on guessing when they will unleash the condis. I prefer running with extra stun breaks and stability, Endure Pain, Balance Stance, Doly Sig are whats on my bar.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
(edited by Julie Yann.5379)
cleansing ire is fine, leave it alone.
In most cases, a 10 second ICD is meaningless, since it can’t be activated more frequently than that anyway. ICD’s only mean anything if they actually prevent something from occurring. A 10 second ICD wouldn’t do that.
Yes it would. Points into Discipline reduce the cooldown of your Burst skill from 10s all the way to 7.75s. Also different weapons don’t share cooldowns on Burst skills. That is, you can do a burst on one weapon set, then swap to the other and do another.
And pretty much all warriors run at least 3 in Discipline. A lot of warriors run 6 with Burst Mastery.
In addition, Cleansing Ire is far more efficient than any other condition-clearing trait in the entire game. Even at once per 10 seconds, it’s still incredibly efficient. The next most efficient one is Ranger’s Empathic Bond which transfers them to the pet instead of actually cleansing them. It’s also a Grandmaster trait instead of a Master. 3 conditions removed every 20 seconds is still 1.5 times more efficient than the “remove 1 condition every 10 seconds” traits that other professions have. Then there’s the fact that it would still be refilling your adrenaline every time you got hit. The trait does more than just make Warriors have godly cleansing abilities.
The problem with all of that is simple: Cleansing Ire with an ICD would function like the Sigils that remove conditions. That is, it would be put on ICD even if it didn’t remove any conditions. Which would mean that anyone running CI would end up having to sit on their adrenaline to cleanse those conditions.
Even 20 seconds is still quite efficient. That amounts to the burst skill being a “remove 3 conditions and do awesome thing X” (unless it’s a Greatsword you’re on, but that burst skill needs another pass) on a 20 second cooldown. Heck, you can even use it without the cleanse while it’s on cooldown! A 3 condition cleanse on a 20 second cooldown is pretty decent for a skill, and the burst skills would be doing quite a bit more than just that functionality.
Yeah except the part where everyone is running around with a Longbow because Blind makes CI do jack on every other weapon set.
If you still think CI with a 20s cooldown would be “good enough”, have a look at shout builds. With FGJ/OMM/SIO, you’re looking at an average of 3 conditions every 16 seconds. Add in a Warhorn and you’re looking at 3 conditions every 9s. And yet no one runs shouts with or without a Warhorn. And that’s the current second best if you don’t use CI.
(edited by Olba.5376)
I never stated “Cleansing Ire alone is enough defense agaisnt conditions” I said it was the only cleanse you needed because it is just that strong. Berserker Stance doesn’t cleanse conditions. Ever.
Even without Berserker Stance, Cleansing Ire is still quite strong.
And I did not come up with the idea of condition overload being a Warrior weakness, nor did I come up with “adrenaline reliance” as a weakness. ArenaNet did. Watch Ready Up #16 if you want proof of that statement.
Hmm… did you completly miss my point? You do know that this is pretty much what I said to the other guy? Or did you assume that I can’t read dulfy/streaming?
And I did not come up with the idea"
When did I said it was YOUR idea??
If you want to have a proper conversation, put your assumptions aside because it’s extremely offensive. When people put words in my mouth, it gets on my nerve.
(edited by Poplolita.2638)
I apologize, Polita. The wording wasn’t the most clear and I misinterpreted it.
@Olba: And nobody runs Warhorn/Shouts because of Cleansing Ire. Warriors, have pretty good cleansing options besides CI, but CI makes them irrelevant because you can throw the rest of your trait points into offense and use none of your actual skill slots for cleansing. CI gets a cooldown, and now you will have to actually make a choice. Do you want your skills and traits free, or do you want more cleansing? Right now, you get to choose both.
“Blind stops CI” is a joke. Yeah, it prevents the attack from hitting, but only Thief and Ele have viable builds with blinds that can be used to react to burst skills (outside of kill shot). You know what happens when you miss? You keep all your adrenaline and can try again in 7-10 seconds (less if you weapon swap). Try just tossing an auto-attack before you burst if you got blinded. It works wonders.
