Guild Wars 2

Still not 80 yet but almost there. I see that a lot of players in LFG want people with high attack power and to rush through explorable dungeons for a quick finish. But are defense warriors ok at all in a casual explorable run or do people just want zerkers today?

If you start with a mainly zerker build (certainly equipment) you can slot more defensive utilities and weapons if you need more durability.

Plain truth is most dungeons do not require much in the way of defense. People want to speed through dungeons because they do them often and just want the loot. In causal pugs you can run whatever stats you like (though condi damage is generally a bad idea). As you play more PvE there is a good chance you will run with less and less defense.

Please understand that you do not have to run full zerker to be effective but that as you play you will likely head more in this direction.

Play the way you enjoy!

Personally I feel that if you’re not confident in dodging and knowing tells for bosses, you want to pack a little more defense. If you go full zerk without said abilities you just die a lot.

Faranox.4217:

Play the way you enjoy!

This is true, I mean there’s no way that you HAVE to play but playing an extremely high health pool or tanky isn’t exactly that helpful to the team. I personally play the full zerker glass stuff, which I find fun because I’m always rolling, using fast hands, putting out a bunch of DPS, and all that good stuff.

Just pick up Knights armor and weapons to add survivability when you are not all that familiar with the content yet. Don’t join groups that require full Berserker, and you will be fine. It’s also fine and recommended to run some healing utilities, like a healing banner or healing shout trait, but don’t over-do it and go 100% defense. You should be able to take down enemies by yourself without taking an eternity, and without raising suspicion.

Faranox.4217:

Play the way you enjoy!

How selfish, playing a sub-optimal build is wasting the 4 other people in your group’s time.

Faranox.4217:

Play the way you enjoy!

At the expense of 4 other players.

I say, play the way you feel the safest. Going full zerker requires experience and certain skills, not everyone gets it and you certainly wont get it without having run the dungeons several times.

A group will be more happy that you have moderate defense for survival instead of going down constantly and being forced to be ressed or end up dying. Both of those outcomes means less DPS anyway, cause you nor anyone healing you ain’t doing any DPS at that moment.

I’ve found that with high defense, you -can- tank, and by doing that, you can help your team have 100% focus on DPSing. It’s not recommended as warrior, personally better as guardian, but it’s not impossible and some friends like my semi-tanking characters for the relief of a more relaxing run.

There are plenty of casual groups who don’t care who is running what. Unfortunately that also means you are stuck with casual groups until you take the plunge and go full DPS if you want to jump into speedruns. Your call.

Pubs don’t care much about the type of build you bring. Just be sure not to join any fractal group with specific demands if you don’t meet the requirements. IE zerker, 55+AR, speed run.

If none of that is present then you’re free to run w/e you want and people should not be joining the group expecting an experienced speed run. Nothing selfish about it.

also toughness plays a part in aggro draw, so you may end up dodging more in the end anyway

Hi,

Flissy.4093:

Faranox.4217:

Play the way you enjoy!

How selfish, playing a sub-optimal build is wasting the 4 other people in your group’s time.

Or the opposite.

I have seen players that, as you suggest, would go for an ‘optimized’ build as a warrior, despite the fact that they would not like it. They thought it’d be better for the group. But more often than not, it was worse – because such players usually do not master their ‘optimized’ builds. How many times have I seen tons of berserker warriors wipe the floor, because they could not simply observe a mob attack and dodge/block it? Such players are the worse for a group, because they disturb the rhythm of the other players, forcing them to consider reviving, thus leading to more errors.

Optimization comes not only from the theoretical capacity of a build, but also from the ability of the player to leverage it. And of course, this has to be in accordance to the theoretical capacity of the builds of the other members of the group, and their own capacity to leverage theirs as well, in their own regard. That one fails to see that always puzzles me.

So, why force oneself to play a build one doesn’t like at all? Guild Wars 2 is a game, for which money has been spent, and the primary purpose of such should be… to simply have fun.

