Guild Wars 2

TL;DR – Adrenaline Spent and CI Proc on a burst miss, -or- No Adrenaline Spent and No CI Proc on a burst miss. Just not the current setup, which is Adrenaline Spent and No CI Proc on a burst miss.

I actually would be fine with CI only activating on hit, except for the fact that many times the burst skill miss is not the warriors fault. It’s not a failure to set up properly, it’s that spammable blinds/evades/aegis all exist.

It requires very little skill to spam blinds/evades/aegis, and many of these moves are on a faster cast timer than burst skills.

The problem with CI requiring a hit is not the skill required to land the hit but rather the sometimes unavoidable misses when using your burst skill. The chance of an unfortunate and no-fault miss varies greatly from weapon to weapon.

Here are the two obvious extremes:

Longbow Combust – Always hits

Hammer Earthshaker – LONG semi-random precast, long obvious animation, easily dodged, often blind spammed, many times by AoE blinds not even aimed at the warrior.

So we cannot control what happens after we start the cast for earthshaker

Yet with cleansing ire only functioning on hit we still get penalized for what happens after we cast earthshaker

Additionally, adrenaline is spent on a hit OR a miss, since the old change to how adrenaline worked. (It also decays FAR too soon/quickly out of combat, but thats for a different topic.)

If Warriors are going to continue to lose Adrenaline on a miss, the mere expenditure of the adrenaline should proc Cleansing Ire.

If Cleansing Ire will not proc on a miss, then Warriors should keep the adrenaline spent on a missed burst.

Right now it’s the worst of both worlds. It should not be this way.

No offense, if you get dodged/ hit when blinded, it means you got out-played and it’s totally your fault. Burst has a CD of 7~8.5 seconds depending on build, and each weapon shares a separate CD.

If you want burst to land, you have to out-maneuver your opponents.
Just because you can’t do it doesn’t mean it needs a buff to solve your issue. CI has no ICD because they want Warriors to use skills for the reward of huge active cleansing. If you want the brainless version of CI, then there should be an ICD of 15~20 seconds on it to match for all other classes. If you find the “active cleansing” too hard for you to manage, you can try the new Brawler Defense which only requires you to spam switching weapon by abusing FH.

Toxsa.2701:

No offense, if you get dodged/ hit when blinded, it means you got out-played and it’s totally your fault.

I dont think you read my post, since I DIRECTLY addressed your concern in my opening. Allow me to quote myself since you clearly only read what you wanted to read:

we cannot control what happens after we start the cast for earthshaker

Yet with cleansing ire only functioning on hit we still get penalized for what happens after we cast earthshaker

So, how exactly is it “my fault” that the burst skill has an inconsistent activation/precast timer, has a bug where it auto-misses targets on slight inclines (like hills and stairs), and an extremely long and obvious animation? Please, by all means, explain how these issues are directly my fault.

I also don’t think you’ve experienced the overabundance of blind-spam combined with the lengthy activation, and animation, of some burst skills. There are plenty of times that a warrior plays perfectly, and yet still gets blinded mid-earthshaker leap, by an AoE blind that was meant for someone else, or was just being spammed just because. That’s not outplaying, thats the reverse: skill spamming.

The issue im talking about is NOT a hypothetical one, it’s the exact reason why so many Warriors feel tethered to longbow and its unmissable burst skill.

how about a new grandmaster trait that activates signet of might active effect when a burst skill is activated. sounds strong but it fits the warrior theme and would synergize with signet traits. and synergy is something warriors desperately need.

Brawl.5178:

how about a new grandmaster trait that activates signet of might active effect when a burst skill is activated. sounds strong but it fits the warrior theme and would synergize with signet traits. and synergy is something warriors desperately need.

I appreciate the constructive idea, but there are 2 small speedbumps:
1) SoMight doesnt counter blinds
2) There’s a SoMight trait in arms when striking low health foes in the next patch, so it’s unlikely they’ll have 2

I fail to see the problem here … other classes miss with their abilities (or are blocked) by the very same things.

