Guild Wars 2

Lol baseline fast hands is just a flat out no, even the biggest warrior fanboy devs would agree with me on this (cough Jon Peters cough). Warrior’s sprint tho, could be incorporated as a baseline of some melee weapons, or as a minor trait.

^^^

Can you make a build without “Fast Hands” ?,
did you say No ? thought so.

===

For Nay sayers, i just want to point you to the fact that we got 0 ZERO baseline traits

lets see what others got:

And I’m pretty sure engi will get some TBD baseline traits.

akaCryptic.2389:

Sure it should be baseline. But did we really need another topic on this since there are other threads as well as in depth discussion on overall trait change threads?

Nah.

We need 19 more “Fast Hands” threads.

Kamikazi.5380:

Why do we keep getting these threads? No it should not be made baseline, and it will never be made baseline.

Even if it becomes baseline, Discipline is still by far the best trait line for Warrior. Adrenaline and might on weapon switch, Warrior’s Sprint, Destruction of the Empowered, Brawler’s Recovery, Burst Mastery, there’s too many good traits on this line to not pick it up.

So Fast Hands might as well stay in Discipline, because with or without it any sensible Warrior will still pick Discipline.

Ok lets say you wanted the new spec line.

You cant let go of Discipline, you can’t let go of Defense, what you got left, you Need strength too if you want to use mending or GS and maybe Axe. you see ?

Which line would you let go ?

But if we got at least “Fast Hands” as Besline , while i would love to get “Warrior’s Sprint” too, then you know we might drop Discipline if the new spec is good.

If Fast Hands still there, no matter what specs they make Discipline will be there in every build.

Juba.8406:

^^^

Can you make a build without “Fast Hands” ?,
did you say No ? thought so.

Ranger
Traits that are now baseline:

• Grant fury on use of Survival skills.

Rangers are not getting this, they still have to use a GM trait for that, altho that particular trait is now like 3 traits in one.

About not being able to make builds without fast hands, one of the current two PvE meta builds doesn’t use it, the new meta Phalanx also won’t be using and will just be a “camping greatsword” type of build.

As far as PvP/WvW goes, it is a defining trait, but so are Deceptive evasion for mesmer, Evasive arcana for ele, Terror for any condition based necro, etc. All of those build defining features are still traits, some even moved further up to GM slots. They are meant to be desirable properties that make or break builds, and entire trait lines. Whether or not this is good design I can’t say, but the baseline mergers have mostly been about quality of life improvements, with the trait redesign being the real power creep part of the update.
Having fast hands as baseline for warriors on a feature that’s shared among professions (weapon swapping) would be a significant power creep change compared to the others that are mostly about baselining profession mechanics or utility skills. That’s why something like the passive adrenaline gain of Cleansing Ire would be a reasonable baseline expectation, since it modifies the profession mechanic, expecting fast hands in there is just laughable tbh.

Juba.8406:

^^^

Can you make a build without “Fast Hands” ?,
did you say No ? thought so.

===

For Nay sayers, i just want to point you to the fact that we got 0 ZERO baseline traits

lets see what others got:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Thief
Traits that are now baseline:

• +1 Venom additional charges.

Guardian
Traits that are now baseline:

• Consecrated Ground (Consecration skills use ground targeting).
• Elite duration increase.
• Improved Spirit weapon duration.

Mesmer
Traits that are now baseline:

• Reduced glamour recharge rate.
• Phantasmal damage boost.
• Manipulation range.
• Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well.
• Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce.
• Protective Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra

Necromancer
Traits that are now baseline:

• Wells uses ground targeting.
• Minion recharge reduction.
• Focus weapon range increases.

Ranger
Traits that are now baseline:

• Longbow velocity increase and range increase.
• 75% trigger rate on spirits.
• Grant fury on use of Survival skills.

And I’m pretty sure engi will get some TBD baseline traits.

I think warriors might get increased longbow range as baseline since it’s not mentioned in the new longbow trait.

That, or they removed it.

IMO, Fast hands should be nerfed. Start with a 6 second cooldown to see how much effect it does to warriors. I want to see more builds without FH. Other classes works fine without FH.

FH is too strong to be baseline.

