Guild Wars 2

Hello all,

I am trying to optimize a tank-y warrior build for PvE/WvW that can still dish out some damage. I have experimented with various weapon setups, but I am looking for something that will allow me to engage/disengage enemies while also allowing for a fair amount of defensive options either in the form of blocking or cc. Preferably, I would like one of the weapons to be ranged, but if there is good reason to abandoning this I am happy to consider it.

Here are the bare bones of the build:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.0|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|0.0.u289.u57b.a6|0.0|5x.60.6c.6h.0|e

This much I would like to keep intact, so it is mostly the gearing with which I am concerned.

I appreciate all the feedback received in the previous iteration of this topic. Initially I was running a sword/sword set, but I did not feel “functional” enough. I guess the condition damage route just is not for me, though, at least not purely. On the other hand, I find pure power builds using greatsword to also be problematic. Of course, one obvious suggestion is to just swap professions, but I really enjoy my warrior and I find myself capable with various setups…I just really want to optimize.

With those traits I would go with Dire Armor, Carrion weapons and Rabid accessories, you could go full Apothecary for better regen but you would sacrifice a lot of damage output. I would use food and sharpening stones to increase direct damage.

What if consumables are not an option for some reason (e.g. out of money)? Also, does the increase in condition damage significantly outweigh the direct damage from berserker gear? Originally, I ran this build with a soldier set, but it felt a bit slow at killing.

Etaoin.4362:

What if consumables are not an option for some reason (e.g. out of money)? Also, does the increase in condition damage significantly outweigh the direct damage from berserker gear? Originally, I ran this build with a soldier set, but it felt a bit slow at killing.

The off hand sword really excels at condition damage and is kind of waste not to pair it with condition spec armor. If you want to go with zerker gear (which would primarily be a direct damage build) I would suggest using a sword/shield or even a sword mace longbow setup.

Julie Yann.5379:

The off hand sword really excels at condition damage and is kind of waste not to pair it with condition spec armor. If you want to go with zerker gear (which would primarily be a direct damage build) I would suggest using a sword/shield or even a sword mace longbow setup.

Right, I understand that. I was just wondering if a hybrid approach was at all viable, especially since a lot of folks bring tons of condi- and cc-removal.

I will give pure condi-damage a shot and see how the build fares, though. I will also try the sword/shield and sword/mace. Tyvm!

Etaoin.4362:

What if consumables are not an option for some reason (e.g. out of money)? Also, does the increase in condition damage significantly outweigh the direct damage from berserker gear? Originally, I ran this build with a soldier set, but it felt a bit slow at killing.

Soldier with UF is decent. You can pressure people to lose 1v2.

Say you went full Rabid, your damage output will still be ok but not fast enough to kill some people who are smart enough to run.

Try going full rabid, regen banner. Dogged march isn’t worth it if you are using LB(range), Sword for leaping and got cleansing ire. The minor traits in that line aren’t that better, anyway.

Obviously use the crystals, food and stack weapons in your bags. Out of money is not an excuse. There are slightly worse and cheaper versions. Same goes for stack sigils.

I tried going full rabid with apothec trinkets like pineapple did but the damage was a bit low so 1/4 of my targets got away. You do have superior survivability to outlast two baddies. Healing stats are inferior in this game so you won’t lose or gain much by dropping or using them.

Interesting and good points. Okay, so what if I opt to swap over to sword/shield for melee and swap Dogged March for Shield Mastery? That looks like more of a hybrid direct/condition damage build with some minor control, although it cuts into damage output by removing torment. If I went this route, would rabid/dire still be recommended, or should I try a different set?

I should probably clarify: the main use of this build will likely be general PvE and WvW roaming with occasional zerg fights. That latter bit is why I am looking to make survival a major focus. Of course, surviving in GW2 is not just about stacking toughness and vitality, so that is where the offense comes in, and that is why I appreciate the feedback on balancing passive defense with active offense/defense.

