Guild Wars 2

(…without destroying everything else)

Unlike my typical posts, I’m gonna keep this (relatively) short and simple.

We all know Warriors are currently a bit overpowered. We all know they need adjustment. What I’m hoping is to lead those adjustments in the right direction instead of “whack-a-mole-nerf-hammer” territory (see ranger).

And I’ll start doing that by saying that there’s currently only one real problem with warrior: Healing Signet.

Skull crack builds, hammer builds, condition builds… The linchpin of any warrior build that is currently PvP/WvW viable is the same. HS.

Now allow me to follow up by saying that no, it’s not the amount it heals. In fact, when it comes to amount, HS is actually the only Warrior heal that’s anywhere close to where it should be. Warrior is a class with little to no damage mitigation. They have no vigor, no protection, and while they’re much better now than they were a while ago they’re still hardly the masters of condition removal or boon use…They face tank with their massive health pool, so they need their heals to replenish that same health pool, otherwise they have no sustain.

When I have 25k health, a 5k heal means kitten all. Tear drop in the ocean.

“So, if it’s not the amount of healing HS does, what’s wrong with it?” You ask. Simple, the fact that there is no counter play, because Healing Signet is a permanent passive. You can’t interrupt it, you can’t deny it, and even poison has limited utility since it’s only an issue of a temporary performance dip before it’s cleansed – instead of risking cutting 33% of your entire heal… It’s just 33% of a very small part of it.

And this points to one of the biggest design issues with Signets (in general) in Guild Wars 2: The passive should never be the main use of a skill. The passive should only be a bonus.

The funny part is that you have, side by side, examples of signets done very right and very wrong:

Good
Dolyak Signet : This skill is one of the best examples of a good signet design. It offers clear pros and cons when compared to the non-signet alternative (Balanced Stance). It offers 180 passive toughness when not in use for the cost of extra swiftness when used and more cooldown (8 seconds if you also “pay” an extra trait, 20 without it). It offers you a slightly weaker active in exchange for the bonus passive, but you’re never going to carry this for the passive alone. It’s just a bonus.

Bad
Healing Signet: Very bad. The only reason to take this is the passive. The active is pathetic.

Good
Signet of Resolve: Compared to the other good Guardian heal (Shelter) it offers a stronger heal on a longer cooldown that passively cleans a condition (2 if traited) every 10 seconds, vs. a 2 second block while healing. Stronger, less frequent, heal and a bit more condition removal, or weaker, more frequent, heal that gives you additional damage avoidance. Valid choices.

Signet of Undeath: You take this for the team mate revival. The life force generation is just a nice bonus.

Bad
Signet of Malice/Signet of Restoration: Active is balls. Passive is the only reason to pick these.

Ranger Signets: Pretty much all of them are picked for their passive, with actives being secondary, often completely ignored.

Seeing a pattern? Passives should never be the primary component of any skill. They should be extras, secondary bonuses to the active effect.

So, you want to balance the warrior? Nerf the passive of HS, a lot, buff all the actives of all the Warrior’s heals a lot (hell, I’d tell you to start testing by doubling them). That’s it. You don’t need to touch unsuspecting foe, or skull crack, or condition builds, or anything. You fix the active vs. passive healing issue and everything else will even out. Because suddenly counter play is possible. Suddenly a Warrior can’t heal while attacking. They can’t heal while being stunnned/knocked down. Their heals can be interrupted or poisoned. The Healing Signet can still exist, but the main use of it has to be the active heal, with the passive being a simple benefit to make up for a slightly lower heal per activation.

…And then you can focus on fixing what’s broken, such as useless or dysfunctional trait trees and skills.

Cheers.

Personally I don’t agree with what you are saying the problem is, but thanks for at least posting good comparisons and alternatives that were thought out. Some of them were kind of cool ideas.

Warrior has no problem at all.
Why people always try to fix the minor things.

Anet should fix stealth first.
Stealth, Perma blind , Bugged skills and traits ,

There are tons of thing which is need to be fixed.

I see no problem with Healing signet at all.
Did you seen how much engi and ele can regen themself?
We are not even near to that much regen. It’s just a simple plus sustain for us.
We need sustain.

It’s not about us not needing sustain, it’s about the fact that well-designed, fun and dynamic signets need to have decent actives, instead of having very strong passives and very weak actives, they’re supposed to offer you freedom of choice, it feels much more dynamic to use other healing skills, even though the signet is better, it’s a flawed skill that needs a new active and passive.

ProxyDamage.9826:

When I have 25k health, a 5k heal means kitten all. Tear drop in the ocean.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Nerf the passive of HS, a lot, buff all the actives of all the Warrior’s heals a lot (hell, I’d tell you to start testing by doubling them).

