I would like the ele signet heals to go up again, it is so low now.
The only warriors I have a problem with are the ones the wear Soldiers with Healing Signet and some other crap to make them take no damage.
I have fought other warriors with healing signet and they are fine.
I remember GW1, running my Warrior, popping frenzy then going oh crap need to heal … dead. (2x damage for using frenzy, -40% armour for using healing signet is instant death).
No daecollo after huge complaints about the BM ranger we lost “gain quickness on pet swap” and recieved the kittentiest MANDATORY trait in the game “your pet gains quickness for 5 sec when you are down” We cant pick up anything in the BM line without first picking up this crap. Many ppl including me have abandoned the BM line completely. I have yet to see any other class have to take such an unneeded/useless trait for their class mechanic.
Try playing an Ele (arcane line).
Arcane Fury = fury for 2 seconds on swap (good)
Lingering Elements …. useless (and this is out 15 point one, it doesn’t actually do anything other then grant a small regen if you have 5 points in water as well)
Arcane Precision: Skills have a 10% chance to apply condition on critical hits (why? 25 points)
Instinctual Bond used to be good, gain quickness for 2-4? seconds on pet swap.
As to the worst mandatory trait in the game, That goes to Lingering Elements or Arcane Precision (they cost more and do nothing).
(edited by TGSlasher.1458)
Do you watch the SotGs and listen to what devs say about warriors and balance in general? What they’ve done so far is pretty much on par with what they announced as their goal, “Warriors should be able to stay in the pocket.” And, “We test for so long because we don’t like to give players things then take them away.” This isn’t a band-aid fix. This was their big step in the direction of sustain for a relatively pathetic class. A heal fix was in the patch notes pre-July but got pulled at the last second and commented on as needing further testing.
They also stated they were worried about giving too much healing, because no matter the spec the warrior has inherently strong offense. There is a very thin line above which they become juggernauts! I believe they are a little bit above that line right now.
The HPS relationships between each warrior heal are also very specific. There is only a 70 HPS gap between base Healing Surge, and Healing Signet, and Mending and Healing Surge, when accounting for multiple uses at min and max adrenaline levels, produce the same amount of healing to within less than one tenth of a percent. These changes were very well thought out. Any change to one will arguably necessitate a change to the others; otherwise you’ll have a bunch of warriors running around with Healing Surge being less susceptible to burst, able to heal around poison, and still sporting over 80% of the raw healing of the current Healing Signet.
Herein lies the problem. Warriors posses inherent defense vs. burst with their heavy armor and great utils in things like dolyak signet. The healing signet warrior can easily survive a large burst, and they keep healing PASSIVELY. If they have the same hps with healing surge, it isn’t a problem, because there is counter-play in interrupting it. The only way to counter the healing signet + adrenal health is poison. Only a few classes have access.
You are fighting a community of players that has spent the last 11 months learning how to compete with heals as low as 200 HPS… Is it really that surprising that many of us are exceptionally good at staying on our feet? Even if they change the heals up a little, it won’t be by much, and these players that are coming here not looking to improve their play will continue to get beat down by good warriors.
Not every warrior instantly became better than all of their opponents. If you were good before, you got a buff. If you weren’t as good before but now fights seem relatively easy, its not that the skill level instantly jumped. Everyone wants to get better, believe me, but there are some classes that literally CANNOT out-damage the healing here. Remember when ele had too much healing? It was OP and every ele thought they were amazing suddenly.
And the matchups are far from trivialized. I’ve yet to have any class in my guild complain over vent that the new warrior is beyond beatable; nor do our non-signet warriors struggle against signet warriors. If a non-signet warrior with zero access to poison can take down a signet warrior, so can any other class. It may require some build adjustments, but this is an RPG. That is the nature of the beast in this genre. Not even FPS’s are devoid of “the right tool for the job”. I don’t understand how you can claim things should be any different in GW2. If that was what the devs wanted, there wouldn’t be bunkers, roamers, assaulters and so on… not even mentioning these roles have a limited number of classes that fill them best and that “hard” counter builds exist or are created to keep the meta honest. This is very much Build Wars 2, and it is by design. They may not have marketed the game that way, but that is the reality of the product and it is reflected in their balancing decisions.