Etaoin.4362:

Interesting and good points. Okay, so what if I opt to swap over to sword/shield for melee and swap Dogged March for Shield Mastery? That looks like more of a hybrid direct/condition damage build with some minor control, although it cuts into damage output by removing torment. If I went this route, would rabid/dire still be recommended, or should I try a different set?

I should probably clarify: the main use of this build will likely be general PvE and WvW roaming with occasional zerg fights. That latter bit is why I am looking to make survival a major focus. Of course, surviving in GW2 is not just about stacking toughness and vitality, so that is where the offense comes in, and that is why I appreciate the feedback on balancing passive defense with active offense/defense.

Rabid/Dire is going to be it for a condi build, unless going hybrid which is still reccomend celestial over carrion. Try to shoot for ~20k health and the rest rabid. Also with a shield offhand i think perplexity runes would synergies very well, along with stomp or bulls charge for a utility.

I run a similar build, though with 10 in Arms (from Tactics) to get Deep Cuts. I use Dire armor and everything else Rabid. Works okay for me.

All right, I have tried out a few of the suggestions on offer here. The condi damage is nice, but it just feels too niche; my opponents either run away and/or cleanse the conditions too quickly. Maybe that is just bad luck, though.

What about a mace/shield setup in place of sword/sword? I have not seen this discussed anywhere, and I ran it for a while in sPvP today; it seemed to work fairly well there. Thoughts?

Etaoin.4362:

All right, I have tried out a few of the suggestions on offer here. The condi damage is nice, but it just feels too niche; my opponents either run away and/or cleanse the conditions too quickly. Maybe that is just bad luck, though.

What about a mace/shield setup in place of sword/sword? I have not seen this discussed anywhere, and I ran it for a while in sPvP today; it seemed to work fairly well there. Thoughts?

The main problem with mace/shield is the lack of mobility. You would need to pair it with a sword/x or a gs or you will easily be kited.

Ah, sorry, I meant mace/sword, not mace/shield, but the point still applies. On the other hand, my swap is a ranged weapon (long bow). I could just pack on sword/x or gs, though.

Etaoin.4362:

Ah, sorry, I meant mace/sword, not mace/shield, but the point still applies. On the other hand, my swap is a ranged weapon (long bow). I could just pack on sword/x or gs, though.

If you use a GS in a condi build, you’re using it ONLY for the mobility never attack with. That also means you need as much condi application you can get out of you offset.

Experiment with what you like, but theres a reason people use S/S and LB in condi builds. It has mobility, range, best condi application, and soft CC.

Here is what i use. Also furious is amazing. You can literally use your f1s off CD. Also since dual shot is 2 hits, if both of them crit your getting 6 strikes of adrenaline from one auto. My favorite part is the longbow auto hits twice, allowing twice the chance for on crit affects. I’ve gotten 10+ stacks of bleed and burn, all from just using LB.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAscTjkOFvpQCPMxBEkCNsKOPSilg8UKmD7A-jECBYhCiUFRkkGITqIas1XFRjVzATliIq2hoIa1CBsYNA-w

Ill swap out zerker stance for endure pain based on whatever build ill be fighting

Runes are pretty important. We get 50% bleed duration from traits, 40% condi duration from food, and 10% condi duration from runes. In total, bleeds are 100% duration, and burns are 50% duration. Plus that fear from the x6 of nightmare always seems to off at the clutchest moments for me.

That’s a really cool build, Carp. I definitely see the utility of it. Added to bookmarks

That being said, I’m not so sure this play-style is for me after running with it a bit in WvW and PvE. When I switched out my shield for a sword a ways back, it was because I thought it might end up being more ergonomic. The build has worked quite well, but moving more toward condition-based kills has not been that effective for me (I still rely mostly on raw damage like with Final Thrust and Arcing Arrow to finish off foes).

Perhaps what is in order, then, is a different weapon and gear set altogether? I just do not want to sacrifice the survivability and supportiveness of my current utility/trait setup, especially when I am in a team situation.