Elorna.5329:

They are meant to be desirable properties that make or break builds, and entire trait lines.

dude can you hear yourself ? “Make or Break build” ?! , Dude Fast Hands Make or Break Warrior , and its not a desire it’s a must.

get your PvE out of here, for real dude its not even an argument.

Discipline with current state will be 100% stable in every warrior build.

Juba.8406:

Elorna.5329:

They are meant to be desirable properties that make or break builds, and entire trait lines.

dude can you hear yourself ? “Make or Break build” ?! , Dude Fast Hands Make or Break Warrior , and its not a desire it’s a must.

get your PvE out of here, for real dude its not even an argument.

Discipline with current state will be 100% stable in every warrior build.

PvE is the major selling point of this game, and the place that has the majority of players. If you want a fun pvp game, MMO’s aren’t even the proper genre for that.

I am not sure if fast hands and warriors sprint are the traits that should be made baseline, but compared with other classes we got nothing. Mesmer for example got 2 adept, 1 minor, 2 master and even 1 grandmaster as base line. Warrior community should stay united and do like mesmers, QQ so much for buffs that they end up getting them.

Traits that are now baseline:

Ele:
Blasting Staff: Area attacks with staff are larger.

Thief:
+1 Venom additional charges

Guardian:
Consecrated Ground (Consecration skills use ground targeting).
Elite duration increase
Improved Spirit weapon duration

Mesmer:

Reduced glamour recharge rate
Phantasmal damage boost
Manipulation range.
Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well.
Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce.
Protective Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra

Warriors: NOTHING

I still don’t think you guys understand how baselining works… There is no such thing as base-line class perks… All they did was take some traits and work them into their existing abilities in areas where they felt the base was too weak and undeserving of a trait or (Like IP/Grenadier) not having them part of the core abilities felt like bad design.

Fast hands is spoiling the heck out of you guys. It’s such a powerful trait that you think you just deserve it so you can move away from it. That’s not really how it works. If any other class had that trait it would just as much feel “mandatory” because it’s GOOD, not because it doesn’t make sense to the class to be without it.

As for where it is, it’s in the trait tree that has to do with the Warrior’s concept, much like things in Soul Reaping, Tools, Arcana, Trickery which “feel” like they should be baseline just because they are very specific to the definition of the class. Every class has a tree like that. And with a few exceptions (like Ranger’s Beast Mastery) they are practically always of the most popular trait lines to be taken.

Yes, Fast Hands is good. No, you do not NEED it, everyone else can get by without it, so could a warrior. If it’s too strong to possibly ever play without for a master minor, it needs to be nerfed.

Yes I play Warrior, I use warriors in teams I make, yes the trait is one of the best in the game. That doesn’t mean it remotely deserves to be baseline.

@ronpierce: I was going to post something similar to what you posted but you have expressed it better than I ever would have.

Fast hands is critical for pvp and harder content, but making it baseline would be too strong. With the baselining of fast hands, the appeal of not traiting into discipline will be greater than ever as you can spec more offensively, defensively or a very strong balance. Builds like shoutbow would end up even stronger with the new system in place.

Instead of asking of Fast hands as baseline, we could probably look at changing the baseline weapon recharge of warriors to 8 and have Fast hands reduce it further to the 5 seconds we have now. In addition, adding a new minor mechanic to it to make up for the loss. This compromise will still make discipline desirable while giving back a warrior some of the ferocity that Fast hands represents without traiting discipline. This change “might” even make Rune of the Warrior a bit more appealing..

Here, just for an example…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Sleight-of-Hand-Baseline

And no one wants that…

If warriors don’t need fast hands as baseline because it is “too powerful” then mesmers shouldn’t get illusionary persona as baseline because it it even stronger. Double standards as always. Warrior is the class that gets nerf after nerf every patch, while mesmers and rangers Anet’s golden classes are only getting huge buffs.

xDudisx.5914:

If warriors don’t need fast hands as baseline because it is “too powerful” then mesmers shouldn’t get illusionary persona as baseline because it it even stronger. Double standards as always. Warrior is the class that gets nerf after nerf every patch, while mesmers and rangers Anet’s golden classes are only getting huge buffs.