Warriors have access to high dps relative to a comparative build on any other class, so I am not surprised the match could go either way. However, as an ele, even building for dps you can’t match the passive healing. Warriors shouldn’t be a hard-counter for an entire class. Also, there are “hard counters” to extreme builds, but there shouldn’t be a hard counter to a relatively balanced class that can apply pressure in many different kinds of ways. It does keep condi-necros honest 1v1 that engies can take a trait for -100% condi duration below 25% health. Necros that can only condi are at a serious disadvantage and need to take a little power. Taking a variety in utilities/build should give you the tools to respond to any situation with a little bit of superior play to your opponent.
(edited by BlackBeard.2873)
Snipped for length
1)They also stated they were worried about giving too much healing…
2)Herein lies the problem. Warriors posses inherent defense vs. burst with their heavy armor and great utils in things like dolyak signet…
3)Not every warrior instantly became better than all of their opponents…
4)Warriors have access to high dps…
1)Right, if that is from the SotG that I’m remembering, it’s older than the “stay in the pocket” one. I hope they did enough testing that they won’t have to retract any buffs. I’ll probably have to stop coming to the forums if that happens, because they’ll be the inverse of what they are now. Anyway, arguing over what that number should be won’t do anyone any good because ultimately, it’s ANet’s call. I just hope they made the right one.
2)We do have strong burst counters as utilities and on shield, but those are on pretty lengthy cooldowns (referring more to EP here). I don’t want to get into the math of light vs medium vs heavy, but unless a warrior stacks toughness, he isn’t shrugging much of anything off, and that remains true with any class. Beyond that, there is still access to prot or other mitigation enhancing traits. Unfortunately for us, our only mitigation trait, period, is 30 deep in Defense. We can also get some healing with Def 15 or Tac 30 but that’s it, and the majority of us aren’t running Tac 30. Warriors that survive burst have to build that way. They are sacrificing CC, condi cleanse, utility… we aren’t innately beastly against burst. Our HP pool allows us to take it better than most classes, but that is by design because if a warrior isn’t running shield or EP, he doesn’t have 100% reliable, class specific burst avoidance, nor did we used to have sustain. We build to protect our heal. It isn’t an ability organic to the class. Those players that are running a stun break and EP have given up a lot to set themselves up for success while running the signet.
I don’t really agree with your counter-play argument. From what I’ve heard out of this thread, you guys find the warrior is too offensive and too defensive at the same time. That suggests to me you are running for your life most of the time. If you are focusing on when he’s going to heal, odds are he isn’t pressuring you… but he will be, this thread says so… I would just heal when you disengage. Anyone not out dpsing the current Healing Signet is either a bunker or eating so much damage they are spending more time running than attacking. Nerfing the heal won’t change that. The days of 200 HPS and battle of attrition against warriors are gone.
3)The warrior community was almost gone. Most of us who stayed were making a class work that was at a sizable disadvantage. I’ve compared it to training to run a 10 mile race but only having to run 5 miles. When I read the patch notes, I cringed at the though of how many fights I lost over the last 11 months that I would have won had we been given appropriate sustain from the beginning. As far as Eles, I never had a problem with their ability to heal. It was their mobility. They basically fought me thief style. RtL in, rotation, RtL out, heal, repeat until all my cooldowns were gone and my healing gave out. No properly played class should have their heals outpaced by an opponent that has withdrawn and returned over and over, but that was the state of the warrior, and that’s what I’m hearing from this thread, that players want to be able to run from a warrior without having to apply any kind of ranged pressure and still be able to out dps his healing by entering and exiting melee range at their leisure.
4)Again, untraited warrior damage, although better, isn’t tremendously higher than every other class against a non-CCed opponent, especially our ranged damage. We have weapons with strong coefficients and weapons with average coefficients, but our real damage comes from offensive traiting which is where all our +%‘s are buried, and that often precludes us from much investment in the defensive trees. Keep in mind each class has a slant towards support, dps or defense. Sure warriors have strong offensive trait options, but look at our defensive mitigation trait options compared to other classes… they are pretty much non-existent. ANet isn’t homogenizing anything. They’ve been quite clear that some classes/builds will excel in areas better than others.
