Guild Wars 2

This guy did a ton of testing on Berserker, and his video has a lot of solid feedback IMO.

Berserker specific starts at 10 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_lk03XPeVA&start=598

Nice vid, but I (and I assume many others as well) have to disagree with the opinion of Gun Flame…

A few short example…
https://youtu.be/gxUfisPqLi0
https://youtu.be/rG9-7XynxhY?t=40s

The funny thing about his vid is that when he starts playing berserker on his mace/longbow condi spec, every person he fights that has half a clue destroys him.

This illustrates the complete lack of warrior survivability without double Endure Pain.

Not having Fast Hands baseline still destroys warrior versatility.

Cygnus.6903:

The funny thing about his vid is that when he starts playing berserker on his mace/longbow condi spec, every person he fights that has half a clue destroys him.

This illustrates the complete lack of warrior survivability without double Endure Pain.

Not having Fast Hands baseline still destroys warrior versatility.

Your thought that Fast Hands is needed in every build is misplaced. When it comes to Berserker, it is far from needed.

I actually tried to put fast hands into one of my builds but I just felt like the build lacked something crucial, so I went back to whatever it was I was using. And it’s the only build I’ve considered and am still considering whether fast hands is useful in it.

The only trait line that I used in every build was Defense because Cleansing Ire and Rousing Resilience are too good to pass up when it comes to Berserker or even Warrior in general and I would rather consider making Cleansing Ire baseline before Fast hands, just because of that fact.

You can check out some of my gameplay below and a few builds I tested in the description of the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1FV-QEzxbE

im actually one of the warrior players that doesnt believe fast hands needs to be baseline. However, after playing Berserker…. IT MUST be baseline. 15s cd, and its about “speed” and bursting, yet we need to take that one trait to make it even remotely come close to working as intended

Lol, the whole discple line is important. 25%MS and remove imobile on movement skill is also huge. 60 sec cool down on balance stance to get out of it is such a waste. Also, on wepswap remove condi. Heighten focus is also good and brust mastery is also good.

TBH discipline is crucial for berserker.
so is fast hand.
Primal bursts are 5 CD cooldown which has almost perfect synergy with fast hands
also with swap gain adrenaline minor in discipline, it’s amazing synergy right there.

Your belief in fast hands is your own folly. It’s great, it’s good but it isn’t needed.

Dirame.8521:

Your belief in fast hands is your own folly. It’s great, it’s good but it isn’t needed.

Then please, become the meta and shown us the way.

I’m not much of a warrior player but this argument looks interesting.

I don’t see how you’d need fast hands. All the other classes deal with the normal weapon swap cooldown just fine. You can make a more compelling argument for discipline as a whole. But saying you need fast hands baseline seems to be a bit much.

However I cannot properly make a counterpoint without understanding the argument for it, so if someone can show me exactly why just fast hands being baseline is needed for the warrior, then I’ll see if your argument compels me, a nonwarrior player about it.

^
I wouldn’t waste time trying to prove anything to a person who thinks Revenant is just as slow as Necro or is fair and fun to go against.

Simple brainwaves op.

TheDemonEmperor.6825:

Dirame.8521:

Your belief in fast hands is your own folly. It’s great, it’s good but it isn’t needed.

Then please, become the meta and shown us the way.

You wouldn’t listen to me even if I did so I think I’ll just wait for Rom or Lypion or someone in an almost popular competitive team to show you the way.

Hi,

nearlight.3064:

I don’t see how you’d need fast hands. All the other classes deal with the normal weapon swap cooldown just fine. You can make a more compelling argument for discipline as a whole. But saying you need fast hands baseline seems to be a bit much.

However I cannot properly make a counterpoint without understanding the argument for it, so if someone can show me exactly why just fast hands being baseline is needed for the warrior, then I’ll see if your argument compels me, a nonwarrior player about it.

This topic was discussed a few months ago in a lengthy thread. There were many good (and bad) inputs in the thread, feel free to scan it if you want to know more.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Make-Fast-Hands-Warrior-Sprint-Baseline/first

I don’t know if Fast Hands should be made baseline or not. I know, however, that I couldn’t play competitively without it (PvP-wise), because my skill rotations would suffer too much (you can just use the AA once your skills are on CD, the adrenaline-based mechanics is very simple, almost poor, it does not enhance much the basic gameplay – so I’d be kited to death without aggressive rotations).

Elegie.3620:

Hi,

nearlight.3064:

I don’t see how you’d need fast hands. All the other classes deal with the normal weapon swap cooldown just fine. You can make a more compelling argument for discipline as a whole. But saying you need fast hands baseline seems to be a bit much.