I actually don’t think IP is more powerful, but regardless it is in direct relation to the classes core abilities and they wanted it to be baseline. That doesn’t mean more balance won’t come to nerf it if it becomes too powerful. Regardless “Fast Hands” has nothing to do with the class, it’s just a powerful trait that people have taken advantage of. I think you are GREATLY underestimating the power of having twice as precise access to your skills AND having effectively twice as many sigils as everyone else. That’s not a tiny perk…

Also your “baises and hate Warriors” stuff is meaningless. I’m not biased, I’m just realistic. Warrior and Necro are by FAR my most played classes and Mesmer/Thief are my two lowest…

Of course fast hands is related with the class mechanic. Warriors are the only class whose class mechanic changes completely based on the weapon they are using. For that reason the ability to swap weapons faster and therefore having faster access to our class mechanic is needed. Not only IP is stronger than fast hands but it is also a grandmaster trait. IP is just a minor.

Guardians, rangers, necros, mesmers, thieves, engis and eles have the same F1-4 skills using any weapon. The warrior needs the fast weapon swap to make full use of his class mechanic. Not to mention that we have only F1 while some classes have up to 4. Mesmer will have 5 after the expansion (getting extra F5).

xDudisx.5914:

If warriors don’t need fast hands as baseline because it is “too powerful” then mesmers shouldn’t get illusionary persona as baseline because it it even stronger. Double standards as always. Warrior is the class that gets nerf after nerf every patch, while mesmers and rangers Anet’s golden classes are only getting huge buffs.

I’ll just leave this here.

E-sport mates!

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

k

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

k

It’s a refusal to believe you can function without it (same as Cleansing Ire). It’s one of those traits that feels so nice to have you couldn’t imagine not having it. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

k

It’s a refusal to believe you can function without it (same as Cleansing Ire). It’s one of those traits that feels so nice to have you couldn’t imagine not having it. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

you cannot be successful without it in pvp

so i guess, in pvp, we shouldnt have viable alternative choices?

dont give me that holier then thou pvp doesnt matter crap either

this isnt just for warrior, but any class, they shouldnt have viable alternatives? guess not according to a few people in here.

warrior would need a lot of changes in pvp to be viable without fasthands.

Wolfe.3097:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

k

It’s a refusal to believe you can function without it (same as Cleansing Ire). It’s one of those traits that feels so nice to have you couldn’t imagine not having it. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

you cannot be successful without it in pvp

so i guess, in pvp, we shouldnt have viable alternative choices?

dont give me that holier then thou pvp doesnt matter crap either

this isnt just for warrior, but any class, they shouldnt have viable alternatives? guess not according to a few people in here.

warrior would need a lot of changes in pvp to be viable without fasthands.

A tree has dominance in PvP? No way! That’s not a big deal… Arcana, Soul Reaping, trickery are all basically mandatory for PvP. Not a big deal. You still have 2 other specializations to mix it up with. And yes you can still be somewhat useful in pvp without it. Even now I have made banner condition warriors as S/S+LB that can do decently well without it.

It’s a similar issue with traits like speedy kits and deceptive evasion. Engineers and mesmers will invest in tools and dueling, respectively, primarily so that they can take those traits. The benefits they provide are so impactful that you really notice if your build does not include them. If they moved fast hands from discipline into tactics, a lot of builds would stop taking discipline and move into tactics instead.

I do run one warrior build without fast hands, but I use runes of the warrior to put the weapon swap down to 8s. It’s not as good, but it helps to compensate without requiring me to toss some other trait that I want.

Though sometimes I wonder… if fast hands was never even part of the game to begin with, would people even miss it? Maybe the only reason people actually value it is that a large part of warrior play has evolved with its inclusion, but there would’ve been an entirely different set of standards if it were not even there in the first place.

Even still, if they don’t at least put in some kind of attractive alternative to one of the lines, we’ll probably see a lot of warrior using the discipline specialization come the trait updates.

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

k

It’s a refusal to believe you can function without it (same as Cleansing Ire). It’s one of those traits that feels so nice to have you couldn’t imagine not having it. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

you cannot be successful without it in pvp

so i guess, in pvp, we shouldnt have viable alternative choices?

dont give me that holier then thou pvp doesnt matter crap either

this isnt just for warrior, but any class, they shouldnt have viable alternatives? guess not according to a few people in here.

warrior would need a lot of changes in pvp to be viable without fasthands.