Unfortunately, Ele is one of the classes I have no play time on. Having said that, I don’t believe that even a balanced Ele can’t surpass 528 DPS, and I’ve seen what a burst Ele can do… it’s far greater than 528, and if a bunker-anything can’t kill something 1v1, I don’t see an issue because he won’t be dying either unless by choice or uneven numbers.
(edited by Veritas.6071)
What the problem is is regen + stunlock + damage in stun.
I fought a mace/Hammer regen warrior….absolutely redunk on the stunlock.
Wouldn’t have been a problem if the regen wasn’t over the top as well.
No one is kittening about the insane lock down + damage…you can keep that. Tone down regen
What the problem is is regen + stunlock + damage in stun.
I fought a mace/Hammer regen warrior….absolutely redunk on the stunlock.
Wouldn’t have been a problem if the regen wasn’t over the top as well.
No one is kittening about the insane lock down + damage…you can keep that. Tone down regen
I will agree with that when they nerf other classes healing abilities. Until that stay away.
What the problem is is regen + stunlock + damage in stun.
I fought a mace/Hammer regen warrior….absolutely redunk on the stunlock.
Wouldn’t have been a problem if the regen wasn’t over the top as well.
No one is kittening about the insane lock down + damage…you can keep that. Tone down regen
I will agree with that when they nerf other classes healing abilities. Until that stay away.
You going to lose one.
Trust me when I say keep stun+damage.
Most of you guys make a mistake. You argue about heal signet based on other classes’ skills. This doesn’t work, this never worked in any game.
You simply can’t compare skill A1 with skill A2 if skills B1-Z1 and B2-Z2 aren’t equal. One class spams protection, the other spams blind etc. all increase the worth of hp, you can’t base an argument about their healing skill on that.
Most of you guys make a mistake. You argue about heal signet based on other classes’ skills. This doesn’t work, this never worked in any game.
You simply can’t compare skill A1 with skill A2 if skills B1-Z1 and B2-Z2 aren’t equal. One class spams protection, the other spams blind etc. all increase the worth of hp, you can’t base an argument about their healing skill on that.
This is a good point. It’s been pointed out many times that toughness and HP isn’t as good as having access to protection, evades, stealth, or even blinds. It be very hard to put a mathematical value on sustainability in this game because certain mechanics increase survival without having a number to put on it. Mesmer clones body blocking is another mechanic that helps with survival but how do you account for that when looking at numbers. Warriors lack many of those things listed above so it makes sense that the heals would be made stronger.
Just to nail this down again, if Warriors were horrendously OP as some have been claiming we would see more big TPvP teams actually using them but as we’ve seen in the recent tourney this isn’t the case. I think we have a place in TPvP but apparently not enough to give up that second Necro.
Most of you guys make a mistake. You argue about heal signet based on other classes’ skills. This doesn’t work, this never worked in any game.
You simply can’t compare skill A1 with skill A2 if skills B1-Z1 and B2-Z2 aren’t equal. One class spams protection, the other spams blind etc. all increase the worth of hp, you can’t base an argument about their healing skill on that.
People like to compare apples and oranges thinking they are equal.
I think this will get a nerf for sure, its all anyone talking about in duel servers. I just saw a war get turned downed from three duels because hes was using HS. You guys are still no phatasm mesmer but I think it would be silly to let this continue or believe this is acceptable. I have a war who is lvl 80 so I can admit this is over the top . If spirit ranger and Cond necro are getting nerf in the near future you can be sure as hell this will too. Sorry.
I think this will get a nerf for sure, its all anyone talking about in duel servers. I just saw a war get turned downed from three duels because hes was using HS. You guys are still no phatasm mesmer but I think it would be silly to let this continue or believe this is acceptable. I have a war who is lvl 80 so I can admit this is over the top . If spirit ranger and Cond necro are getting nerf in the near future you can be sure as hell this will too. Sorry.