If your issue is losing adrenaline when you miss … please talk to the Mesmer community about losing Illusions to random AOEs/Cleaves that “whoops” them to death before they can even be used in a shatter that can miss, have its illusions be “whoops’d” to death as they run in to try to shatter, etc. etc.

Lose adrenaline because some noob joined the fight and spammed his auto-attack .. then come back and complain about it ;-)

I see your point. what about something like, when you miss gain immunity to blindness for 2 or 3 seconds lol.

Also as far as using the Mesmer as an example, lets be honest. clones and phantasms also get any boons being pushed out around them, they catch aoe heals and any other buffs. Add to that Mesmer traits that basically punish you for touching them such as adding retaliation and applying damage confusion or torment when they die. All the while the Mesmer is auto attacking you from a safe distance because throwing clones out poses no threat to the Mesmer yet still has all the potential to burst for way more damage.
Im honestly not trying to be rude, but mesmers are playing a whole different game when compared to a warrior.

Since you’re talking about post-specialization:

• On-clone death traits are now gone
• Phantasms don’t have perma-retal
• Illusions gaining heals isn’t exactly great … especially paper clones.

If you want immunity to blind … Zerker stance … blind is a condition.
If you want immunity to blocks … Signet of Might … unblockable works.

While I agree that Mesmer plays differently from warrior, it too suffers from blind, block, etc.

Do you know what happens when a Mesmer summons a phantasm while they have blind on them? Full cooldown and nothing summoned. The cast can also be interrupted. The phantasm can also be killed before it attacks. The phantasm summon can be LOS or outranged. The phantasm’s attack can be blocked/dodged, outranged, or LOS’d.
… this isn’t to say it sucks being a Mesmer, but there is counterplay.

Blinds and blocks are supposed to be used against big hits … that’s the best use for them. Ignore Mesmer and look at other classes. They are also affected by blocks, blinds, etc.. I don’t see why you think Warrior should be the exception.

What is wrong with rewarding someone for proper use of block/dodge/blind/etc. ?

What is wrong with letting the mechanics punish someone for using a skill while blind or while their target is blocking/dodging/invuln/etc.?

If you do well, be rewarded. If you mess up, sorry, there are consequences for that.

Sebrent.3625:

What is wrong with rewarding someone for proper use of block/dodge/blind/etc. ?

What is wrong with letting the mechanics punish someone for using a skill while blind or while their target is blocking/dodging/invuln/etc.?

If you do well, be rewarded. If you mess up, sorry, there are consequences for that.

Is no one even bothering to read my initial post before hitting reply?

Dand.8231:

It requires very little skill to spam blinds/evades/aegis, and many of these moves are on a faster cast timer than burst skills.

cannot control what happens after we start the cast for earthshaker

still get penalized for what happens after we cast earthshaker

Agree, or disagree with me: thats fine. But not reading at all, making a point that’s already been addressed, and trying to hijack the thread to complain about mesmers? Wrong subforum; you’re lost. In fact, get lost.

I don’t disagree, however these talking points have been beat into the ground. Welcome to the forums. We argued this like 100 times already. The way you described it is how it used to work. Warrior got nerfed bcuz some guy who played a engi or somthing at a video game show that anet was at complained becasue he was bad. and ANET listen to him bcuz they wanted to throw warriors under the buss bcuz they got tired of rangers complaining about getting wrecked bcuz they were bad.

Dand.8231:

Sebrent.3625:

What is wrong with rewarding someone for proper use of block/dodge/blind/etc. ?

What is wrong with letting the mechanics punish someone for using a skill while blind or while their target is blocking/dodging/invuln/etc.?

If you do well, be rewarded. If you mess up, sorry, there are consequences for that.

Is no one even bothering to read my initial post before hitting reply?