Hmm… I’d definitely suggest different weapons then. I think if you practices and watched some videos with the condi build tho that would help you a lot. I almost never swap to Sw except to reapply torment and to finish people off with leap and sword f1. You could also try a hybrid build. Just swap celestial armor in on the build i put above.

So, the big question. Do you want to be a total tank, with 0 damage output? Or a tanky dps, still tanky but some decent damage output as well. Or do you want to be a high damage build with some decent defense? For all out tankiness slap on PTV gear with 10 0 30 30 0 and shouts heal. But your damage will be so insanely low you might as well not even have a weapon.

Now you said in your edited OP you don’t really like GS, but it can fit into a tanky dps build very well. I think Sw/Sh synergies very well with GS since shield bash and sword f1 are the perfect set ups for 100blades.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIIQNAseRjkOFvBPqQMxBEkCNsKMP6BgoIUKmD7A-jkCBYfQYLChkFRkKAI5RaNBSIsZoIas6aYqYER1WzER1CBYeCA-w

Final thrust hits EXTREMELY hard below 50%. Also, its kind of a strange balance between using your adrenaline or not. You’ve got a flat +15% dmg increase and health regen when its full, but you’ve also got cleansing ire and 20 in discipline.

When you use f1 on sword if you swap weapons, the immobilize will lay the whole 6 seconds and you can use 100b.

Well, I guess to answer the first question I would have to say that I am looking for something more along the lines of the first option (given I run 0/0/30/30/10). I want to deal as much damage as possible, but I am not looking to make an outright DPS’er.

That is what led me here to ask about gear from the beginning: It seems that at some point stacking additional toughness and vitality would be less and less effective (e.g. Is that extra 100 toughness really doing anything?). At that point, it seems it would be better to build for direct or condition damage. My question is at what point do you stop seeing a distinct benefit from armor rating post, say, 3300, or do you keep getting significant reductions for incoming damage?

I am familiar with some of the resources on this (e.g. the original guru thread on damage calculations), but it seems like there would be some point at which it becomes more prudent to focus on damage output rather than input, even if you want to go tank-y.

My suggestion would be PVT gear with offensive runes and trinkets/weapons. Sword/shield+Greatsword.

It seems like you’re looking for a halfway, jack-of-all-trades build. If so, I’d rethink your traits. One trait in your entire build adds to your DPS, and that trait is the one based on your toughness.

You want as much damage as you can, but not a pure DPS build. You want a roaming build, but one with a lot of survivability for zergs. These are on competing ends of the proverbial build spectrum. 0/0/30/30/10 is always going to lean heavily on the tanking end. Gearing with DPS gear and runes will not be optimal with this build. No DPS gear with will synergize well with this build. No matter where diminishing returns begins on toughness, you will still get more mileage out of toughness than any DPS stat. You even have a trait that gives power based on your toughness.

Etaoin.4362:

Well, I guess to answer the first question I would have to say that I am looking for something more along the lines of the first option (given I run 0/0/30/30/10). I want to deal as much damage as possible, but I am not looking to make an outright DPS’er.

That is what led me here to ask about gear from the beginning: It seems that at some point stacking additional toughness and vitality would be less and less effective (e.g. Is that extra 100 toughness really doing anything?). At that point, it seems it would be better to build for direct or condition damage. My question is at what point do you stop seeing a distinct benefit from armor rating post, say, 3300, or do you keep getting significant reductions for incoming damage?

I am familiar with some of the resources on this (e.g. the original guru thread on damage calculations), but it seems like there would be some point at which it becomes more prudent to focus on damage output rather than input, even if you want to go tank-y.

I think 1700-2kish toughness is where DR starts. Now dolyak signet and 5 in defense will give you 280 toughness, so its up to you to include that or not when min maxing your gear. I think when solo roaming tho, the biggest thing is killing your enemies as quick as possible to lessen the chance of more enemies or a Zerg appearing. That and mobility. Full tank builds dont really have a place, except in zergs. We already are pretty tanky with adrenal health and healing signet, and as long as youve got 1700 toughness minimum, you’ll be a force to be reckoned with.

