Guild Wars 2

There has been a lot of discussion lately about various problems with the existing Warrior trait lines. There are issues with trait line identity, synergy, and mandatory abilities.

The issues with our traits have been especially relevant with the introduction of the new Berserker. Many players are having a hard time incorporating the new specialization into viable builds, due to the aforementioned problems.

I’d like to create a thread where we can discuss problems, solutions, and changes to the core Warrior traits. This will (hopefully!) give the devs a place to find concentrated feedback specific to this issue, instead of sifting through the Berserker feedback thread (where they should be focused on problems with the actual Berserker, the Rage skills, etc).

I’ll start things off with the elephant in the room: Discipline & Fast Hands. Yes, this one has been discussed for eternity and we’re all tired of reading about it, but it has to be done.

Discipline feels mandatory for every single Warrior build, with the one exception being the very specific Phalanx Strength dungeon build. This means that every Warrior, in every game type, is taking Discipline. Whether they’re a greatsword user, a condition user, a dual-wielder, a shoutbow user – whatever – it doesn’t matter, they all include Discipline. This is true in PvE, sPvP, and WvW.

So, why is this the case? It happens because weapon swapping is integral to the Warrior playstyle, far more than any other class. We are punished for camping a single weapon, and our skills are designed and balanced around constantly swapping. This means that if you want to play your Warrior effectively, you need to be able to effectively weapon swap. The Fast Hands trait immediately becomes mandatory because of that. Warriors are incomplete without it.

This is a major problem because it destroys build diversity. It prohibits players from being creative and experimenting with new things, because you effectively only have two trait lines to work with. How much build diversity can really exist when you only have a choice of two lines, rather than three? This is the main reason the Berserker is struggling so much to integrate with the Warrior.

The 5-second weapon swap from Fast Hands needs to become an acknowledged Warrior class mechanic. The Warrior is supposedly a weapon master, but where is this actually demonstrated in-game?

In a single, game changing minor trait.

That doesn’t sound right to me. Baseline Fast Hands is an essential quality of life change, and I honestly think it needs to happen before the expansion releases. Just imagine the masses of new players who are frustrated trying to make the Berserker work and inevitably giving up. And if it doesn’t happen, the problem will persist with not only the Berserker, but every other future elite specialization.

Now, as far as balancing it goes, I don’t believe a baseline Fast Hands will actually have any tangible repercussions. This is simply because every Warrior already has it, and the Discipline tree will still be prominent in PvP for its other strengths.

Okay, so Fast Hands is out of the way. What about other issues?

Bad Traits.

Much of our class is plagued with bad traits, traits that aren’t used, and traits that are misplaced. I’d like to give my opinion on some of that.

Solid post Tipper, I tip my fedora to you good sir.

Strength

• Reckless dodge: I admit, this hits very hard for a minor adept trait. (talking about 4k dodge rolls when might stacked as a berserker warrior)
• Forceful Greatsword: Way too potent for a master trait. Perhaps remove the 10% damage increase and add an internal cooldown of 1 second per might stack, but increase might duration???

Arms

• Blademaster is completely lackluster in comparison to forceful greatsword which works on both spear and greatsword, whereas blademaster only works on swords. If this trait affected harpoon guns, people would consider using this.
• Unsuspecting foe is completely useless because it only works on stuns, and even then, you have a short window to attack your target. If this was broadened to something like “increased critical chance against foes with [CONDITION],” it would have more utility.
• Burst precision is useless since everyone has access to a sigil of intelligence which gives 100% critical chance on the next 3 attacks. Maybe give it some bleeding or something.

Defense

• Thick Skin: Not really sure why this is here and if it even works. It’s hardly noticeable and doesn’t synergize with the defense trait line which is based on mitigating damage as you take it. 90% is a high threshold and any warrior running a defense line is not going to be playing ranged. Warriors using the defense line will most likely be playing melee, therefore taking alot of damage.
• Sundering mace: 5 stacks of vulnerability for 10 seconds is pretty good, but considering the slow attack speed of a mace, the low range, and the short duration of daze/knockdown/launch/stun, this trait is rendered useless, unless I proc quickness somehow.
• Rousing resilience: I mentioned in another thread how useless this is considering that it requires you to break a stun to heal, and how stability will work against you, and some stun breakers like defy pain makes the 1000 toughness gain useless. I know the berserker’s elite is a self stun, so I’m not sure how that will work with this trait, but as it currently stands, it’s pretty awful in comparison to cleansing ire and last stand.

Tactics

• Quick Breathing / Vigorous shouts: I consider quick breathing before the trait overhaul when it had condition converting to boons more useful than a shout heal and it allowed for greater self sustain than a fixed heal amount from a shout. If anything I suggest that condition conversion is brought back and quick breathing and vigorous shouts swapped places in grandmaster and adept.
• Empowered: This trait doesn’t fit well with the rest of the traits which seemed more support based. Could be in the discipline line (swap with inspiring battle standard, maybe increase it to 2% per boon to keep it in line with it’s destruction of the empowered counterpart)
• Burning arrows: A weak additional 262 damage on your bow auto attack for a ‘master’ trait. Also doesn’t seem like it belongs here, could be in arms line, perhaps merging with blademaster somehow. Maybe replace it with more banner traits or something (example, more boons per banner like protection on banner of defense, fury from banner of discipline etc)
• Phalanx Strength: This became the bread and butter for a warrior in any dungeon / fractal environment, because it has no ICD, allowing warriors to quickly gain 25 stacks of might with no problem if used with forceful greatsword.
• Powerful Synergy: Requires a leap and an field, which the warrior don’t have alot of. Not much of a grandmaster trait in that sense. However if this affected more combo finishers (eg. blast) this would be very handy.
• Vigorous shouts: 1000 flat healing power with an additional point of HP per healing power. For a grandmaster. Just swap this with quick breathing and give us back conditions to boon conversion.

