Guild Wars 2

I’m running a variant of Defektive’s Avalanche build (built it from scratch, but I’m saying this so you’re familiar with my setup at least).

Now, I’m having trouble with glass cannon, heartseeker spamming thieves. They blow me up.

Backstab does a healthy 40% of my health, and the heartseekers then start. I’ve tried dodging, but the amount of heartseekers that get through will easily murder me. Running doesn’t work at all. Attempting a CC on them ends in a dodge festival if the guy (or gal) is any good.

The only time I can beat these guys is if they’re either bad, or I have some adrenaline handy and earthshaker behind me when I think they’ll pop up. And even then I have to anticipate a stun break and a dodge, having to time my mace 5 just right (not sure if standard HS spam build has a stunbreak, but the guys I fight sometimes do).

So the question is, how do I deal with them? I can only think of fear me, but is there another way? Or is the build simply countered by the HS spam build?

p.s: Respect to the thieves who don’t run this build, you have proven yourselves to be above 2-spamming and I applaud you.

I can’t say much for those kind of thieves (I run a much sturdier build that relies on stealth, blinds and swordplay), but something that completely messes up a backstab + 2-spam thief is for the first attack to miss. So, if you can, keep an extra-hard eye on approaching thieves. They usually start with a cast for Cloak and Dagger, and it’s a little hard to catch the animation. As soon as you see any sign of movement on the thief’s part that isn’t walking/running, dodge or use displacement skills. If you’re lucky, a Bull Charge might wreck his plans before the fight has even started. If he hits a stealth at any point, move erratically and/or attack where you predict they will be. Even in stealth, they can be hit, and they WILL back off when that happens. Since he will try and position himself around you, just try autoattacking around you. You might look stupid, but it works. Make the thief’s job of stabbing you in the back much more difficult with your movement, and I’m not sure what the skill is, but it’s like an axe AoE spin that does INSANE damage. Yeah, as soon as the thief hits stealth and gets close, rush it right through. I’ve seen that skill alone almost one shot a glass cannon thief. Also, at the stage where he begins spamming heartseeker, save all your CC skills until that point. If he lands the backstab and thinks he’s already won, he’ll most likely relax his playing style when using the heartseeker strikes. At that point, Backbreaker means he’s as good as dead, on the spot, right there. As soon as you hit any form of CC that stops him in his tracks, hit Frenzy and DPS him to oblivion before he can break out (he will undoubtedly have some of counter, but at the 2-spam stage, he might not even be paying much attention).

Quite simply, just remember that even in stealth, he can still be hit. Predict the movement, prevent him from getting that first hit in, and choose your CC moments wisely. Heck, you could wait until he’s mid-spam before hitting the axe spin and tearing him to shreds on the spot.

My main is an 80 warrior that also uses defektive’s build (everything the same except I use bull’s rush instead of fear me) but I also alt a thief in spvp

The fact that you are getting hit by backstab is probably the problem. As soon as the thief goes invis you need to run away for 2-3 seconds then dodge, or use aoe knockback. Many thieves use shadow refuge to set up backstab, if they stay in the small circle they cast they can stay invis for as long as 10 seconds, but they will come un-invis in ~2 seconds if they step out, so if you see the thief go invis with the house symbol above his head, step out of that circle asap. Many other thieves will immobilize you first, so when you see a thief you should have your finger ready on shake it off.

And as you probably know heartseeker does more damage the lower hp you are, getting particularly dangerous 50% and below, so keep yourself healed with shouts and with adrenaline surge when you have full adrenaline, and CC the kitten out of the thief. When I get bull’s rush → knockback → earthshaker → hammer 5 → mace 5 the thief is usually almost dead or running away very quickly, and even if 1 or 2 cc misses or they stunbreak you still have good control. Maybe if you post your build we could see if there are any weak spots in it (for example, do you use spiked armor?)