However I cannot properly make a counterpoint without understanding the argument for it, so if someone can show me exactly why just fast hands being baseline is needed for the warrior, then I’ll see if your argument compels me, a nonwarrior player about it.

This topic was discussed a few months ago in a lengthy thread. There were many good (and bad) inputs in the thread, feel free to scan it if you want to know more.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Make-Fast-Hands-Warrior-Sprint-Baseline/first

I don’t know if Fast Hands should be made baseline or not. I know, however, that I couldn’t play competitively without it (PvP-wise), because my skill rotations would suffer too much (you can just use the AA once your skills are on CD, the adrenaline-based mechanics is very simple, almost poor, it does not enhance much the basic gameplay – so I’d be kited to death without aggressive rotations).

Yeah after reading through the first page I’m not really convinced. Most of the arguments that supported fast hands were, “we should have this baseline becuase its a warrior thing”. And I don’t think that’s a good argument, especially since it doesn’t tie into warrior class mechanics on your own. Its just a way to avoid using autoattacks when things are on cooldown.

Something like Ilusionary Persona on the other hand needed to be baseline because the mesmer class mechanic was unviable weak and inflexible without it. With fast hands, that logic doesn’t make sense.

nearlight.3064:

Yeah after reading through the first page I’m not really convinced. Most of the arguments that supported fast hands were, “we should have this baseline becuase its a warrior thing”. And I don’t think that’s a good argument, especially since it doesn’t tie into warrior class mechanics on your own. Its just a way to avoid using autoattacks when things are on cooldown.

Something like Ilusionary Persona on the other hand needed to be baseline because the mesmer class mechanic was unviable weak and inflexible without it. With fast hands, that logic doesn’t make sense.

If you actually cared to know, you would have read more than a page.

Your counter rationale could be similarly applied to any class feature with about the same validity (i.e. not much). “Warriors, eles and guards get by without stealth, so I don’t see why the other classes need it”, “Engineers and eles get by without having an alt weapon set, so I don’t see why the others need it”, etc.

The simplest route to evaluate whether FH should be baseline is to infer it from the following:

Since launch, has there been a meta build that didn’t trait FH?

Yes, one. A dungeon build that camped one weapon to provide max might to the party.

Does pretty much every warrior build in a competitive arena (PvP, Wvw) trait FH, whether meta or not?

Maybe excluding a few outliers, it certainly appears so.

Is there any reason to think it’s not the (excellent) Discipline traitline and not FH specifically that’s capturing builds?

Yes, pre June 24 there were several builds that only went deep enough into Disc to get FH, often at the expense of other good traits on other lines.

Wouldn’t baseline FH make warriors OP?

Not unless you think they’re OP now, because just about every one has been running FH since launch, including Condi, direct damage, tank , and support builds.

As for IP, while I agree it was a good move for mesmers, the fact is there were viable mesmer builds (meta even) that didn’t trait it. Making it baseline opened up a decent instant damage hit, instant cc, and an instant invuln for mesmers, pretty much on demand, assuming the mes wasn’t going to trait it anyway. With FH baselined, pretty much nothing but greater build diversity.

Choppy.4183:

nearlight.3064:

Yeah after reading through the first page I’m not really convinced. Most of the arguments that supported fast hands were, “we should have this baseline becuase its a warrior thing”. And I don’t think that’s a good argument, especially since it doesn’t tie into warrior class mechanics on your own. Its just a way to avoid using autoattacks when things are on cooldown.

Something like Ilusionary Persona on the other hand needed to be baseline because the mesmer class mechanic was unviable weak and inflexible without it. With fast hands, that logic doesn’t make sense.

If you actually cared to know, you would have read more than a page.

Your counter rationale could be similarly applied to any class feature with about the same validity (i.e. not much). “Warriors, eles and guards get by without stealth, so I don’t see why the other classes need it”, “Engineers and eked get by without having an alt weapon set, so I don’t see why the others need it”, etc.

The simplest route to evaluate whether FH should be baseline is to infer it from the following:

Since launch, has there been a meta build that didn’t trait FH?

Yes, one. A dungeon build that camped one weapon to provide max might to the party.

Does pretty much every warrior build in a competitive arena (PvP, Wvw) trait FH, whether meta or not?

Maybe excluding a few outliers, it certainly appears so.

Is there any reason to think it’s the (excellent) Discipline traitline and not FH specifically that’s capturing builds?

Yes, pre June 24 there were several builds that only went deep enough into Disc to get FH, often at the expense of other good traits on other lines.

Wouldn’t baseline FH make warriors OP?

Not unless you think they’re OP now, because just about every one has been running FH since launch, including Condi, direct damage, tank , and support builds.

Just because something is strong and used in every build, is that enough to mean it should become a free trait?

How would you like an elementalist with a baseline elemental attunement, or a necromancer with a baseline vital persistance?