Discipline

• Inspiring battle standard: Swap this with empowered in tactics trait line and modify it’s values so it’s in line with destruction of empowered.
• Merciless Hammer: Kind of like unsuspecting foe and sundering mace, it’s hard to make use of this considering the short duration of CC effects and the slow cast time of the attacks. Rather than giving it a damage increase, how about a cleave increase? It would be nice if hammer range wasn’t 130 and mostly limited to 3 targets per strike. (eg. increase cleave range by 100 and strike 1 additional targets per attack)

This is a great thread. I second the baseline fast hands suggestion. I don’t have anything else to add other than that.

We really do need Fast Hands as a baseline perk. I’d say move Brawler’s Recovery to that Minor slot, to keep the trait line’s flavor centered on weapon swapping; not sure what to replace that with, though. Moving Burning Arrows to Discipline, I think, would be a good change as the other ranged weapon trait (Crack Shot) is also in the Discipline line – but that would leave kitten in Tactics. Perhaps a taunt on CC, similar to Revenants?

Give PS an internal CD or a fixed might duration, not affected by +boon duration.
Give one of the offensive banners to necro and call it totem.

There, I did it, fixed warrior in PvE. The class is balanced now.

#KappaPride

One more thought I just had was on the Arms trait Opportunist (gain fury when you immobilize a foe). This trait is quite nice when taken with Leg Specialist (immobilize on cripple) in Tactics, but other than that, I can’t think of a build that would ever take Opportunist on it’s own.

The only Warrior abilities that immobilize foes are longbow’s pin down and sword’s regular burst. I guess there is also the current iteration of the new hammer primal burst, but you wouldn’t take Arms if you were a hammer Berserker anyway.

What this means is that without Leg Specialist, Opportunist is basically a wasted slot because it only effects two abilities. But when you add Leg Specialist to it, it becomes a viable trait. The two are made for each other, but they are in opposing trait lines.

So, perhaps Opportunist would be better off somewhere in the Tactics line? This way you could easily invest in it as well as Leg Specialist, opening up a variety of new builds. (It could maybe even trade places with Burning Arrows? Would Burning Arrows be good in Arms?)

I don’t think this would be OP – all we’re doing is adding a conditional fury enabler to the already weak Tactics trait line (dps wise). Many other classes already have easier access than that to perma-fury. I think it would clean up some of that Warrior awkwardness and enable some new build options — especially with the new sources of cripple that Berserker is getting.

Agreed @Tipper.6973
Disagreed @TheBravery.9615
Strongly disagreed @TEGG.2859

Take away our greatsword perk and what do we have for damage?…nothing pretty much..i see you have some sort of intent on nerfing warriors in general..in fact most of the things you listed just hurt warriors..we have been nerfed enough…directly and indirectly since 2012…just baseline fast hands and leave us be.

Take away our banners? whats wrong with you? take those AND ps away from us and warrior becomes USELESS in group pve. We are one of the most balanced classes out there atm.

People need to stop basing trait balance off of “it’s too OP for an adept/master trait” or “it’s too UP for a gm trait.” Those distinctions literally do not exist anymore.

The other elephant-in-the-room is adrenaline loss.

Currently adrenaline seems designed as a “use-it-or-lose-it” resource.
In a way, the warrior gets punished for smart play, eg kiting.

If the adrenaline loss was reverted to what it used to be, it would allow more tactical play and make the warrior a bit less one-dimensional.

It would be nice if baseline adrenaline was 1 bar, and over time any loss or gain gravitates to that.
This way, a baseline one bar adrenaline, allows use of F1 off the bat – bringing the Warrior special ability in line with the other professions (even IP is baseline now).

SpookyPoo.8135:

It would be nice if baseline adrenaline was 1 bar, and over time any loss or gain gravitates to that.
This way, a baseline one bar adrenaline, allows use of F1 off the bat – bringing the Warrior special ability in line with the other professions (even IP is baseline now).

This I can agree with, too. Adrenaline flows pretty quickly, even at the start of combat, but particularly with certain traits/utility skills, but it does at times feel rather punitive.

SpookyPoo.8135:

The other elephant-in-the-room is adrenaline loss.

Currently adrenaline seems designed as a “use-it-or-lose-it” resource.
In a way, the warrior gets punished for smart play, eg kiting.

If the adrenaline loss was reverted to what it used to be, it would allow more tactical play and make the warrior a bit less one-dimensional.

It would be nice if baseline adrenaline was 1 bar, and over time any loss or gain gravitates to that.
This way, a baseline one bar adrenaline, allows use of F1 off the bat – bringing the Warrior special ability in line with the other professions (even IP is baseline now).

Adrenaline loss is a big issue for Berserker viability in open world PvE. Mobs die too fast to even get a full 3 bars of adrenaline, so you normally need to use your burst at ~2 bars, and you completely waste all the benefits you might get from Berserk mode.

Omega Zoa.3859:

Agreed @Tipper.6973
Disagreed @TheBravery.9615
Strongly disagreed @TEGG.2859

Take away our greatsword perk and what do we have for damage?…nothing pretty much..i see you have some sort of intent on nerfing warriors in general..in fact most of the things you listed just hurt warriors..we have been nerfed enough…directly and indirectly since 2012…just baseline fast hands and leave us be.

Take away our banners? whats wrong with you? take those AND ps away from us and warrior becomes USELESS in group pve. We are one of the most balanced classes out there atm.

