Guild Wars 2

We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.

Jon

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvE-Revising-the-DPS-Meta/page/6#post3483213

i hope this does not nerf warrior in WvW, dont care what ever happen in PvE.

already warrior DPS got nerfed many times in the past patches.

a simple AI fix is better.

Come on, people have to come to the realization that Hundred Blades might be doing just a tad bit to much damage? Eviscerate seems a bit excessive to me as well. Even a thief doesn’t backstab that hard.

Hundred blades does 15% more damage than the axe autoattack chain (this is with slashing power and forceful greatsword by the way, my axe damage is without axe mastery), and if you’re not including hundred blades in an attack rotation, greatsword auto will make your dps drop to the point that it evens out or even drops below axe auto damage.

For example, my hundred blades on a Champion Risen Giant did 35,587 damage over a 3.5 second channel which is a DPS of 10,167.

My axe auto chain did a total of 30,381 damage over a period of 3.6 seconds (this is the length of an autoattack chain) which is a DPS of 8,437.

If you want to make hundred blades worse, you basically want to make greatsword not even worth taking.

mahariel.4981:

Hundred blades does 15% more damage than the axe autoattack chain (this is with slashing power and forceful greatsword by the way, my axe damage is without axe mastery), and if you’re not including hundred blades in an attack rotation, greatsword auto will make your dps drop to the point that it evens out or even drops below axe auto damage.

For example, my hundred blades on a Champion Risen Giant did 35,587 damage over a 3.5 second channel which is a DPS of 10,167.

My axe auto chain did a total of 30,381 damage over a period of 3.6 seconds (this is the length of an autoattack chain) which is a DPS of 8,437.

If you want to make hundred blades worse, you basically want to make greatsword not even worth taking.

And you’re failing to realize that no one else is capable of pulling those kinds of numbers. HB and axe auto is also capable of hitting 3 targets at the same time. Cleave makes a BIG difference. MAYBE a guardian with Whirling Wrath can hit those numbers, but thats it.

So I just did some quick testing (again, forceful greatsword, slashing power, no axe mastery)

My greatsword chain did a total of 3,448 DPS against a risen corrupter (this is with no buffing)

My axe chain did a total of 3,780 DPS.

I logged my guard and dealt the following:

2,916 DPS with sword autoattack chain and 3,402 with greatsword autoattack chain.

Note that my warrior has ascended weapons and three more ascended trinkets (2 rings, accessory). Also note that I did not use unscathed contender, did not proc power of the virtuous and did not proc an extra 20% in damage modifiers by making my enemy burn or have a condition on them (I stepped back after a chain).

What this means is that my warrior missed out on 13% in modifiers (stick and move + attack of opportunity) while my guardian missed out on 48% in modifiers (SY for PotV, unscathed, fiery wrath and 10%+ versus burning enemies).

Also, all weapons used are capable of cleave. So warrior DPS isn’t as overpowered as you think it is.

mahariel.4981:

Also, all weapons used are capable of cleave. So warrior DPS isn’t as overpowered as you think it is.

You’re still ignoring the fact that in your first test you pulled some pretty insane numbers. 35k HBs are not something other classes are capable of pulling. This is on a 7 second cooldown as well. I’ve personally pulled off 20k eviscerate criticals in dungeons on my own warrior. These are numbers that even my thief is incapable of reaching. Don’t even get me started on what a necromancer can’t do.

You’re looking at the big number and ignoring the details around it.

That’s 35,587 damage over a period of 3.5 seconds, not an instant 35k. Now since that was in a situation with slaying potion, food, banner of discipline, fury, five might stacks initially off of rage signet, allow me to try to set up a similar situation with guardian (using a vet risen giant).

I popped save yourselves, used bane signet and use focus 4, sword 2, virtue f1 and gs 3 to proc a total of 18 stacks of vuln (the focus 4 bounced a few times) plus that 48% in modifiers I talked about, then did a greatsword auto chain.

The DPS of the auto added to a total of 5,667. I then broke combat, waited for cooldowns, triggered 18 vuln again and used a sword auto chain and achieved a DPS of 6,608. I also forgot to pop food and a slaying potion, so I suppose I’ll just be lazy and throw an extra 10% on top (even though damage modifiers aren’t additive) so let’s call those numbers 6,233 DPS for GS auto and 7,268 DPS for sword auto. This again is not factoring in food, it also factors my lack of ascended on guardian.

