Guild Wars 2

Will the base healing get improved on patch that coming? Its will be even weaker than its compared to surge and mending seening cd reduced on other healing abilities

I posted earlier but deleted to do some math.

Healing Signet (Active Coefficient .5)
3275/20=163.75
3275/15=218.33

+~33% HPS

Mending (Coefficient 1.0)
5560/25=222.4
5560/20=278.0

+~25% HPS

Healing Surge (Max adren only) (Coefficient 1.0)
8440/30=281.3
8440/25=337.6

+~20% HPS

These are base values. Take into account the difference in coefficients and Healing Signet active lags farther behind as Healing Power increases.

So, in case you missed this the first time, Mr. Peters:

Veritas.6071:

JonPeters.5630:

I think the passive might need to come up in non-healing builds. If I run a clerics tactics build this signet can hold its weight…

Jon

The Healing Signet has the lowest coefficient of all our heals. You may feel like it can, “hold its own weight” but the math says the other heals are stronger no matter how much healing stat you pile on…

Not to mention it’s the only heal that doesn’t simultaneously do something special like grant adrenaline/heal better or cleanse conditions.

Speaking to the community again, keep in mind the passive on Healing Signet. Every second Mending or Healing Surge sits off cooldown, Healing Signet becomes much more effective due to the passive.

Meh..i actually been using healing signet for long so i know it + and – pretty well.

Cast time untouched, also healing signet was meant to be a sustain healing rathen than burst.

While it is true that signet healing u up after receiving a first hit, or keeps at 100% hp from 1 stack of bleed, overtime both mending and surge will become much more effective over time compared to to signet.

The passive healing should get up to at least 300/sec (best if 350) to match surge in terms of healing. Keep in mind: its SUSTAIN healing over time.

Actually, with signet mastery it’s 12s per heal
3275/12= 273 which is pretty close to mending now. I’ll definitely be trying some funky altruism rune build around that!

peter.9024:

Actually, with signet mastery it’s 12s per heal
3275/12= 273 which is pretty close to mending now. I’ll definitely be trying some funky altruism rune build around that!

U must be the mighty Jon Peters 5 signet jojo.

Even if trained, mending is better than that as its actually removes..2 conditions.

It could be useful with some of the ‘X on healing’ effects you can get from certain sets of runes, etc. since it is now a very quick heal.

Scoobaniec.9561:

peter.9024:

Actually, with signet mastery it’s 12s per heal
3275/12= 273 which is pretty close to mending now. I’ll definitely be trying some funky altruism rune build around that!

U must be the mighty Jon Peters 5 signet jojo.

Even if trained, mending is better than that as its actually removes..2 conditions.

Yes.. I’m not arguing that. I just said that the heal per second is in line.

The CD improvement is nice (and Veritas the healing/sec ratio will improve further with the 20% cd trait), but I still was hoping for the passive to get stronger. Just take a look at the math (Unless I’m misinterpreting the term “Active Coefficient”).

[(200+0.033x)*cd] vs 3275+0.5x, where x is healing power
20sec cd: 4000+0.660x vs. 3275+0.5x
16sec cd: 3200+0.528x vs. 3275+0.5x
15sec cd: 3000+0.495x vs. 3275+0.5x
12sec cd: 2400+0.396x vs. 3275+0.5x

So currently, even when you have the CD trait you still lose healing potential whenever you actually use the signet. So this patch will mean we can get a burst heal with the signet and actually gain some health in the long run. It’s nice since I actually use the signet, but I still would have liked an increase in the passive as well.

Edit: well then that post took a bit longer to write/look up healing sig than I thought.

You hit the nail on the head with it being a sustain heal, Scoob. It does pretty well in long fights if the player can successfully avoid heavy burst, but I agree that if a player stays on top of Mending or Healing Surge, both of those heals are better options.

I think because our other two heals have attached abilities and are also capable of stronger healing, the signet definitely needs some love… not a ton but certainly a little. I’m not a balance whiz, but I believe its HPS should at least be equal with Mending, if not a tad lower.