Fun can come from perfect team-playing of course, but also from helping others, or even from epic failures. I remember CoE path 2, when we used to aim and throw golems at each other, because it was the only fun thing remaining about the path, as the rest had become boring, after tens of runs.

Regards.

It’s more selfish if the group has to spend 1/2 the fights rezzing the “full zerker” guy cause he specced the meta without actually knowing how to play it. Baby steps man, baby steps. Don’t listen to people and dive right in with full zerker cause if you spend 1/2 the time downed, you will prolly get the boot or at least people will remember your fail and be wary next time they group with you.

Me personally I play full zerker guard but then again I’ve played it for awhile. I also got a full zerker warrior too but again, I’ve played full zerker and had time to get used to it.

I say start out with a set of knight’s armor with all zerker trinkets. You cant go wrong there and you will still do respectable dps. Then as you amass more tokens from dungeon runs, slowly pick up zerker armor pieces and swap them out, I would just stay with full zerker trinkets and back item though, just swap out the armor as needed.

You do realize that the zerker advocates are just going to tell you that it’s selfish to play at all if you’re not good enough to play full zerker and survive, right?

Let’s face it – playing anything other than a zerker warrior in a dungeon is a bad idea. Defensive warriors are for WvW not PvE. Even people who say ‘play how you want’ are fooling themselves. It will be a bad experience and you will waste a lot of your time and others time by the group quitting mid-dungeon.
The reality now is that you need to study the dungeon on youtube before you ever even attempt to step foot in one. Not only that but you had better watch it multiple times and be aware of the difference between a pro team doing the path and how “good” PUGS do it. Know all the turns and mechanics before ever doing it the first time.
There are so many one-hit type of mechanics in dungeons that the only defense is to dodge anyway – you couldn’t bring enough defense to live through some of those hits. In dungeons the best thing to do is burn the bad guy down before he destroys you. That takes multiple people with power, precision, and critical damage.
Study the path beforehand, use power, precision, crit damage gear, use (at least) all exotic gear, and let the people know at the beginning that you are new but have watched the path online and you will have an enjoyable dungeon run. If you don’t do these things you will end up in a group that keeps disbanding and having people rage on and on and on – making a bad experience for everyone.

I wouldn’t worry about it. I would caution you that if your thinking of a tank/damage soak type of build to keep an open mind. If you let yourself get trapped into the mentality of only soaking damage/aggro then no you won’t be very useful. Good defensive builds are usually great because of of the combination good defense and utility.

On a sliding scale of group quality, higher being better.

“path x” – 10
“path x 80’s only” – 8
“path x zerker only” – 3
“path x heavy only” – 3
“path x heavy zerker or kick” – 1

It’s been my experience that groups that try to be restrictive suck and are started by people that need to be carried. Anything where they threaten people is usually a guaranteed fail run.

Einherjar.5293:

But are defense warriors ok at all in a casual explorable run or do people just want zerkers today?

Dead weight.

Full berserker is the only right answer in PvE. If you’re not full berserker you’re doing it wrong.

Edit: Before the mental diarrhea above spreads any further, regarding parties and “who to party with”, the answer is, as usual, simple:

• The most efficient way to PvE in this game is full berserker. Anything else is inferior performance wise. This is not an opinion, this is a demonstrable fact.
• That doesn’t mean that this is the way you want to play the game. You’re free to play how you like.
• PvE in this game is easy enough that you don’t need to “min-max” to simply complete it.
• The secret is to party with people like you. People that want to play the game the way you do. A proper party description, or a quick chat after you join a party, really helps. If you want a full zerker optimal party, put that in the description. Ask for gear checks. Kick people that don’t meet standards. If you want a chill party put that in the description. Kick people that start stressing and kittening about your performance.

If you join a party with a clear set of standards and goals you don’t match you’re either trolling or a kittening idiot.

It’s a game. Play however you like. Just don’t try to force people to play your way.

