Guild Wars 2

Do people now take into consideration that Empowered is only a 1% per boon increase.

Updated. Next I want to look at each without the benefit of vulnerability, should you be in a group that already hits 25 stacks on its own.

Done and spreadsheet is updated.. The abilities being used to gain vuln, if you already have 25 vuln, are a DPS loss over a simpler rotation. You can see this with the NV and NVn tabs in the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqCHNWXHft5SdFR6WkR4R2JxSS1xcHlZc1FEa195R0E#gid=7

GS + Axe/Mace is always the absolute best, whether vuln capped and simplifying rotation or not vuln capped and working to help keep it capped. It’s 2.8% to 3.4% better if your execution and timing are perfect.

Really, with a # that small in difference, I’d rather have the simplified rotation and have more situational awareness as a result, but that’s just me.

I rather like the 20 in Arms for the might stacks on crit. Then again I don’t use axes either, and use GS/rifle/bow because there’s always that one boss or creep that can’t be fought in close combat.

You have made several references to a “cost” of managing your weapon swaps and a loss of “situational awareness.” Quite frankly, most experienced warriors can weapon swap on cool down without even looking at the timer. After you put in thousands of hours on a character you hopefully learn how to execute a relatively simple dps rotation. It isn’t too much to ask to have a player learn how to maximize his profession.

GS/rifle/bow because there’s always that one boss or creep that can’t be fought in close combat.

Name three.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Name three.

For ~99,9% of gw2 population: Ashyn, 2nd Archdiviner in phase 2, Imbued Shaman.

What about the terrible Ancient Ooze???

Three was enough!

I wasn’t counting fractals =P.

But still, asking a warrior to manage a weapon swap as part of a dps rotation isn’t a huge deal. I mean, elementalists manage 4 weapon swaps and cool downs. Engineers also have complicated dps rotations so this isnt me saying you have to be playing guitar hero on hard mode 150 APM to maximize a warrior dps; it’s one simple rotation with a weapon swap in the middle where the cool downs mostly line up and do the work for you.

You misread. It’s not as simple as just swapping weapons on CD. I can do that, easily. It’s getting read of .2 to -.2 ms gaps in cooldowns that are necessary to get the extra % points you gain. There is no “rotation” until you reach several cycles of swaps because the cooldowns (I did the best I could with the actual ability times in those spreadsheets to land on a pattern, full Axe + GS ‘rotation’ would take many cycles to repeat), when counting actual animation time and latency, simply don’t line up well enough. This means rather than becoming very good at having mastered a rotation, like say you would a build order in an RTS, to get those extra % points you are focusing on “which ability is ready and most beneficial?” fairly constantly.

If you’re not doing that, if you’ve settled into a rotation over a small # or even a single cycle, you’re wasting milliseconds to allow that consistency and much of those gains (possibly all, feel free to throw up a repeatable rotation that you use) are lost.

If someone has a video of the following, I’ll gladly eat crow:

- Full boss encounter where they never strike more than 1 time with Sword Auto
- Full boss encounter where they never accidentally slide through a boss trying to land 4 hits via WW
- Full boss encounter where there is never a weapon swap CD, Vuln Debuff CD like say, crushing blow or Cyclone, unused for more than .1 ms and no more than a total of 10 times are there any delays at all.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

… where the cool downs mostly line up and do the work for you.

They line up poorly with actual cast times taken into account. The waiting for them to actually line up eats up the % gains from making the attempt.

Ive done the rotation with cooldowns taken into account and GS/Axe is about 10% more dps than pure axe. Thats on a boss where it lasts more than 20 seconds. On thrakitten takes off even more due to the fact that GS offers high burst at the start.

I dont know why you bring up being top 50 in “the other game” when you cant even do a simple warrior rotation in this game.

Anecdotes are anecdotes and evidence is evidence. They’re not the same. There are people that have been abducted by aliens, saw Elvis at Walmart and can speak to your dead relatives if you ask them.

I could do a “simple warrior rotation” if that’s what it was, but that’s not what it is. It’s not a rotation. The times just don’t add up. You say it’s about 10% more DPS than pure axe. Excellent, point to the math showing that to be true and I’ll gladly agree.