Also, the sigils of purity and generosity no longer go on cooldown if no conditions are removed. It would be simple enough to code CI to not go on cooldown unless it removed conditions. However, even if it did start the cooldown without cleansing anything, it would not be as bad because you can control exactly when your Burst skill goes off. The sigils are not something you can control. Active cleanses, if used with no conditions, still go on cooldown. Cleansing Ire just turns your Burst skill into an active cleanse. You don’t want it on CD before you have something to cleanse? Don’t use your cleanse with no conditions!
I apologize, Polita. The wording wasn’t the most clear and I misinterpreted it.
@Olba: And nobody runs Warhorn/Shouts because of Cleansing Ire. Warriors, have pretty good cleansing options besides CI, but CI makes them irrelevant because you can throw the rest of your trait points into offense and use none of your actual skill slots for cleansing. CI gets a cooldown, and now you will have to actually make a choice. Do you want your skills and traits free, or do you want more cleansing? Right now, you get to choose both.
“Blind stops CI” is a joke. Yeah, it prevents the attack from hitting, but only Thief and Ele have viable builds with blinds that can be used to react to burst skills (outside of kill shot). You know what happens when you miss? You keep all your adrenaline and can try again in 7-10 seconds (less if you weapon swap). Try just tossing an auto-attack before you burst if you got blinded. It works wonders.
Also, the sigils of purity and generosity no longer go on cooldown if no conditions are removed. It would be simple enough to code CI to not go on cooldown unless it removed conditions. However, even if it did start the cooldown without cleansing anything, it would not be as bad because you can control exactly when your Burst skill goes off. The sigils are not something you can control. Active cleanses, if used with no conditions, still go on cooldown. Cleansing Ire just turns your Burst skill into an active cleanse. You don’t want it on CD before you have something to cleanse? Don’t use your cleanse with no conditions!
Which means you can’t use your burst either. The main function of F1 is to do damage, not clear conditions. Forcing people to hold back until they have conditions before using it is not a good way to go. Coding CD on CI to not go off without a cleanse is a better idea.
I think Anet should just start by fixing how it acts with burst mastery first, every self respecting warrior in PvP goes 6 in discipline . You use 2 bars of adrenaline you should only cleanse 2 conditions. Start with that and if it is still too strong then add a CD.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
I am really surprised people have problems with CI.
Most power based warrior are extremely weak against conditional users even with CI. The problem is that conditional based attacks are mostly ranged, and its easy to play defensively and kite the warrior.
Even as a conditional warrior, my weakness is against other condition builds, this is with LB and Sw both are fairly easy to proc CI.
If you nerf CI that basically kill off all the power warrior builds out there. I would say how about do something about the conditional meta first.
Or how about this… Conditional cleanse will cleanse the condition with the highest stacks first. Then you can nerf CI, and it would not be a huge build destroyer.
(edited by bigmonto.4215)
The last thing this game needs is more hidden ICDs for traits.
Highest soloQ rank – #2
I never stated “Cleansing Ire alone is enough defense agaisnt conditions” I said it was the only cleanse you needed because it is just that strong.
Even without Berserker Stance, Cleansing Ire is still quite strong.
“it was the only cleanse you needed because it is just that strong” = “Cleansing Ire alone is enough defense agaisnt conditions” is it that difficult to understand.
Berserker Stance doesn’t cleanse conditions. Ever.
yea, it doesn’t but it prevent condition applications so you will have less condition to cleans, also it gives you adrenaline so you can cleans more condition with cleansing ire, without it ( or other adrenaline gaining skills which are all useless and bad) its impossible to keep up full adrenaline for 3 condition cleanse, unless ofc if you wait a long time to use burst skills. a lot of time you will be using burst skill with only level 1 adrenaline causing one condition removal, some of the times you will have no adrenaline to use your burst skills.
talking about adrenaline, heres a quote shows how little you know about this class.
Adrenaline as a weakness…lol! There’s nothing a Warrior has to do to keep his adrenaline up. He just fights and it happens. Necromancers and Mesmers, now they have resource management as a weakness. Warriors? Yeah right.
which brings me to one of my favorite quote from another game’s forum
it amazes me how someone can be so condescending towards others, when he himself has not tried the build yet, nor does he know anything about how the associated-skills work.
i seriously don’t know why you are still arguing. i already proved how wrong you are before this comment.
(edited by Simon.3794)
They would at least need to add proper animations to the necro if they decide to nerf condi clears . Each time I face a necro I end up winning because of CI and zerk stance and not because I dodged the condi burst.