A tree has dominance in PvP? No way! That’s not a big deal… Arcana, Soul Reaping, trickery are all basically mandatory for PvP. Not a big deal. You still have 2 other specializations to mix it up with. And yes you can still be somewhat useful in pvp without it. Even now I have made banner condition warriors as S/S+LB that can do decently well without it.

pretty well doesnt mean squat

your whats wrong with games like this.

you know what fine, delete fast hands, that way warriors can get buffs in other areas

ill go play some other class until then

good to know basically pvp isnt a big deal tho

because there are people that want the warrior to be either one trick ponies or to just generally be nerfed to the ground

Wolfe.3097:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

k

It’s a refusal to believe you can function without it (same as Cleansing Ire). It’s one of those traits that feels so nice to have you couldn’t imagine not having it. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

you cannot be successful without it in pvp

so i guess, in pvp, we shouldnt have viable alternative choices?

dont give me that holier then thou pvp doesnt matter crap either

this isnt just for warrior, but any class, they shouldnt have viable alternatives? guess not according to a few people in here.

warrior would need a lot of changes in pvp to be viable without fasthands.

Alternative builds are nice and would be great, but the way Anet is heading currently seems to be streamlining several popular builds into similar but equally or more powerful versions, with their new elite specializations as the real “lure” for experimentation and diversification.

They try to balance with PvP as their main concern, because of a desire to become an e-sport or something, but what they’re doing is simplifying options and making an already easy to pick up game easier. Which might be a good thing, but I doubt it will do anything for the non-existent “pro” pvp scene. It might, on the other hand, solidify more PvE builds, and open up at least some spots for other professions to enter the dungeon meta. Altho that depends on nerfs to elementalists more than anything else.

Elorna.5329:

Wolfe.3097:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

k

It’s a refusal to believe you can function without it (same as Cleansing Ire). It’s one of those traits that feels so nice to have you couldn’t imagine not having it. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

you cannot be successful without it in pvp

so i guess, in pvp, we shouldnt have viable alternative choices?

dont give me that holier then thou pvp doesnt matter crap either

this isnt just for warrior, but any class, they shouldnt have viable alternatives? guess not according to a few people in here.

warrior would need a lot of changes in pvp to be viable without fasthands.

Alternative builds are nice and would be great, but the way Anet is heading currently seems to be streamlining several popular builds into similar but equally or more powerful versions, with their new elite specializations as the real “lure” for experimentation and diversification.

They try to balance with PvP as their main concern, because of a desire to become an e-sport or something, but what they’re doing is simplifying options and making an already easy to pick up game easier. Which might be a good thing, but I doubt it will do anything for the non-existent “pro” pvp scene. It might, on the other hand, solidify more PvE builds, and open up at least some spots for other professions to enter the dungeon meta. Altho that depends on nerfs to elementalists more than anything else.

so onec again nobody has a choice unless its

choose to spec well

choose to spec for suck

Everyone relies on speed, not just a warrior. One of the main differences is that warrior can currently get a lot of speed, but some of the other professions can’t (i.e. mesmers, necros).

So I don’t really think it’s a good idea to make warrior sprint baseline, although they will need to put some other alternatives outside of discipline (I think there’s a swiftness on hit trait in arms?). I guess there’s always the warhorn for perma swiftness as well.

Fast hands I’m still debating in my head. I don’t think it’s a wholly bad idea, but the only reason warriors value it is because it’s been there since the beginning. I mean, if guardians or thieves had fast hands, I’m sure they’d be wanting it to be made baseline too, as it would have become a “necessary” part of their builds. It’s similar to how speedy kits and deceptive evasion are also “necessary” for most engineer and mesmer builds, respectively, although one can argue that it’s only become “necessary” because it was available as an option in the first place. These options were so good that alternatives may have been never used, and gameplay evolved around these traits being present. Put it simply, if fast hands never existed, would it be missed?

The part of me that feels it should be made baseline feels so because a lot of warrior balance considerations have probably been made in light of that trait being present. It’s similar to how the grenade kit for engineers was always seemingly balanced around having three grenades per toss, and so they decided to make it baseline for the trait updates.