On second thought, I think I understand now. Is fast hands more similar to elemental attunement or vital persistance? Can you have a functionally good build without it? Maybe, maybe not. But I am certain that if something like fast hands was made baseline, traits like the two I mentioned above and others like grenadier on engi would have to receive similar treatment.

nearlight.3064:

Just because something is strong and used in every build, is that enough to mean it should become a free trait?

How would you like an elementalist with a baseline elemental attunement, or a necromancer with a baseline vital persistance?

On second thought, I think I understand now. Is fast hands more similar to elemental attunement or vital persistance? Can you have a functionally good build without it? Maybe, maybe not. But I am certain that if something like fast hands was made baseline, traits like the two I mentioned above and others like grenadier on engi would have to receive similar treatment.

That’s true, being strong isn’t a justification for making it baseline.

Do you find warriors to be OP with pretty much every warrior running the trait, no matter the build? Most people don’t.

That leads to the question, “would warriors be UP if they didn’t have FH?”.

Well, if we accept that warriors aren’t OP with the trait, the trait is strong, and there’s been an almost total absence of builds that don’t use FH across all aspects of the game (especially in competitive arenas), then I’d say yes, they probably would be UP without it.

The argument in favour of making FH baseline isn’t to bring more power to warriors. Whatever power it brings to the warrior class, pretty much all warriors already have it… they’ve been balanced to include that reality.

The argument for making FH baseline is about increasing the potential build diversity for the class. Discipline’s a strong line in its own right and hard to pass up, but practically nobody’s going to do it, especially in a competitive arena, as long as FH is there.

To try to steer this back to the topic of this thread, the need for FH to be competitive is what will keep Berserker from having any real presence in pvp (and probably wvw, maybe pve too), imo.

Elegie.3620:

…….I don’t know if Fast Hands should be made baseline or not. I know, however, that I couldn’t play competitively without it (PvP-wise), because my skill rotations would suffer too much (you can just use the AA once your skills are on CD, the adrenaline-based mechanics is very simple, almost poor, it does not enhance much the basic gameplay – so I’d be kited to death without aggressive rotations).

^^^ Some much this. While there are a few builds that might work fine (but not great) without it, there are so many more that require it. It’s like most of the warrior was designed with faster weapon swaps in mind and not having it seriously gimps your ability to keep enough pressure on your enemy.

Choppy.4183:

nearlight.3064:

Just because something is strong and used in every build, is that enough to mean it should become a free trait?

How would you like an elementalist with a baseline elemental attunement, or a necromancer with a baseline vital persistance?

On second thought, I think I understand now. Is fast hands more similar to elemental attunement or vital persistance? Can you have a functionally good build without it? Maybe, maybe not. But I am certain that if something like fast hands was made baseline, traits like the two I mentioned above and others like grenadier on engi would have to receive similar treatment.

That’s true, being strong isn’t a justification for making it baseline.

Do you find warriors to be OP with pretty much every warrior running the trait, no matter the build? Most people don’t.

That leads to the question, “would warriors be UP if they didn’t have FH?”.

Well, if we accept that warriors aren’t OP with the trait, the trait is strong, and there’s been an almost total absence of builds that don’t use FH across all aspects of the game (especially in competitive arenas), then I’d say yes, they probably would be UP without it.

The argument in favour of making FH baseline isn’t to bring more power to warriors. Whatever power it brings to the warrior class, pretty much all warriors already have it… they’ve been balanced to include that reality.

The argument for making FH baseline is about increasing the potential build diversity for the class. Discipline’s a strong line in its own right and hard to pass up, but practically nobody’s going to do it, especially in a competitive arena, as long as FH is there.

I regret opening this can of worms. Right now warrior is weak in my opinion, because it can’t abuse celestial stats, so its stuck being either a frail rampager that needs shoutguard support or a settler’s shoutbow that has almost no damage to speak of. There isn’t really a build thats suitably tanky that does decent damage at the same time, the bruiser role has been kinda diminished on them, and everything else that isn’t a bruiser is inferior.

But warriors all have the theoretical tools to use celestial, but it doesn’t work right now because the survivability isn’t there. Would fast hands help with this? What other viable build options would having this trait baseline open up?

nearlight.3064:

I regret opening this can of worms. Right now warrior is weak in my opinion, because it can’t abuse celestial stats, so its stuck being either a frail rampager that needs shoutguard support or a settler’s shoutbow that has almost no damage to speak of . And to be honest, only elementalist can really use celestial efficiently right now.

But warriors all have the theoretical tools to use celestial, but it doesn’t work right now because the survivability isn’t there. Would fast hands help with this? What other viable build options would having this trait baseline open up?