This is really simple.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Before the mental diarrhea above spreads any further, regarding parties and “who to party with”, the answer is, as usual, simple:

• The most efficient way to PvE in this game is full berserker. Anything else is inferior performance wise. This is not an opinion, this is a demonstrable fact.
• That doesn’t mean that this is the way you want to play the game. You’re free to play how you like.
• PvE in this game is easy enough that you don’t need to “min-max” to simply complete it.
• The secret is to party with people like you. People that want to play the game the way you do. A proper party description, or a quick chat after you join a party, really helps. If you want a full zerker optimal party, put that in the description. Ask for gear checks. Kick people that don’t meet standards. If you want a chill party put that in the description. Kick people that start stressing and kittening about your performance.

If you join a party with a clear set of standards and goals you don’t match you’re either trolling or a kittening idiot.

It’s a game. Play however you like. Just don’t try to force people to play your way.

This is really simple.

This needs stickying on every single kitten forum filter.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Full berserker is the only right answer in PvE. If you’re not full berserker you’re doing it wrong.

It’s a game. Play however you like. Just don’t try to force people to play your way.

Something doesn’t feel right here…If you’re playing for fun, and defensive build = fun. Doesn’t that make defensive build the right way?

Also, keep in mind that full zerker is only superior because of the added damage it provides. Losing 20% damage to be able to take a hit or two is well worth it to players not skilled enough to avoid a lot of the mechanics throughout dungeons/fractals. The only scenario where full zerker is guaranteed to be the superior choice is when the player never downs. If a bit of extra tankiness provides someone will longevity to survive throughout a battle when they normally would not with full zerker—zerker may no longer be the superior choice. Regardless of preference.

What I do agree on is that no one should join a group requesting for full zerker if they’re not using full zerker.

I say the lfg tool is mainly set for casual play, ie whatever build you like/can master. If you like something special like a full zerk speedrun it should be clearly stated.
I myself would never expect that to work though. Group up with guildies or trusted friends is the only way to be certain.
Don’t exclude people from the game by being elitists. I think that will only make yourself disappointed in the end.

it’s safer to not run defense, if two or three people in the team aren’t running DPS the zerkers will in most cases die and it will take forever for the boss to go down while the rest of the team are doing no damage. On the other hand if you have a full team of DPS who are optimised most dungeon bosses are dead in 10 to 20 seconds rather than up to 10 minutes.

Don’t overestimate pubs…Zerker or not, almost every boss isn’t going down in 10 to 20 seconds. And zero bosses are going down that quick in higher lvl fractals. It’s more like minutes, even with full zerker.

Kagamiku.9731:

ProxyDamage.9826:

Full berserker is the only right answer in PvE. If you’re not full berserker you’re doing it wrong.

It’s a game. Play however you like. Just don’t try to force people to play your way.

Something doesn’t feel right here…If you’re playing for fun, and defensive build = fun. Doesn’t that make defensive build the right way?

Fun is subjective, personal, and completely irrelevant in this kind of discussion. Some people have fun getting their genitals kicked.

That said, allow me to clarify: OP is asking if defense warriors are of any objective use or advantage: No. They are not. Performance wise, if you’re not going full berserker you’re simply doing it wrong.

Can you complete dungeons at all with it? Sure. Some people do naked runs. Does it bring any advantage? No. Same as naked runs. Is it fun? Irrelevant. Depends entirely on what you construe as “fun”.

Kagamiku.9731:

Also, keep in mind that full zerker is only superior because of the added damage it provides. Losing 20% damage to be able to take a hit or two is well worth it to players not skilled enough to avoid a lot of the mechanics throughout dungeons/fractals. The only scenario where full zerker is guaranteed to be the superior choice is when the player never downs. If a bit of extra tankiness provides someone will longevity to survive throughout a battle when they normally would not with full zerker—zerker may no longer be the superior choice. Regardless of preference.

No, zerker gear is better because there’s no reason for defensive play in PvE. Things you can tank you don’t need to, since you just maul them anyways, and things you’d want to tank you can’t anyways, since they hit too hard to be “tanked” – and don’t have to anyways as they can be dodged/avoided.