Dand.8231:

It requires very little skill to spam blinds/evades/aegis, and many of these moves are on a faster cast timer than burst skills.

cannot control what happens after we start the cast for earthshaker

still get penalized for what happens after we cast earthshaker

Agree, or disagree with me: thats fine. But not reading at all, making a point that’s already been addressed, and trying to hijack the thread to complain about mesmers? Wrong subforum; you’re lost. In fact, get lost.

There are lots of things mesmer have that cannot be compared to warrior.
Mesmers can burst from stealth, you see the warrior all the time and all their bursts.

If a mesmer is close to the target and place their clones near, the big burst its almost instant, warrior burst have all big animations even when your close and are a lot easier to react.

We could have that too, the closer you are to the target, the quicker is the burst. I believe that could be a solution to your problem.

My recommendation: ditch CI all together, embrace shout heal do 60066 GS + hammer, use trooper rune.

Trooper + 5 shout + brawler’s recovery = 11 to 14 condi clear every 20 to 30 sec. Even with 4 shouts + physical, you still got 10 to 13 condi clear.

Dand.8231:

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Ignore Toxsa, hes playing ranger with autopilot on cleansing 3 condi/10sec just by picking up one trait.

skowcia.8257:

Dand.8231:

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Ignore Toxsa, hes playing ranger with autopilot on cleansing 3 condi/10sec just by picking up one trait.

LOL. Epidemic Bond is a horrible cleanse mind you. By the time it helps you get rid of immobilize you’re already dead. Clearly another clueless Warrior folk who has no idea how other classes are like. CI is 10 times better than EB. Go ask that in ranger’s forum or PVP forum and everyone will agree.

Toxsa.2701:

skowcia.8257:

Dand.8231:

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Ignore Toxsa, hes playing ranger with autopilot on cleansing 3 condi/10sec just by picking up one trait.

LOL. Epidemic Bond is a horrible cleanse mind you. By the time it helps you get rid of immobilize you’re already dead. Clearly another clueless Warrior folk who has no idea how other classes are like. CI is 10 times better than EB. Go ask that in ranger’s forum or PVP forum and everyone will agree.

Except i left warrior already – in another words abandoned ship as i am not going to play shoutjunk. I have ranger, playing it and doing well without condi cleanse at all (i multiclass actually). Its better to have passive cleanse every 10sec than something which might not work at all without longbow as someone blind you – and thats the funny part about it. How condi removal can be countered by a condition? Imagine yourself casting survival skill to clean condi but someone just blinded you and it dindt worked. Are you telling me you would be fine with that? Or casting virtue of resolve just to see it fail cause someone blinded you..

If a burst skill landed CI should proc off before damage part so that it can cleanse conditions and if blind happen to be one of them also deal damage. As long CI is the way it is warrior without lb wont be viable

Toxsa.2701:

LOL. Epidemic Bond is a horrible cleanse mind you. By the time it helps you get rid of immobilize you’re already dead. Clearly another clueless Warrior folk who has no idea how other classes are like. CI is 10 times better than EB. Go ask that in ranger’s forum or PVP forum and everyone will agree.

Ignoring for a moment that you’re completely out to lunch on Fast Hands, what’s bad about Empathic Bond. I don’t have ranger (one of two classes I don’t have), but it looks alright to me.

CI is an excellent cleanse, and on paper EB seems just behind it. CI has the advantage of a shorter cd and the ability to choose when to use it (which will be less important post changes). EB seems to have the advantage of not having to think about it, no need to balance best time to clear against best time to burst, no qualifying criteria (i.e. no equivalent to adren build), and no chance of missing.

What makes it horrible?

Wilderness Knowledge, it’s direct competitor, doesn’t look bad either.

@Dand
The community says all warriors are OP and don’t deserve any changes except for blanket nerfs to every warrior build. This is what you get by making an actual constructive suggestion. Leave now before it’s too late.