At the moment we pretty much require Defense and Discipline to be viable in PvP. Which limits us to 4 possible specialization combinations. Making FH baseline removes the requirement for discipline which would increase our possible specialization combinations to 10.

nearlight.3064:

Yeah after reading through the first page I’m not really convinced. Most of the arguments that supported fast hands were, “we should have this baseline becuase its a warrior thing”. And I don’t think that’s a good argument, especially since it doesn’t tie into warrior class mechanics on your own. Its just a way to avoid using autoattacks when things are on cooldown.

The thing is, the warrior would have to use the AA more than the other classes, because it is the class which has the less skills available in a window of 10s (thief has the same amount, but can x-tap weapon skills thanks to initiative).

If some of our skills were godlike, or if the mechanics somehow compensated for that low amount of skills, then why not? But nope. Also, the warrior is one of the most kitable class of all (no teleport, no stealth, no adds, telegraphed skills, melee-orientation). All this makes the warrior pretty weak.

Fast Hands structurally compensates for these weaknesses, by providing the warrior with better rotations, on par with its opponents. You might be viable without it, I don’t know – maybe some conditank thing, where you’d stay in your fire field and resist… But competitive? I think not.

Don’t hesitate to read on the thread I’ve referenced if the topic interests you, there are many interesting posts coming later.

nearlight.3064:

Something like Ilusionary Persona on the other hand needed to be baseline because the mesmer class mechanic was unviable weak and inflexible without it. With fast hands, that logic doesn’t make sense.

I’m afraid I disagree here. There were many strong builds not investing in Illusions, e.g. Domination / Duel / Chaos, like Blackwater for PU conditions, or lock-down builds.

no matter what other people say, the benefits of Fast Hands are just to large to ignore and pass over in most builds. This is just my theory on why Fast Hands is so good.

#1: Sigil swap: With Fast Hands, warriors have the unique ability to be able to use all 4 sigils on exactly a 10 second cooldown. This avoids having to "sigil stack", i.e having 2 energy sigils on both your weapon swaps. This is a very huge advantage.

#2: Warriors rely on alot of comboing. Alot of weapons like Mace/GS, Hammer/GS, Axe/GS rely on the ability to weapon swap quickly to execute deadly combos, and to stick onto the enemy. Otherwise the Warrior just becomes a sitting duck only able to execute strong skills with a chance to hit every 10 seconds.

#3: Warriors are mostly melee based. This is kind of an extension from point 2. This is arguable, but Warriors who are double melee (as Shinryuku pointed out) tend to rely more on the faster weapon swap. This is because the Warrior needs to be able to stick to the target, use CC and deal damage; all in melee range. If an enemy kites a warrior to death a Warrior is useless and can’t deal damage. Warrior lacks the ability to deal passive damage (through clones, symbols, pets, minions, set it and forget it skills, etc) and to deal damage from range (Longbow is NOT a real ranged weapon it is best used melee and please don’t even mention rifle). These two together result in a dependency on weapon swap.

#4: Warriors simply have less skills than most classes. This is true.

Mesmer: Have F1-F4, clones that deal damage and mostly fight ranged.
Elementalist: Have 20 different weapon skills that can be cycled through, enough said
Ranger: Perhaps a reduced weapon swap could be good for a double melee ranger, but they also have pets and a decent ranged weapon unlike a Warrior
Engineer: They have kits and have so many ways to deal free damage through bombs, mines, turrets, gadgets, AI, etc
Necro: Death shroud is basically a third weapon swap
Thief: They use an initiative system which pretty much makes skills readily available when needed as long as you manage initiative, or just spec trickery.
Guardian: They are pretty much the only class that doesn’t have a significant amount of skills more than the warrior has, and probably is most deserving of a reduced weapon swap. However, they have proved to still be very strong without it.

#5: Weapon swap is also tied to other powerful traits. Brawler’s Recovery and Versatile Rage are both very good traits that benefit from a reduced weapon swap.

There are also alot of other benefits inherent in a reduced weapon swap. It allows you to escape better, move across the map better, stick on to enemies better by not being locked into a weapon for 10 seconds.

I think it would be interesting if berserk mode, kind of like the revenant gave you access to some unique utility skills as well.

Dirame.8521:

Cygnus.6903:

The funny thing about his vid is that when he starts playing berserker on his mace/longbow condi spec, every person he fights that has half a clue destroys him.

This illustrates the complete lack of warrior survivability without double Endure Pain.

Not having Fast Hands baseline still destroys warrior versatility.

Your thought that Fast Hands is needed in every build is misplaced. When it comes to Berserker, it is far from needed.

I actually tried to put fast hands into one of my builds but I just felt like the build lacked something crucial, so I went back to whatever it was I was using. And it’s the only build I’ve considered and am still considering whether fast hands is useful in it.