So..nerf it back to 200hps? Yep good solution. I just wondering why noone complains about surge or mending paired with restorative streght trait (7 condi cleanse)
I think this will get a nerf for sure, its all anyone talking about in duel servers. I just saw a war get turned downed from three duels because hes was using HS. You guys are still no phatasm mesmer but I think it would be silly to let this continue or believe this is acceptable. I have a war who is lvl 80 so I can admit this is over the top . If spirit ranger and Cond necro are getting nerf in the near future you can be sure as hell this will too. Sorry.
So..nerf it back to 200hps? Yep good solution. I just wondering why noone complains about surge or mending paired with restorative streght trait (7 condi cleanse)
Because you need to cast those skills, no one casts signet of healing unless they abut to lose. For mending you need to create a gap and then cast it and even then it can get interrupted. Passive healing means you are always healing, always mitigating burst and conditions. Its ez mode. They dont need to take it to 200 but something like 280 with a better scaling with healing power would be a start. Some many ppls saying war has been underpoweored for a long time but its horese kitten. Ive lost to plenty of good mace stun wars long before this buff but now I lose to no skill wars who no not even need to move. You can complain and cry trying to hold onto this ez mode skill but there is a hoard of ppl doing the opposite and its obvious from what ppl are saying that it will not stay. The only class who can actually bring you guys down in a 1v1 situation anymore is a very skilled cond necro, very skilled cond spirit ranger, or your average run of the mill no skill duelist phantasm mes who kills everyone regardless.
I think this will get a nerf for sure, its all anyone talking about in duel servers. I just saw a war get turned downed from three duels because hes was using HS. You guys are still no phatasm mesmer but I think it would be silly to let this continue or believe this is acceptable. I have a war who is lvl 80 so I can admit this is over the top . If spirit ranger and Cond necro are getting nerf in the near future you can be sure as hell this will too. Sorry.
I’d actually prefer Spirit Rangers and Condi Necros not get nerfed because the longer they stay around the more appealing CC Warriors that counter them look to teams (hopefully).
I think this will get a nerf for sure, its all anyone talking about in duel servers. I just saw a war get turned downed from three duels because hes was using HS. You guys are still no phatasm mesmer but I think it would be silly to let this continue or believe this is acceptable. I have a war who is lvl 80 so I can admit this is over the top . If spirit ranger and Cond necro are getting nerf in the near future you can be sure as hell this will too. Sorry.
So..nerf it back to 200hps? Yep good solution. I just wondering why noone complains about surge or mending paired with restorative streght trait (7 condi cleanse)
Because you need to cast those skills, no one casts signet of healing unless they abut to lose. For mending you need to create a gap and then cast it and even then it can get interrupted. Passive healing means you are always healing, always mitigating burst and conditions. Its ez mode. They dont need to take it to 200 but something like 280 with a better scaling with healing power would be a start. Some many ppls saying war has been underpoweored for a long time but its horese kitten. Ive lost to plenty of good mace stun wars long before this buff but now I lose to no skill wars who no not even need to move. You can complain and cry trying to hold onto this ez mode skill but there is a hoard of ppl doing the opposite and its obvious from what ppl are saying that it will not stay. The only class who can actually bring you guys down in a 1v1 situation anymore is a very skilled cond necro, very skilled cond spirit ranger, or your average run of the mill no skill duelist phantasm mes who kills everyone regardless.
Actually any class can bring down war with healing signet on easy mode as u said.
On top of that u missed the fact that we don’t have features other classes do, just for example:
I cc a mes, swapping to gs, what mes does? Blink away with staff on 8cd.
I will trade healing signet for that anytime and im sure that im not alone. I just descripted a true easy mode: gtfo on demand.
yes mes is easy mode not arguing that but face tanking anything coming your way as full melee with a scary kitten 3.75 sec stun and using whirl wind and charge to avoid run away as your health fills back up has taken away much of the SKILL needed to play the warrior class.
1)They dont need to take it to 200 but something like 280 with a better scaling with healing power would be a start.