The best part is that buffing cleansing ire would actually, once all things are settled, nerf shoutbow- the only actual OP warrior build. Non-longbow become viable for condi cleanse= other warrior builds get better, ArenaNet can change shoutbow without leaving warriors without any viable builds (eg. like we were at release and esp post-Frenzy nerf)

But no, we can’t have that. That would be buffing warrior. What a horrible idea.

Choppy.4183:

Toxsa.2701:

LOL. Epidemic Bond is a horrible cleanse mind you. By the time it helps you get rid of immobilize you’re already dead. Clearly another clueless Warrior folk who has no idea how other classes are like. CI is 10 times better than EB. Go ask that in ranger’s forum or PVP forum and everyone will agree.

Ignoring for a moment that you’re completely out to lunch on Fast Hands, what’s bad about Empathic Bond. I don’t have ranger (one of two classes I don’t have), but it looks alright to me.

CI is an excellent cleanse, and on paper EB seems just behind it. CI has the advantage of a shorter cd and the ability to choose when to use it (which will be less important post changes). EB seems to have the advantage of not having to think about it, no need to balance best time to clear against best time to burst, no qualifying criteria (i.e. no equivalent to adren build), and no chance of missing.

What makes it horrible?

Wilderness Knowledge, it’s direct competitor, doesn’t look bad either.

10 seconds in PVP is life or death. On demand cleanse is miles away from the RNG cleanse. If you need to wait potentially more than 5 seconds until your next random cleanse proc, you are as well as dead in most situations. The best example I mentioned is the cast of immobilize. That’s why if given the choice between EB and WK, WK will be picked 100% the time unless for some reason the person is running 0 survival skills. Well, if we can actually see the timer in our tool tip, it may be another story though. Not to mention the transfer condition is basically just killing your pet quickly too. Pet has 0 method of removing condition other than swap it all, which is on a 20 CD.

Still good, imo (certainly not horrible), but I’d likely choose the active as well.

@Toxsa
Same logic can be applied to CI with non-bow weapons: If you have to wait more than 5 seconds until the target runs out of dodges and you can land your F1, you will probably die.

Toxsa.2701:

No offense, if you get dodged/ hit when blinded, it means you got out-played and it’s totally your fault. Burst has a CD of 7~8.5 seconds depending on build, and each weapon shares a separate CD.

If you want burst to land, you have to out-maneuver your opponents.
Just because you can’t do it doesn’t mean it needs a buff to solve your issue. CI has no ICD because they want Warriors to use skills for the reward of huge active cleansing. If you want the brainless version of CI, then there should be an ICD of 15~20 seconds on it to match for all other classes. If you find the “active cleansing” too hard for you to manage, you can try the new Brawler Defense which only requires you to spam switching weapon by abusing FH.

I dont understand, you are dodging/blinding my hammerstun cuz of the stun and damage incoming or just to not let me resolve the condition?
If you are dodging it cuz of the damage/stun, well done i couldnt outplay you, but if is
the second thing, its kinda stupid since resolving condition should be a defensive skill, would be like if i can blind mantra of resolve or block it with aegis, or dodge it, and shouldnt happen.

I already lost my adrenaline and my chance to land a burst, why shouldnt even have the resolve from a trait? The answer is just go longbow and who cares about the blind/aegis/dodge. Seems logic, since this game is becoming more and more go for the ranged weapon hard skill.

And in another point of wiew, would you not dodge my hammerstun cuz you know i will resolve 3 condition even if you dodge?

And further more, all the others resolve condition skills are immediate/no need to hit or ranged skills, so to talk honestly, just to get close enough to be able to land a burst melee skill when i am full of condition is already itself an outplay, that should be rewarded by at least CI proc on use, so that your concept of beeing skilled with “blind/aegis block/dodge on easy animation” will still be rewarded by avoiding the burst.

