Guild Wars 2

Just to be clear. I dance around things for a living.

Ew… Well I’ll try not to let that dissuade me from remaining civil.

Defektive

While yes Warriors compared to some classes like Mesmers or Guardians have a handicap, I’m more concerned with how much of an over reaction people are having to it. I see us as 10% less effective in certain areas (like damage compared to survivability). But I firmly believe we make up for it in control utility.

Enh….. I dunno man. Hammer has control yes, mace 5 as well. You could have more if you picked up bola/kick/stomp/fear but can’t have all of those and really stability is practically required for every class/build for warriors that expects to get any melee uptime in a group fight. Yes I said kick, I’ve tried to run it, I like the animation (very chuck) but really….. meh. Stomp’s CD is too long too.

Still I do actually agree that it’s not so much a damage/survivability thing as a generic and bland skillset with very little in regards to overall synergy and group utility.

Again with the shield comparison (it’s the easiest to bring up).
Shield 4 is a short rush with a daze, cd is ok once traited… ish. Shield 5 only works as a delay, unless you trait missle deflection. CD is far too long even when traited.

Guardian 4 creates a shielding wave in front of you that damages foes and gives protection to yourself and up to five allies. So protection, damage and group utility.

Guard shield5 creats a dome around you that pushes foes back and absorbs projectiles. Detonate the dome to heal nearby allies. So area control/knockback/interrupt, inherent missle deflection, and a group heal.

Vanilla vs flavored.

Then there’s a few weapon isses. 1h sword for instance. Cripple from 3 should be tied to 2 and some kind of other attack should be put in 3’s place (perhaps with an evade attached or something like ranger/thief). Self root on hammer 3 and 4 is silly and doesn’t need to be there.

Hundred blades should be the burst ability and GS should get another 2 attack.

Etc. Just QoL and functionality fixes.

*Apparently my posts are getting deleted for being too short. So expect walls of text from now on. XD

Braxxus.2904:

Ew… Well I’ll try not to let that dissuade me from remaining civil.

Perhaps I don’t know you well enough to recognize your light-heartedness on his light-heartedness, but civility hasn’t exactly been your modus operandi since your initial post in this thread. The only impression I’ve gotten out of your content is an aggressive attempt at convincing others that Warriors aren’t good enough for tPvP, instead of trying to brainstorm innovative ways to fit them into a comp.

Also, I think comparing the same weapon across classes is sort of missing the point. So the Guardian shield abilities buff allies and have some extra utility. Shield of Judgement is also on a base 30 second cooldown, while Shield of Absorption is on a base 40 second cooldown. How much damage reduction does a teammate get from a well-timed stun from Shield Bash? Sure, giving your entire team Protection in an AoE clufu could math out to be more, but at that point you’re putting your team into a position where Guardian utility benefits more, and trying to shoehorn Warrior into the same role because it has the same weapon is simply unfair to the class.

The bummer about this whole conversation is that it’s going precisely nowhere. It’s like a political debate in that two sides are stating their opinions, but neither is ever considering the others. I think ruling Warriors out at this point, before competitive tournaments can even form, is completely silly. I refuse to take a stance that says “Warriors are just inferior”, but perhaps that’s because I don’t limit myself to sPvP. However, Braxxus, you refuse to even consider for a second that you, or other warriors, are simply not utilizing yourselves or not being utilized by your groups in a manner that really plays on a Warrior’s class strengths.

Everyone thinks they have the entire game figured out already it seems (at least on these forums), and that, to me, is a major disappointment in this community.

But I digress. All it really takes is one innovator to show the community what a class can do given the appropriate circumstances, and suddenly there’s viability. A class will not evolve without dedicated players to really test its limits and work towards finding its niche, even if that niche is less apparent than others (and even if, ironically, the abilities appear more straightforward than others).

Cogbyrn

Perhaps I don’t know you well enough to recognize your light-heartedness on his light-heartedness, but civility hasn’t exactly been your modus operandi since your initial post in this thread. The only impression I’ve gotten out of your content is an aggressive attempt at convincing others that Warriors aren’t good enough for tPvP, instead of trying to brainstorm innovative ways to fit them into a comp.

Well I’m not sure why the‘s were taken out of my post, but then again the moderators have been deleting our lighthearted quips and comments all day so you’re missing a lot of the context, which is totally not your fault since the posts keep getting deleted (having a chuckle with another poster is “off-topic” and thusly removed sadly, lol).