So far the only skill I can dodge is signet of spite DS 5 and golem charge the rest, there’s no animations at all .
The pre patch dhummfire necro could 100-0 people easely. They nerfed the damage but they still never added animations like they did with the warrior.
Necros have.a lot of cast animations, most of them are hand.gestures making it a little harder to notice but they are there.
DS on the other hand is verry hard to tell but Life blast is so easy to time, way I do.it is think of.it.like a drum beat what’s.you get the life blast rythm down its verry easy to counter.
As for CI on wars I honestly don’t see it as a huge issue to receive a cool down, maybe reduce cleansed condi down to 2 instead of 3.
Zerker stance is a skill that.needs a.little.looking at. Necros have.verry.limited CC and.movment making zerker a win all against them.
talking about adrenaline, heres a quote shows how little you know about this class.
Adrenaline as a weakness…lol! There’s nothing a Warrior has to do to keep his adrenaline up. He just fights and it happens. Necromancers and Mesmers, now they have resource management as a weakness. Warriors? Yeah right.
which brings me to one of my favorite quote from another game’s forum
it amazes me how someone can be so condescending towards others, when he himself has not tried the build yet, nor does he know anything about how the associated-skills work.
i seriously don’t know why you are still arguing. i already proved how wrong you are before this comment.
Strange, then, that on my warrior I never have an issue building up adrenaline to get stage 2 or 3 burst skills on cooldown. Cleansing Ire itself provides at least 1 bar each time.
I never stated “Cleansing Ire alone is enough defense agaisnt conditions” I said it was the only cleanse you needed because it is just that strong.
Even without Berserker Stance, Cleansing Ire is still quite strong.“it was the only cleanse you needed because it is just that strong” = “Cleansing Ire alone is enough defense agaisnt conditions” is it that difficult to understand.
Berserker Stance doesn’t cleanse conditions. Ever.
yea, it doesn’t but it prevent condition applications so you will have less condition to cleans, also it gives you adrenaline so you can cleans more condition with cleansing ire, without it ( or other adrenaline gaining skills which are all useless and bad) its impossible to keep up full adrenaline for 3 condition cleanse, unless ofc if you wait a long time to use burst skills. a lot of time you will be using burst skill with only level 1 adrenaline causing one condition removal, some of the times you will have no adrenaline to use your burst skills.
talking about adrenaline, heres a quote shows how little you know about this class.
Adrenaline as a weakness…lol! There’s nothing a Warrior has to do to keep his adrenaline up. He just fights and it happens. Necromancers and Mesmers, now they have resource management as a weakness. Warriors? Yeah right.
which brings me to one of my favorite quote from another game’s forum
it amazes me how someone can be so condescending towards others, when he himself has not tried the build yet, nor does he know anything about how the associated-skills work.
i seriously don’t know why you are still arguing. i already proved how wrong you are before this comment.
You did not proove him wrong. When you start comparing other class ressource management with adrenaline, it appears less and less of a weakness, and more like a strenght. Try playing other professions, you’ll see.
it amazes me how someone can be so condescending towards others, when he himself has not tried the build yet, nor does he know anything about how the associated-skills work.
CI makes burst skills remove conditions, but to works requires hit the foe (CS is the exception), them you can’t remove condition while feared, blinded, and in some cases immobilized.
The class is dead without CI + Combustive Shot. Try run every other build without one of this two end die easy all time :/
The class still weak to conditions.
You did not proove him wrong. When you start comparing other class ressource management with adrenaline, it appears less and less of a weakness, and more like a strenght. Try playing other professions, you’ll see.
What class are you talking about? Lets see…. I play a
Guardian…. basically extra skills to use, and if you don’t use them it gives passives, not much resource there
Thief…. The energy comes back quickly, skills has no cooldown. I would say its easier than warrior
Elementalist … no resource, cooldown on weapon switch, don’t think its comparable to warrior
Other classes:
Eng.. same just cooldowns
Hunter.. same, pet cooldowns
Mesmer… same shatter cooldowns, maybe you are saying clone count, not sure how to compare
Necro… arguably harder to manage than warrior, but they start out with a full bar.
So far adrenaline seems to be a weakness to me. Unless you take certain traits, it is hard to get adrenaline up.