I then did a whirling wrath and it registered as 13,183 damage on my game, and since it supposedly has a 0.75s casting time that means my whirling wrath alone had a DPS of 17,577. It also has a cooldown of 10s versus the 8.5s of hundred blades so it’s pretty spammable. Again, no slaying potion, food, limited ascended. My combat log gave me the following from it too:

1,919
719
1919
325
1919
719
1919
719
1919
719
868
719
868
719

Which equals 14 hits, which makes sense because I stood in its hitbox. What this means, is if we were to assume all crits (so basically damage dealt * 2.21 for my character) I would have dealt a 21,770 damage whirling wrath which would be 29,026 DPS.

So now do you understand that warriors aren’t DPS godmode?

Its already been shown mathematically how warriors dominate other classes in terms of raw damage. This is why you constantly see “zerk wars only” LFG posts. And people kicking thieves and necromancers out of groups because “LOL they can’t do damage.”

Just for funzies, I’d like you to show me how a thief or a necromancer can pull those numbers. Guardians are part of the DPS meta. Don’t forget that. They cleave just as much as warriors do, and give tons of group support while doing it.

I have quite literally just ran tests and given you all of the numbers I received, is that not math enough for you?

My hundred blades dealt a DPS of 10,167 (full crits).

My whirling wrath dealt a DPS of 17,577. However if we assume all of the non-crits did crit it leaves me instead with 29,026 DPS.

So please tell me how warriors dominate when I have literally, with absolutely zero might stacking besides save yourselves and virtue of justice (4 stacks together) almost dealt triple a warrior’s DPS..

You see “zerk war” posts because most people are sheep to the perceived meta and don’t understand other classes can deal good DPS. I would explain further, but since you’ve flat out ignored my damage numbers I don’t know if it’s worth it.

Kravick.4906:

Its already been shown mathematically how warriors dominate other classes in terms of raw damage. This is why you constantly see “zerk wars only” LFG posts. And people kicking thieves and necromancers out of groups because “LOL they can’t do damage.”

Just for funzies, I’d like you to show me how a thief or a necromancer can pull those numbers. Guardians are part of the DPS meta. Don’t forget that. They cleave just as much as warriors do, and give tons of group support while doing it.

mad? warrior2op4ulel

light armour target exploit detected

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mcaVPJnniU

mad? warrior2op4ulel

FemalewarriorevenmoarOP

Guardian dps still better NEW META RIGHT THERE FOLKS

ITT people not understanding what “damage per second” means

if it means making other build such as condispecs more viable then so be it, im bored of the zerker meta

Enaretos.8079:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mcaVPJnniU

mad? warrior2op4ulel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5nWnzaVr88

FemalewarriorevenmoarOP

Frenzy doesn’t count! And my warrior is a female

mahariel.4981:

So I just did some quick testing

My greatsword chain did a total of 3,448 DPS
My axe chain did a total of 3,780 DPS.

I logged my guard and dealt the following:
2,916 DPS with sword autoattack chain
3,402 with greatsword autoattack chain.

Also, all weapons used are capable of cleave. So warrior DPS isn’t as overpowered as you think it is.

now do some tests with:
Ranger
Necro
Engineer

good luck.

If there’s anything warriors don’t need is more dps nerfing. We’ve already taken SO many dps nerfs!

Also – can’t find the dev’s post.

There was already a thread proving that warriors are 3rd or 4th best dps class (only in pve).Still people crying war is op ,nerf and all that kitten?

rogerwilko.6895:

mahariel.4981:

So I just did some quick testing

My greatsword chain did a total of 3,448 DPS
My axe chain did a total of 3,780 DPS.

I logged my guard and dealt the following:
2,916 DPS with sword autoattack chain
3,402 with greatsword autoattack chain.

Also, all weapons used are capable of cleave. So warrior DPS isn’t as overpowered as you think it is.

now do some tests with:
Ranger
Necro
Engineer

good luck.

If I had them, sure. But I don’t.