It would just kind of suck if all the warrior builds after the patch were x/defence/discipline.

this is why im enjoying warrior now but will be playing revenant when hot drops (then picking warrior back up down the line)

the future is pretty obvious right now.

there isnt a thing that they can do to replace fast hands without having to make a MULTITUDE of class changes to warrior, wich wont happen all at once.

the elite spec will either go unused, or will be completly bonkers overpowered. regardless there will be no spec diversity.

then, when fast hands is deleted, warriors will become everyones whipping boys in pvp unless again, if the elite is overpowered as all hell.

not looking forward to the mess, but enjoying warrior right now :P

Wolfe.3097:

Elorna.5329:

Wolfe.3097:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

k

It’s a refusal to believe you can function without it (same as Cleansing Ire). It’s one of those traits that feels so nice to have you couldn’t imagine not having it. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

you cannot be successful without it in pvp

so i guess, in pvp, we shouldnt have viable alternative choices?

dont give me that holier then thou pvp doesnt matter crap either

this isnt just for warrior, but any class, they shouldnt have viable alternatives? guess not according to a few people in here.

warrior would need a lot of changes in pvp to be viable without fasthands.

Alternative builds are nice and would be great, but the way Anet is heading currently seems to be streamlining several popular builds into similar but equally or more powerful versions, with their new elite specializations as the real “lure” for experimentation and diversification.

They try to balance with PvP as their main concern, because of a desire to become an e-sport or something, but what they’re doing is simplifying options and making an already easy to pick up game easier. Which might be a good thing, but I doubt it will do anything for the non-existent “pro” pvp scene. It might, on the other hand, solidify more PvE builds, and open up at least some spots for other professions to enter the dungeon meta. Altho that depends on nerfs to elementalists more than anything else.

so onec again nobody has a choice unless its

choose to spec well

choose to spec for suck

I tried to give you an answer keeping in mind what Anet’s intention seems to be. Whether that intention is healthy or not for the game is a different discussion. Even in GW1 that was harder to balance and had a LOT more options, there were several archetypes that ruled the meta in PvP and PvE, most of which remained unchanged over the years.

Elorna.5329:

Wolfe.3097:

Elorna.5329:

Wolfe.3097:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

k

It’s a refusal to believe you can function without it (same as Cleansing Ire). It’s one of those traits that feels so nice to have you couldn’t imagine not having it. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

you cannot be successful without it in pvp

so i guess, in pvp, we shouldnt have viable alternative choices?

dont give me that holier then thou pvp doesnt matter crap either

this isnt just for warrior, but any class, they shouldnt have viable alternatives? guess not according to a few people in here.

warrior would need a lot of changes in pvp to be viable without fasthands.

Alternative builds are nice and would be great, but the way Anet is heading currently seems to be streamlining several popular builds into similar but equally or more powerful versions, with their new elite specializations as the real “lure” for experimentation and diversification.

They try to balance with PvP as their main concern, because of a desire to become an e-sport or something, but what they’re doing is simplifying options and making an already easy to pick up game easier. Which might be a good thing, but I doubt it will do anything for the non-existent “pro” pvp scene. It might, on the other hand, solidify more PvE builds, and open up at least some spots for other professions to enter the dungeon meta. Altho that depends on nerfs to elementalists more than anything else.

so onec again nobody has a choice unless its

choose to spec well

choose to spec for suck

I tried to give you an answer keeping in mind what Anet’s intention seems to be. Whether that intention is healthy or not for the game is a different discussion. Even in GW1 that was harder to balance and had a LOT more options, there were several archetypes that ruled the meta in PvP and PvE, most of which remained unchanged over the years.

you gave me an answer

i summarized

Fast hands will not be baseline as it is the key trait of discipline but instead the default warrior weapon swap cooldown should be reduced to 7 or 8 secs. The reduction will somewhat reduce the drawback of not traiting into discipline.

Discipline is the trait line tied to weapon swapping and as well as a focus on finishing off your target. A 2-3 second faster swap time from a base of 7-8 seconds best represents this.

Revilo G.4352:

Fast hands will not be baseline as it is the key trait of discipline but instead the default warrior weapon swap cooldown should be reduced to 7 or 8 secs. The reduction will somewhat reduce the drawback of not traiting into discipline.

Discipline is the trait line tied to weapon swapping and as well as a focus on finishing off your target. A 2-3 second faster swap time from a base of 7-8 seconds best represents this.