@Traitine: I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily looking for a jack-of-all trades (I definitely lean toward tank-y or bunker-y tendencies), but I see your point. In that case, would you suggest I go full-on tank and forsake all attempts at upping my damage-output? If so, then what weapons and runes would you suggest, and (finally) what is the major advantage of Soldier’s over Knight’s gear, especially if I pack lots of condition-cleanse?

@Carpboy: DR starts on toughness rather than overall armor level? I always thought it applied to overall armor. In that case, would that also mean that at around 3200 armor I have more than enough? Also, on the condition-oriented builds: is sword/sword always preferable to sword/shield?

Etaoin.4362:

@Traitine: I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily looking for a jack-of-all trades (I definitely lean toward tank-y or bunker-y tendencies), but I see your point. In that case, would you suggest I go full-on tank and forsake all attempts at upping my damage-output? If so, then what weapons and runes would you suggest, and (finally) what is the major advantage of Soldier’s over Knight’s gear, especially if I pack lots of condition-cleanse?

@Carpboy: DR starts on toughness rather than overall armor level? I always thought it applied to overall armor. In that case, would that also mean that at around 3200 armor I have more than enough? Also, on the condition-oriented builds: is sword/sword always preferable to sword/shield?

If you are trying to go tank, odds are you will not have a high crit damage and you will probably not be traited with a lot of precision. You are better off going with PVT for greater direct damage. If you want to go the Condition route, dire armor (CVT) will give you the most survivability while still maintaining great condition DPS. There is a tanky, high burst hammer build but sadly it is getting nerfed to kitten in december so I would wait before even thinking about that one.

My suggestion is, if you want to use sw/sh spec in a power build. If you want to use sw/sw spec in a condition build. Longbow is just good either way.

Julie Yann.5379:

If you are trying to go tank, odds are you will not have a high crit damage and you will probably not be traited with a lot of precision. You are better off going with PVT for greater direct damage. If you want to go the Condition route, dire armor (CVT) will give you the most survivability while still maintaining great condition DPS. There is a tanky, high burst hammer build but sadly it is getting nerfed to kitten in december so I would wait before even thinking about that one.

My suggestion is, if you want to use sw/sh spec in a power build. If you want to use sw/sw spec in a condition build. Longbow is just good either way.

Sad to hear about the hammer (25% damage reduction? 10-15% would have been enough…), but I guess that is the way the cookie crumbles.

I was thinking PVT with sw/sh + lb myself. I run such a setup in sPvP and it works bizarrely well for bunkering (at least in my experience; PvP pros, please do not flame me!). What runes would you suggest, then? I have been using Sup. Lyssa, but I am guessing Sup. Hoelbrak or Sup. Melandru might be better choices? Are there other options to consider as well?

Again, thanks for all the advice so far, guys. I think we are nearing the light at the end of the tunnel!

I think lyssa is good, especially if youve got the trained signet cool down. Divinity and melandru are good, scholar actually works even better on tanky wares, since you regen up to full all the time. I forgot to ask, is this for spvp or WvW?

Carpboy.7145:

I think lyssa is good, especially if youve got the trained signet cool down. Divinity and melandru are good, scholar actually works even better on tanky wares, since you regen up to full all the time. I forgot to ask, is this for spvp or WvW?

Another alternative to Melandru is Hoelbrak which is also pretty cheap.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-s;4NKVP0_4BL-60;9;6TT9;417B51B3;0_-k0_;1CqNYCqNYn-Fd0-iY90;1v-y02253D_I53uVIN4N0;9;9;9;9;9;9;0G-6T

I hadn’t considered scholar. I might have to try that for the upped damage output. I’ve also used Hoelbrak, but I love the reduced stun duration from Melandru. The power boost is nice, though. I guess Lyssa is a solid choice, then (and I do love that condition cleanse).