2)Some many ppls saying war has been underpoweored for a long time but its horese kitten. Ive lost to plenty of good mace stun wars long before this buff but now I lose to no skill wars who no not even need to move.
3)The only class who can actually bring you guys down in a 1v1 situation anymore is a very skilled cond necro, very skilled cond spirit ranger, or your average run of the mill no skill duelist phantasm mes who kills everyone regardless.
1) This statement makes it clear you aren’t aware of HPS values. Mending’s max base HPS is 262. Do you think anyone is going to take signet if it only does 20 more HPS than Mending and removes no condis or heals 100 HPS worse than Healing Surge? Intra-warrior heal balance is irrelevant to this conversation, but what isn’t irrelevant is that you haven’t learned enough about the class to make suggestions containing anything more than arbitrary numbers pulled out of thin air. You appear to main a ranger. When I was running the old signet at a whopping 200 HPS, and you rangers were running around with Troll Ungent at 342 HPS (only 50 HPS behind the new signet) with access to regen and prot, you didn’t see me on the ranger forums crying. And look at those numbers… 342 HPS. You still have access to one of the strongest heals in the game. Plus prot, regen, on demand poison removal 0.o, or more healing if you want it (I know you can’t get all of those easily, but any one of them goes a long way to increasing survivability).
2) Just because you lost to a warrior before doesn’t mean they were not UP. It just means you lost, and based on the criteria you used for estabilshing what is UP, if you win or lose, I hardly believe you can adequately evaluate opponent skill.
3) 1v1, I’ve seen a D/D thief bring down a signet user, a Mace/Shield Hammer warrior, a GS mesmer, Axe/Shield Bow warrior, Staff necro… the list could go on and on. Your statement is pure untruth. Sure, it’s difficult, but so is killing any other strong build, especially if it’s in skilled hands.
(edited by Veritas.6071)
People need to realize that for a very long time, the warrior has gotten the short end of the stick. A primarily melee class with no sustain, no protection, lack of damage avoidance who would get CC’ed pretty easily if they came close. When it came down to being a Warrior, you needed everything and it wasn’t easy to build for.
You needed to spec into all defensive utilities, you needed alot of toughness, need stunbreaks/stability, condition removal. That is just to set yourself up to do damage and not get kited and die. Then we needed some ways to get sustain so we had to resort to gimmick kitten like trying to get protection or healing from runes (can’t have both) or just spec 30 into tactics for slightly more sustain.
Once you have all this, you had to find a way to do damage, because just being a meat shield isn’t going to do you any good because a meat shield (especially a warrior) is going to die eventually. And this was difficult.
Playing a warrior back then was like playing on handicap mode. Warriors have learned how valuable each and every dodge is and how to keep the pressure on whenever possible. As a result, many of the already good warriors have gotten boosted to the point where it seems like they are OP. People just need to adjust and get out of the pervasive mindset that warriors are easy kills, and actually adapt and come up with different builds. I am glad classes actually have to adapt to warriors and actually consider them a threat, rather than warriors having to come up with builds that needs to take into account everything that every class brings to the table.
People must realize that in a battle of attrition, a warrior with a healing signet may be difficult to beat. It is somewhat a soft counter to builds who use conditions that kill you over time (although poison does counter Healing Signet hard, even for a few seconds). If Thieves can consistently burst a warrior for 2,3,4K hits, they will go down pretty easily. Burst is a huge counter to healing signet, which is why half of the people opt for Healing Surge because the HPS is decent and gives you an amazing burst heal.
Next thing you know people are going to be complaining about Confusion Warriors with Perplexity Runes ..... lul.
In a 1v1, Condi necros, Minion Necros, D/D Thieves, S/D Thieves, All types of Mesmers, Condi Engis, Spirit Rangers. That is 5 classes who have builds that can easily take down a warrior if played right. Hey maybe I should complain because those classes have beat me.
I don’t mind if it get nerfed but DON’T touch Healing Surge. Let us at least have 1 viable healing skill.
Next thing you know people are going to be complaining about Confusion Warriors with Perplexity Runes ….. lul.