Not sure why you feel I’ve come across as aggressive, for that surely isn’t my intention. However unlike Defektive it’s against my nature, very much against it, to dance around words. I’m blunt, I don’t believe in “tact” or any of that crap. Just spit out what you want to say and be done with it. I understand if that’s come across as abrasive or whatnot but well….. /shrug

The thing is that it’s not just my opinion. I’ve tried all the builds, and believe it or not I STILL play my warrior (in pugs, I won’t drag my team down in actual competitive tourney’s by playing a sub-par class) and try to figure out SOMETHING he does better, or at least as good as another class all around. But as I said it’s not just my opinion, I follow the “pro” teams pretty heavily, I watch their game streams, I read their opinions on the meta/class balance, I listen to the podcasts. Again there is a reason that major players from teams such as TP, AC and such have dropped wars from the roster and come out to say that wars are a waste of a class spot. I trust the truly hardcore tourney guys to know since they ARE the ones that are pushing the meta.

You’re right however, wars are fine in WvWvW and SPvP (follow the zerg modes basically) because it’s less reliant on actual balance and the devs have even said since the beginning that neither mode is supposed to be balanced. You can blend into the zerg, important CD’s are probably used up more often allowing you to burst without as much interference, etc.

All my posts are in regards to TPvP and I won’t begrudge you that I’m biased because I feel that competitive tourney play is the only pvp that really matters when it comes to the meta/balance argument. Of course everyone else’s opinions are just as valid and I don’t pretend to claim otherwise.

Look how good of a guy you are. I’m ultra surprised to hear that winkeys have been removed, but they would definitely add some light-hearted context that the internet otherwise cannot convey. The first few posts came off very much as “WARRIORS ARE TERRIBLE SHUT YOUR MOUTHS”, but I can see where that’s an exaggerated misconception.

I’ll agree that competitive tourney play is the only form of PvP that matters re: balance. You can do whatever in WvWvW and make it work with enough effort. However, what is competitive tourney play at this point? Did they ninja organized PvP/paid tourneys/private servers into the game while I have been taking a short break? If not, then free tourneys are just random tourney queues, and I feel like the really competitive match-ups are too few and far between to really start evolving the game beyond what it is now.

My current favorite example is Dendi pudge, if you follow the competitive DotA scene. No other professional DotA team or player plays pudge ever it seems, but teams still respect ban pudge from Na’Vi because Dendi manhandles people with him. It isn’t like the rest of the players are bad, it’s probably just that Dendi loves pudge and figured out how to make him fit into their framework. Similarly, if you find someone with a love for Warrior, I can’t help but feel like that person will adapt appropriately to fit into the mold and contribute properly to a team.

But again, I’ll wait for the actual competition to start. Private servers, private tourneys, more hardcore practice, etc. I get that the math points to inferiority, and all signs point to inferiority, but I’m stubborn as all hell.

As the Warrior is the vanilla profession, I imagine it will always be the second choice to any role. Unlike GW1, though, you don’t have UAS to worry about, so there’s no excuse for not having a better option available. They’re obviously not going to change the Warrior’s active utility to compete with other classes, as that’s not the point of the class, so it will always have this problem for as long as it exists. Just as well, there will always be people saying “you just don’t know how to play it, unlike me, as I am great.” Just gotta deal with it.

One thing I will mention is that since Warriors are considered to be easy targets, not just by Warrior players, they are often primary targets, as they are seen as easy kills. As a result, any problems that Warriors actually DO have are, as a result, highlighted because they’re always being burned down, just because it’s considered quick and easy.

GW1 had a very similar problem with Warriors, in that they were dumb, sustained pressure classes that had mild burst abilities. Alone, they were practically worthless because every class in the game could counter them very easily with often only one skill. Unfortunately in GW2, there’s no monk to ride on your back to help you do your job; you’re on your own. As a result, the problems that never got fixed in GW1 because they weren’t exactly “problems” are easier to see in GW2. When you make a class that tries to compensate for a lack of active utility with passive utility skills (vulnerability, bleeding, etc), you end up with either a very overpowered class that other players have to try too hard to beat, or a mediocre class that doesn’t do anything particularly well and has a low skill ceiling, to boot. More importantly, it’s just not very fun.