Since when have Necros started out with a full bar? They have to build up their life force. The only difference is that they can save it between fights.
And yes, on Mesmer, the “resource management” has always been and always will be illusions (both clones and phanstasms).
Both Necros and Mesmers have to use particular skills to get their resources up and also have to work to maintain it. Warriors can use any attack skill they like and Adrenaline fills. Warriors also have two skill options that instantly fill Adrenaline and two more that do so over time. Mesmers need 2 skills minimum to fill their quota and necros frequently need 10 or more!
Adrenaline is dead easy to fill and honestly not hard to just go without caring about it most of the time.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
I admit, I don’t know about these two classes.
But that’s still 2 classes out of 8, that’s arguably harder.
Mesmer’s illusions are only “resource management” is you shatter them often. This is not the case for a lot of builds. Also scepter autos requires 9 attacks. Warrior requires 30.
Necros’ life force is also a lot more powerful than the warrior’s Adrenaline, as it double as health, and does not deplete right away.
Warrior’s needs to manage adrenaline + burst cooldowns. Plus most of the burst aren’t exactly earth shattering. Adrenaline is not that easy to build in the beginning. It is easy only being constantly attacked.
So far adrenaline seems to be a weakness to me. You can say maybe for Necro is even more of an issue, but a bottom 2 out of 8 classes is not exactly a strength.
(edited by bigmonto.4215)
Adrenaline is not a weakness, you build it up in combat, use its for.passives and or burst skills.
I have no.issue building adrenaline pretty fast, even.without cleansing ire
It’s a weakness compare to other classes.
Warrior need to manage it, it means getting certain traits, or use certain skills. Burst has cooldown and requires Adrenaline. Can you activate LB F1 and SW F1 right after? Only if you take burst mastery, and only if you have 3 stages of Adrenaline when you activate LB F1. Otherwise no.
Other classes’ skills are only cooldown based.
Can Guardian activate virtures back-to-back? yes.
Can Elementalist activate different attunements back-to-back? yes
…
If you take no traits to improve Adrenaline generation. It requires warrior to hit 30 times. That is not easy to do on a ranged character. In PVE, this is a non-issue, since you don’t even use burst. I admit CI does save our butt here, but we have to get hit often to make CI adrenaline generation meaningful. This and that we have no large burst heal is one reason why warrior is weak against bursts.
(edited by bigmonto.4215)
It’s a weakness compare to other classes.
Warrior need to manage it, it means getting certain traits, or use certain skills. Burst has cooldown and requires Adrenaline. Can you activate LB F1 and SW F1 right after? Only if you take burst mastery, and only if you have 3 stages of Adrenaline when you activate LB F1. Otherwise no.
Other classes’ skills are only cooldown based.
Can Guardian activate virtures back-to-back? yes.
Can Elementalist activate different attunements back-to-back? yes
…If you take no traits to improve Adrenaline generation. It requires warrior to hit 30 times. That is not easy to do on a ranged character. In PVE, this is a non-issue, since you don’t even use burst. I admit CI does save our butt here, but we have to get hit often to make CI adrenaline generation meaningful. This and that we have no large burst heal is one reason why warrior is weak against bursts.
You do realize you have options besides Healing Signet, right? Healing Surge and Defiant Stance are both very effective heals against burst.
It’s a weakness compare to other classes.
Warrior need to manage it, it means getting certain traits, or use certain skills. Burst has cooldown and requires Adrenaline. Can you activate LB F1 and SW F1 right after? Only if you take burst mastery, and only if you have 3 stages of Adrenaline when you activate LB F1. Otherwise no.
Other classes’ skills are only cooldown based.
Can Guardian activate virtures back-to-back? yes.
Can Elementalist activate different attunements back-to-back? yes
…If you take no traits to improve Adrenaline generation. It requires warrior to hit 30 times. That is not easy to do on a ranged character. In PVE, this is a non-issue, since you don’t even use burst. I admit CI does save our butt here, but we have to get hit often to make CI adrenaline generation meaningful. This and that we have no large burst heal is one reason why warrior is weak against bursts.
You do realize you have options besides Healing Signet, right? Healing Surge and Defiant Stance are both very effective heals against burst.
You do realize the heal on these are a joke right?
It’s a weakness compare to other classes.