Actually i saw somewhere on gw2 discussion a mesmer complaining about warrior doing load of confusion stacks on intterrupt.. ahaha
In a 1v1, Condi necros, Minion Necros, D/D Thieves, S/D Thieves, All types of Mesmers, Condi Engis, Spirit Rangers. That is 5 classes who have builds that can easily take down a warrior if played right. Hey maybe I should complain because those classes have beat me.
You cannot make general assertions like this. It really depends on the builds.
The famous M+Sh/GS warriors counters Necros and Spirit Rangers perfectly. You will resist the first condi spam with berserker stance, build adrenaline, pop signet of rage and then chain Skullcrack > 100b > Whirl > Full adrenaline again. They have close to no stunbreaks and bad mobility, so they will just eat your combo every 7s.
On the other hand, any ranged DPS with high mobility and a good number of evades will beat them, like Engies or Pistol thieves.
People are just whining because there is actually a Warrior build that owns the actual meta (necro spam, spirit spam, no mesmer).
Whine or not bottom line is your in for rude awakening if you truly think this going to stay the way it is. In the end we all know mending should be the better heal regardless because hellooo cond removal.
yes you named a bunch of strong condition class and super glass burst. I am a power ranger, its simply impossible for me to burst you down, ranger power is very neglected because half our attack is going to our pet who also doesnt really dmg you anyways.
yes you named a bunch of strong condition class and super glass burst. I am a power ranger, its simply impossible for me to burst you down, ranger power is very neglected because half our attack is going to our pet who also doesnt really dmg you anyways.
That sounds like a problem with your class and not the build in question.
yes you named a bunch of strong condition class and super glass burst. I am a power ranger, its simply impossible for me to burst you down, ranger power is very neglected because half our attack is going to our pet who also doesnt really dmg you anyways.
That sounds like a problem with your class and not the build in question.
And it isn’t even entirely true.
Whine or not bottom line is your in for rude awakening if you truly think this going to stay the way it is. In the end we all know mending should be the better heal regardless because hellooo cond removal.
Mending should only be the better heal if you have few or no condition removals in a meta that is not condition based.
In a condition heavy meta, you need a lot more than that. M+Sh/GS builds use two utilities (Berserker Stance, Endurance Signet) AND a Master Trait (Cleansing Ire) AND Hoelbrak Runes (-20% condition duration) specifically to handle conditions.
When they give Warrior’s Perma-Protection built right into our weapons and easy ways to get it, better traits that heal you when you gain a strike of adrenaline or traits that just heal you passively. Blocks and Evades built straight into our weapon skills and Conditions like chill and immobilize and other CC based conditions…
Having 1s blocks built into our hammer attacks and getting evades when we burst, while having good CC and protection built into our attacks…
I will gladly give you the benefit of the doubt, however right now everything we have to ranger is pretty much sub-par, we also don’t have much crowd control without putting everything into it, or using skull crack + sigil of needs nerfed.
You cant “facetank” with a warrior because he is no bunker, he cant mitigate burst damage(no protection no bunker), if a warrior is “facetanking you” then you SUCK plain and simple, you are a bunker with terrible damage who spect to nuke another kind of “regenbuker” doing 5 damage per second.
yes you named a bunch of strong condition class and super glass burst. I am a power ranger, its simply impossible for me to burst you down, ranger power is very neglected because half our attack is going to our pet who also doesnt really dmg you anyways.
and there lies your problem, and what 50% of the GW2 doesn’t seem to understand.
Hey I want to go Sword/Shield/Longbow Power build, but how come I am getting owned by Mesmer? Mesmer’s are OP and they should be toned down.
I guess my point is that not every build is going to be good against every other build. One build may own against another but get completed wrecked by another. That doesn’t mean the build that you got completely wrecked by is necessarily OP. It is just simply rock, paper, scissors.
Another point is that not all builds are created equal. Don’t accuse a build of being overpowered when maybe the build you are trying so hard to make work is underpowered. Hey, I want to make a sword/shield/longbow power build to work but guess what I realize it isn’t as good as other warrior builds, get over it, and use a different build.
In your case, maybe its the power ranger build that is in need of a buff. So please, just stop.
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