As far as the Active vs the Passive having greater HPS, I’m a fan of this:

Assuming the base CD is 20 sec,
20 sec of the passive = Heal received for activating

Due to the coefficients, any additional healing power would alter that perfectly 1:1 passive:active ratio. CD reduction would change it too, but I believe it’s a solid foundation for a heal that functions in a sustain role.

And Wallace, I’m not following your math. What is this column?
0.660x
0.528x
0.495x
0.396x

What would fix the Healing Signet active is to make it insta-cast. All of your math on HPS comparison seems to have forgotten something very crucial…activation time.

I’m hoping the healing changes are real. I really like Healing Signet with my build, and I don’t think it’s as bad as everyone thinks it is. It’s still not great, but it supplements my build nicely. Soldiers amulet using Disc banner for regen + Adrenal Reserves and you have decent sustain without dipping into healing power. Signet works well with runes that decrease conditions applied to you. Even though I make Signet work, I do believe the passive should get a slight boost to make it on par with the other heals. Otherwise, Mending is looking pretty sexy.

Artaz.3819:

What would fix the Healing Signet active is to make it insta-cast. All of your math on HPS comparison seems to have forgotten something very crucial…activation time.

And the animation…

Can you imagine REALLY doing this every 12 seconds… ? You not only look silly, but its quite possibly the easiest interrupt animation in the entire game, how can you not see this in pvp?

Veritas.6071:

You hit the nail on the head with it being a sustain heal, Scoob. It does pretty well in long fights if the player can successfully avoid heavy burst, but I agree that if a player stays on top of Mending or Healing Surge, both of those heals are better options.

I think because our other two heals have attached abilities and are also capable of stronger healing, the signet definitely needs some love… not a ton but certainly a little. I’m not a balance whiz, but I believe its HPS should at least be equal with Mending, if not a tad lower.

As far as the Active vs the Passive having greater HPS, I’m a fan of this:

Assuming the base CD is 20 sec,
20 sec of the passive = Heal received for activating

Due to the coefficients, any additional healing power would alter that perfectly 1:1 passive:active ratio. CD reduction would change it too, but I believe it’s a solid foundation for a heal that functions in a sustain role.

And Wallace, I’m not following your math. What is this column?
0.660x
0.528x
0.495x
0.396x

Ah I was using the wiki’s formula. So that column is (healing power)cd(0.033) to see how much healing you would gain passively vs. actively during the cd of the skill.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet
The passive Healing Signet effect’s healing per second is improved by Healing Power with a coefficient of 0.033.

Artaz.3819:

What would fix the Healing Signet active is to make it insta-cast. All of your math on HPS comparison seems to have forgotten something very crucial…activation time.

I thought about mentioning that, but realized thakittens only 0.25s longer than the other heal skills. And currently you gain more healing without ever using it, so unless you need that burst heal you should never really use it. Even if you need the burst heal, it’s still better to use a block/invuln/cc skill to allow you more time to heal.

Daecollo.9578:

Artaz.3819:

What would fix the Healing Signet active is to make it insta-cast. All of your math on HPS comparison seems to have forgotten something very crucial…activation time.

And the animation…

Can you imagine REALLY doing this every 12 seconds… ? You not only look silly, but its quite possibly the easiest interrupt animation in the entire game, how can you not see this in pvp?

I don’t pvp much so I can’t comment much on your pm to me. But when you said

Daecollo.9578:

Now that mesmers can do 750 damage when INTERRUPTING YOU (far more then the heal heals for.) they can simply watch a warrior do that, interrupt him and do almost as much damage then backstab in direct damage to you.

my only comment is that it does heal for more than 750. I’ve never bothered using either of the other healing skills so I don’t even know what their animations look like. Though I still hope the passive gets more of a buff.

Wallace MacBix.2089:

Veritas.6071:

You hit the nail on the head with it being a sustain heal, Scoob. It does pretty well in long fights if the player can successfully avoid heavy burst, but I agree that if a player stays on top of Mending or Healing Surge, both of those heals are better options.