Warrior need to manage it, it means getting certain traits, or use certain skills. Burst has cooldown and requires Adrenaline. Can you activate LB F1 and SW F1 right after? Only if you take burst mastery, and only if you have 3 stages of Adrenaline when you activate LB F1. Otherwise no.
Other classes’ skills are only cooldown based.
Can Guardian activate virtures back-to-back? yes.
Can Elementalist activate different attunements back-to-back? yes
…If you take no traits to improve Adrenaline generation. It requires warrior to hit 30 times. That is not easy to do on a ranged character. In PVE, this is a non-issue, since you don’t even use burst. I admit CI does save our butt here, but we have to get hit often to make CI adrenaline generation meaningful. This and that we have no large burst heal is one reason why warrior is weak against bursts.
You do realize you have options besides Healing Signet, right? Healing Surge and Defiant Stance are both very effective heals against burst.
You do realize the heal on these are a joke right?
Healing Surge has a very strong heal at stage 2&3 adrenaline. Defiant Stance is used to negate the burst entirely and is a potentially infinite heal amount. Bare minimum, it’s 3 seconds that you are guaranteed to survive.
It’s a weakness compare to other classes.
Warrior need to manage it, it means getting certain traits, or use certain skills. Burst has cooldown and requires Adrenaline. Can you activate LB F1 and SW F1 right after? Only if you take burst mastery, and only if you have 3 stages of Adrenaline when you activate LB F1. Otherwise no.
Other classes’ skills are only cooldown based.
Can Guardian activate virtures back-to-back? yes.
Can Elementalist activate different attunements back-to-back? yes
…If you take no traits to improve Adrenaline generation. It requires warrior to hit 30 times. That is not easy to do on a ranged character. In PVE, this is a non-issue, since you don’t even use burst. I admit CI does save our butt here, but we have to get hit often to make CI adrenaline generation meaningful. This and that we have no large burst heal is one reason why warrior is weak against bursts.
I’m just going to ask you one single question: “Does adrenaline counters warrior’s own traits/mechanic?”
I’m asking you this question for a specific reason, it’s related to another profession that I play often.
They really just need to change how the longbow interacts with CI. The idea behind CI is that it’s an offensively oriented form of condition removal. You need to land your burst skill to benefit from it, meaning a player can counter your condition removal by taking care to avoid/block/whatever your burst skill. That’s how the trait maintains its balance.
The longbow overrides all that and provides a quick and easy method of clearing conditions that doesn’t really require any skill or setup that is supposed to be inherent in the trait. It’s virtually impossible for anyone to counter the cleansing ire proc from combustive shot, so the trait loses the thing that is supposed to maintain its balance.
In comparison, if you run CI in a non-longbow build, say GS + A/Sh, its still a very useful thing to have along. However, you often have to setup a combo (i.e. shield bash into eviscerate), or just try to bait out the opponents defenses on other skills before using your burst. However, its much easier to counter a CI proc in this build since both burst skills are melee-types, both have noticeable startup animations, and both can be dodged, blocked, blinked away from, &c. if they are just thrown out there. With the longbow, you just throw it out there and get rewarded.
They don’t need to change the interaction with BM because then you have this weird scenario where traits are conflicting with each other. If anything, traits should work cooperatively instead of competitively with each other, especially since some of them are relegated to grandmaster slots.
Once they figure out a better way to manage CI’s interaction with longbow so that it actually requires the skill, timing, setups, &c. that the trait is supposed to, it’ll help restore part of the warrior’s “supposed” vulnerability to conditions.
I’m just going to ask you one single question: “Does adrenaline counters warrior’s own traits/mechanic?”
I’m asking you this question for a specific reason, it’s related to another profession that I play often.
Yes it does, on certain build, traits, skills.
For example:
Berserker’s Power gives damage at higher adrenaline, this prevents burst from ever being used in PvE.
Healing Surge, adrenaline need to be stage 3 in order for the heal to be respectable, once again prevents burst from being used.
Any passive bonus on adrenaline is a counter to warrior’s own skills,
Now you can argue that passive bonus are bonus, but keep in mind, warrior’s actually need these bonus to do ok. DPS wise warrior is mediocre even with Berserker’s Power. Healing Surge is a joke without high adrenaline. It’s ok with full adrenaline. There is a reason why warriors were bottom of the barrel before the healing signet buff.