I don’t intend to nerf warrior per se, I’m just pointing out stronger traits within a category (eg. master / grandmaster) while also pointing out weak and useless traits. I just gave suggestions but by no means should Anet follow them, however they do need to be tweaked to align with other traits to make other traits viable rather than being a “be all and end all” essential trait option. (eg. if you’re running greatsword, forceful greatsword is too good to pass up, but if you’re running sword, you could ignore blademaster)

You can’t simply improve warrior if you can’t acknowledge that some traits are too strong. You said it yourself that warrior is balanced at the moment, so more buffs would make warrior disproportionately stronger than other professions.

Very nice posts Tipper. I also agree with SpookyPoo when it comes to adrenaline. The adrenaline nerf was too hard, especially considering they did it all in one single patch. It really doesn’t go well with them saying that they would only ever make small adjustments to game balance.

Triple nerf in one single patch is not “small adjustment”:
- adrenaline loss whenever burst skill is used, even if it misses, is blocked, gets interrupted. Ok, I can live with that.
- Faster adrenaline decay when outside of combat. Guess I could live with that too if the nerf stopped here.
- Adrenaline decay starts as soon as you exit combat mode. This is pure kitten, especially in combination with how fast adrenaline decay is.

Revert adrenaline decay start to what it was before. Not only was the nerf too harsh on warriors here, it also TAKES AWAY THE FUN in playing Warrior. It sometimes makes you use your burst just because you know you have to, instead of actually playing it smart and finding a good opportunity to use it!

There have been many good suggestions on traits here, but there’s one I still want to talk a bit more about:

Leg Specialist: Internal cooldown on this trait ruined it for synchronizing really well with Hammer Shock or Blade Trail. And as far as I remember this nerf only happened because of Warriors sitting on Arrow Carts in WvW. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if that was the case, this isn’t the way to fix the issues in game.

This trait has to go back to 0 internal cooldown, so we can sync it well with Hammer Shock and Blade Trail. It’s the least warriors deserve here.

Good post, some quality reasoning, although I don’t agree with everything. Mainly the suggested buffs to Distracting Strikes and Vigorous Shouts.

DS seems like a perfectly fine trait to me. Confusion is one of the strongest conditions, and that’s saying something in a world where a single guardian can stacks burns for ~9k damage per second. DS has no cooldown, and warrior has a lot of interrupts available to it. Seems that with Berserker, a warrior condition spec will be able to dish out a ton of damage, so further adding to that already seems premature to me.

Vigorous Shouts was nerfed because of the most awful spec ever used by warriors in PvP; Shoutbow. This spec was so dumb, you could let your slow grandma play it and faceroll people.
I understand that for warriors to play a supporty role, it would need some added healing or buffing capabilities, but IMO not at the cost of reviving this braindead OP spec. Don’t forget that warriors can support the party in other ways (might, banners). Perhaps buffing the defensive banners would be a better idea.

Anyway, all these discussions essentially boil down to the single most important thing that has to happen before warriors can ever hope to be in a spot where they can be balanced and versatile; Fast Hands baseline.

Larynx.2453:

Adrenaline loss is a big issue for Berserker viability in open world PvE. Mobs die too fast to even get a full 3 bars of adrenaline, so you normally need to use your burst at ~2 bars, and you completely waste all the benefits you might get from Berserk mode.

Not only that, but also in WvW, when after endless fakes and moving around, it would be great time to Earthshake into them… only if you had some adrenaline! I even took Signet of Precision few times to have possibility to do burst skill of the bat. Stepping into AoE to proc Cleansing Ire is quite dangerous.

TheBravery.9615:

Strength

• Reckless dodge: I admit, this hits very hard for a minor adept trait. (talking about 4k dodge rolls when might stacked as a berserker warrior)
• Forceful Greatsword: Way too potent for a master trait. Perhaps remove the 10% damage increase and add an internal cooldown of 1 second per might stack, but increase might duration???

Are you talking PvP or PvE here when it comes to the dodges?

Also – FG is a strong and solid trait – without it warrior GS would be pretty much dead and warrior in PvE would find itself without a role.
The chances you propose are very poor and would damage GS on warrior a lot.

Then I guess it’s time for us to start QQing the forums to revert some of Adrenaline changes.

As I mentioned I think the only serious problem is that adrenaline decay starts too fast. 20s after leaving combat mode was fine…

@Omega Zoa.3859

Just to be clear with this, what kind of content are we talking about? Because my statements were all about the current PvE meta, for PvP the overall reasoning in this thread is quite acceptable.

“Take away our greatsword perk and what do we have for damage?”
Have you checked the normal DPS build for warrior? GS + Axe/Mace (or even Axe/Axe) still does decent damage. Something between medium and high, have to look up the DnT dps spreadsheets for that, tho.

“Take away our banners […] AND ps?”
I just said one banner, since I do realise all of them would be an overkill. And yes, PS needs to be tweaked down, either with an internal CD or in the might duration.

“We are one of the most balanced classes out there atm.”
Has it occurred to you, that warrior is a must have in every PvE group? Have you done some math on the passive damage a warrior gives with his traits/banners/PS? For the current PvE meta, you can’t build a group-setup without a warrior.

My intention was to distribute what the warrior has in abundance among classes which have no reason to be picked in PvE. The necro totem was just one suggestion.

I have to apologize, I got a bit salty in the first post. But I can’t comprehend people complaining about warrior being “balanced” or even “weak” somehow (in the current meta), since he is cleary not to me.