I think because our other two heals have attached abilities and are also capable of stronger healing, the signet definitely needs some love… not a ton but certainly a little. I’m not a balance whiz, but I believe its HPS should at least be equal with Mending, if not a tad lower.

As far as the Active vs the Passive having greater HPS, I’m a fan of this:

Assuming the base CD is 20 sec,
20 sec of the passive = Heal received for activating

Due to the coefficients, any additional healing power would alter that perfectly 1:1 passive:active ratio. CD reduction would change it too, but I believe it’s a solid foundation for a heal that functions in a sustain role.

And Wallace, I’m not following your math. What is this column?
0.660x
0.528x
0.495x
0.396x

Ah I was using the wiki’s formula. So that column is (healing power)cd(0.033) to see how much healing you would gain passively vs. actively during the cd of the skill.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet
The passive Healing Signet effect’s healing per second is improved by Healing Power with a coefficient of 0.033.

Maybe I’m totally missing something, but you’ve got the HP gain from the passive right here:

20sec cd: 4000
16sec cd: 3200
15sec cd: 3000
12sec cd: 2400

I just assumed you were multiplying the coefficient with 0 healing power.

And here is your formula [(200+0.033x)*cd] vs 3275+0.5x which looks good, but then there is that middle column that appears out of nowhere lol.

Are you trying to show that over X time, you accumulate Y amount of your healing power? If so,

20sec cd: 4000+0.660x
16sec cd: 3200+0.528x
15sec cd: 3000+0.495x
12sec cd: 2400+0.396x

Those + signs are terribly misleading.

Veritas.6071:

Wallace MacBix.2089:

Veritas.6071:

You hit the nail on the head with it being a sustain heal, Scoob. It does pretty well in long fights if the player can successfully avoid heavy burst, but I agree that if a player stays on top of Mending or Healing Surge, both of those heals are better options.

I think because our other two heals have attached abilities and are also capable of stronger healing, the signet definitely needs some love… not a ton but certainly a little. I’m not a balance whiz, but I believe its HPS should at least be equal with Mending, if not a tad lower.

As far as the Active vs the Passive having greater HPS, I’m a fan of this:

Assuming the base CD is 20 sec,
20 sec of the passive = Heal received for activating

Due to the coefficients, any additional healing power would alter that perfectly 1:1 passive:active ratio. CD reduction would change it too, but I believe it’s a solid foundation for a heal that functions in a sustain role.

And Wallace, I’m not following your math. What is this column?
0.660x
0.528x
0.495x
0.396x

Ah I was using the wiki’s formula. So that column is (healing power)cd(0.033) to see how much healing you would gain passively vs. actively during the cd of the skill.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet
The passive Healing Signet effect’s healing per second is improved by Healing Power with a coefficient of 0.033.

Maybe I’m totally missing something, but you’ve got the HP gain from the passive right here:

20sec cd: 4000
16sec cd: 3200
15sec cd: 3000
12sec cd: 2400

I just assumed you were multiplying the coefficient with 0 healing power.

Yes those numbers are just the passive times the cd.

Veritas.6071:

And here is your formula [(200+0.033x)*cd] vs 3275+0.5x which looks good, but then there is that middle column that appears out of nowhere lol.

Are you trying to show that over X time, you accumulate Y amount of your healing power? If so,

20sec cd: 4000+0.660x
16sec cd: 3200+0.528x
15sec cd: 3000+0.495x
12sec cd: 2400+0.396x

Those + signs are terribly misleading.

Sorry the 2nd column is to show how much extra you have for a given healing power (x) over the length of the cd. So “at a glance” you could see at 16sec cd.

16sec cd: 3200+0.528x vs. 3275+0.5x

That even though the active is slightly higher, you can see at what healing power the passive “wins”
0.028x=75 ==> x = 2378.57 healing power for the passive to be give more healing.

So yeah, the “X time” is the cd down in this case. Sorry if they were confusing, the equations made sense in my head, guess I didn’t convey them properly.

Wallace MacBix.2089:

Veritas.6071:

Wallace MacBix.2089:

Veritas.6071:

You hit the nail on the head with it being a sustain heal, Scoob. It does pretty well in long fights if the player can successfully avoid heavy burst, but I agree that if a player stays on top of Mending or Healing Surge, both of those heals are better options.