I’m just going to ask you one single question: “Does adrenaline counters warrior’s own traits/mechanic?”
I’m asking you this question for a specific reason, it’s related to another profession that I play often.
Yes it does, on certain build, traits, skills.
For example:
Berserker’s Power gives damage at higher adrenaline, this prevents burst from ever being used in PvE.Healing Surge, adrenaline need to be stage 3 in order for the heal to be respectable, once again prevents burst from being used.
Any passive bonus on adrenaline is a counter to warrior’s own skills,
Now you can argue that passive bonus are bonus, but keep in mind, warrior’s actually need these bonus to do ok. DPS wise warrior is mediocre even with Berserker’s Power. Healing Surge is a joke without high adrenaline. It’s ok with full adrenaline. There is a reason why warriors were bottom of the barrel before the healing signet buff.
Healing surge refills your adrenaline(try playing it.instead of HS), I use healing surge, eviscerate combo all the time
As for healing surge, stage 2 is a good heal stage 3 is a great heal
What healing sig does is give wars good sustain food against condi damage were surge is best against spike damage.
Let’s just get this cleared up. Most of these “suggestions” are from non Warriors. Also, most of these suggestions are not WvW based. A WvW Warrior with a 20 CI cd is pretty absurd in large scale combat.
[AwM] of Jade Quarry.
Healing surge refills your adrenaline(try playing it.instead of HS), I use healing surge, eviscerate combo all the time
As for healing surge, stage 2 is a good heal stage 3 is a great heal
What healing sig does is give wars good sustain food against condi damage were surge is best against spike damage.
You can’t be serious on wasting healing for the adrenaline gain. Unless you are talking about noob stomp or you are running with a group and you not getting hit. Either way this sentiment is not share among most. As I said there is a reason why warrior were the bottom of the barrel before healing signet buff. If healing surge is as good as you say, why was warrior’s sustain that bad before?
Healing surge refills your adrenaline(try playing it.instead of HS), I use healing surge, eviscerate combo all the time
As for healing surge, stage 2 is a good heal stage 3 is a great heal
What healing sig does is give wars good sustain food against condi damage were surge is best against spike damage.You can’t be serious on wasting healing for the adrenaline gain. Unless you are talking about noob stomp or you are running with a group and you not getting hit. Either way this sentiment is not share among most. As I said there is a reason why warrior were the bottom of the barrel before healing signet buff. If healing surge is as good as you say, why was warrior’s sustain that bad before?
Because the “healing signet buff” also came alongside Berserker’s Stance getting changed to be immunity to conditions and Cleansing Ire’s current functionality. Three massive improvements, only one of which had any relation to a healing skill which wasn’t taken before because it was just so much worse than Healing Surge.
First off, a disclaimer. I don’t main Warrior, I main necro. Yes, this does mean I have a biased opinion on this topic.
TLDR: Would adding a 20 second cooldown to Cleansing Ire’s cleanse be an unecessarily harsh nerf, or would it be justified and in line with ANet’s vision for the class?
yes, adding a 20 second internal cool down to cleansing ire is an unnecessary, unjustified nerf.
good necromancers can still put down warriors easily.
berserker stance only offers 8 or 10 seconds of protection, followed by 52 or 50 seconds of down time.
cleansing ire is fine, working as intended.
stop beating this dead horse.
it is time to let go of this.
Cleansing ire is more to the opponents advantage than the wariors. Lately I have removed all condition cleansing. I have specc’ed entirely into full glass canon. These are typical results I see when I do this.
100B on ele=14k damage
evis on thief=9K
Whirlwind on warrior=6.5k
I literally only require an up front knockdown and the immunities provided by endure pain/berserker stance to plug out an enormous amount of damage. If your running under 18K health after a dose or 100b>whirlwind>rush>shield bash>evis you’re basically either in downstate, or so close to it that a couple more hits and your downed.
With hoelbrak runes that provides enough condition duration reduction to ensure 70% of the time I will get those last hits, even if they’re AA which will hot for approx 2k a pop.
Cleansing ire investment reduces warrior damage output by a significant amount.
Just food for thought. be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. Remove and/or alter cleansing ire and you’re just going to face full DPS builds that will specc for downing you in under 10 seconds and avoid any sort of sustained battles in favor of faceroll builds.