I set out to get evidence to reach a conclusion. I’ve posted the evidence. I’ve put up spreadsheets that show it’s 2.6%, not 10%, and it also shows it’s not a “rotation” so much as it is slapping abilities on CD which will be out of order for several cycles before they resynch into anything you could call a rotation.

I took the time to do the work and to share the work. You were helpful in highlighting a non-capped vuln rotation that has very very good dps. That was information that was testable, usable and informative. Saying “is about 10% more dps than pure axe”… how did you measure that? Time to death for mob once? 10 times? Felt like 10%? Logged extensively? Laid out the math in a simulation?

As I said before, if someone has a video of the following, I’ll gladly eat crow:

- Full boss encounter where they never strike more than 1 time with Sword Auto
- Full boss encounter where they never accidentally slide through a boss trying to land 4 hits via WW
- Full boss encounter where there is never a weapon swap CD, Vuln Debuff CD like say, crushing blow or Cyclone, unused for more than .1 ms and no more than a total of 10 times are there any delays at all.

The video won’t appear. It won’t appear because that isn’t how the game works and it’s not how people work.

IMO, pure dps differential is minimal between the builds discussed here and can easily be negated depending on boss encounter and other situational effects.

Also with regards to rotations;

• The axe chain is backloaded which is 3.6s for the full dmg effect
• The 100B is 3.2s long and evenly distributed

None of these work great with a 10s or 5s weapon swap, however weapon swap can easily be timed if one always start axe dps with cyclone (which you should), its 6s cd timer is somewhat well timed with the axe auto chain (with some tweaks).

I think everyone knows that you want to wait for the axe chain to complete before swapping. But anyway…

So with the small difference it all comes down to actual execution and specific situation, imo with that in play you want a quick roation that includes 100B since the AOE dmg is superior from the 100B/WW and the invuln from the WW is also a bonus.

Lets take Alpha as a very simple example, with a DPS rotation a Warrior can almost manage a full encounter without the need to dodge, it also (if alpha is very aoe happy) allows the warrior to regen end by providing an extra escape mechanism. This secondary whirlwind effect is great in almost any boss encounter where you want to escape dmg.

A secondary effect is the use of Weapon Swap sigils, if you dont have the Fast Hand trait they are almost useless, with the fast hand trait however you can basically provide 6 stacks of 20s Might (ofc assuming you dont use an oncrit sigil) in addition to the 1 stack from secondary traits that 7 stacks permanently.

And just as a note, there seems to be a misconception that the goal should always be to shoot for the highest theoretical number possible when looking to clear content, and anyone who isn’t doing that isn’t looking to “min/max” or be leet.

That’s not accurate.

Take the following example: A 150 key sequence results in 100,000 damage. Failing the sequence results in 0 damage. The same class has a 5 key sequence that does 3,000 damage. 10% less damage for the same time period, yet anyone serious about clearing content is going to stick with 5 key sequences because there are normally many other factors to consider than just the attack. You need to move, dodge, buff teammates, possibly revive a teammate if something goes bad. Maybe you need to pick up an add that spawns or be kiting.

The 150key sequence could do 1,000,000 damage and the choice would be the same. Unless you’re standing still punching a stuffed dummy, complexity counts.

This is why a video showing that it is possible to perfectly execute moves exactly as necessary to reach that potential is important. How a rotation performs in the real world is more important than simulation, and ease of execution plays a significant factor in that.

aeneq.1760:

Also with regards to rotations;

• The axe chain is backloaded which is 3.6s for the full dmg effect
• The 100B is 3.2s long and evenly distributed

Interesting that these are your numbers. I used a stop watch in ‘real time’ and then took recorded video and compared frame times. I used samples of 50 executions or more to come up to an average.

100b’s time from starting to being able to execute the next attack was 3.5, the only attack to be perfectly on the money with its stated time. Axe chain also was 3.5, which seemed longer than they intended.

I wonder how much latency is playing a role there, as it doesn’t see intuitive that you’d have less latency for one ability and more for another than I do. What race are you using (sneaking suspicion this could be a root cause of timing differences). I’m using Charr.

You do realize this is a moot point? Each such “real life” test is so dependent on group composition (being able to stay for chain completion for instance, heal regen etc etc).

Also the same is true for both builds, granted the Axe/GS has a higher skill level and the 100B is rooted which has its risks you are still waiting the the axe chain to complete and if you loose the tripple thats a huge chunk of dps gone.