I think because our other two heals have attached abilities and are also capable of stronger healing, the signet definitely needs some love… not a ton but certainly a little. I’m not a balance whiz, but I believe its HPS should at least be equal with Mending, if not a tad lower.

As far as the Active vs the Passive having greater HPS, I’m a fan of this:

Assuming the base CD is 20 sec,
20 sec of the passive = Heal received for activating

Due to the coefficients, any additional healing power would alter that perfectly 1:1 passive:active ratio. CD reduction would change it too, but I believe it’s a solid foundation for a heal that functions in a sustain role.

And Wallace, I’m not following your math. What is this column?
0.660x
0.528x
0.495x
0.396x

Ah I was using the wiki’s formula. So that column is (healing power)cd(0.033) to see how much healing you would gain passively vs. actively during the cd of the skill.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet
The passive Healing Signet effect’s healing per second is improved by Healing Power with a coefficient of 0.033.

Maybe I’m totally missing something, but you’ve got the HP gain from the passive right here:

20sec cd: 4000
16sec cd: 3200
15sec cd: 3000
12sec cd: 2400

I just assumed you were multiplying the coefficient with 0 healing power.

Yes those numbers are just the passive times the cd.

Veritas.6071:

And here is your formula [(200+0.033x)*cd] vs 3275+0.5x which looks good, but then there is that middle column that appears out of nowhere lol.

Are you trying to show that over X time, you accumulate Y amount of your healing power? If so,

20sec cd: 4000+0.660x
16sec cd: 3200+0.528x
15sec cd: 3000+0.495x
12sec cd: 2400+0.396x

Those + signs are terribly misleading.

Sorry the 2nd column is to show how much extra you have for a given healing power (x) over the length of the cd. So “at a glance” you could see at 16sec cd.

16sec cd: 3200+0.528x vs. 3275+0.5x

That even though the active is slightly higher, you can see at what healing power the passive “wins”
0.028x=75 ==> x = 2378.57 healing power for the passive to be give more healing.

So yeah, the “X time” is the cd down in this case. Sorry if they were confusing, the equations made sense in my head, guess I didn’t convey them properly.

Gotcha haha. I’d never seen it conveyed like that. Cheers!

The whole point of using h.signet is for the passive regen, which didn’t get buffed at all. I don’t even think it’s possible to construct a scenario where h.signet beats healing surge. Even if you allow 20 seconds of regen + the use of the signet, surge still heals for more (bonus: surge has faster cast!). That’s how you know your skill is utter crap.

@Yaki:

Exactly, Unless they completely remove that kitteny activation time the skill is completely worthless. I wouldn’t do it and I will explain to you what I would do.

Healing Signet (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)
Passive: Grants regeneration.
Active: Heal yourself.
Healing Signet: 575 heal per sec (0.15*Healing Power.)
Healing: 8,575 (2.0)?

Warriors take double damage then most classes, therefore we need stronger heals. When you say things like: Omg! It could be 800 HPS if I add this and this! Remember, that warriors don’t have the evasion/protection rangers have, we don’t have perma vigor and the ability to gain endurance and evasion skills or invulnerability skills. We take double damage.

Not only should our heals heal for more, but they should have double the coefficients.

This makes both the active / passive with or without Healing Power good.

I was thinking about this and it’s really tricky. As you stated, with the other signets, they have 2 clear uses. Unfortunately, in the case of your healing skill, you want it to heal, right?! So to add extra healing to the active makes the player spam it, and to have a stronger passive, influences the player to normally sit on it.