The build itself is a bit of an all-rounder. Clearly it’s not optimized for PvE (otherwise I’d just go bersker GS, etc, etc), so the two remaining choices would be sPvP and WvW.

As I mentioned, I play around with this sort of build a lot in PvP, and I have fun with it. It’s not optimal for any particular role, but it offers some decent support and bunker capacity (assuming I haven’t just blown berserker stance, dolyak signet, last stand, AND shrug it off…which happens when fighting three necros at once). I’m no pro, though, so it’s mostly just for laughs. It is nice seeing my score at or toward the top of the match, although that could be a fluke.

For WvW, I tend to either run with a zerg or do a little roaming when the map is quiet. When on my own or with a small group, I use the build to take camps and guard posts, and I guess it does so relatively well. I die plenty, but I also survive being outmatched fairly well, and I feel comfortable going up against players at my level in a 1v1 (although the best time I ever had was when I took down two Asura thieves that tried to gank me).

Should that affect my rune choices?

@Rigel: I am not quite sure what the underlying theory of the build is. Could you explain it for me?

Etaoin.4362:

I hadn’t considered scholar. I might have to try that for the upped damage output. I’ve also used Hoelbrak, but I love the reduced stun duration from Melandru. The power boost is nice, though. I guess Lyssa is a solid choice, then (and I do love that condition cleanse).

The build itself is a bit of an all-rounder. Clearly it’s not optimized for PvE (otherwise I’d just go bersker GS, etc, etc), so the two remaining choices would be sPvP and WvW.

As I mentioned, I play around with this sort of build a lot in PvP, and I have fun with it. It’s not optimal for any particular role, but it offers some decent support and bunker capacity (assuming I haven’t just blown berserker stance, dolyak signet, last stand, AND shrug it off…which happens when fighting three necros at once). I’m no pro, though, so it’s mostly just for laughs. It is nice seeing my score at or toward the top of the match, although that could be a fluke.

For WvW, I tend to either run with a zerg or do a little roaming when the map is quiet. When on my own or with a small group, I use the build to take camps and guard posts, and I guess it does so relatively well. I die plenty, but I also survive being outmatched fairly well, and I feel comfortable going up against players at my level in a 1v1 (although the best time I ever had was when I took down two Asura thieves that tried to gank me).

Should that affect my rune choices?

@Rigel: I am not quite sure what the underlying theory of the build is. Could you explain it for me?

I think the biggest thing with builds is doing what you feel comfortable with and what works for you. Someone else could try it and get completely different results. So i think youre good.

Carpboy.7145:

I think the biggest thing with builds is doing what you feel comfortable with and what works for you. Someone else could try it and get completely different results. So i think youre good.

I totally agree with this. For example, I have tried a SS/LB build exactly like yours and I was horrible with it and could not survive encounters with good players very well. I swapped to a 0-20-20-0-30 Dire with runes of antitoxin and now find myself to be a force to recon with.

Guys, thanks so much for all the advice you’ve given and patience you’ve shown; it has been hugely helpful. I will continue to experiment with the gear setups I’ve narrowed it down to based on this discussion, but I now do feel more comfortable with the setup I am running. Again, huge thanks to all of you

I want to put in my feelings first before I make my suggestions to you. First I don’t think condition or that tanky of a build is needed in PvE, there is already a pleturea of PvE build discussion about tank vs serker. While I won’t carry the Zerker flag, I don’t think pure tank or Condi is the way to go and definitely not as effective for the group.

That said if you must have X/X/30/30/X build
I would 0/10/30/30/0 is better. LB+S/S. http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

Full Dire or Dire/Rabid hybrid if you want a bit more bleeds. My buddy says it’s alright for dungeons (he was too lazy to swap it out). But a hybrid build that usually works decently is just the skull crack build and a few weapon swap and you have a decent PvE build. Though personally I’ve never done skull crack WvW or pvp so I don’t know, I just know my buddy has some pretty good successes with it.