I usually just keep swinging until I can land a hit while moving backwards or in a circle motion. If you observe them closely…usually when they land is when they’re vulnerable and that’s when you strike with either a stun attack or some other utility you like to use. Nevertheless they are a troublesome opponent if you cannot see them.

I’m maining on my 80 Thief and working on a Backstab crit build I’ve customized for myself, so I hope I can give a little insight. HS spamming for one just shows they’re fairly awful, so use some defensive cd’s, CC’s, or like mentioned, just dodge away when you see it coming. Heartseeker spam will run them out of initiative pretty fast, and then it’s your turn to destroy them.

Another thing to keep in mind, is if they’re sword/pistol or dagger/dagger like this is about, they’re more than likely full zerker geared, meaning they have base HP, so if they’re gonna front load on you, dodge out, wait a sec, dodge again while they mindlessly spam HS till they’re empty, then just charge back in and front load on them with cd’s also. I’m currently just built around backstab burst, but built in some vitality pieces, and I can burst and actually sustain dps on target also, but most aren’t and are running at base HP or neat to it, which is only like 10,800.

In closing, CC is a pretty big bane of Thieves except for a select few survival/defensive builds, most burst thieves are front loaded to burst and hope for that kill. Find a way to throw a block, dodge, CC, or use some cooldowns, then put em on the ground for good.

Edit Oh, and don’t be a 3 button wonder warrior with Bull’s Rush, Frenzy, Hundred Blades.

I don’t have any issues with those thieves.

The thieves which I find problematic are dodge, drop caltrops, ping me with shortbow constantly, so i’m pretty much perma snared and even if I remove the condition i get resnared straightaway by infinite caltrops. (but that’s the choice I make, if i used rifle i’m sure they would be easier). But those thieves need space to operate and are really only any good 1v1. Best way I’ve found to handle them is don’t chase, just run and if they follow you pan back, wait for the moment to catch them in a rush+frenzy+hb. Only way to really have a chance.

I run GS/sword+shield btw. With 27k hps. Adrenal health regen and mending signet.

For heartseeker spammers as soon as you see that blur of damage and your health dissapearing you have to be quick enough to hit shield block or endure pain and dodge out of there/sword leap out of their range. I will then switch back to greatsword, then GS3 through them for more damage and evade (because you will not be able to target them still) and further HS spam, then hopefully they have low initiative and can be targetted, then do a great sword throw to root them (traited leg specialist), and then bullrush/frenzy them down. Remember their haste is 4 seconds, they will try and spam as much as they can in that time period so do not let them hit you for that duration.

If they are specced for backstab etc they will be quite fragile, so the bullrush combo usually finishes them.

It’s funny seeing a thief say ’don’t be the bullrush frenzy hb guy!’ Really? When a thief can put out (like 3 were doing constantly last night) 11k backstabs, followed by 5k steals and then a 5k c+d on me in the space of a few seconds whilst maintaining near invisibility and being untargettable the entire time… Why wouldn’t i want to burst you down asap?

The lower my health gets, the stronger your heartseeker gets. The longer a fight goes on the better it is for a thief as he can regen initiative very quickly for more spam.

My root on GS4 is the key to this whole thing, it completely disrupts heartseeker spammers. Also the ability to sword leap out of harms way. My leap is further than their heartseeker leap. I tried subbing in axe for sword last night, but i didn’t do half as well against thieves. You need that escape mechanism to avoid the initial firestorm of damage.

Also…if he decided to whirlwind steal do not attack him, he will be unhittable the entire time. Just run away. This is because a thief will spam dodge during the move. Since most can dodge 4-5 times in a row, they will be unhittable the whole time doing damage.

best way to know if u hit a thief in stealth is use your 1 skill on any weapon, if the skill hits your 2nd ability would be activated. Doesn’t work on ranged abilities but oh well at least something we can do on melee about it. Spinning axes is the best when they go into stealth.