This is what needs to happen.

7-8 second weapon swap has no synergy in any thing at all.

you can already get 8 second weapon swap on any class you wish,
(hint: it’s a rune)
no one is using it cuz it’s 2 second reduce on weapon swap is basically nothing at all.

choucs.4507:

7-8 second weapon swap has no synergy in any thing at all.

you can already get 8 second weapon swap on any class you wish,
(hint: it’s a rune)
no one is using it cuz it’s 2 second reduce on weapon swap is basically nothing at all.

I don’t really think you can just up and claim a 2 second reduction on weapon swap is nothing at all in light of the implications in this thread that seem to claim a 5 second reduction on weapon swap is completely necessary to any relevant form of warrior game play. What’s so special about 5 seconds that isn’t special about 2-3 seconds?

If they did reduce the base weapon swap cooldown time, I only see that really working if they did it for everyone and not warrior’s exclusively. That mechanic is, in general, meant to apply universally (aside from engineers, elementalists, and revenants). It could still potentially have large balance implication even if it were only done to warriors, although I do acknowledge that it would at least serve as some alternative option to fast hands.

im starting to think fast hands while good is ultimately a fun “crutch”.

people want it baseline because of how fun/fluid it makes warriors

people dont want it baseline because of how powerful it is

its used regardless, in almost all specs, there are a few that dont.

so its either

A-too strong, needs removed with will nerf warriors horribly, resulting in a a LOT of compensation to put them on the level. the side effect is warrior will never again get that fun/fluidity back that fast hands gives. many people will stop playing warrior and possibly the game (as people have already stated they only play warrior because of it, they dislike 10 sec cd weapon swaps)

B-made baseline, people will whine as any class would enjoy such a trait/feature.

C-nothing changes, warriors will always go full dicipline just for it until the end of time

D-they put everything else good in the same slot, resulting in everyone picking fast hands and being nerfed into the ground at the same time. warriors will retain that fun/fluidity/lack of choices, but will be worse overall.

pick your poison

ronpierce.2760:

lighter.2708:

ronpierce.2760:

Maybe they should delete fast hands… That’d fix a lot of issues. Compensate elsewhere. Fast hands is literally one of the most OP traits in the entire game. Going as far to ask it as baseline is super selfish. If it’s because of “diversity” then just remove it. (I play warrior pretty frequently, you can’t deny the sheer power this trait has, which is why it’s even being asked as baseline.)

Power creep is already super real, there’s no need for every warrior in the game to have a 5 sec swap. Unless they reduced all swaps to 5, or maybe 8 as a happy medium.

tbh i think they should just remove stealth, boon rip, condition transfer, teleportation, insta cast to be fair and compensate in other ways.

the powercreep is already super real, there’s no need for classes to have unbalanced stuff like these

While I could agree with that, its too late for that. (I disagree with boon rip. It has its place, 2 classes have too much of it). The rest, yeah, but that’s like… 90% of Thief’s design so… they’d have to basically scrap the class. Not going to happen. Thief will always be stupid and poorly designed and thieves will always defend it and cry if it changes, so we have to work in the realm of reality.

what makes you think that it’s not too late for warrior.

every single build has fast hand and it’s been like it since release.

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

Yes its impossible.

i dont think you play warrior, i think you just want warriors locked down in Discipline just like what we have currently.

Juba.8406:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

Yes its impossible.

i dont think you play warrior, i think you just want warriors locked down in Discipline just like what we have currently.

I can prove otherwise… like I said a million times, most of the classes find their class-define tree (5th) to be highly mandatory for pvp. It’s a good perk, but we can’t make every kitten 5th tree baseline. Warriors are in a great spot, except for zerker for a vastly different reason (since there are many reasons why you’d want to go into discipline for dps warriors).

I am against many blind buff requests no matter what I play. Everyone is constantly crying about wanting this and that free and baseline and refuse to consider the consequences. And most of the time they ignore how incredibly lucky they are, hence why I said you’re spoiled by the trait.

ronpierce.2760:

Juba.8406:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

Yes its impossible.

i dont think you play warrior, i think you just want warriors locked down in Discipline just like what we have currently.