I thought we’d all moved on from warrior QQ, but it seems I’m just going to have to paste my posts every time someone cries about hundred blades being OP.

mini.6018:

There was already a thread proving that warriors are 3rd or 4th best dps class (only in pve).Still people crying war is op ,nerf and all that kitten?

I remember that thread. All that math was for single target. Since warriors cleave with all of their attacks, you’ve gotta look at it from an AoE perspective. Warriors are still kings of the mountain.

Eles cleave, mesmers cleave, guards cleave, rangers cleave etc etc. I’ve already given you numbers now stop crying. Guardian sw/f + gs combat rotations will wipe the floor with warriors. Lightning hammer and staff eles have great dps, rangers have sword auto giving them solid cleave, mesmers have good sustained dps.

mahariel.4981:

Eles cleave, mesmers cleave, guards cleave, rangers cleave etc etc. I’ve already given you numbers now stop crying. Guardian sw/f + gs combat rotations will wipe the floor with warriors. Lightning hammer and staff eles have great dps, rangers have sword auto giving them solid cleave, mesmers have good sustained dps.

Everything you’ve just mentioned, except the guardian, is false. Yes, mesmers and eles cleave with one attack set (auto attack), but auto attack alone is not where the DPS comes from. You’ve given me numbers on a class that is considered part of the DPS meta. Since I know you can’t give me any solid numbers for any of the other classes, as has already been requested by more people than just me, I’m going to go ahead and say you’re full of it. You cannot look at one ability in a vacuum. You must consider the ENTIRE classes skill set.

Auto attack is where most dps comes from if you knew how to play. And I’ve compared auto attacks and burst skills, and while warrior dps pulls ahead by about 1.5k with auto, guardian burst destroys warrior burst, unless we bring in wall whirlwind, in which case things even out a lot more, but that’s not always possible, while sitting in a hitbox and getting a full whirling wrath is always possible, even on asura character enemies. And I told them I don’t have engis, necros or rangers to test on, if you want to claim I’m full of it then whatever, but while I’ve actually tested the numbers myself, you have just been making baseless claims. Maybe tomorrow I can ask someone to buff me might, fury etc. and I can test full skill rotations on veterans.

You’re going to need more than just veterans to test it on. Believe me, smarter people with better math skills than the both of us have already shown how warriors with their cleave damage are why 4 warriors and a guardian is the DPS meta.

This game is far from balanced. It heavily favors heavy armor users, its very obvious with how everything these classes do cleaves. Light armor classes get 1 cleave on an obscure auto attack (Mesmer sword is not a dungeon friendly build). Medium armor classes the same (Thief sword auto is one of the lowest damage attacks in the game, even with cleave). Necromancers have no cleave what so ever. Engineer, 1 cleave attack on their Tool Kit ability, and the 3rd attack in the chain is single target. Even worse DPS than the thief’s sword auto.

Somebody please beat some sense in to this guy.

mahariel.4981:

Somebody please beat some sense in to this guy.

Whats the matter? Logic to much for ya? You said auto attack is where most of the damage comes from. I showed you how only guardians and warriors have auto attacks actually worth mentioning.

Kravick.4906:

(Mesmer sword is not a dungeon friendly build).

You just lost all credibility with that statement.

Kravick.4906:

mahariel.4981:

Somebody please beat some sense in to this guy.

Whats the matter? Logic to much for ya? You said auto attack is where most of the damage comes from. I showed you how only guardians and warriors have auto attacks actually worth mentioning.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2011/10/full_kitten.jpg

Kravick.4906:

mahariel.4981:

Eles cleave, mesmers cleave, guards cleave, rangers cleave etc etc. I’ve already given you numbers now stop crying. Guardian sw/f + gs combat rotations will wipe the floor with warriors. Lightning hammer and staff eles have great dps, rangers have sword auto giving them solid cleave, mesmers have good sustained dps.

Everything you’ve just mentioned, except the guardian, is false. Yes, mesmers and eles cleave with one attack set (auto attack), but auto attack alone is not where the DPS comes from. You’ve given me numbers on a class that is considered part of the DPS meta. Since I know you can’t give me any solid numbers for any of the other classes, as has already been requested by more people than just me, I’m going to go ahead and say you’re full of it. You cannot look at one ability in a vacuum. You must consider the ENTIRE classes skill set.