@ Phaeris

That’s one thing I don’t like about when thieves use that whirlwind steal. They are immune to everything which I find completely unfair. I believe they should be vulnerable to hit while they’re doing that move or otherwise give that ability to warriors as well who uses offhand axe. I hope Anet can rethink about that whirlwind ability thieves can steal and remove the immune to everything mechanic.

Yeah, it’s pretty lame. They ALL do it..without fail nowadays, very frustrating.

Warriors can do it actually on axe 5. You just press dodge twice. Which is what thieves are doing during that movement.

BUT…big difference is where as a warrior can only dodge twice maximum in a row, due to thief traits they can dodge almost constantly, so because they can do this during the move it appear sthey have complete invulnerability, but the move will still do damage.

They basically just need to make whirlwind stop when you dodge, like every other single move out there….

@phaeris: Whirlwind is a dodge…why would you dodge during it?

Anyway, my only issue with backstab is that it’s not a ‘back’ stab…it should be called ‘facestab’

I’ve literally immobilized thieves and had them stealth up and ‘backstab’ me for full bonus damage…in the face… They come out of stealth still immobilized and then start with the HS spam.

Can we get a bug fix for that? … Or just change backstab to do the same damage wherever (since it basically does already) and nerf it.

Oh and kitten fix “Throw Bolas” saying that its 900m…because it’s barely even 600m

Axe 5. I meant whirling axe

Not GS 3.

Throw bolas is horrible. Just such a broken skill. If the person walks slightly sideways or up a slope it just sails past them.

Thanks for the replies!

For those of you who didn’t get it, I’m a hammer and axe/mace warrior. Soldier amulet. 25.5k health and 3100-ish defense (armor + toughness). I don’t have healing shouts, as I’m specced more like Defektive’s dps variant.

Current utilities are Bull’s Charge (need a non-adrenaline gap closer, and the cc is nice), Balanced Stance and Signet of Stamina.

I guess I could switch out Signet of Stamina (the extra dodge regen is nice, but the active effect cancelling it is really meh imo, I’d have to switch to mending for condition removal as well instead of healing surge). Would it be better to go for “Fear Me!”, Endure Pain, or stick to Signet of Stamina? (when it comes to thieves ofc)

HS spam is the sign of a bad player, but not always. I’ve stated that I can CC them to death if they’re bad. I’m talking about good thieves that happen to run this build, the ones that see my hammer swing and dodge a year before it it lands. The only thing that manages to catch these guys is, like I said, my offhand mace stun at point blank (or timed after dodge) and an Earthshaker behind me when they stealth.

The autoattack tip is solid, I usually only use it if the thief puts down that stealth field of his, but I guess that using it for the normal stealth would work too.

Also, running away from the stealth is…. lame… Don’t get me wrong! It works and I’m going to try and incorporate it, but it seems so cowardly.

Is there anything else I can do within the limits of this build? I like it too much to want to switch it for just one ridiculous spec.

@Nergrom
I saw this post at work on my phone and wanted to reply earlier but I was stuck in meetings most of the day. So I apologize for the late response.

Beating thieves that attack in melee range is much easier than killing shortbow / teleport’s. Your best chance of success are five. specific things.

1) Hammer F1 – After they stealth, wait 1.5/2 seconds, then use the F1 directly on your character. 90% of the time if they are going to attack you they will get hit. Not only will it stun them, but they’ll come out of stealth stunned.

2) Apply Slows/Immobolize as often as possible – HS range is severely depleted when slowed, simply slow and dodge away. They won’t be able to catch up to you and if they spam HS to try to catch you then their init goes to waste and that’s X many less HS you have to worry about.

3) Hammer #4 – The attack doesn’t hit as soon as the cast is done, it hits as your character turns. I’ve found that even if they are HS spamming right on top of me, as they jump around they are going to get hit by the swing as it spins. Just follow up with stuns and if they are a burst build they’ll die in the combo.

4) Spam attack thin air – Killed way to many thieves just auto attacking thin air in the general direction I assume they can be.

5) Put your back to a wall – This diminishes the surface area they are going to attack you from. It also protects you from backstab.