I can prove otherwise… like I said a million times, most of the classes find their class-define tree (5th) to be highly mandatory for pvp. It’s a good perk, but we can’t make every kitten 5th tree baseline. Warriors are in a great spot, except for zerker for a vastly different reason (since there are many reasons why you’d want to go into discipline for dps warriors).

I am against many blind buff requests no matter what I play. Everyone is constantly crying about wanting this and that free and baseline and refuse to consider the consequences. And most of the time they ignore how incredibly lucky they are, hence why I said you’re spoiled by the trait.

you can not prove other wise, if you can be successful without it there would be already builds out there without it, but the fact is every single build out there has it, unlike evasive arcana or elemental attunement or clone on dodge or trickery steal which are useless in pve, fast hand is must for all warrior build in gw2

lighter.2708:

ronpierce.2760:

Juba.8406:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

Yes its impossible.

i dont think you play warrior, i think you just want warriors locked down in Discipline just like what we have currently.

I can prove otherwise… like I said a million times, most of the classes find their class-define tree (5th) to be highly mandatory for pvp. It’s a good perk, but we can’t make every kitten 5th tree baseline. Warriors are in a great spot, except for zerker for a vastly different reason (since there are many reasons why you’d want to go into discipline for dps warriors).

I am against many blind buff requests no matter what I play. Everyone is constantly crying about wanting this and that free and baseline and refuse to consider the consequences. And most of the time they ignore how incredibly lucky they are, hence why I said you’re spoiled by the trait.

you can not prove other wise, if you can be successful without it there would be already builds out there without it, but the fact is every single build out there has it, unlike evasive arcana or elemental attunement or clone on dodge or trickery steal which are useless in pve, fast hand is must for all warrior build in gw2

Phalanx builds in PvE don’t use fast hands, and won’t be using it after the trait rework either. After the rework phalanx will pretty much phase out the other gs/axe-mace build that is currently the only meta PvE build using fast hands.

Meta phalanx build is 05063

Elorna.5329:

Phalanx builds in PvE don’t use fast hands, and won’t be using it after the trait rework either. After the rework phalanx will pretty much phase out the other gs/axe-mace build that is currently the only meta PvE build using fast hands.

Both pve meta build use fast hand (65003 for gs/axma and 05063 for phx).
I really begin to think than most of the people in this topic who doesn’t want fast hand baseline doesn’t even play warrior….

Discipline should be a must for warriors anyway since it is the line that directly affects our core mechanic “Adrenaline Burst”. Having fast hands and warrior sprint in there is not really a problem. The problem is we will be forced into 2 trait lines, Discipline and Defense, in order to have a viable build. Severely gimping build variety.

I would say, remove the adrenaline gain from CI and make “gain adrenaline when hit baseline.” That way we aren’t locked into picking defense line in order to effectively use our core mechanic (which got nerfed to kitten in the past year). We are getting some condi cleansing options but I think they just won’t be good enough to compare to CI as long as it has a hold of adrenaline gain.

Another option would be to combine versatile rage and versatile power in GM minor and make" Gain adrenaline when hit" adept minor in discipline. This way we are forced into picking only 1 trait line and greatly increase the amount of viable builds.

Fast hands doesn’t need to be baseline. Warriors should be putting points in Discipline anyway, it directly improves your core mechanic which is "Adrenaline burst ". I would rather make the adrenaline gain from CI baseline.

Since those two traits are practically necessary, Anet actually has three options in order to let other traits be used. Either make them baseline, nerf them, or remove them.

Would be very nice if they were baseline as I like moving fast, but there are other traits that I’d really need.

There is none viable warrior build without fast hands. I dont remember any build in the past That worked without it.
Only this means that warrior skills were made to work with fast hands.
Warrior Sprint was made to help warriors to be close to their targets because that was really needed, before that warriors were easely kited by every other class.
If there are traits that need to be baseline are those ones.

Warrior’s sprint is fine where it is because traveler’s runes.

Fast hands however is a warrior defining trait and needs to be baseline.

We have more weapon selections than any other class and our class skills are completely reliant on weapons.

As a master of all kinds of arms a warrior should be able to quickly swap to the correct weapon for the type of combat they are engaged in faster than any other class.

Julie Yann.5379:

Warriors should be putting points in Discipline anyway, it directly improves your core mechanic which is "Adrenaline burst ".