Maybe I have a narrow view on that topic, tho. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Harper.4173:

TheBravery.9615:

Strength

• Reckless dodge: I admit, this hits very hard for a minor adept trait. (talking about 4k dodge rolls when might stacked as a berserker warrior)
• Forceful Greatsword: Way too potent for a master trait. Perhaps remove the 10% damage increase and add an internal cooldown of 1 second per might stack, but increase might duration???

Are you talking PvP or PvE here when it comes to the dodges?

Also – FG is a strong and solid trait – without it warrior GS would be pretty much dead and warrior in PvE would find itself without a role.
The chances you propose are very poor and would damage GS on warrior a lot.

I agree with you that it is strong, but it’s not in any means balanced. You know this as much as I do if you’ve been playing warrior; Forceful Greatsword allows warrior to pump out DPS no other profession is capable of doing. It needs rebalancing. If you think that my suggestions are poor, please share with us your idea of a balanced Forceful Greatsword.

I’m sorry friend, but posting a screenshot of damage from a skill that roots you and has a 3 second channel time proves absolutely nothing.

Shiny numbers really mean nothing in this case.

Consider that we don’t all PvE. GS has no place in WvW raids for example, it’s a joke there, and it also is still not as widely used in high tier spvp. I really can’t remember when was the last time a warrior landed full HB on me, but it must have been sometime in the last five days of August 2012. :P

Oh, wow, 100b damage. Yea, it’s bad…if you’re a gollem))
And it’s a PvE build. Dude, srsly, go fish !

They need to boost the base warrior and tone down the gain from traits.

They need to look at all those core warrior traits that we really need to be competitive and incorporate it in the basic warrior. Baseline fast hand, reduce all the core weapons cooldown etc and then they need to reduce the gain from traits. If the base warrior was stronger and less dependent from what he gain from traits maybe the current berserker trait line would be balanced.

Honestly..some of the “suggestions” people posted here scare me..alot..because I fear anet will actually take these nerf suggestions to heart and actually go with them..as if we need MORE nerfs.

Tipper.6973:

One more thought I just had was on the Arms trait Opportunist (gain fury when you immobilize a foe). This trait is quite nice when taken with Leg Specialist (immobilize on cripple) in Tactics, but other than that, I can’t think of a build that would ever take Opportunist on it’s own.

The only Warrior abilities that immobilize foes are longbow’s pin down and sword’s regular burst. I guess there is also the current iteration of the new hammer primal burst, but you wouldn’t take Arms if you were a hammer Berserker anyway.

What this means is that without Leg Specialist, Opportunist is basically a wasted slot because it only effects two abilities. But when you add Leg Specialist to it, it becomes a viable trait. The two are made for each other, but they are in opposing trait lines.

So, perhaps Opportunist would be better off somewhere in the Tactics line? This way you could easily invest in it as well as Leg Specialist, opening up a variety of new builds. (It could maybe even trade places with Burning Arrows? Would Burning Arrows be good in Arms?)

I don’t think this would be OP – all we’re doing is adding a conditional fury enabler to the already weak Tactics trait line (dps wise). Many other classes already have easier access than that to perma-fury. I think it would clean up some of that Warrior awkwardness and enable some new build options — especially with the new sources of cripple that Berserker is getting.

Opportunist is a Fury granting trait that, at least in my opinion, is rightfully placed in Arms Specialization which benefits, amongst other things, critical chance. I agree that currently Opportunist alone can only benefit from Sword’s Flurry, Longbow’s Pin Down and Throw Bolas. Still, its synergy with Leg Specialist is obvious and Arms and Tactics benefit Condi/Hybrid builds. Moving Opportunist to another specialization, Tactics for example, will actually implement new problems and choice restrictions.

Splitting synergies between different specializations are not uncommon. Same thing goes for Distracting Strikes and Merciless Hammer for example.

Tipper.6973:

Axe Mastery

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Axe Mastery
This trait is extremely underrepresented compared with Berserker’s Power. They are both intended to be damage-increasing traits, but in the context of the Strength tree, Berserker’s Power is superior. As a result, Axe Mastery rarely used.

Let’s look at it a bit closer. Dual-wielding axes nets you another 300 ferocity, 20% cooldown reduction, and 2 adrenaline on crit. This is not a bad trait. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that it is an excellent trait. The issue is that dual-wield builds want to take the Arms tree. When you are using Strength, you are usually running Greatsword, or at the very least you usually are not dual-wielding as your primary damage source. I don’t think Axe Mastery is a good fit for the Strength line, thematically or otherwise.

The solution for Axe Mastery is pretty simple: move it to Arms. I’d like to see it replace Deep Strikes as a master trait, competing with Unsuspecting Foe (mace) and Blademaster (sword). This way, when you want to build a dual wield character, you have a clear path to take for whichever weapon type you want to specialize in – mace, axe, or sword – all in one spot.

I would have to disagree here. Outside of Dual-Wielding and Rending Strikes, nothing in arms supports Axe. In comparison, you have 7 out of 12 traits working with Sword.

And what happens with the empty slot in Strength? Surely you cannot be saying that Deep Strikes, a condi trait if there ever was one, is better in a power-centric tree like Strength?

Distracting Strikes

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Distracting Strikes
I think this is a really cool trait, and along with Body Blows it encourages a lockdown-condition style Warrior that is currently not very popular. However, I question its effectiveness. Confusion is not usually found on the Warrior, and although it’s fun to think about smacking someone’s head so hard they forget what’s going on, I don’t actually think that confusion on its own has enough synergy with the rest of the class.

I think this trait could have something like bleeding (or maybe even torment?) added to it, in addition to the confusion. You’re already getting some bleeding from Body Blows, so why not double up on it if you’ve taken both traits? You could then add bleed sigils and runes to really capitalize on things and validate gearing with some condition damage. As it stands, I think Berserker’s Power is probably still better than Distracting Strikes, even in lockdown builds.