Overall: It’s really a timing thing. Once you get the timing of HS down you’ll be able to land more and more stuns/immobolizers.

I hope this information was helpful to you!

Thieves are NOT invul while doing Whirling Axe stolen from a warrior. Not sure what makes you believe that, but we most definitely are not. When we’re doing Dagger Storm (ballerina throwing blue daggers), we ARE immune to ranged, and reflect ranged attacks, but we are still 100% vulnerable to melee attacks. If a thief is using Dagger Storm, just hop on over to him and put him down in melee. As a thief, I should probably not be telling you that incase you didn’t already know, but there are PLENTY of ways to deal with thieves. As I stated earlier, blocks, dodges, any defensive cooldowns or just the abundance of CC that warriors have access to, can easily counter thieves.

Don’t be a glass cannon 100b warrior…Honestly I very rarely lose to a thief on my axe/shield warrior, Utilities generally run Invuln (stance)/Frenzy (stance) and 3rd varies on situation but generally Either My mark (shout-invuln) or Shake it off (shout- Anti CC)

’Don’t be a glass cannon 100b warrior’

OP stated couple times he doesn’t use GS. I suppose some people can’t be bothered to read anything other than the title.

IMO you should focus on learning how to avoid the opener backstab combo, as this is what eats a huge chunk of your health and allows HS spam to be effective.

Most thieves will use either devourer or basilisk venom (or both) to ensure the backstab. You should read it as a giant warning sign ‘HEY, IMA OPEN ON YOU NAO, ALRIGHT?’.
Opener combo is: 1. precasted Cloak and Dagger → 2. Steal → 3. CnD+Steal hit, stealthing the Thief, immobilizing you → 4. Assassin Signet → 5. Backstab
You only need to stop him at step 3 to make whole opener wasted, leaving half his utilities on cooldown. Easiest way to do it is to use Shield 5. It can also be done with well-timed dodge, but requires quite a bit of practice and reading your opponent’s movements, predicting the Steal shadowstep. Last option is to use Endure Pain and eat the whole combo.

As for countering HS spam – anything that affects movement will also work with leap finishers. Immobilize, cripple, chill (like sigil of hydromancy on weapon swap) will leave them jumping up and down in one place, wasting initiative and giving you 2-3 seconds to plan how to best hammer them into the ground.

Actually they are immune during the stolen whirling axe. The reason they are immune is they can dodge multiple times, more than just the 2 due to traits. The spin keeps going and doing damage and because they’re dodging they won’t take damage.

So for all intensive purposes they ARE invulnerable. Maybe you had no idea about this Calysto, or you just don’t want to bring this fact to everyone’s attention so it receives the nerf it should do (not even a nerf, if you dodge it should cancel a move.)

Hop on over to a thief whilst they have dagger storm up? Oh my. They can move and the dagger snares you and damages. So you walk crippled trying to chase them and end up taking more damage and bleeding and even IF you clear the snare (not the bleed) you will be resnared….

There is not really a technique to avoid taking a 5k C+D, followed by an insta steal for 5k followed by an instant back stab for a minumum of 10k. That’s pressing 3 buttons (oh and the sigil for the backstab). So the word easily should never come into it if you’re playing against any thief who isn’t absolutely awful.

As HArrier said, you will most likely eat the steal and c+d, it’s at this point you have to throw up shield or endure pain. Dodging can be hard, because of the basilisk venom, it’s a last resort if shield 5 or endure pain is down.

What’s better, to run away whilst they burn whirlwind and daggerstorm? or sit there taking 10k more damage and not being able to hit back. This is why you’re losing. Judge when to attack and when not to attack. Same applies to fighting every class. Warriors arn’t rambo, that’s guardians.

We’re more hit and run currently.

@phaeris What I meant was dodging at the exact moment CnD+Steal would hit, causing both of them to miss and making Basilisk go to waste (as it only lasts for 1 attack, whether it hits or not).