This is the mentality that the OP wants to steer away from though. If there are trait lines/specializations that “should be” invested into because they have too critical an impact, it could represent a design flaw that kills off possible build variety an variation.

Now I’m not convinced making fast hands baseline is the proper solution either, but if it’s simply too difficult to be viable without it, then maybe it should be made baseline. That way people could play around with other build options without having to lose something that’s core to their profession’s viability/effectiveness.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Julie Yann.5379:

Warriors should be putting points in Discipline anyway, it directly improves your core mechanic which is "Adrenaline burst ".

This is the mentality that the OP wants to steer away from though. If there are trait lines/specializations that “should be” invested into because they have too critical an impact, it could represent a design flaw that kills off possible build variety an variation.

Now I’m not convinced making fast hands baseline is the proper solution either, but if it’s simply too difficult to be viable without it, then maybe it should be made baseline. That way people could play around with other build options without having to lose something that’s core to their profession’s viability/effectiveness.

I don’t think fast hands is the solution. Every class has a goto trait line that will need to be picked. The problem we have with warrior is that we have 2 must have traitlines that need to be spec’d in. Defense and Discipline. Discipline improves the very core of our profession and benefits DPS and Tanks alike.

The only real reason people spec in defense is the adrenaline gain from Cleansing Ire and the defense line only really benefits the tanks. We are getting some decent condi removal and healing options which make cleansing ire less of a must have in that regard but the fact that it grants a huge amount of adrenaline in combat will mean warriors will still be going to it for their adrenaline fix. We will still be forced into 2 trait lines.

2 options can fix this. Remove Adrenaline gain from CI and make it baseline (I prefer this one) or combine versatile rage and versatile power into the grandmaster minor and move that adrenaline gain “Embrace Pain” into discipline adept minor.

Julie Yann.5379:

Yamsandjams.3267:

Julie Yann.5379:

Warriors should be putting points in Discipline anyway, it directly improves your core mechanic which is "Adrenaline burst ".

This is the mentality that the OP wants to steer away from though. If there are trait lines/specializations that “should be” invested into because they have too critical an impact, it could represent a design flaw that kills off possible build variety an variation.

Now I’m not convinced making fast hands baseline is the proper solution either, but if it’s simply too difficult to be viable without it, then maybe it should be made baseline. That way people could play around with other build options without having to lose something that’s core to their profession’s viability/effectiveness.

I don’t think fast hands is the solution. Every class has a goto trait line that will need to be picked. The problem we have with warrior is that we have 2 must have traitlines that need to be spec’d in. Defense and Discipline. Discipline improves the very core of our profession and benefits DPS and Tanks alike.

The only real reason people spec in defense is the adrenaline gain from Cleansing Ire and the defense line only really benefits the tanks. We are getting some decent condi removal and healing options which make cleansing ire less of a must have in that regard but the fact that it grants a huge amount of adrenaline in combat will mean warriors will still be going to it for their adrenaline fix. We will still be forced into 2 trait lines.

2 options can fix this. Remove Adrenaline gain from CI and make it baseline (I prefer this one) or combine versatile rage and versatile power into the grandmaster minor and move that adrenaline gain “Embrace Pain” into discipline adept minor.

That’s an entirely different issue discussed in a different thread though. Doing something about CI doesn’t solve the potential issues of being pigeonholed into discipline.

Ideally, no profession should have a “goto” traitline. These directly prohibit build diversity. If a certain skill or trait is so vital that every build needs to use it to be viable, I think that forms a good basis for an argument to make it baseline functionality.

I guess there’s something to be said about taking things one step at a time, but I don’t think it’s a good situation for a player to feel forced into a certain trait line/specialization, whether it’s discipline, defence, or anything else.

The tricky bit with fast hands is that there’s just no true alternatives, outside of perhaps the warrior runes. I’m not convinced that making it baseline is the proper way to go either, but there’s numerous builds that go 3 into discipline for no other reason than to get fast hands (although warrior’s sprint and mobile strikes can be nice pick ups as well). They either need some alternative means of acquiring similar functionality, some sort of tradeoff that is truly worthwhile, or the trait needs to be made baseline in order to stop the necessity of investing in discipline.

I, for one, would like to see some kind of strength/arms/tactics build that is good at… something. What? I don’t know. But something.