My suggestion, an unaltered Healing Signet needs to have an active with less than a 1:1 HPS ratio compared to the passive. So something like:

x = Healing Power

20sec CD
Passive: 225+.04x (.8 coefficient over 20 sec)
Active: 3600+.64x (20% reduction in the passive .8 coefficient = .64)

^That works out to be a 20% reduction in healing to activate. (Passive 4500 + .8 coefficient hp over 20 sec and 3600 + .64 coefficient when activated.) Let’s look at two examples:

0 Healing Power:
Passive 225 × 20 = 4500 over 20 sec
Active 3600 / 20 or 180 HPS
225 × .8 = 180. Check, 80% reduction

1000 Healing Power
Passive 265 × 20 = 5300 over 20 sec
Active = 4240 / 20 or 212 HPS
265 × .8 = 212. Check, 80% reduction

Next, they need to attach some utility to the activation. Although I’m tempted to suggest a defensive idea, I feel like that could cause some conflict. It could lead to, "Do I keep my higher healing to deal with getting whomped on? Or do I take a reduction in healing to gain the defensive boost? The skill, in a way, would be working against itself. I don’t really like that idea.

I think a better idea would be to give the active an offensive effect. Something like, “Cure weakness, your next 3 landed attacks have 100% crit chance and deal 5% more damage.” That would give people something to play around. Do I sit on the heal? Or can I pop it, sacrifice 20% of my healing and take this guy down before I get dpsed? Or maybe I’m not taking much damage so I take a risk losing my heal for 20 seconds so I can dish out a little more damage? Or even, this guy is about to take me down, I’m gunna pop my heal to buy myself a couple more seconds then hope my 3 crits and a small damage increase will allow me to down him or force him to go defensive.

I think that’s a lot more interesting than calculating which is stronger over time, active or passive, and sitting on or spamming the heal.

I realize there may be better ideas and different math.

These were just my thoughts.

Honestly. They should just completely remove the active portion if we are going to have this problem/argument. Signets should be used for there passive effects and the active should be an emergency that shuts down the active for awile.

Healing Signet (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)
Passive: Grants regeneration.
Active: Heal yourself.
Healing Signet: 575 heal per sec (0.15*Healing Power.)
Healing: 1150 heal per sec for 10 seconds. (0.3)?

There, now you have an emergency that is worth it. The healing should be powerful due to the lack of endurance gain and evasion and protection the warrior has.

Veritas.6071:

Posted this in the other Healing Signet thread but I realize it probably doesn’t get a ton of views anymore so I’m re-posting here:

Veritas.6071:

Wallace MacBix.2089:

That seems a big of a strong boost. Between Rune of the Dolyak (30hp/sec), Adrenal Healing (360/3sec) and your suggestion you could heal ~800-1k hp per sec. Once you consider using any invulnerable/cc/block skills you can mostly ignore every having to use the active heal.

I’ve been using a signet build since beta and while the Signet of Fury ~9% crit bonus is nice, the full adrenaline to double burst is really useful. Same with Signet of Stamina. In general the actives should be better (or unique) than the passives. But I do agree that an exception could be made for Healing Signet.

Would a better option be to just add regen to the active but maybe not reduce the cd?

I was thinking about this and it’s really tricky. As you stated, with the other signets, they have 2 clear uses. Unfortunately, in the case of your healing skill, you want it to heal, right?! So to add extra healing to the active makes the player spam it, and to have a stronger passive, influences the player to normally sit on it.

My suggestion, an unaltered Healing Signet needs to have an active with less than a 1:1 HPS ratio compared to the passive. So something like:

x = Healing Power

20sec CD
Passive: 225+.04x (.8 coefficient over 20 sec)
Active: 3600+.64x (20% reduction in the passive .8 coefficient = .64)

^That works out to be a 20% reduction in healing to activate. (Passive 4500 + .8 coefficient hp over 20 sec and 3600 + .64 coefficient when activated.) Let’s look at two examples:

0 Healing Power:
Passive 225 × 20 = 4500 over 20 sec
Active 3600 / 20 or 180 HPS
225 × .8 = 180. Check, 80% reduction

1000 Healing Power
Passive 265 × 20 = 5300 over 20 sec
Active = 4240 / 20 or 212 HPS
265 × .8 = 212. Check, 80% reduction

Next, they need to attach some utility to the activation. Although I’m tempted to suggest a defensive idea, I feel like that could cause some conflict. It could lead to, "Do I keep my higher healing to deal with getting whomped on? Or do I take a reduction in healing to gain the defensive boost? The skill, in a way, would be working against itself. I don’t really like that idea.