IMO asking for a real life against a boss is an invalid request, this is all theoretical and best case assumptions anyway so if you are going for a comparison a dummy is the way to go and I bet someone can produce a Video of punching a dummy…

Its better to stick to the purely theoretical first and worry about actually realizing it later, no point mixing the two up into the same scenario (divide and conquer).

Unleashed.6195:

I wonder how much latency is playing a role there, as it doesn’t see intuitive that you’d have less latency for one ability and more for another than I do. What race are you using (sneaking suspicion this could be a root cause of timing differences). I’m using Charr.

Should never use the animation to stopgap the chain, suggest disabling auto attack and use the skill availability instead since these should be locally coordinated and thus lag independent (ofcourse you would need to calculate each chain step separately since the input lag is relevant).

I’ve done the work for all in terms of “I’m standing at a dummy and have the following debuffs on boss”. Complexity is easy to measure. How long does it take to find a pattern in what abilities to activate?

Pure Axe/Mace has orders of magnitude less complexity (you will -still- swap on every CD for Sigil of Battle). It’s going to have a higher % of situations where it’s usable.

aeneq.1760:

Should never use the animation to stopgap the chain, suggest disabling auto attack and use the skill availability instead since these should be locally coordinated and thus lag independent (ofcourse you would need to calculate each chain step separately since the input lag is relevant).

Yes, you could work towards shortcutting an animation if you have an ability that breaks in. That could be why you’re stating 3.2 rather than 3.5. Will look later, but I doubt you can safely go for 3.2 rather than 3.5, possibly could get it down to 3.4 without ever running the risk of clipping that final strike.

Unleashed.6195:

…

Pure Axe/Mace has orders of magnitude less complexity (you will -still- swap on every CD for Sigil of Battle). It’s going to have a higher % of situations where it’s usable.

Not sure I follow you, the last paragraph confuses me. With a 10s swap cd youd have to have 2 sigils for the full benefit which is a wasted slot and I thought the scenario was that you stayed in Axe/Mace.

There is the odd scenario where you can use weapon swap and stay in the same setup (only one hand in each swap has a weapon) but that setup is very constraining.

You have two axe/mace equipped, both with one weapon having a SoB.

If the confusion was on relative complexity (Nike consistently assumes I think it’s hard just to weapon swap), the doc should help highlight the difference.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqCHNWXHft5SdFR6WkR4R2JxSS1xcHlZc1FEa195R0E#gid=7

Look at the AxeGS tabs to see what you need to do to get the most optimal timing, it’s a PITA thanks to imprecise ability times/CD synchs.

Yeah limiting yourself to one weapon set is imo a bad thing anyway…

I decided to redo some testing on the skill durations and I found something disturbing, I play a Norn character and I used fraps to capture a 100B sequence of X samples with each sample having a 8s cd this allows me to calculate the actual duration for the 100B…

Weird thing is that I get 4.5 seconds which is way off what it should be I also verified it using a one attack sequence (until timer pops) and it seems accurate.

Can someone else plz verify this (I am hoping something is messed up in my testing).

aeneq.1760:

Yeah limiting yourself to one weapon set is imo a bad thing anyway…

It can be, but the first thing I wanted to establish was highest possible dps and highest possible reliable dps. I want to compare utility weapons now (most of the DPS can be earned from Axe alone, making it more versatile as you can combo it with another axe, a sword, a mace or a shield, if your secondary is a GS, your rotation, timing and trait advantages change).

Unleashed i will provide info when im home. Or if you care enough look through my post history and find my post of my spreadsheet.

Puandro.3245:

Unleashed i will provide info when im home. Or if you care enough look through my post history and find my post of my spreadsheet.

I do care, I don’t mind digging for information if I know it’s out there (my willingness to put time into this should be obvious).

I’ll look for your sheet.

aeneq.1760:

Yeah limiting yourself to one weapon set is imo a bad thing anyway…

I decided to redo some testing on the skill durations and I found something disturbing, I play a Norn character and I used fraps to capture a 100B sequence of X samples with each sample having a 8s cd this allows me to calculate the actual duration for the 100B…

Weird thing is that I get 4.5 seconds which is way off what it should be I also verified it using a one attack sequence (until timer pops) and it seems accurate.

Can someone else plz verify this (I am hoping something is messed up in my testing).