The only trait line that I used in every build was Defense because Cleansing Ire and Rousing Resilience are too good to pass up when it comes to Berserker or even Warrior in general and I would rather consider making Cleansing Ire baseline before Fast hands, just because of that fact.

You can check out some of my gameplay below and a few builds I tested in the description of the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1FV-QEzxbE

You say my thought is misplaced, yet provide 0 argument to that statement. Every viable build outside of PvE since launch has had Fast Hands in it. Like somebody adequatly put it earlier, even when we had 14 traitpoints, people slotted 3 in Discipline for Fast Hands.

Cleansing Ire isn’t needed though. You can slot Last Stand and be fine with cleanse on swap, Signet of Stamina and Zerker Stance. Hell, if you take Arms, adrenaline build up won’t be a problem either.

Cygnus.6903:

You say my thought is misplaced, yet provide 0 argument to that statement.

The link I posted shows me playing without fast hands and still turning people into mush.

Cygnus.6903:

Cleansing Ire isn’t needed though. You can slot Last Stand and be fine with cleanse on swap, Signet of Stamina and Zerker Stance. Hell, if you take Arms, adrenaline build up won’t be a problem either.

Signet of Stamina? Which popular build ever used that? And Brawler’s Recovery? When did that ever save anyone from a condi burst? Zerker Stance on the other hand is in almost every build regardless of whether you take Discipline or not.

Your argument should probably be Warrior should have a special mechanic that allows him to swap weapons faster because he is a Weapons Master and it probably fits aesthetically. Good good, great great. Can’t argue with that but the current stance of “Warriors need it to be viable!!” is just so wrong it’s like a broken vase that someone glued together and tried to sell as an antique.

Dirame.8521:

like a broken vase that someone glued together and tried to sell as an antique.

Perfect description of warrior > berserker. As it stand.

Does anyone buy vases anymore?

TheDemonEmperor.6825:

Perfect description of warrior > berserker. As it stand.

Opinion, not fact.

Dirame.8521:

Cygnus.6903:

The funny thing about his vid is that when he starts playing berserker on his mace/longbow condi spec, every person he fights that has half a clue destroys him.

This illustrates the complete lack of warrior survivability without double Endure Pain.

Not having Fast Hands baseline still destroys warrior versatility.

Your thought that Fast Hands is needed in every build is misplaced. When it comes to Berserker, it is far from needed.

I actually tried to put fast hands into one of my builds but I just felt like the build lacked something crucial, so I went back to whatever it was I was using. And it’s the only build I’ve considered and am still considering whether fast hands is useful in it.

The only trait line that I used in every build was Defense because Cleansing Ire and Rousing Resilience are too good to pass up when it comes to Berserker or even Warrior in general and I would rather consider making Cleansing Ire baseline before Fast hands, just because of that fact.

You can check out some of my gameplay below and a few builds I tested in the description of the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1FV-QEzxbE

I must say I have tried running without both and cleansing Ire is much easier to manage without.

If I had a choice I’d pick FH over Cleansing any day.

Rousing resilience doesn’t even come close to either for me.

Dirame.8521:

TheDemonEmperor.6825:

Perfect description of warrior > berserker. As it stand.

Opinion, not fact.

Too bad most are on this opinion.

Are u a highly rated warrior pvp ranker btw, i tend to listen to people that are highly skilled and has proven themself.

Dirame.8521:

Cygnus.6903:

You say my thought is misplaced, yet provide 0 argument to that statement.

The link I posted shows me playing without fast hands and still turning people into mush.

The link in my description has me doing the same, says nothing about the skill level of my opponent or that of my own.

Dirame.8521:

Cygnus.6903:

Cleansing Ire isn’t needed though. You can slot Last Stand and be fine with cleanse on swap, Signet of Stamina and Zerker Stance. Hell, if you take Arms, adrenaline build up won’t be a problem either.

Signet of Stamina? Which popular build ever used that? And Brawler’s Recovery? When did that ever save anyone from a condi burst? Zerker Stance on the other hand is in almost every build regardless of whether you take Discipline or not.

Your argument should probably be Warrior should have a special mechanic that allows him to swap weapons faster because he is a Weapons Master and it probably fits aesthetically. Good good, great great. Can’t argue with that but the current stance of “Warriors need it to be viable!!” is just so wrong it’s like a broken vase that someone glued together and tried to sell as an antique.

Dodging and using Zerk Stance at the opportune moment saves you from a condi burst. Is Cleansing Ire really so reliable for you that you can cleanse that condi burst with it every time? At this point I refer back to my earlier statement about opponent’s skill level.