What you are talking about is a handicap.

Zerker is the superior choice as far as gear goes. Much like a bicycle with no training wheels offers better performance than a bike with training wheels. If you’re not good enough to run it, or have some physical disability that keeps you from being able to use zerker gear to it’s fullest potential, then yes, it’s better for you to play with a more defensive set. It’s still a handicap. It’s still underperforming.

ProxyDamage.9826:

If you’re not good enough to run it, or have some physical disability that keeps you from being able to use zerker gear to it’s fullest potential, then yes, it’s better for you to play with a more defensive set. It’s still a handicap. It’s still underperforming.

That pretty much agreed with everything I said. You may call it a “handicap” or whatever you must, but fact of the matter is that not every player can use zerker gear and use it to its fullest, or even close to its fullest potential. Somewhere along the line, zerker is no longer the “optimal” choice for them. And to tell those people to run zerker regardless of their ability is kind of silly. This is what most people fail to understand. Just because a certain build is “optimal” to an experienced player, it is not optimal to most casuals. To define “optimal” would be “the best result obtainable under specific conditions.” The conditions being, “player skill.” Optimal is not some universal entity that does not differ from person to person.

And I stopped bothering with dungeons some time ago, but I frequently do higher level fractals and 1-shot mechanics don’t really exist there. If you’re super glassy, a lot of things can 1-shot you— with some added tankyness, you can survive at least a hit from almost anything. So it does help.

Kagamiku.9731:

To define “optimal” would be “the best result obtainable under specific conditions.” The conditions being, “player skill.”

But if that player plays the berserker build, his skill might eventually raise to the required level. If you play with a handicap, you will never actually learn.
I’m sure that most players can play well enough, they just don’t want to go through the learning curve.

Honestly it is about figuring out where your comfortable with your DPS and defense. Generally i am fine running near full zerker guardian. The issue is how the class defends itself and how much DPS you are really doing. Speed runs are not the norm so many new players get caught up in the fact that a run says speed so they assume they can’t do it or need to conform. Truth is most runs are not speed runs and are runs formed by casual players for casual players. Getting a slightly slower run in when no one expects you to beat speed records means run what ever you like.

I will say this for the good of everyone run a power build and stay away from healing power. If you are going to go defensive then stick with PVT and phase it out as you get more comfortable you do not have to go full zerker or anything like it. Just note that if you go through paths where you never get lower than half health than it is fine to add more damage to your build.

I wonder how many of the ‘zerker or go home" advocates truly know how much time it saves on a run vs running a half/half build. I would be willing to bet in a dungeon it would save maybe 5 mins. This is assuming all things being equal like group makeup, skill levels etc. Like I said, I run full ascended zerker gear with legendaries on my guard and from what I’ve noticed, the damage difference is noticeable but not so glaring that if I wore knights gear, it would lengthen the run by an hour.

I’ve been playing since headstart and I do nothing but PVE dungeons and completed them all within a couple months of the game(even Arah P4 when it was truly a dps race) and since then dungeons have gotten easier and easier thanks to Anet. So this BS about you gotta watch videos and have full zerker and have a mouse with 76 buttons all hotkeyed and be able to play with 2 hands and 2 feet at the same time is just that, BS. Like others have said, the groups that require zerker or kick or anything like that are usually fail players who need to be carried. Play the way you like and have fun. If you aren’t having fun, wtf is the reason for even playing. Although I will agree, some builds are pretty bad for PVE. Mainly a full tank/defensive build since you don’t really tank in this game like other MMOs. But a partial is fine as long as you can stay alive and do dps. Better to do decent dps the whole time than good dps 1/4 the time and have the rest of the group have to stop dpsing to rez your sorry kitten .

I wonder how many of the ‘zerker or go home" advocates truly know how much time it saves on a run vs running a half/half build.

Well let’s see, I’ve cleared Arah p3 in a full zerker team in ~8:58, how long is your fastest run?