Seems to be skill lag, got similar issue with whirlwind about .5-1s delay, youll loose about 1 GS autoattack in the dps rotation since you swap back to axe as soon as swap timer is up (guesstimate).

However if the Skill lag delay happens on both the 100B and the new Axe chain after the swap then its a pretty big dps loss. Reminds me of the Engineer bomb autoattack, the first attack has a woundup but after that it spews bombs like crazy.

Is the spreadsheet you’re referencing from here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Build-The-REAL-maximum-DPS-thief

?

Looking through it now, found a post where you stated you authored the sheet. I saw the rotation information below, the only thing that stood out immediately were some of the cast times were a little short (there’s a slight delay with every swap, ~.2s), will take a little to unravel the rest as it’s a sheet meant to do -everything- from the ground up.

FWIW, I would play GS+Axe Mace even if it was 3% worse dps, simply because it has more versatility and utility than a pure greatsword build. Luckily it’s 3% better so I can rest easy knowing I get the best of both world.

Whats hilarious is, the 30/0/0/10/30 trait allocation would be better even in a pure GS swap to a GS with Battle sigil setup than your 30/30/0/10/0 build.

Based on your spreadsheet with the very optimized Axe/GS rotation (cutting into chain combos to get swaps dead on the 5s mark every time or to prevent a single double strike of an auto when unwanted) when compared against the simpler axe/mace full (two sets, swapping every 5s within bounds of CDs/Chains), there is a 5.4% difference in DPS when the traits are set to 30/0/0/10/30 with the build mentioned before.

I also noticed some issues where abilities were being used before their CDs would be available, pushing up higher dps moves into the rotation. It’s not a significant change, but enough of one on small timeframes like this to account for some of that % differential between 5.4% and 2.6%.

Hats off for very very good work on the sheet as well as the effort behind it. Another tip of the hat for the demeanor you’ve carried while assisting the community over 20+ pages of posts. None of us keep it 100% of the time, but you’re consistently helpful and respectful.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Whats hilarious is, the 30/0/0/10/30 trait allocation would be better even in a pure GS swap to a GS with Battle sigil setup than your 30/30/0/10/0 build.

FWIW, you haven’t kept track of the thread very well. As I’d hoped, information came to light (in large part thanks to Paundro and others) that helped establish where you can get gains from 30/0/0/10/30 over 30/30/0/10/0 reliably.

Since that time, the question has circled to which weapons to use with 30/0/0/10/30 for highest raw dps. I also found 2.6% (close enough to three where I imagine even you wouldn’t quibble) improvement from using both GS and Axe/Mace. However, the rotation complexity (not swapping weapons, but maintaining CDs that do not align well on both weapon sets, force cancelling chains or channeleds) to earn that 2.6% increase I do not believe is worth it nor realistic in real world situations.

Beating on a stationary target? Sure. Dodging/watching for red circle spam/moving/switching to an add that spawns… all that added complexity is likely to cause tiny but accumulated delays that eat away at the % gain.

The question of utility is different and one that’s likely to change boss to boss, the goal was to first establish which was the most reliable, consistent highest dps.

You said before you’d said all you had to say on that matter, but am glad to see you back to participating. Now may be a good time, if the thread is worth your time to respond, to read it as well.

Unleashed.6195:

Looking through it now, found a post where you stated you authored the sheet. I saw the rotation information below, the only thing that stood out immediately were some of the cast times were a little short (there’s a slight delay with every swap, ~.2s), will take a little to unravel the rest as it’s a sheet meant to do -everything- from the ground up.

The cast times are correct i can assure you, i used recording software and viewed it frame by frame to get it correct.

I also don’t know what you mean im using abilities before their CD’s are up. If you care to add a .2 sec delay for swapping you can edit it in and make your own rotation. If you enable editing you can even edit the buffs/traits ect. Also you cannot swap every 5 secs with Axe/Axe, you can only swap after Chop, Double Chop, or Tripple chop. Swapping mid auto attack will cause dps loss.

Puandro.3245:

The cast times are correct i can assure you, i used recording software and viewed it frame by frame to get it correct.

I did the same, and we’re only different by .1 seconds, so it’s not exactly a huge difference. Mine are .1s faster for two attacks (3.5 vs 3.6).

I also don’t know what you mean im using abilities before their CD’s are up.