Please explain this.

You want us to have more healing because we have more base HP?

Ray.2640:

ProxyDamage.9826:

When I have 25k health, a 5k heal means kitten all. Tear drop in the ocean.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Nerf the passive of HS, a lot, buff all the actives of all the Warrior’s heals a lot (hell, I’d tell you to start testing by doubling them).

Please explain this.

You want us to have more healing because we have more base HP?

Alright, it’s simple really.

There are many different ways to be “tanky” in a game, but I guess we can group them in two major areas. You can either avoid or mitigate the damage you take, meaning you take little damage, or you can take the full damage, but have much stronger healing/regen instead.

Take Guardians for example. Guardians have a very small health pool. Anywhere between two thirds to half of a Warrior’s, depending on build. However, what they do have, is a lot of damage mitigation. They have great access to protection, better condition removal, they have active and passive Aegis, perma-vigor, a secondary passive and active heal that is completely isolated from their main heal, blocks, blinds, invulnerability, etc… The idea here is that any reasonable damage to Guardians is difficult, therefore they have a small health pool, because they can multiply it with their damage mitigation.

Warrior, on the other hand, does not. They only have 30% vigor if they sacrifice a utility skill slot and only when it’s not in cooldown (compared to Guardian’s nearly 100% upkeep), no protection, they have a couple of blocks, and at best the very punctual “Endure Pain”. Warrior takes the full brunt of any attack to the chin, which is why they have a bigger health pool, because they take more damage.

And therein lies the problem with Warrior’s heals. While a Guardian’s heal is naturally multiplied in effectiveness through their damage mitigation, a Warrior’s is not. For the Warrior to have sustain they need to heal more, because all of the points of “damage” they’re recovering are unmitigated as well.

To give a simple example (ignore the numeric values, it’s just for the sake of the example):

Imagine a Guardian takes half the damage the Warrior takes in the same situation.

Now, that Guardian has 14k health, and heals 8k with his health, and the Warrior has 20k health and a 12k heal.

Since the Guardian is taking half damage, this means he has 28k effective health and a 16k effective heal. But the Warrior is still taking 100% of the damage, meaning his effective health IS 20k and 12k healing.

Now, you don’t necessarily wanna give Warriors even more health, so, instead, what you need to do is given them stronger healing. Which is why the problem with HS is not that the amount it heals, but the fact that it’s passive and permanent and therefore does not allow counterplay – see rest of OP.

Hope that made any sense.

SpecterMAT.7306:

Stuff

I thought I recognized your name, so I read some of your “back posts”. You have no idea what you’re talking about so I’m simply going to ignore you.

And before you say “I know how to play”, you don’t. Promise.

Going to have to call you out on your 30/30/30/30/30 guardian build, because people do it with Warriors all the time. Guards have to spec for most of that, and manage long cool downs with short durations. But yes, wars do need more active damage mitigation, so long as pasives are reduced.

Thanks for clarifying. I do not agree with just slapping on some extra heals, but I understand your point.
I think a more active and reactive playstyle would be better for the overall fun of all classes but that would require too many changes to be a feasible solution.

I have been spamming two ideas for Healing Signet, but they have been ignored.

The goal remains the same: the problem is not healing signet’s HPS. It’s the fact that it’s passive. You never need to stop and heal.

(phantasm mesmer was OP in 1v1 for a similar reason: thanks to phantasm dealing most damage, he could cast them and deal damage while running to safety that’s why apllying pressure to a mesmer was nearly impossible, and you had to outplay him just to stay alive longer)

• Idea #1 (the easy one): Get rid of the actual passive effect. Put something different in its place (something particular). Buff the activated heal so it reaches 392 hps. Increase the cast time by a bit if needed (just to be a bit over other heals).

Now you have two choices:

A) you want wars to use signet mastery in order to obtain the same hps.
Healing signet should then heal for 392*16=6272

B) you want wars to have even more heals if they use signet mastery (not advised).
Healing signet should then heal for 7840

• Idea #2 (the odd one): Change Healing Signet to make it work like a toggle utility, more than an usual signet.

Here’s how it might work:

Toggled OFF: Nothing happens.

Toggled ON: Warrior gets healed by a BIG amount (840 per second or different). BUT all damage taken (both direct and condi) is increased by 50% (or different, basically the higher the heal, the more dramatic the increase should be).

You can even put a cooldown on toggling.

Here, with the right tweaks healing signet can become the most strategy-based, fun and rewarding healing skill in the game.XD

Well you get points for originality, I’ve never heard of a support skill that actually makes you take more damage. I think that’s a horrible suggestion for a skill that heals, the drawback you suggest should be used for something that allows you to hit harder rather than something that heals.