My argument is that Fast Hands provides such an incredibly strong effect for warrior, that running it without it is so much weaker that it becomes unviable. Maybe in the most niche and detailed team setting, one could forgo it, but most of us don’t play MLG Team Wars 2.

Rotations, Sigil effects, hell, even the ability to be able to swap to your other set and use that one skill just in time… Fast Hands is the best trait in the game.

TheDemonEmperor.6825:

Dirame.8521:

TheDemonEmperor.6825:

Perfect description of warrior > berserker. As it stand.

Opinion, not fact.

Too bad most are on this opinion.

Are u a highly rated warrior pvp ranker btw, i tend to listen to people that are highly skilled and has proven themself.

I’ve also made that point but if you’re not going to listen to Shinryuku then I don’t know if Lypion or Rom can change your mind.

That being said, I’m a very fair person. I don’t BS if I think you’re right. I make builds all the time and I make a lot of bad ones, so I know when something sucks.

Cygnus.6903:

The link in my description has me doing the same, says nothing about the skill level of my opponent or that of my own.

If there were any moments in there that you could pick out that Fast hands would’ve helped then cool but you haven’t. Now your point is that I have to fight tough enemies in order to need fast hands. Doesn’t that mean I don’t always need Fast Hands? Therefore furthering my point?

Cygnus.6903:

Dodging and using Zerk Stance at the opportune moment saves you from a condi burst. Is Cleansing Ire really so reliable for you that you can cleanse that condi burst with it every time? At this point I refer back to my earlier statement about opponent’s skill level.

I guess you haven’t fought people who just sit and wait for your Zerk Stance to expire and just hit you hard with the condis. No amount of dodging can save you from people being methodical about how and when they burst you with condis. On the other hand, Cleansing Ire is nearly always there and unless some chain stuns you, or directly counters you spec, you’re mostly likely going to get Cleasing Ire off. Whilst in Zerker stance, any build and any one can just wait you out.

Cygnus.6903:

My argument is that Fast Hands provides such an incredibly strong effect for warrior, that running it without it is so much weaker that it becomes unviable. Maybe in the most niche and detailed team setting, one could forgo it, but most of us don’t play MLG Team Wars 2.

Rotations, Sigil effects, hell, even the ability to be able to swap to your other set and use that one skill just in time… Fast Hands is the best trait in the game.

How many on swap effects have less than 8s cooldown really? Rotations? Yes you are “quicker” but not necessarily “better”.
Fast hands is great for certain builds, yes but by no means needed for ALL builds.

You can use it in your Ham/GS build or your Axe/Rifle build or your Mace/GS build but it’s not needed in your LB/Ham build or your LB/Sw-Sh build. You’re just overstating it’s value because you’ve probably only been playing builds that use it.

Why don’t you lads fight it out? Use the same amulets and weapon sets, then one runs with FH and the other without and see what happens….

Do it for science!

ok, so if u hate it, dont use it. Every build u made, leave it out. Then come back and c how u miss it. Go for it, pve, pvp, wvw. C how bad things are without it. 5sec is huge.

TheDemonEmperor.6825:

ok, so if u hate it, dont use it. Every build u made, leave it out. Then come back and c how u miss it. Go for it, pve, pvp, wvw. C how bad things are without it. 5sec is huge.

Who said anything about hating fast hands? Fast Hands is awesome and it’s useful in certain specs but what we’re saying is, it isn’t necessary for all specs.

Dirame.8521:

If there were any moments in there that you could pick out that Fast hands would’ve helped then cool but you haven’t. Now your point is that I have to fight tough enemies in order to need fast hands. Doesn’t that mean I don’t always need Fast Hands? Therefore furthering my point?

You showed a single fight with a double melee set in your video. This doesn’t prove anything about fast hands on melee sets. The rest of your video, you showed a set with a ranged weapon. Fast hands isn’t needed in sets with a ranged weapon; which has been stated multiple times in this thread.

Dirame.8521:

I guess you haven’t fought people who just sit and wait for your Zerk Stance to expire and just hit you hard with the condis. No amount of dodging can save you from people being methodical about how and when they burst you with condis. On the other hand, Cleansing Ire is nearly always there and unless some chain stuns you, or directly counters you spec, you’re mostly likely going to get Cleasing Ire off. Whilst in Zerker stance, any build and any one can just wait you out.

Most warriors run healing signet, which has a decent active now. This active gives you resistance, which negates conditions; therefore condi bombs can be negated.

Dirame.8521:

How many on swap effects have less than 8s cooldown really? Rotations? Yes you are “quicker” but not necessarily “better”.
Fast hands is great for certain builds, yes but by no means needed for ALL builds.

You can use it in your Ham/GS build or your Axe/Rifle build or your Mace/GS build but it’s not needed in your LB/Ham build or your LB/Sw-Sh build. You’re just overstating it’s value because you’ve probably only been playing builds that use it.