You weren’t for the build you originally had for that rotation. You were counting on a 6 second 100b CD from the 20% reduction via traits which you won’t have with 30/0/0/10/30. I didn’t take the time to go through and reedit the swaps to 100b that were coming in at < 8 seconds (sometimes ~7). When I saw that even before those tweaks, it was only @ 5.4%, I lost energy for the effort.

Puandro.3245:

If you care to add a .2 sec delay for swapping you can edit it in and make your own rotation. If you enable editing you can even edit the buffs/traits ect. Also you cannot swap every 5 secs with Axe/Axe, you can only swap after Chop, Double Chop, or Tripple chop. Swapping mid auto attack will cause dps loss.

I did, and accounted for both, I let full chop chains go for the Axe/Mace + Axe/Mac swaps rather than attempting to optimize mid chain as the whole goal of that was not to find highest possible DPS (knowing GS + Axe/Mace would be that), but to find the highest consistent DPS with lowest rotation management overhead. Essentially, Auto-attack and hit Cyclone/Crushing Blow/Tremor on CD while swapping as close to 5s as you’re able.

Excellent sheet you created for seeing full debuff/buff DPS. The numbers can get pretty crazy. Axe/Mace + Axe/Mace bumping right up against 10k dps is insane.

Unleashed.6195:

Puandro.3245:

The cast times are correct i can assure you, i used recording software and viewed it frame by frame to get it correct.

I did the same, and we’re only different by .1 seconds, so it’s not exactly a huge difference. Mine are .1s faster for two attacks (3.5 vs 3.6).

I also don’t know what you mean im using abilities before their CD’s are up.

You weren’t for the build you originally had for that rotation. You were counting on a 6 second 100b CD from the 20% reduction via traits which you won’t have with 30/0/0/10/30. I didn’t take the time to go through and reedit the swaps to 100b that were coming in at < 8 seconds (sometimes ~7). When I saw that even before those tweaks, it was only @ 5.4%, I lost energy for the effort.

Puandro.3245:

If you care to add a .2 sec delay for swapping you can edit it in and make your own rotation. If you enable editing you can even edit the buffs/traits ect. Also you cannot swap every 5 secs with Axe/Axe, you can only swap after Chop, Double Chop, or Tripple chop. Swapping mid auto attack will cause dps loss.

I did, and accounted for both, I let full chop chains go for the Axe/Mace + Axe/Mac swaps rather than attempting to optimize mid chain as the whole goal of that was not to find highest possible DPS (knowing GS + Axe/Mace would be that), but to find the highest consistent DPS with lowest rotation management overhead. Essentially, Auto-attack and hit Cyclone/Crushing Blow/Tremor on CD while swapping as close to 5s as you’re able.

Excellent sheet you created for seeing full debuff/buff DPS. The numbers can get pretty crazy. Axe/Mace + Axe/Mace bumping right up against 10k dps is insane.

Yes the rotation there was the old one before warrior got patched and used 25 arms. I did the rotation on another copy of the spreadsheet with the correct CD’s. I can assure you if you are getting more damage with Pure axe you are doing the GS/Axe rotation wrong.

Unleashed.6195:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Whats hilarious is, the 30/0/0/10/30 trait allocation would be better even in a pure GS swap to a GS with Battle sigil setup than your 30/30/0/10/0 build.

FWIW, you haven’t kept track of the thread very well. As I’d hoped, information came to light (in large part thanks to Paundro and others) that helped establish where you can get gains from 30/0/0/10/30 over 30/30/0/10/0 reliably.

Since that time, the question has circled to which weapons to use with 30/0/0/10/30 for highest raw dps. I also found 2.6% (close enough to three where I imagine even you wouldn’t quibble) improvement from using both GS and Axe/Mace. However, the rotation complexity (not swapping weapons, but maintaining CDs that do not align well on both weapon sets, force cancelling chains or channeleds) to earn that 2.6% increase I do not believe is worth it nor realistic in real world situations.

Beating on a stationary target? Sure. Dodging/watching for red circle spam/moving/switching to an add that spawns… all that added complexity is likely to cause tiny but accumulated delays that eat away at the % gain.

The question of utility is different and one that’s likely to change boss to boss, the goal was to first establish which was the most reliable, consistent highest dps.