A better drawback would be reducing your damage output by 33%, your sustain goes up but you become less of a threat.

Zanryu.3417:

Well you get points for originality, I’ve never heard of a support skill that actually makes you take more damage. I think that’s a horrible suggestion for a skill that heals, the drawback you suggest should be used for something that allows you to hit harder rather than something that heals.

A better drawback would be reducing your damage output by 33%, your sustain goes up but you become less of a threat.

Then you are turtling. That’s boring. You DON’T have to keep it on at all times. such a signet would make you wish to do it in order to hold a point.

You have to know when the signet would outheal the damage. You have to time it with other things to use safely

You can use it by going in and out of battle. As warriors used to do before the buff.

And that’s is similar to how the old healing signet worked.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Healing_Signet

Increasing damage taken and received would be utterly useless. Warriors already take damage to their teeth. If you made such a trade, you wouldn’t live enough to deal damage. That’s why I think Frenzy is an awful skill outside of combos.

If you have to use a skill that makes you temporarly squishier, it is better to stay away from the battlefield. And to use a skill that rewards you for retreating at the right time.

you suggestion is flat out stupid. no way to get around that, it’s pretty dumb

because the warrior lacks access to a lot of damage mitigation. (aoe blinds, protection, aegis, clones, pets, stealth) the warrior has to take the majority of the damage that they are dealt directly.

that is the entire reason that they have a large hp pool AND heavy armor. because they don’t have any other way of mitigating damage.

so your suggestion for a HEAL that increases the amount of damage that they take directly…

Fiorrello.8126:

you suggestion is flat out stupid. no way to get around that, it’s pretty dumb

because the warrior lacks access to a lot of damage mitigation. (aoe blinds, protection, aegis, clones, pets, stealth) the warrior has to take the majority of the damage that they are dealt directly.

that is the entire reason that they have a large hp pool AND heavy armor. because they don’t have any other way of mitigating damage.

so your suggestion for a HEAL that increases the amount of damage that they take directly…

Yeah, you will have to avoid being hit during that time. Time to put mobility and cc to good use.

Then you have to tweak the healing to make sure you don’t need to stay in it too much and you don’t die too fast.

I do not own a warrior. Probably will never roll one also. From me personal experience, the main problem is that when a warrior is running away it is nearly impossible to catch them. With the correct food / runes /traits they can get up to almost no immobilize or cripple duration. Along with the passive regen from the Healing Signet. No other class in the game has a passive regen for a heal. Instead we all have healing on attack (for like 200 a hit). The reason people have an issue with the Healing Signet is because warriors are able to get away and there is no way to stop them. They have the top mobility in my opinion in the game. If a warrior stays around for the duration of the fight, yes it is possible to kill them with burst and only burst.

ProxyDamage.9826:

(…without destroying everything else)

…And then you can focus on fixing what’s broken, such as useless or dysfunctional trait trees and skills.

Cheers.

Just like they did with the original d/d ele build and our current trait trees right!!! Because it worked so well in the past -_- , i wouldnt expect anything good to come from the incoming nerfs.

Devon.9061:

I do not own a warrior. Probably will never roll one also. From me personal experience, the main problem is that when a warrior is running away it is nearly impossible to catch them. With the correct food / runes /traits they can get up to almost no immobilize or cripple duration. Along with the passive regen from the Healing Signet. No other class in the game has a passive regen for a heal. Instead we all have healing on attack (for like 200 a hit). The reason people have an issue with the Healing Signet is because warriors are able to get away and there is no way to stop them. They have the top mobility in my opinion in the game. If a warrior stays around for the duration of the fight, yes it is possible to kill them with burst and only burst.

Why should it be any different, though? Should a Warrior be squishy just because many other Professions are? Why should they fall as fast as-for instance-a thief under intense firepower, if they lack the same escape measures and are basically a different, Heavy Armor Profession? Indeed the problem once was that even with all that vitality, it wasn’t hard to down Warriors due to poor sustain (and the Guardian, IME, is still way more resilient.) It is normal for a Warrior to not die easily in most Fantasy archetypes-even pen and paper RPGs.

Also, Warriors do not have the “best mobility” in the game-it all depends on the build they are using.

You have fought many Warriors, but have played none, which would explain your post. Nothing wrong with disliking the Warrior Profession to be sure, but it is much more easy to fight your enemy if you understand the way he/she thinks (or more accurately for GW2, the way it is being played.)

redslion.9675:

• Idea #1 (the easy one): Get rid of the actual passive effect.

This is the way to go. Signets that have the very same type of effects for both active and passive are biased towards either always or never being activated (whichever effect is the superior). It’s too good of a heal anyway (the best consistent HPS afaik.), considering that you don’t need to waste any time casting it (huge benefit for bunkers and melee) or risking it being interrupted/poisoned.