Sebrent.3625:

I fail to see the problem here … other classes miss with their abilities (or are blocked) by the very same things.

You are aware that mesmer phantasm summon cant be dodged? You can dodge their attacks, but cant dodge their summons, and even cant block it with aegis.
Means even if i read your animation, i cant avoid your trait cleansing conflagration to proc and solve a condition when casting phantasmal mage. Why you should avoid my “Grandmaster trait” to proc cuz of a dodge or aegis…

People should stop making comparing, it just show bad knowledge of the game and it just show more and more that CI should proc on use.

@Dand:
I did read your OP … you have a problem with the fact that missing a burst skill is punishing in that it removes adrenaline AND that missing a burst skill doesn’t cleanse with Cleansing Ire.

Essentially, you’re complaining that traiting for landing burst skills is wasted if you don’t land your burst skills.

I was not complaining about Mesmer mechanic. I was showing you the parallels. Here’s another one … you can’t control what happens in that time between casting Earthshaker and when it actually hits … neither can Mesmers with their illusions. In fact, that can be a drastically longer time depending on the illusions’ distance from the target … but you don’t see people complaining that their illusions shouldn’t be consumed when they miss those shatters.

@silentnight warrior.2714
You are quite correct that Mesmer can make use of stealth for a myriad number of things, but it doesn’t change that missing with their skills is punished just the same. The game is also supposed to be balanced around each class’s strengths and weaknesses. Each class does/doesn’t have things others classes have.

On a side-note: I too dislike burst from stealth as I prefer more counterplay … but that’s a separate topic. Hit me up if you want to have a chat about it. I’ll rarely ever be against suggestions that support more counterplay.

@Shala:
Yep, I’m well aware of the ways to counter Mesmer skills. You do realize that the Torch cooldowns are both a base 30s cooldown while burst skills are a base 10 (about to be less). They also only remove a single condition, not up to 3. Sure, Cleansing Ire requires adrenaline … but between normal generation and Cleansing Ire giving it each time you’re hit it’s not that big of an issue adrenaline for burst skills. Otherwise Cleansing Ire wouldn’t be seen as nearly as strong as it currently is.

Cleansing Ire effectively allows you to cleanse 1 to 3 conditions twice in less than 10s; dependent on adrenaline-generation, of course. If you don’t realize that’s a bit too much without needing to hit, especially from a class that gains adrenaline when hit or hitting … and able to be immune to conditions (more ways after this Tues) … then I don’t think we can talk on the same level.

Heck, it isn’t like you can weapon swap every 5s to remove a condition … oh wait … another cleanse that is drastically lower CD than most, if not all, other cleanse options.

You’re barely going to be able to generate a full bar of adrenaline in PvP in less than the CD of the your adrenaline skill. You’re not going to use it twice in a ten second window without zerker stance or signet of fury.

But hey, you obviously don’t play warrior so I can’t really fault you on not knowing that basic information.

Lol. There’s always someone that disagrees and says: “you obviously don’t play Warrior, Mesmer, Ranger, etc.” if someone disagrees with them. Doesn’t matter which subforum. If you guys were correct, no one but you would play whatever class you’re talking about.

If you can’t generate 10+ adrenaline twice in 10 seconds when you have Cleansing Ire, Fast Hands, and Versatile Rage … then I think we know where your problem is.

If you’re restricting yourself to only using your burst skills with 3 bars when you have Cleansing Ire and damaging conditions stacked on you … then I think we found a different problem you’re having.

Sebrent.3625:

Lol. There’s always someone that disagrees and says: “you obviously don’t play Warrior, Mesmer, Ranger, etc.” if someone disagrees with them. Doesn’t matter which subforum. If you guys were correct, no one but you would play whatever class you’re talking about.

If you can’t generate 10+ adrenaline twice in 10 seconds when you have Cleansing Ire, Fast Hands, and Versatile Rage … then I think we know where your problem is.