You said before you’d said all you had to say on that matter, but am glad to see you back to participating. Now may be a good time, if the thread is worth your time to respond, to read it as well.

I admit, I have not tracked the thread very well. I’m glad you’ve come around to recognizing I was right, kudos to you for showing the intellectual honesty required to admit such.

Additionally, when the warrior trait changed happened on June 25, I crunched the numbers (actually prior to the change when the notes leaked early) and determined that a pure axe build would have superior dps and have a much easier rotation than gs+axe/mace. And the original build guide i published was pure axe.

However, in real world game play I found that having the evade from WWA while maintaining DPS worked out better. A 3rd dodge that also does considerable damage turns out to be highly advantageous from a practicality standpoint. I reckon pure axe is 1% better than gs+axemace on paper but to me having the extra evade more than makes up for it.

So was playing around with rotations the other day; with sharpened axes (20% reduction on axe skills) I got this rotation that flows very well…

cyclone
crushing blow
<tremor if available and desireable>
Axe chain
Cyclone
<swap>
100B
<WW if available and doable>
<autoattack to swap>
…
repeat

There is a slight skew in the flow when tremor comes up but its minor, this flow should provide close to 11 stacks vulnerability over time (2 cyclones in one swap+the crushing blow) this should be 4-5% dmg extra over the normal chain.

Havent done the math on this one and what could be a concern is;

1. Only one axe chain per swap (however two goes above the weapon swap timer and as long as a swap to GS is a benefit then this should be moot)
2. Losing Destruction of the Empowered so as long as the boss is 2+ boons this would be a loss in dps (getting fuzzy here, if the skill chain is better than the normal one then it might be 3+ boons)

Would be interesting to see any feedback on the actual chain being used…

Puandro.3245:

… I can assure you if you are getting more damage with Pure axe you are doing the GS/Axe rotation wrong.

I’m not, I stated I was getting 2.6% better DPS from my own work and 5.4% before having time to fix up the slight issues with abilities being used before their CDs were available on your sheet.

GS/Axe + Mace is higher DPS. It’s just noticably higher DPS at a level of complexity that does not seem feasible in any normal gameplay setting.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

I admit, I have not tracked the thread very well. I’m glad you’ve come around to recognizing I was right, kudos to you for showing the intellectual honesty required to admit such.

No kudos required, I never cared to be right for the sake of being right, I just wanted the right information with the why behind it rather than just the answers. For people like me it’s critical to see the why because we’re innately skeptical of anything that becomes repeated dogma to copy. Nothing is lazier than finding a build, copying it and moving on without knowing -why- you should be copying it. It also prevents you from making the most of it as you don’t know which are the most essential pieces and which are easily replaced.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

However, in real world game play I found that having the evade from WWA while maintaining DPS worked out better. A 3rd dodge that also does considerable damage turns out to be highly advantageous from a practicality standpoint. I reckon pure axe is 1% better than gs+axemace on paper but to me having the extra evade more than makes up for it.

Getting numbers slightly different in that GS/Axe+Mace can be higher DPS in target dummy scenarios, but yeah, I think in real world situations Axe+Mace is going to be highest DPS. The question of how valuable that evade is I want to try to get my head around. It has a smaller CD than Riposte and I believe there are some attacks you can evade but not block, but Axe+Mace and Axe+Sword would provide most of the DPS of Axe+Mace/Axe+Mace if vuln is already capped.

Unleashed.6195:

The question of how valuable that evade is I want to try to get my head around. It has a smaller CD than Riposte and I believe there are some attacks you can evade but not block, but Axe+Mace and Axe+Sword would provide most of the DPS of Axe+Mace/Axe+Mace if vuln is already capped.

I don’t think the answer will come on a spreadsheet to the how valuable WWA question is. I find it quite valuable against enemies like Subject Alpha and Lupicus, whereas others may not.

Plus using Rush and WWA for trash run mobility is something difficult to measure. I find Arah and TA trash runs immensely easier with a GS than going pure axe. Granted you could always equip the GS for the trash run and switch back, but that seems like it would get old fast.

Great thread. Thanks for the diligence and discussion. I’ve had a lot of trouble with theorycrafting because of the hidden delays in this game, this helps.