Make it give a lot bigger active heal and something like some of these as passive (just off the top of my head):

• reduced condition duration on self
• increased boon duration
• increased healing power (makes the most sense, would synergize well with shout-heal builds and regen builds with adrenal health and the like)

Star Ace.5207:

Devon.9061:

I do not own a warrior. Probably will never roll one also. From me personal experience, the main problem is that when a warrior is running away it is nearly impossible to catch them. With the correct food / runes /traits they can get up to almost no immobilize or cripple duration. Along with the passive regen from the Healing Signet. No other class in the game has a passive regen for a heal. Instead we all have healing on attack (for like 200 a hit). The reason people have an issue with the Healing Signet is because warriors are able to get away and there is no way to stop them. They have the top mobility in my opinion in the game. If a warrior stays around for the duration of the fight, yes it is possible to kill them with burst and only burst.

Why should it be any different, though? Should a Warrior be squishy just because many other Professions are? Why should they fall as fast as-for instance-a thief under intense firepower, if they lack the same escape measures and are basically a different, Heavy Armor Profession? Indeed the problem once was that even with all that vitality, it wasn’t hard to down Warriors due to poor sustain (and the Guardian, IME, is still way more resilient.) It is normal for a Warrior to not die easily in most Fantasy archetypes-even pen and paper RPGs.

Also, Warriors do not have the “best mobility” in the game-it all depends on the build they are using.

You have fought many Warriors, but have played none, which would explain your post. Nothing wrong with disliking the Warrior Profession to be sure, but it is much more easy to fight your enemy if you understand the way he/she thinks (or more accurately for GW2, the way it is being played.)

I generally agree with StarAce here. Healing signet is very largely the warriors sustainability and thus, in part, survivability, but even as it is now its not comparable to a guardians (not that im asking for it to be). I mean we have no reflects, no protection and i think thats rightly so, because those should be the domain of guardians. So HS is rounding off that lack of sustain so that we remain, as a soldier/heavy armor class, a viable frontline profession.

My opinion is that if there is a problem with the actual skill its not the passive, but rather the lackluster active, which shud do something other than just heal some hitpoints.

Yeah, give warrior 200 heal each time he deals damage. If I can strike five targets with GS autoattack (not that hard with AI), I’ll have 1000 health. I can strike twice per second.

Here, 2000 hps. This would give wars an interesting job: forcing fights off points. On open fields warrior have always been more vulnerable (unless they run away).

I’d like the idea, the more you stand in the heat of the battle, the more you heal.

Healing signet: Lower the base healing + scale better to healing power.

redslion.9675:

Yeah, give warrior 200 heal each time he deals damage. If I can strike five targets with GS autoattack (not that hard with AI), I’ll have 1000 health. I can strike twice per second.

Here, 2000 hps. This would give wars an interesting job: forcing fights off points. On open fields warrior have always been more vulnerable (unless they run away).

I’d like the idea, the more you stand in the heat of the battle, the more you heal.

If you want whirling axe to be a full heal. They did this with guard leech until people used multi hit attacks and healed way more than they got hurt

Heta.8629:

redslion.9675:

Yeah, give warrior 200 heal each time he deals damage. If I can strike five targets with GS autoattack (not that hard with AI), I’ll have 1000 health. I can strike twice per second.

Here, 2000 hps. This would give wars an interesting job: forcing fights off points. On open fields warrior have always been more vulnerable (unless they run away).

I’d like the idea, the more you stand in the heat of the battle, the more you heal.

If you want whirling axe to be a full heal. They did this with guard leech until people used multi hit attacks and healed way more than they got hurt

I admit I was a bit sarcastic.XD

Warrior already does that job, actually.

@OP:

You are right that the healing signet is the problem on a warrior. All of the other nerfs in the december preview are not needed.

Plain and simple. If a warrior wants to run zerker or soldiers or the like, the healing signet should heal for less than today. If the warrior wants to focus on a healing power build, it should heal for more than today.

ProxyDamage.9826:

…And then you can focus on fixing what’s broken, such as useless or dysfunctional trait trees and skills.

Cheers.

I agree with what you said about Healing Signet being backwards, but I don’t think you can pin all of “omfg warrior op nerf nerf” on Healing Signet alone.

Whatever happens, these are the changes. IMHO making HS weaker might be a bit of an overkill now.

i don’t think these nerfs are enough. healing signet is still the root of it all. then again, time will tell.

if the pattern of thief nerfs are anything to go by, you’ll keep on receiving nerfs for every successive patch until healing signet (ie perma stealth) is finally nerfed. by that time, not only healing signet will be nerfed, every single one of your weapon set will also end up nerfed.