If you’re restricting yourself to only using your burst skills with 3 bars when you have Cleansing Ire and damaging conditions stacked on you … then I think we found a different problem you’re having.

So removing 2 conditions in a 10s period is OP now?

No, I don’t think just being able to remove 2 conditions in a 10s period is OP … but …

In a single Warrior build that we’re pigeon-holed into in sPvP and WvW metas …

• Cleaning Ire: Removing on demand up to three conditions up to two times with less cooldowns than 8 seconds … requires adrenaline but drastically increases adrenaline gain and we have some other traits to help with that …
• Brawler’s Recovert: Removing on demand one condition every five seconds … also gives 5 adrenaline to feed into the first bullet
• Quick Breathing + Charge: Removing on demand one condition every twelve seconds … on top of the Chill/Cripple/Immobilize that it removes
• Quick Breathing + Call To Arms: Removing on demand one condition every sixteen seconds
• Vigorous Shouts + Soldier Runes: Removing on demand one condition every time a shout is used as well as healing from that shout and gaining 5 adrenaline (feeding into the first bullet)

All of those except the first just auto-magically work when we use them.

I know Guild Wars has its build wars, but that’s a bit much for a condition build to contend with … I wonder why our Warriors are pigeon-holed into shout builds in the sPvP and WvW metas …

I still don’t see what the problem is with being rewarded when you succeed and getting no “consolation prize” when you fail.

Cleansing Ire work much more badly than what you said, it doesnt remove condi every 8 seconds, cuz it require the opponent to be in range of the burst and not kiting no dodging no blocking no blinding, usualy it works every 16 to 20 seconds depending on how much the opponent is dummi. (we are assuming we are not forced to use bow, that would totaly change the cd of the CI)

And we can also discuss on how many times a grandmaster trait like chaotic interruption procs with random easy daze aoe while giving a tons of boons and a tons of condition each times and compare it to our 3 condi cleanse procs only on an outplay manovre with burst.

Now you should also know that running melee makes you much more vulnerable to condi (try melee against a condi engi and try to range it with a mesmer, you will notice the difference of how many condi you get in this 2 case), thats why all the warriors are forced to play the cleansing bot shoutbow, making them a boring class with no dps or any skill, in fact warrior is an healing bot.

Does people really like shoutbow? Cuz seems like if there’s a chance to avoid beeing bow meta dependant they dont want it! And talking about build diversity, every time i join a game with no bow equipped, my team tell me “your build is bad”and if we lose was because i didnt had bow , something i would never say to any other class depending on their weapon choice. In fact this trait not working properly is the main reason of the missing build diversity in warriors.

If you’re using one burst skill every 16 to 20 seconds, then, yes, you have an issue with being kited.

Chaotic Interruption works on-interrupt, not on-daze. There’s a difference. It also isn’t a cleanse. It also doesn’t do anything if you miss, are blocked, are dodged, etc.. No consolation prize.

Yep, melee is often “more dangerous” than ranged, but Warrior is not the only class in the game that melees. Even the three light armor classes mix it up in melee some.

Shoutbow is the pigeonhole because of how strong it is. A single class is providing that much condition cleanse … that’s useful for sPvP and WvW. Then that same class has a big AOE on a low cooldown with a decent duration that covers an sPvP point and allows for some very nice might-stacking. On top of that it has sustain. It’s ideal for that game mode.

But you don’t see all Warriors needing that when roaming (the non-meta WvW). Plenty of Roaming Warrior builds don’t take a bow and do quite well despite the fact that many roaming builds across all classes are condi builds.

Your teams telling you you’re bad is a separate issue. We don’t know how good/bad you are. We don’t know how smart/stupid your teams are. It tells us little, if anything.

Essentially, the OP, you, and some others are asking for a powerful trait to take even less skill to use. I don’t think that’s a great idea. Let’s keep some powerful things requiring skill. I don’t see the issue with that.