I don’t think the issue here is Distracting Strikes, but rather Body Blow. The sets that most benefit from Distracting Strikes would be Hammer and Mace/Shield. Both of those are power sets, not to mention already having decent access to Weakness.

If you wanted to use Body Blow with Distracting Strikes, you’re talking of a condi build, in which case you’re going to be taking Sword. I don’t think we need to increase the bleeds on Sword, it’s fine as it is.

Burst Precision

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Burst Precision
This one is pretty straightforward: it just doesn’t fit the theme of the Arms line, or offer any synergy with other Arms traits. It seems like it was placed in Arms as an afterthought. I’d like to see this moved somewhere in the Discipline line, where it fits the burst-ability theme and can synergize with Versatile Power and Burst Mastery.

Doesn’t fit with the theme of Arms? Guess power Sword builds aren’t a thing, then. The reason I, as someone who plays power sword, do not take Burst Precision is that I already have very high crit%, which makes the trait useless. The Arms tree has plenty of crit related traits, so Burst Precision is right at home. However, due to the aforementioned reason, it’s pretty weak for a GM. Most people who want 100% crit on burst go for Sigil of Intelligence instead.

The thing is, moving around Grandmaster traits almost guarantees that they’ll be competing with other Grandmaster traits, rather than being placed in the lower slots. And even if that were the case, Master tier Discipline already has 2 excellent traits.

Inspiring Battle Standard

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Inspiring Battle Standard
This is a good trait, but I think it’s another one that’s been misplaced. It does not fit the theme of Discipline at all (weapon swapping and bursting), and would be much more appropriate in the Tactics line (support theme). Moving it would help keep the goals of each trait line clear and concise. I’m not totally certain where the best place for it in Tactics would be, but I think it could potentially be swapped with Burning Arrows. Which leads me to…

I think the idea behind moving Inspiring Battle Standards was so that Shout Warriors could take a banner and get healing there as well. Before all the trait shuffling stuff, Inspiring Battle Standard directly competed with Vigorous Shouts.

My biggest problem with PvE Warrior is Phalanx Strength’s dependency on a Greatsword trait to be effective. There will always be a “best” weapon and I’m fine with Greatsword being it, but I want to bring other builds and other weapons into dungeons without compromising my group utility so harshly. Spread the group love to other weapons. Take Might-on-crit out of the Forceful Greatsword trait, stick it somewhere else and make it work for any weapon. Forceful Greatsword remains a great trait without it.

Might on Crit would be an amazing trait – on its own.
Without a cooldown, it is easily a grandmaster trait – on its own.

Having one weapon massively better than all others is not good for the class.

yanoch.7051:

They need to boost the base warrior and tone down the gain from traits.

I think this is a pretty interesting idea. You often hear people talking about how Warrior NEEDS Strength in order to dps, or NEEDS Defense in order to stay alive. A big reason this thread exists is because of trait shoehorning.

So, is too much of our power found in our traits? Should some of that power perhaps move to our utility abilities instead? Should traits define how you play the game, rather than just enabling you to play it?

It’s a pretty tough balancing act and I don’t expect anything like that to happen. Still interesting though.

Speaking purely from a PvE perspective (I know, I know, this isn’t a PvE forum. Sue me!), I would skin my own foot to be able to do something like Sword/Warhorn or even Mace/Warhorn on my frontline support Phalanx Strength build. I use greatsword because it’s nigh-required, but I actually kinda hate the greatsword. It’s boring beyond belief. I would very much prefer to use a mainhand and the warhorn, or a hammer, or something that did more than a bunch of random damage.

The baseline traits thing is a discussion I’m not really informed enough to discuss properly on the Warrior PvP Complaints subforum, but I know that the current trait set-up, while still better than a number of classes, feels…disjointed, I suppose. The Warrior has so many weapon options that it needs to sacrifice more than half its traits for “Required 20% + [X] Weapon” traits, and as such you keep ending up making weird trait choices because that’s all you have, or because they had to put something in Tactics despite the half-dozen threads I’ve seen today that basically say “take every trait out of Tactics and put it somewhere else because **** Tactics.”

I almost wish Warrior traits would consolidate down into weapon groups rather than individual weapons. Things like Swordmaster working for both swords and greatswords, Sundering Mace being reworked to handle both mace and hammer, stuff like that. Stop making every trait in the Warrior traitlines single weapon specific and instead put thematically similar weapons together so the class has more room to have traits that aren’t hard-linked to weapons and otherwise useless.

If that requires some nerfs, or requires Fast Hands to be baseline’d, or whatever, then do it and see what happens.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

I use greatsword because it’s nigh-required, but I actually kinda hate the greatsword. It’s boring beyond belief. I would very much prefer to use a mainhand and the warhorn, or a hammer, or something that did more than a bunch of random damage.

So much this. I’ve been a dedicated axe warrior since GW1, and I hate relying on the Greatsword. Fast Hands really helps make the GS bearable, but it really shouldn’t be this mandatory.

My opinion is that your weapons and utility skill selections should be what defines your playstyle; traits should simply augment that playstyle. Striking that perfect balance between definition and augmentation is always difficult, though, in any game. Especially with elite specializations and raids potentially chucking the existing meta builds into the bin as is.

Why aren’t Warriors upset that Defense is mandatory? If anything it is more mandatory then Discipline which is why people want baseline fast hands. I used to do Stength / Arms / Discipline in PvP with stances and Rampage, however the survivability Defense tree adds is so great that I switched Arms with it. Most Warriors it seems have both Discipline and Defense.