Slight hijack though: has anyone here checked sword dps rotations? I do my theorycrafting for pvp, but I was surprised at the autoattack dps from sword when you include bleed damage (even in zerker gear). For pve do you normally assume capped bleeds and discount this?

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

I don’t think the answer will come on a spreadsheet to the how valuable WWA question is. I find it quite valuable against enemies like Subject Alpha and Lupicus, whereas others may not.

100% Agree. Start with numbers on a spreadsheet, understand the why behind them, then you can make informed decisions on each encounter per weapon and know what works best for you and the situation.

Will throw up that thread this week and be sure to fully credit everyone that participated for helping bring the info to light.

Oh actually I think I’ve answered my own question with Puandro’s spreadsheet. Bleed damage is showing up as a much smaller contribution for his pve setup than my pvp (lower power and crit). It doesn’t really look competitive at all for pve.

Also, on that spreadsheet: Character Excel Sheet.

-It looks like aftercast delays are included as cast time, is that correct?
-I was under the impression sword auto #3 (hamstring) was higher damage and dps than #1/#2, but I haven’t tested it. Are you sure the spreadsheet is correct for that?

Brigg.6189:

Oh actually I think I’ve answered my own question with Puandro’s spreadsheet. Bleed damage is showing up as a much smaller contribution for his pve setup than my pvp (lower power and crit). It doesn’t really look competitive at all for pve.

Also, on that spreadsheet: Character Excel Sheet.

-It looks like aftercast delays are included as cast time, is that correct?
-I was under the impression sword auto #3 (hamstring) was higher damage and dps than #1/#2, but I haven’t tested it. Are you sure the spreadsheet is correct for that?

It has been updated for the new sword changes. If it has the option to add rangers spirit pet damage increase than its up to date from what i have on my computer.

Mess with the gear and buffs ect and you will get the correct dps np.

Everyone is missing the greater points about the 30/0/0/10/30 build. Regardless of the DPS discussion going on here, displine has some of the best utility for warriors.

Fast weapon swap, as warriors we have the most weapon choices in the game if you don’t have all you’re weapons and constantly switching them out and using them you aren’t a good warrior.

Damage is important, that’s key. Switching out utilities and traits for fights is necessary for this game. I usually use warriors sprit, 25% movement speed is insane but when I don’t need it I can switch it out for other benefits like faster ignet recharge or vigor uing stances. Same with sweet revenge vs mobile strikes, yeah sharpened axes yields better DPS or perhaps even destruction of the empowered for certain situations but for fractals I love having choices to switch to.

We need the points in Strength, Arms just falls short because it doesn’t free me the utility I get from discipline, and this is the main reason why I enjoy this build overall.

I was able to solo kite the personal space achievement for my entire party during atherblade retreat by being able to switch out traits for maximum kiting.

Movie Strikes and Sweet revenge has helped me in fractals nice the beginning to lv 48s

You guys can argue forever about builds but the majority of you don’t even touch the better content of this game, if you did then you would understand what traits you needed and what you need to bring to the group.

Your point has already been mentioned in the thread (ww utility evaluation as an example) and that this is all purely theoretical optimization assuming an optimized group setup.

Traiting for “Sweet Revenge”, “Warrior’s Sprint”, “Mobile Strikes” etc. is all very good and allows the warrior to adjust for the group he is in but frankly this is mostly useful for PUG environment which is not the target for any serious dmg optimization.

And you should rethink your last statement and look at who is posting…

Dungorthb.3281:

You guys can argue forever about builds but the majority of you don’t even touch the better content of this game, if you did then you would understand what traits you needed and what you need to bring to the group.

Yeah i’m almost to fotm 28 once I get there I expect the challenges to ramp up. Also that TA f/u dungeon is tew hard.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Yeah i’m almost to fotm 28 once I get there I expect the challenges to ramp up. Also that TA f/u dungeon is tew hard.

He meant high-end content, namely Liadri.

Bah Liadri has nothing on TA f/u, just the name causes shivers in all groups and they run screaming for the exit before the spiders get them.

Heck I even whispered the name to Liadri and she fell dead on the spot! That’s btw how I beat her…

aeneq.1760:

Bah Liadri has nothing on TA f/u, just the name causes shivers in all groups and they run screaming for the exit before the spiders get them.

Heck I even whispered the name to Liadri and she fell dead on the spot! That’s btw how I beat her…

Like I said, high-end content.