I think a better idea would be to give the active an offensive effect. Something like, “Cure weakness, your next 3 landed attacks have 100% crit chance and deal 5% more damage.” That would give people something to play around. Do I sit on the heal? Or can I pop it, sacrifice 20% of my healing and take this guy down before I get dpsed? Or maybe I’m not taking much damage so I take a risk losing my heal for 20 seconds so I can dish out a little more damage? Or even, this guy is about to take me down, I’m gunna pop my heal to buy myself a couple more seconds then hope my 3 crits and a small damage increase will allow me to down him or force him to go defensive.

I think that’s a lot more interesting than calculating which is stronger over time, active or passive, and sitting on or spamming the heal.

I realize there may be better ideas and different math.

These were just my thoughts.

I agree that I wish there was more utility to the active. Personally I was thinking either regen or protection for maybe half the duration of the shortest cd it can be. It would be nice to have access to protection, but that’s just wishful thinking.

“Cure weakness, your next 3 landed attacks have 100% crit chance and deal 5% more damage.”

Curing weakness would be a nice touch, especially with it’s supposed buff. Though Mending (or our burst in the new patch) sounds like the better deal there. And while I know you can please every build. This would help those that have a high single hit bursts but no so much other skills, and would be mostly useless for high prec builds. Blah, sorry to not like your idea and not really have a suggestion of my own.

Looking back at gw1 for some inspiration:
“Signet. You gain 82…154…172 Health. You have -40 armor while using this skill. " (-40 armor meant double damage. with a cast time of 2sec and 4sec cd)

I would not want something like that….so that’s not too helpful. For a more offensive feel, what about Quickness? To balance it….well yeah I got nothing. I was thinking throwing some bleeds on yourself, but with the new trait to remove conditions on bursts, it’d just be free quickness.

Wallace MacBix.2089:

I agree that I wish there was more utility to the active. Personally I was thinking either regen or protection for maybe half the duration of the shortest cd it can be. It would be nice to have access to protection, but that’s just wishful thinking.

“Cure weakness, your next 3 landed attacks have 100% crit chance and deal 5% more damage.”

Curing weakness would be a nice touch, especially with it’s supposed buff. Though Mending (or our burst in the new patch) sounds like the better deal there. And while I know you can please every build. This would help those that have a high single hit bursts but no so much other skills, and would be mostly useless for high prec builds. Blah, sorry to not like your idea and not really have a suggestion of my own.

Looking back at gw1 for some inspiration:
“Signet. You gain 82…154…172 Health. You have -40 armor while using this skill. " (-40 armor meant double damage. with a cast time of 2sec and 4sec cd)

I would not want something like that….so that’s not too helpful. For a more offensive feel, what about Quickness? To balance it….well yeah I got nothing. I was thinking throwing some bleeds on yourself, but with the new trait to remove conditions on bursts, it’d just be free quickness.

No apology necessary. I realized it wouldn’t work as well with glass cannons. That’s why I put the weakness removal and 5% damage increase. I did have it at 10%, but for most builds, even without any additional crit damage, you are already adding 50% damage to their next 3 successful attacks. Maybe 10% would be okay.

My big gripe against quickness is that it decreases the time your skills take by 50% which includes channeled skills. That results in 50% decreased range for any channeled movement skills: Sword 3, Axe f1, Shield 4, GS 5 for sure… dunno about 3, maybe Hammer f1, Bull’s Charge. That’s a pretty nasty list. I’m not sure if they fixed this or not.

Otherwise, ya, I could see that taking the place of the 5% damage and benefiting a better percentage of builds. I guess 2 or 3 seconds of quickness without a debuff would be okay. If the cooldown does get reduced to 15 seconds, it’s a little scary for people to be able to have ~15 – 25% up-time on quickness just from a heal though.

As far as a defensive attachment, I mentioned my feelings =) I think Protection would be the best candidate. You’d be giving up 20% healing for a chance to mitigate 33% damage. It would be a gamble but certainly interesting.