Only suggesting change to traitlines/traits I’ve noticed, i.e, give a kitten about.

New Baselines: Fast hands, Embrace the pain and the movement part of Warriors sprint.
After cast of axe 3 reduced, it’s so annoying

Strength:
Minors;
Reckless dodge: Unchanged,, maybe deal the damage you avoided into the ammount u dmg.
Building momentum: Unchanged
Stick and move: Unchanged

Adept;
Death from above: Unchanged
Restorative strength: Swap place with leg specialist in tactics line.
Peak Performance: Unchanged

Rest of strength line, idc/not thought of

Defense:

Minors;
Dogged March: Is now minor. I hate you thick skin!
Adrenal health: Gain health when you use an burst ability. (Is discouraging/punishing to use atm, same issue as previous ’Berserker’s Power’, even if not noticable)
Spiked Armor: Unchanged

Adept:
Shield Master: Unchanged
Second slot: Free Slot.
Cull of the weak: Replace I guess, Idc.

Master:
Defy Pain: When you are below 25% healt, gain access to Defy Pain: Press F3 to activate Endure Pain (with seperate cd).
Armored Attack: Unchanged
Sundering Mace: Replace/change I guess, idc.

Grandmaster;
Last stand: 60 sec cd, not 40
Second Slot: Free slot
Rousing Resilience: When you are cc’d, gain health and 1k toughness for x (6?) seconds. y (10?) sec ICD.

Discipline:

Minors;
Versatile rage: Unchanged
Brawlers Recovery: Is now a minor in Fast hands previous slot.
Versatile power: Unchanged

Adept;
Crack shot: Unchanged
Second slot: The immob removing part of warriors sprint.
Vengeful Return: Meh idc, unchanged

Master:
Inspiring Battle Standard: Added cd reduction by 20%
Destruction of the empowered: Unchanged, (increased dmg to 4%?)
Merciless Hammer: Unchanged, Now master. Perhaps Convert some dmg modifier, to attack speed with hammer, to solve the issue where sometimes (certain combos) the attack does not get affected by the dmg modifirer, becuase there is a split second that the target gets out of the cc before the hammer hit hits.

Grandmaster;
First Slot: Free slot
Heightened Focus: Unchanged
Burst Master: Now also removes a condition for each bar of adrenaline spent.

Might be op, but numbers arer numbers. But imo this layout would be much more relieving/nicer =)

TheBravery.9615:

Harper.4173:

TheBravery.9615:

Strength

• Reckless dodge: I admit, this hits very hard for a minor adept trait. (talking about 4k dodge rolls when might stacked as a berserker warrior)
• Forceful Greatsword: Way too potent for a master trait. Perhaps remove the 10% damage increase and add an internal cooldown of 1 second per might stack, but increase might duration???

Are you talking PvP or PvE here when it comes to the dodges?

Also – FG is a strong and solid trait – without it warrior GS would be pretty much dead and warrior in PvE would find itself without a role.
The chances you propose are very poor and would damage GS on warrior a lot.

I agree with you that it is strong, but it’s not in any means balanced. You know this as much as I do if you’ve been playing warrior; Forceful Greatsword allows warrior to pump out DPS no other profession is capable of doing. It needs rebalancing. If you think that my suggestions are poor, please share with us your idea of a balanced Forceful Greatsword.

DPS Like no other profession is capable of doing? Are you serious? Warrior as far as I know is nowhere close top-tier DPS – especially if they aslo trait for PS.

My suggestion of a “balanced” forceful greatsword is this : the skill is fine – despite your personal opinion the skill is where it should be. It allows GS to become relevant and overcome its inherent flaws ( 100b root, bad autoattack).

Why is that we must “rebalance” everything? What other evidence apart from your own personal opinion and feelings do you bring to the table when you state that the skill is “OP” and needs to be rebalanced?

Tipper.6973:

yanoch.7051:

They need to boost the base warrior and tone down the gain from traits.

I think this is a pretty interesting idea. You often hear people talking about how Warrior NEEDS Strength in order to dps, or NEEDS Defense in order to stay alive. A big reason this thread exists is because of trait shoehorning.

So, is too much of our power found in our traits? Should some of that power perhaps move to our utility abilities instead? Should traits define how you play the game, rather than just enabling you to play it?

It’s a pretty tough balancing act and I don’t expect anything like that to happen. Still interesting though.

I do think the berserker issue will happen on the next elite spec. Originally adrenaline was our core mechanic but as the game progressed over the last 3 years the warrior profession changed and they didn’t adjusted. I do think that it would not be as crazy complicated as it might sound.

Warrior needs fast hand? Give warrior 7 sec base weapon switching to get 5 sec you either get the minor fast hand or use runes of the warrior. It’s just an example. Take a bit from the essential trait(weapon specialisation traits are other exemple) give it to the weapons/skills and just make as if you spec in that tree you get the same as the old. The good build are used an benchmark and stay the same in the end and the not used one get a buff.

Anet as the data, they know what are those meta traits. Give it to us so that the basic warr is stronger and make us less dependable on those traits.

My suggestion of a “balanced” forceful greatsword is this : the skill is fine – despite your personal opinion the skill is where it should be. It allows GS to become relevant and overcome its inherent flaws ( 100b root, bad autoattack).

Why is that we must “rebalance” everything? What other evidence apart from your own personal opinion and feelings do you bring to the table when you state that the skill is “OP” and needs to be rebalanced?

How can you possibly think this skill is fine?

HOW?

Without this skill, warrior goes from being competitive in groups to being really, really second rate.

How can you possibly think that means the trait is ‘fine’?

One or two over-powered traits propping up an entire class is -not- fine.