You realize that if we take a LH ele for example the first 2 strikes of its auto chain (highest DPS it can have using LH) hit 3 targets, and the 3rd strike is 5 targets? Along with the fire might stack combo in fire hitting multiple targets aswel. Eles can easily outdps warriors on things other then single targets using either LH, Staff, FGS, Icebow etc… Saying warriors are the king of cleave DPS is pretty silly

Delay.6908:

You realize that if we take a LH ele for example the first 2 strikes of its auto chain (highest DPS it can have using LH) hit 3 targets, and the 3rd strike is 5 targets? Along with the fire might stack combo in fire hitting multiple targets aswel. Eles can easily outdps warriors on things other then single targets using either LH, Staff, FGS, Icebow etc… Saying warriors are the king of cleave DPS is pretty silly

Yes, I’m aware, but these kinds of eles get one shot more often than not. I’m always picking elementalists up off the ground in dungeons. This guy summed it up much better than I could. Pulled from https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvE-Revising-the-DPS-Meta/page/7

TPMN.1483

The current meta for high level zones is 3wars+guardian+other (FoTM) or 4wars+1other(many dungeons). Mostly all are running zerker.

Zerk wars seem OP (Due to heavy armour and high HP) compared to a zerk Ele (or thief with lower health pool, very squishy armour).
Many foes can one-shot the Ele or thief (12k HP), the War (~20K-30 KHP+) will take 2-4 hits before he feels any damage.
A balanced FoTM team at high levels (>2-4 hrs), zerk war based team (1-1.5 hrs).
Why is this the meta? One shot mechanics which kill other professions instantly (unless they are running full PvT) leaving the warrior still alive (regardless of armour).

This just doesn’t seem right- it kicks most other professions to the side.

Theres a reason berserker warriors are the meta. They do to much damage for the amount of HP/armor they can achieve with just glass cannon specs. Everything else is pushed to the side because of, and even ANet agrees, which is really all that matters.

You cant really talk about the DPS meta and use PUGS as examples, whenever i run with glass ele’s (which i run with ALOT) they rarely ever die since they can dodge and are not bad. If you are using pugs as your foundation for the “meta” then of course warriors are on top, they are easy to play and bring their own might/fury/banner uptimes. But if you use an actual organized group stacking warriors is not always the “best” way to go…

Delay.6908:

You cant really talk about the DPS meta and use PUGS as examples, whenever i run with glass ele’s (which i run with ALOT) they rarely ever die since they can dodge and are not bad. If you are using pugs as your foundation for the “meta” then of course warriors are on top, they are easy to play and bring their own might/fury/banner uptimes. But if you use an actual organized group stacking warriors is not always the “best” way to go…

But you have to consider this as part of why the meta exists in the first place. ANet created a class that, IMO, is far to forgiving and far to easy to play in comparison to the other classes. A necromancer is never going to pull the numbers a warrior can, nor can a thief, all because of cleave damage. Thieves have 1 cleave attack on sword, and its one of the worst DPS autos in the game. Necromancers have zero cleave attacks. Even their “condi cleave” is nullified by any class that auto procs bleeds on attack, which every class can do as far as I am aware.

Its go zerk or go home, and right now warriors do it best. Its true what people say. Warriors can really do everything other classes can do, but better, since they can, you know, live longer and apply it more often.

Well to be fair eles crush warriors in terms of cleave and AOE damage given the same buffs and banners.. so saying warriors do everything better is not entirely true considering they dont do the most damage in cleave, let alone 5 target AOE (which ele can also do a lot better)

Delay.6908:

Well to be fair eles crush warriors in terms of cleave and AOE damage given the same buffs and banners.. so saying warriors do everything better is not entirely true considering they dont do the most damage in cleave, let alone 5 target AOE (which ele can also do a lot better)

But a dead person does no damage. Eles also rely on a very specific rotation to do this. If someone accidentally picks up their lightning hammer off the ground, or they go down while holding a lightning hammer, their DPS drops considerably and they’re stuck auto attacking with lightning whip. I know what eles can do, but you can’t look at raw damage in a vacuum. Those eles will get one shot, while a warrior will take 2-4 hits before actually going down. Plus Healing Signet really takes the thought out of needing to activate a heal.