I’m just going to ask you one single question: “Does adrenaline counters warrior’s own traits/mechanic?”
I’m asking you this question for a specific reason, it’s related to another profession that I play often.
Yes it does, on certain build, traits, skills.
For example:
Berserker’s Power gives damage at higher adrenaline, this prevents burst from ever being used in PvE.Healing Surge, adrenaline need to be stage 3 in order for the heal to be respectable, once again prevents burst from being used.
Any passive bonus on adrenaline is a counter to warrior’s own skills,
Now you can argue that passive bonus are bonus, but keep in mind, warrior’s actually need these bonus to do ok. DPS wise warrior is mediocre even with Berserker’s Power. Healing Surge is a joke without high adrenaline. It’s ok with full adrenaline. There is a reason why warriors were bottom of the barrel before the healing signet buff.
Healing surge refills your adrenaline(try playing it.instead of HS), I use healing surge, eviscerate combo all the time
As for healing surge, stage 2 is a good heal stage 3 is a great heal
What healing sig does is give wars good sustain food against condi damage were surge is best against spike damage.
Yes Healing Surge refills your adrenaline bars. But if you use Healing Surge to refill your adrenaline then you wasted a heal (a low heal because you must be without adrenaline to use the heal for that = pitty heal) and you are vulnerable to all sorce of damage for 30 sec (sustented damage or burst damage) or you heal a good amount but then you dont gain any adrenaline because you have already full adrenaline.
Healing Surge works against the warrior.
Because the “healing signet buff” also came alongside Berserker’s Stance getting changed to be immunity to conditions and Cleansing Ire’s current functionality. Three massive improvements, only one of which had any relation to a healing skill which wasn’t taken before because it was just so much worse than Healing Surge.
You say this because you are a Necro, a condition heavy Necro. Before the “healing signet buff”, there isn’t a huge amount of conditional users like it is today. Warrior lack sustain against other power builds, in which neither Berserker’s Stance change or CI change really enters the argument here. Both of these changes were more for the soft CC done to the warriors. This didn’t change the fact that Healing Surge heals were not enough.
With that said, why are you complaining about CI. There is no way CI can cleanse more conditions than any respectable conditional user can apply. I say that as a condition warrior. Yes I mainly play one in pvp and wvw. CI never ever bothers me. And guess who I am weak against? Yes other conditional users (warriors, necro, ranger, eng, Mesmer), not any power users with CI, and Berserker’s Stance. And yes I have CI + LB + Berserker’s Stance, and nope I cannot cleanse the amount of conditions put onto me.
If you actually have problem with CI, maybe just maybe you sure look at your play style, and your build, or even your own class. It seems only Necro has problem with CI as well.
If you want to change CI, change the conditional damage output first. I say that as a condition warrior.
Here’s the way I see thing happening if Cleansing Ire gets an ICD on cleanse:
1. Warriors become less popular for a while as people whine about how they have no cleansing options.
2. Some people adapt, realizing that they do, in fact, have cleansing options.
3. Several months later, the new “meta” builds incorporate some alternative cleansing options or admit to having a weakness to conditions.
4. People realize that actual weaknesses should exist in every build. If they don’t have actual weaknesses, they shouldn’t have actual strengths either.
Granted, step 4 will never happen with the vast majority, because they always want their own build to not have weaknesses.
But, given that the following exist for Warrior condition cleansing, but are never used because CI makes them unnecessary, saying “no other options” is flat-out false.
Charge: removes Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize
Mending (3 conditions removed, 20 second cooldown)
Signet of Stamina (all conditions removed, 45 second cooldown, useful passive to let you avoid applications more often)
“Shake it Off!” (1 condition removed AoE, stunbreak, 20 second cooldown, will remove Fear+1 condition)
Restorative Strength (activating a heal skill removes cripple, chill, immobilize, and weakness, applies before healing skill’s effects, so Mending removes those 4 plus 3 others)
Shrug it Off (automatic “Shake it Off!” when affected by 2 or more conditions)
Quick Breathing (Warhorn skills convert a condition to a boon)
If you’re that worried about conditions, you have options aplenty. Heck, 2 points in the Power line + Mending gives you a potential 7 condition cleanse on a 20 second cooldown. That’s insanely efficient.