I realize it’s not easy, but it’s certainly doable.

Also, yes, avoiding Whirling Axe and Dagger Storm is important. In any other situation running away and showing your back to Thief is a suicide though, unless you use movement ability to run away (GS 3 or 5, Sword 2, Bull’s Charge). Turning around and running away only makes repeated CnD+Backstabs much easier.

Thanks again for all the replies, tried a few of the suggestions and I’m getting results.

A thing I tried out for giggles, which turned out to be pretty kitten effective, was to get the trait for immobilize on cripple and simply throw my axe at the thief. They look stupid, and I get breathing room (a trait I can easily swap out of when I need to fight something else).

Once again, thanks for the feedback

p.s: @MistyMountains: Can’t tell if trolling, or just bad reading comprehension

phaeris.7604:

Actually they are immune during the stolen whirling axe. The reason they are immune is they can dodge multiple times, more than just the 2 due to traits. The spin keeps going and doing damage and because they’re dodging they won’t take damage.

So for all intensive purposes they ARE invulnerable. Maybe you had no idea about this Calysto, or you just don’t want to bring this fact to everyone’s attention so it receives the nerf it should do (not even a nerf, if you dodge it should cancel a move.)

Hop on over to a thief whilst they have dagger storm up? Oh my. They can move and the dagger snares you and damages. So you walk crippled trying to chase them and end up taking more damage and bleeding and even IF you clear the snare (not the bleed) you will be resnared….

There is not really a technique to avoid taking a 5k C+D, followed by an insta steal for 5k followed by an instant back stab for a minumum of 10k. That’s pressing 3 buttons (oh and the sigil for the backstab). So the word easily should never come into it if you’re playing against any thief who isn’t absolutely awful.

As HArrier said, you will most likely eat the steal and c+d, it’s at this point you have to throw up shield or endure pain. Dodging can be hard, because of the basilisk venom, it’s a last resort if shield 5 or endure pain is down.

What’s better, to run away whilst they burn whirlwind and daggerstorm? or sit there taking 10k more damage and not being able to hit back. This is why you’re losing. Judge when to attack and when not to attack. Same applies to fighting every class. Warriors arn’t rambo, that’s guardians.

We’re more hit and run currently.

I actually think they cant be hit or have high evade chance. I know i have hit them in melee when they do daggerstorm. However, yesterday a thief stole from me, I then proceeded to do whirlwind next to him doing whirlwind and at least it did not look like he tried to evade, but he evaded my whole whirlwind while I ate the damage. I also thought it was invul only against ranged attacks but at least the “stolen” whirlwind made me miss all my melee attacks. I have to check more accurately on my thief how that skill actually works.

@aleiro Let me clarify During Dagger Storm they DO take damage from meele attacks. However for the whole duration they get stability boon (can’t be stunned etc.), plus reflect all ranged attacks (including the GS 4, Bolas etc. as they count as projectiles).

As for Whirling Axe (Warrior steal skill), they gain evade for the whole duration, just like during Pistol Whip, there’s no need to dodge, unless it’s for gap closing. It’s pretty much a portable, 360 degree Pistol Whip.

Harrier.9380:

@aleiro Let me clarify During Dagger Storm they DO take damage from meele attacks. However for the whole duration they get stability boon (can’t be stunned etc.), plus reflect all ranged attacks (including the GS 4, Bolas etc. as they count as projectiles).

As for Whirling Axe (Warrior steal skill), they gain evade for the whole duration, just like during Pistol Whip, there’s no need to dodge, unless it’s for gap closing. It’s pretty much a portable, 360 degree Pistol Whip.

I still don’t understand how a Mimic skill is better than the original. (Whirling Axe for warrior doesn’t evade, it just does damage and very little at that.)

Defektive.7283:

I still don’t understand how a Mimic skill is better than the original. (Whirling Axe for warrior doesn’t evade, it just does damage and very little at that.)

Dmg seems okayish (at least with burst builds I tend to use on Warrior), but still doesn’t justify picking axe offhand over shield or mace.