I’ve been playing since headstart and I do nothing but PVE dungeons and completed them all within a couple months of the game(even Arah P4 when it was truly a dps race)

Was it ever a DPS race? Five bearbows can kill Simin, I really doubt pre-nerf Simin was so hard that it was a DPS race.

Like others have said, the groups that require zerker or kick or anything like that are usually fail players who need to be carried.

Way to go and generalise people who just want smooth runs.

Play the way you like and have fun. If you aren’t having fun, wtf is the reason for even playing.

Because when you join an instance with a bad build, you’re wasting your group’s time, now I don’t know about you but I value both myself and other peoples’ time and don’t like to waste it by running some bad build.

ut a partial is fine as long as you can stay alive and do dps. Better to do decent dps the whole time than good dps 1/4 the time and have the rest of the group have to stop dpsing to rez your sorry kitten .

Well actually it’s not, because otherwise you end up with situations where a berserker user can sit in defeated state in a fight for X amount of time and still be averaging out to have higher DPS than someone using a low DPS setup.

TheGuy.3568:

I will say this for the good of everyone run a power build and stay away from healing power. If you are going to go defensive then stick with PVT and phase it out as you get more comfortable you do not have to go full zerker or anything like it. Just note that if you go through paths where you never get lower than half health than it is fine to add more damage to your build.

NO

If you feel you must run some defensive gear before you can work your way into zerk, run Knight’s. At least you will have some DPS.

Hi,

Was it ever a DPS race? Five bearbows can kill Simin, I really doubt pre-nerf Simin was so hard that it was a DPS race.

I did find that there was a big difference before and after the nerf – but your mileage may vary.

Because when you join an instance with a bad build, you’re wasting your group’s time, now I don’t know about you but I value both myself and other peoples’ time and don’t like to waste it by running some bad build.

No one has said that wasting others’ time should be done. I think that we all agree that this would be trolling, and would demonstrate a certain lack of respect to other participants.

Simply put, what we said is that the build, while evidently important, isn’t the only parameter of performance. The ability of the player to leverage the build is also essential. I would consider that a player entering an instance using berserker gear/build only, yet going down at every fight, surely is wasting my time. Wouldn’t you?

So I believe that it is better if people use a build with which they can maximize their performance, given their own skills, i.e. a build in line with their capacities. I’m only talking performance-wise here, fun being excluded, as the nature of what is fun varies across individuals.

As you have said though, I agree that one should never generalize, which is why I do not judge the people who only request things like “speed run, berserker only, gear check”. Otherwise, I’d have to loathe them, as the ones I first met wasted near 10 minutes before forming a group with which they were happy, then failed to evade the ice AoE at the start of CoE (going down at each of the three runs), then started to blame the group because the total run was too slow (~1 hour to complete all three paths).

Regards.

Portal Master.9146:

Let’s face it – playing anything other than a zerker warrior in a dungeon is a bad idea.

You work for AN, right?…

It all stems from high-level Fractals where maximum toughness and maximum vitality won’t save you. What does save you is high DPS where you kill the boss before your group runs out of cooldowns or makes a mistake – which can happen when the fight is prolonged.

Portal Master.9146:

Let’s face it – playing anything other than a zerker warrior in a dungeon is a bad idea. Defensive warriors are for WvW not PvE. Even people who say ‘play how you want’ are fooling themselves. It will be a bad experience and you will waste a lot of your time and others time by the group quitting mid-dungeon.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Full berserker is the only right answer in PvE. If you’re not full berserker you’re doing it wrong.

If you join a party with a clear set of standards and goals you don’t match you’re either trolling or a kittening idiot.

mahariel.4981:

But a partial is fine as long as you can stay alive and do dps. Better to do decent dps the whole time than good dps 1/4 the time and have the rest of the group have to stop dpsing to rez your sorry kitten .

Well actually it’s not, because otherwise you end up with situations where a berserker user can sit in defeated state in a fight for X amount of time and still be averaging out to have higher DPS than someone using a low DPS setup.

Follow this and you’ll be fine.