Here’s a thought: maybe the inherent flaws you see in greatsword are no greater or less than the inherent flaws in any other weapon. I challenge you to come up with a competitive build that doesn’t use greatsword; a build that isn’t totally overshadowed by other builds.

Think you can do it?

Schurge.5194:

Why aren’t Warriors upset that Defense is mandatory? If anything it is more mandatory then Discipline which is why people want baseline fast hands. I used to do Stength / Arms / Discipline in PvP with stances and Rampage, however the survivability Defense tree adds is so great that I switched Arms with it. Most Warriors it seems have both Discipline and Defense.

The focus is on Fast Hands because making it baseline would be a relatively non-disruptive change that would go a long way.

Defense is more complicated to sort out and, frankly, I’m personally not certain if it’s mandatory or just optimal. For example, could gear, utilities and/or the Berserker line provide enough defense for a Strength/Arms/Berserker hybrid build (assuming FH was baselined)? I don’t know. One small step at a time.

In general I agree with you though. I think “mandatory” trait lines for any class is something to work against wherever possible.

Choppy.4183:

In general I agree with you though. I think “mandatory” trait lines for any class is something to work against wherever possible.

This is something to keep strongly in mind. ‘Baseline’ traits are something ArenaNet hates; I remain convinced that the only reason Illusionary Persona became baseline was because without that change, Mesmers were the only class in the game who could push their F* buttons, put them on full cooldown, and get zero effects from them. Every other class got something when they pushed F*, but a Mesmer without clones up popped a cooldown and accomplished absolutely nothing.

Ever since they made that change, every profession forum has started listing a dozen traits they think are ‘MANDATORY BASELINE’ traits, but really – how mandatory are these ideas? I can see the argument for Fast Hands, but try and think of it this way – if Warrior players can bang their heads long enough and hard enough to get Fast Hands baseline’d, that will likely be it. That will be the only trait you ever get to fold into the base class because ArenaNet hates baselining traits for a number of very good reasons.

Is Fast Hands worth being the only baseline trait you ever get?

DevilLordLaser.8619:

Is Fast Hands worth being the only baseline trait you ever get?

In my eyes, yes. It would be a defined mechanical distinction separating Warriors from other classes. I personally think Fast Hands is the only trait that should be baselined, as none of the others really feel like they change the whole way that a Warrior plays. Certain traits will always end up as mandatory “choices” based on build/content – and that’s fine, to an extent, such that those “mandatory choices” help to augment the individual’s personal playstyle in their chosen environment.

In a very guarded way, and recalling that I don’t PvP so I suppose my opinion is invalid anyways, I can agree with the logic. One must remember, however, that baselining Fast Hands means that Warriors get ten traits to every other class’ nine, and they also get freedom of spec selection that other classes with ‘essential’ traits don’t. Many Necromancers believe that Vital Persistence is an absolutely mandatory trait forcing the selection of Soul Reaping, while Elementalists will generally tell you that you can’t make an Elementalist build worth playing without Elemental Attunement, thus forcing Arcane.

Everyone has the same problem, to a greater or lesser extent, and baselining all the things(!!) is in no way a viable solution. Warriors are fortunate in that Discipline is also an excellent traitline in general and not a waste to take. I do understand and agree that Fast Hands feels like a Warrior thing and, considered in a vacuum, would not overly disrupt the class’ balance and might in fact help make up for the adrenaline system’s inadequacies as a class mechanic…but it’s also the sort of move that would incite instantaneous and immediate fiery nerdrage in other classes not blessed with the ability to take an essential trait to their class for free, and it would allow Warriors to gain a versatility of roles and builds not permitted to other professions.

You can’t consider solely the impact for the Warrior. Let Warriors have Fast Hands, and what argument do you have for not making Vital Persistence or Eatt baseline, too? That’s an awful lot of power creep to allow into the game, and it makes me awfully leery.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

You can’t consider solely the impact for the Warrior. Let Warriors have Fast Hands, and what argument do you have for not making Vital Persistence or Eatt baseline, too? That’s an awful lot of power creep to allow into the game, and it makes me awfully leery.

A fair point.

At least with Necros, it would seem to me (and I don’t have a Necro, so pure conjecture from just looking at the trait) that’s either more a flaw with the other two Major traits in Soul Reaping, or a symptom of the meta build(s) that run optimally with that choice. Comparing Vital Persistence to Fast Hands is also a stretch, to me; VP would more logically equate to Forceful Greatsword in that, for a particular meta build, it’s too good to not take, making it feel mandatory for that build. Again, though, not terribly familiar with Necros and their shroud, so I could be way off base.

Now, with Ele’s Arcane trait line, that’s more a problem I see with Ele’s traits in general. For mine, Arcane feels much like the Discipline or Tactics lines in that it offers a lot of really nice things to cover a broader range of situations – particularly in group play, which is what I tend to build around. I, personally, don’t think EAtt should be baselined since that would provide too much of a passive group advantage, making Ele’s even more desirable than they already are, whereas FH alone only affects the Warrior directly. I see baselining EAtt as more like baselining Phalanx Strength, and would not want to see that happen to Warriors, either.

I submit that the Engineer is a better “weapon-master” than Warrior, because the Engineer can swap weapon kits on one-second cooldowns.

Warriors needs baseline Fast Hands, above all else, before we can even think about fixing the rest of Warrior’s problems.

TheBravery.9615:

I agree with you that it is strong, but it’s not in any means balanced. You know this as much as I do if you’ve been playing warrior; Forceful Greatsword allows warrior to pump out DPS no other profession is capable of doing. It needs rebalancing. If you think that my suggestions are poor, please share with us your idea of a balanced Forceful Greatsword.