Tbh most of Thief Steal skills are quite powerful. 4s daze from Guardian, 6s chill from Elementalist or the tree from Ranger are also quite good. I guess very long cooldown (~40s) justifies it a bit, but gotta agree, the portable 100b Thief can steal from Warrior is way too powerful.

Whirling Axe does less damage than Axe #1 attack unless you’re hitting greater than 4 (real world, 5-6) people at a time.

It’s damage is bad for an attack with a cooldown.

Unless you bubble there isn’t a Lot that can be done to stop HS really.

This guy was no where near glass cannon.

Now there are lots of things he could of done, the issue is that he went down to 4 HS’s faster than he could react.

Ok, guess you CAN roll while using stolen whirling axe. Then yes, I do 100% agree that that needs nerfed/fixed to where if you dodge roll, it stops. That’s how it works with Dagger Storm, and that’s how it should work with Whirling Axe when stolen. Don’t take from this that I’m trying to keep thieves from getting nerfed, because I’m not. And as for going into melee on dagger storm, I still think it’s your most valid thing to do, unless you started off already out of it’s massive range. A simple charge in and drop your cooldowns or whatever you have to do to put em down fast, or if you are out of range, then fine, keep away from them.

Defektive.7283:

Whirling Axe does less damage than Axe #1 attack unless you’re hitting greater than 4 (real world, 5-6) people at a time.

It’s damage is bad for an attack with a cooldown.

How about when you’re in a combo field?

I understand thieves can be and mostly are squishy in combat that’s why they have burst damage. However that should not make them evade everything when they steal warriors whirlwind ability. If the warrior whirlwind can be counter then so should their whirlwind ability.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Defektive.7283:

Whirling Axe does less damage than Axe #1 attack unless you’re hitting greater than 4 (real world, 5-6) people at a time.

It’s damage is bad for an attack with a cooldown.

How about when you’re in a combo field?

Never tested w/ a combo field, but the combo field needs to force twice the dmg output in order for it to break even with Axe1 DPS. But then there’s an issue of building an attack around a field.

The whirl ability triggers 1 upon ability activation just like all the other while abilities – See Guardian GS stuff. Just triggers the once.

It does not keep triggering.

Defektive.7283:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Defektive.7283:

Whirling Axe does less damage than Axe #1 attack unless you’re hitting greater than 4 (real world, 5-6) people at a time.

It’s damage is bad for an attack with a cooldown.

How about when you’re in a combo field?

Never tested w/ a combo field, but the combo field needs to force twice the dmg output in order for it to break even with Axe1 DPS. But then there’s an issue of building an attack around a field.

My thought is that it’s a team game first and foremost, so you have the utility option a combo field brings. What I’m unsure about is how much the combo field actually increases damage by with random projectiles firing from the whirl, even in a team situation. However, if you create several stacks of confusion, or keep blindness up, it seems like it could be very useful.

It just feels like a long whirl has its uses beyond damage that I’d like to see explored.

As a warrior I’d suggest that you try this build:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Anfuhrer-s-warrior-guide-to-maximized-spanking/first#post476821

let the thief bring you down at 25% then pop endure pain + heal + elite skill(with lyssa 6 set all boons)

By the time endure pain has expired you will have almost a full hp bar and the thief will have excausted their spamming. Aditionally, the thief would have gone through 8 seconds of your retaliation.

Thieves are by far the easiest class to beat on my Warrior.
Endure pain + Defy pain + Balanced stance + 3000 armor + Mending > all Thief builds.
They need at least a 45s span to plow through all this, and they go down in a sneeze.
The funniest counter is Volley right before they stealth; if you didn’t know, channeled skills keep hitting/homing to stealthed chars.

Perhaps this is also because I have a Thief so I know all their mechanics.
They are very sensible to CC and conditions, most will be able to trinket one CC/root then the following CC/root will hit – some will try Dagger Storm which makes them into a free kill.