I’ve read a lot of counter arguments in this thread, but they’re all to major problems, and usually hinge on a single trait as the solution to a class-wide problem (Mobile Strikes being the usual culprit, no doubt), or suggest that the player in question is using only one build type, as it’s the only one that can actually integrate all these countermeasures at once. Sure, you can make a build that allows you to actually perform a role in tPvP, but it’s probably not going to be very efficient, and it’s probably incredibly specific, after hours of trying to squeeze every ounce of utility you can possibly get out of the profession into one build, as the profession as a whole is so devoid of it that it stagnates our own meta.

Hey guys since we’re all pretty passionate as to how the Warrior class could be performing better in PvP I created a thread on the sPvP Forum. (yes I concede, after playing a Mesmer a little today we are slightly vanilla ish)

The thread is about improvements to the Warrior class in an open dialog to Jon.

In it I detail a concept I hope will be picked up in regards to comboing different attacks into each other for special effects.

Think Mace 1 creates a Combo Strike,

Using Mace 2 and if a Combo Strike is present, place Weakness on the enemy and grant Vigor to the Warrior.

Also give special bonus’s for doing Combos across weapon sets.

Example:

Attack with Mace 1 – Gain a Combo Strike
Swap
Attack with Hammer 5 (stun)
Extra effect: Cause a churning earth effect placing bleeds and slows on enemies surrounding the warrior.

The concept is to promote weapon swaps and using different attacks in coordination in order to create benefits to the warrior and their team, as well as place a hindrance on enemies.

Please comment, show your support or give your own suggestion here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Dear-Jon-My-thoughts-on-Warriors-and-unique-improvements/first#post358904

Thanks fellas.

Defektive.7283:

Hey guys since we’re all pretty passionate as to how the Warrior class could be performing better in PvP I created a thread on the sPvP Forum. (yes I concede, after playing a Mesmer a little today we are slightly vanilla ish)

The thread is about improvements to the Warrior class in an open dialog to Jon.

Very nice, I think that it’s a wonderful idea (I do actually like the concept of having weapon combo’s somehow as it seems to fit the “feel” of the warrior “master of arms”.) I do believe this whole thing comes down to being passionate about warriors which is a good thing.

(I have a mesmer I main for TPvP now as well due to how well designed the class is for TPvP so I totally understand how playing one can cause a person to see warriors in a slightly different light. Also an engi, which I think is designed brilliantly as well, a necro cause it’s fun and an Ele, also designed beautifully for engaging play.)

Defektive.7283:

Kiting: Leap has a very short CD fyi. I also have very few problems being kited mainly because I cleanse the conditions as they come instead of letting them stack ontop of other buffer conditions that stop the cleanse from hitting the right condition.

Spending Adren: There are a number of methods to regain adren quickly. You should be constantly using your adren not just letting it sit there and fester. Don’t let that stop you from using an F1 that’ll give you a gap close or keep an enemy in front of you.

Also in regards to using ES as a gap close: You only need 1 bar of adren to use it and it’s on a 10 sec CD. You don’t need to save up a full adren bar to use it for multiple effects.

And we should have to trait to do certain things, if anything the classes you’re referring to should be toned down to our level instead of us buffed up to theirs.

By asking for more conditions to be added with standard attacks you’re essentially simplifying the game.

While yes we do have to sacrifice a lot to be marginally good at certain areas, I wouldn’t count us out just because of that.

It almost sounds like you’re purposely trying to find reasons to not like the class. There are plenty of reasons TO like the class.

Edit:

Forgot to add in regards to making us better for Tournaments. I’d like to see our base toughness / armor increased so we wouldn’t have to trait/gear so hard so we’re not squishy.

Kiting: So, in order to avoid kite you are forced to go shout build.. thats not very nice is it? Better call us bards instead of warriors, since shouting is the only viable build for competitive pvp.

Adren: When I spoke about adren, I was just trying to point out how gw1 had many layers of strategy built into him. Spend adren or rip its benefits while being full? GW2 has been heavily simplified in this regard.

I do not think the game would be more simplified if we had more conditional skills that are able to perform multiple objectives, like other classes can do at the moment.

Want to see a very simple example? rangers short bow #3, not only you jump back, but you gain swiftness. Why can´t warrior gap closers have a 2-3 sec swiftness to make up for the melee hard time in this game?

well personally I play warrior archetypes in most games / MMO’s as dps…I’m honestly losing more and more faith in warriors damage capabilities in tournament settings…/shrug just me though. Might have to explore some alts.