It is far, far easier to do this on a warrior. Its more forgiving and far more easier to pull off. Even the rotations on a warrior require far less effort. AKA, better.

Rotations? Eles DPS rotation is do a might stack and spam 1 on LH, also in a group wehre the ele hits top DPS it should be organized enough so no one picks up his LH, furtur more im assuming competent players that can dodge and wont die.. which is very realistic on ele builds since you have enough dodges/blocks/invuln to dont die to any boss except maybe HOTW p1 butcher since he is just overall a kitten to deal with.

Delay.6908:

Rotations? Eles DPS rotation is do a might stack and spam 1 on LH, also in a group wehre the ele hits top DPS it should be organized enough so no one picks up his LH, furtur more im assuming competent players that can dodge and wont die.. which is very realistic on ele builds since you have enough dodges/blocks/invuln to dont die to any boss except maybe HOTW p1 butcher since he is just overall a kitten to deal with.

True, except a warrior doesn’t need to worry about might stacking, since they just do it automatically. No thinking involved. Forceful Greatsword does it all for a warrior without having to push buttons. Ok, FGJ every 25 seconds, but its far, far easier to do than the might stacking rotation of an ele, which requires 3 attunement swaps, and very precise targeting on a thin line (Firewall), and has to be maintained every 20 seconds or so. Warriors just get it naturally without thinking by hitting HB every 7 seconds. Forceful Greatsword is per target hit, so it stacks up to 25 very quickly.

Use Scepter/dagger, do fire #2, #4, #3, go earth, #4, go air and drop LH, spam 1. Win, if your organized guardians or a staff ele will keep providing fields and you keep spamming 1. Boom perma fury/might for your whole group very easily. Also this might unlike forceful GS actually lasts a long time, so when your warrior(s) switch to their axe in their rotation they are still at 25 might instead of it dropping off due to lasting 5~seconds.

Delay.6908:

Use Scepter/dagger, do fire #2, #4, #3, go earth, #4, go air and drop LH, spam 1. Win, if your organized guardians or a staff ele will keep providing fields and you keep spamming 1. Boom perma fury/might for your whole group very easily. Also this might unlike forceful GS actually lasts a long time, so when your warrior(s) switch to their axe in their rotation they are still at 25 might instead of it dropping off due to lasting 5~seconds.

Yes, I’m aware of what eles can do, but like I said before, that rotation is far more complicated than simply switching to GS every 7 seconds and popping HB, which if you do this every 7 seconds, you’ll never fall off 25 stacks of might anyway. Your rotation also heavily depends on having someone else on board to drop fire fields for you. Warriors do it better simply by hitting 1 button and don’t have to worry about having other people around to do certain things.

You will fall off of 25 might easily. the might lasts 5 seconds, you dont HB every 5seconds.

Someone just link the guy to the vid of the ele hitting 10k Lava Fonts and 20k Meteors, while “omg hb too strong” threads are always funny to read you really shouldn’t feed the trolls by responding to them.

Im bored and can ONLY access these forums, dont judge me

They don’t really need to nerf Warrior DPS. It’s fine. What they need to do is look at condition stacking in PvE and make it work separately from WvW and PvP, since it’s obviously severely limiting the pool of workable PvE builds.

Fuschia.6573:

They don’t really need to nerf Warrior DPS. It’s fine. What they need to do is look at condition stacking in PvE and make it work separately from WvW and PvP, since it’s obviously severely limiting the pool of workable PvE builds.

They also need to give more importance to CC builds in PvE.

And give classes without access to cleave, or limited access to it, more options.

Kravick.4906:

And give classes without access to cleave, or limited access to it, more options.

agreed all classes should get buffed except necros .

Juba.8406:

Kravick.4906:

And give classes without access to cleave, or limited access to it, more options.

agreed all classes should get buffed except necros .

Why you hatin’ on necros?

Do Necros need a buff for PvE? Not really. Do the things they do need more relevance in high-end group PvE, i.e. CC and condition stacking? Absolutely.

Fuschia.6573:

Do Necros need a buff for PvE? Not really. Do the things they do need more relevance in high-end group PvE, i.e. CC and condition stacking? Absolutely.

yeah investing in one state should go away, maybe lower condition stacking to 15.