There’s no reason for warriors not to have Fast Hands baselined. It’s a skill that ALL PvP & WvW meta builds use (I say meta because they’re builds proven to work, not someone trying to legitimize a theory crafted build). Warriors won’t become OP from it being baseline; and it’ll greatly increase build diversity.

Saying “I don’t see why warriors need fast hands baselined.” or “I can run builds without fast hands.” Isn’t an argument either.

Syde.5961:

You showed a single fight with a double melee set in your video. This doesn’t prove anything about fast hands on melee sets. The rest of your video, you showed a set with a ranged weapon. Fast hands isn’t needed in sets with a ranged weapon; which has been stated multiple times in this thread.

So….. it isn’t necessary in all builds then. Which is what I’ve been saying this whole time. And you’re also wrong about Fast Hands not being needed when using Ranged sets. It’s useful in certain types of ranged builds.

Syde.5961:

Most warriors run healing signet, which has a decent active now. This active gives you resistance, which negates conditions; therefore condi bombs can be negated.

I guess you forgot Necros and Revs can rip boons.

Syde.5961:

There’s no reason for warriors not to have Fast Hands baselined. It’s a skill that ALL PvP & WvW meta builds use (I say meta because they’re builds proven to work, not someone trying to legitimize a theory crafted build). Warriors won’t become OP from it being baseline; and it’ll greatly increase build diversity.

Saying “I don’t see why warriors need fast hands baselined.” or “I can run builds without fast hands.” Isn’t an argument either.

If the reason for using Discipline in all those builds was just because of Fast Hands then you might have a point.

Dirame.8521:

Syde.5961:

You showed a single fight with a double melee set in your video. This doesn’t prove anything about fast hands on melee sets. The rest of your video, you showed a set with a ranged weapon. Fast hands isn’t needed in sets with a ranged weapon; which has been stated multiple times in this thread.

So….. it isn’t necessary in all builds then. Which is what I’ve been saying this whole time. And you’re also wrong about Fast Hands not being needed when using Ranged sets. It’s useful in certain types of ranged builds.

Useful and needed are totally different things. Fast hands is useful in every build. In ranged builds it’s not needed but can be useful to have. Everyone has been saying this however, so if that’s your argument then I don’t know where you’re going with this. As far as the melee build goes; you haven’t posted enough footage or support behind it to prove to anyone that it’s effective enough to be used in a PvP/WvW/PvE scenario.

Dirame.8521:

Syde.5961:

Most warriors run healing signet, which has a decent active now. This active gives you resistance, which negates conditions; therefore condi bombs can be negated.

I guess you forgot Necros and Revs can rip boons.

If you’re failing to put up a fight against a condi build with healing signet, berserker ’s stance, and cleansing ire then you have a l2p problem and not a build problem.

Syde.5961:

You showed a single fight with a double melee set in your video. This doesn’t prove anything about fast hands on melee sets. The rest of your video, you showed a set with a ranged weapon. Fast hands isn’t needed in sets with a ranged weapon; which has been stated multiple times in this thread.

My SS/LB hybrid begs to differ. Fasthands is absolutely needed for proper combo rotations, stacking might and perma fire shield. Without FH it is a joke.

Syde.5961:

Useful and needed are totally different things. Fast hands is useful in every build. In ranged builds it’s not needed but can be useful to have. Everyone has been saying this however, so if that’s your argument then I don’t know where you’re going with this. As far as the melee build goes; you haven’t posted enough footage or support behind it to prove to anyone that it’s effective enough to be used in a PvP/WvW/PvE scenario.

You’ve been claiming all this time that its NEEDED in all Warrior builds and I’ve been trying to tell you, it isn’t. That’s why we’re still talking right now. But it seems you’ve agreed with me anyway so, I guess should just stop talking now.

Syde.5961:

If you’re failing to put up a fight against a condi build with healing signet, berserker ’s stance, and cleansing ire then you have a l2p problem and not a build problem.

Hahahaha, let me apologize for knowing a counter to everything a Warrior can throw at me. I mean, my gosh, I must be a bad player.

Fast Hands is still the superior option 95-100% of the time.

Dirame.8521:

You’ve been claiming all this time that its NEEDED in all Warrior builds and I’ve been trying to tell you, it isn’t. That’s why we’re still talking right now. But it seems you’ve agreed with me anyway so, I guess should just stop talking now.

My first post in this thread:

You showed a single fight with a double melee set in your video. This doesn’t prove anything about fast hands on melee sets. The rest of your video, you showed a set with a ranged weapon. Fast hands isn’t needed in sets with a ranged weapon; which has been stated multiple times in this thread.