Posting big damage pictures of a full 100b on a stationary, defenseless target golem doesn’t prove anything “overpowered.” Forceful Greatsword is pretty much the only thing propping up Warrior in PvE… nerf that, and Phalanx Strength alone can’t save Warrior from irrelevance.

Sure Forceful Greatsword can pump out decent DPS in PvE, but it’s nothing that any Ele can’t do, and you see a lot more of them in the dungeon meta anyway. People need it more for the synergy with Phalanx Strength to stack might than for the raw personal damage. PvE is just a DPS game against canned content, so I don’t see a problem.

Calling for PvE nerfs is just pointless. There’s no competitive aspect, and people just want to grind through repetitive content faster.

Thuggernaut.1250:

Posting big damage pictures of a full 100b on a stationary, defenseless target golem doesn’t prove anything “overpowered.” Forceful Greatsword is pretty much the only thing propping up Warrior in PvE… nerf that, and Phalanx Strength alone can’t save Warrior from irrelevance.

Sure Forceful Greatsword can pump out decent DPS in PvE, but it’s nothing that any Ele can’t do, and you see a lot more of them in the dungeon meta anyway. People need it more for the synergy with Phalanx Strength to stack might than for the raw personal damage. PvE is just a DPS game against canned content, so I don’t see a problem.

Calling for PvE nerfs is just pointless. There’s no competitive aspect, and people just want to grind through repetitive content faster.

Do you see me in here saying that all PvP people want is to be jerks to their fellow players/dance on their stomped bodies?

Geh…insults aside. I’d rather see Forceful Greatsword’s might generation split into a new, separate Grandmaster trait with a reasonable ICD (2s tops) that works with any weapon, and then do something else to make greatsword pop. Forceful Greatsword is necessary for Phalanx Strength builds, but the greatsword itself is a junk weapon that doesn’t work at all with the group-supportive nature of a PS build.

Un-tethering Warrior might generation from the greatsword would be one of the single greatest changes they could make for PvE build diversity. Instead of every PS Warrior ever being the same Strength/Tactics/Discipline build with identical trait selection, you could do a Phalanx Strength version of any weapon you preferred, tailoring the rest of your loadout to what your guild likes or what whichever bit of content you’re doing needs. Would even allow the Berserker to mesh better with PvE groups, since they could do their PS thing on, say, Sword/Torch and still contribute whilst also setting all the things on fire.

I really like the idea of using something other than Greatsword in PvE.

So how would we go about making Phalanx Strength / might generation useful with other weapon types? Do we just re-work the trait to have a similar effect but a different method in obtaining it?

I think it’s also worth noting here that in raids, the might stacking from PS Warriors might not actually even be that important. When you have ten players working together, there are MANY other sources of might compared to a fractal or dungeon. It seems to me like most groups should already be able to maintain 25 might without Phalanx Strength. What does this mean for us?

Off the top of my head:

Burst Precision, in Arms, is kinda crap. Guaranteed crit for bursts is easily figured out in other ways, and if you have enough team support you get 100% natural crit rate anyways. The Arms traitline, however, is definitely the Precision-y, crit-based traitline, and Might benefits Malice specs as much as it does Power specs. I’d split the Might-on-crit from Forceful Greatsword off into a new Arms Grandmaster replacing Burst Precision. Call it Savage Momentum, give it a 1s ICD if ArenaNet can’t tolerate anything but Greatsword generating Might on crit (though I can’t see why it’d cause any problem we don’t already have). Forceful Greatsword is a 10% damage boost and a 20% recharge reduction for greatswords and spears – that’s probably enough to go on for it.

Now, you can Phalanx Strength by going Arms/Tactics/* and pick your choice of weapon to do it with. It does, however, mean that you have to give up bonus adrenaline/Malice from Furious or IAS from Dual Wielding, so you give up some options for bolstering personal damage to gain that juicy might stacking. it does still require two lines, but for a build as ridiculously powerful as Phalanx Strength, I think that’s okay. Savage Momentum would also stand by itself – being able to tack Might onto weapons other than the utterly awful Greatsword makes Arms a lot more attractive, though again it may end up inviting an ICD to try and curb things like Axe AA spam for instant 25 might.

Most importantly though, you can do Phalanx Strength with any weapon you bloody well please. That opens up real diversity of builds and brings a large number of weapons back into the top-end PvE game. Maybe a place to start?

In no way would the might portion of FG, with 2s ICD no less, be worth a GM trait. It wouldn’t be worth an adept trait either.

Why not just throw it into PS, and then move that trait from Tactics to Strength? There it can compete with BP, provided the might generated under any circumstances doesn’t reach 20% damage.

Which to take would then be a matter of whether you’re with allies, and/or your crit chance.

It would be a personal power nerf to the current gs warrior though (which is what I typically run).

I favor it with no ICD whatsoever, but ArenaNet has done sillier things with ICDs in the past.

As for “why not just merge it with PS, then move PS to Strength”? Well…because Tactics has to have a purpose. People want Burning Arrows, PS, and Leg Specialist all out of Tactics and “into lines I actually use!” Frankly, that’s a horsemanure reason to do something. if you want multiple traits in Tactics, take Tactics. No, Tactics is not a big personal DPS increase. Not everything has to be. Gutting the line of everything except the worst traits in the Warrior set-up, then saying “There, good. Now we just never speak of Tactics again and everything will be fine” is utterly awful game design.

PS is an excellent fit for the Tactics line, which is supposed to focus on group support, boon sharing, and otherwise being a good party player. PS is the definition of being a good party player. Why should it move to Strength, which is an intrinsically selfish line whose only real role is personal DPS?