Are you sure I’ve said anything about it being needed in ALL builds?
I’m saying it’s needed in melee sets, which has been stated multiple times in this thread.

Dirame.8521:

Hahahaha, let me apologize for knowing a counter to everything a Warrior can throw at me. I mean, my gosh, I must be a bad player.

I’m sorry, are you talking about trying to counter a warrior now? Or are you talking about knowing what to run in order to counter a build? If it’s trying to know what to run as a warrior in order to counter a certain build; then yes, it is still a l2p problem. Learn the class through and through before you argue about the class against people who play the class through and through.

Syde.5961:

My first post in this thread:

Are you sure I’ve said anything about it being needed in ALL builds?
I’m saying it’s needed in melee sets, which has been stated multiple times in this thread.

I apologize. You came into the conversation with your own opinion, where other people were arguing one point and I just assumed you were the same guy. But we seem to agree on something so GG!

Syde.5961:

I’m sorry, are you talking about trying to counter a warrior now? Or are you talking about knowing what to run in order to counter a build?

I was just telling you that there’s very little a Warrior can do against condis without Cleansing Ire. And I guess you’re saying I just need to learn to play without it. You’re probably right though, it’s just that I get my face smashed in without it so…..

No worries, and yeah cleansing ire is very difficult to play without in this meta. Actually, playing as a warrior in general right now is pretty difficult in this meta.

Bringing this thread back to the topic of the berserker and shin’s video. I think a lot of people were hoping for something more for warriors from HoT. However, berserker failed to do this. It was fairly lackluster, it brought some new traits that were decent; however the utilities seemed very weak and wouldn’t be picked over other utilities that we already have.

Fast hands has been something a large amount of warriors have been arguing for to become baseline, in order to bring something more to warriors. Which, berserker in its current state is not doing.

Dirame.8521:

snip

Right, I guess we are discussing semantics now. Off course it is not needed in every warrior build. In fact, you could decide not to slot any traits at all and you could still play the game.

See what I’m getting at here? You and I have a different perception of the meaning of the word needed, or maybe I am just using the wrong word.

Because yes, if you want to turn decent people into mush, then you will need FH. I made that point because when fighting noobs, you can also run the traitless build I mentioned earlier.

Back on topic, Berserker added decent condi options for warrior. But core issues that warrior has are not beign adressed, Fast Hands baseline is just one of them.

Cygnus.6903:

Right, I guess we are discussing semantics now. Off course it is not needed in every warrior build. In fact, you could decide not to slot any traits at all and you could still play the game.

See what I’m getting at here? You and I have a different perception of the meaning of the word needed, or maybe I am just using the wrong word.

First you say we’re arguing semantics and proceed to not further that point in any meaningful way.

I obviously haven’t fought any good players therefore I haven’t had any need for Fast Hands, right? I disagree. Every thief uses Trickery to get 15 ini but you still don’t see Anet making 15 initiative the standard.

Certain Warrior builds don’t need Fast Hands.

I’m personally done with this conversation now.

Dirame.8521:

Cygnus.6903:

Right, I guess we are discussing semantics now. Off course it is not needed in every warrior build. In fact, you could decide not to slot any traits at all and you could still play the game.

See what I’m getting at here? You and I have a different perception of the meaning of the word needed, or maybe I am just using the wrong word.

First you say we’re arguing semantics and proceed to not further that point in any meaningful way.

I obviously haven’t fought any good players therefore I haven’t had any need for Fast Hands, right? I disagree. Every thief uses Trickery to get 15 ini but you still don’t see Anet making 15 initiative the standard.

Certain Warrior builds don’t need Fast Hands.

I’m personally done with this conversation now.

Semantics is the study of meaning, and we have a different perception of the meaning of the word ‘needed’. That was what I was talking about, right?

The fact that you say all thieves use Trickery for 15 initiative shows not only a lack of understanding of the thief class in particular, but it also leads me to believe your general understanding of the game is lacking. Thieves take Trickery for Sleight of Hand, usually in combination with Bountiful Theft. Not for 3 extra intitiative, jeez.
And FYI, before we could trait 3 full lines, a lot of Thieves did not take Trickery in WvW roaming. Sure as hell they did not slot 3 points into Trickery for 3 extra initiative, lol. I’ve played thief almost as much as warrior since launch, so I know a bit about this.

Saying you obviously haven’t fought any good players blabla is just exaggerating to make a point, which is not a good way to discuss a point. I also never said you only fought noobs.

You don’t provide any new argument as to why Fast Hands isn’t needed for warriors, so I already gathered that you don’t want to discuss any further anyway. Kinda weak, but w/e.

Anet could buff “superior rune of the warrior” to get the 5 sec swap CD. Maybe not the best fix but i guess that would give more diversity to build.