Guild Wars 2

Yamsandjams.3267:

The tricky bit with fast hands is that there’s just no true alternatives, outside of perhaps the warrior runes. I’m not convinced that making it baseline is the proper way to go either, but there’s numerous builds that go 3 into discipline for no other reason than to get fast hands (although warrior’s sprint and mobile strikes can be nice pick ups as well). They either need some alternative means of acquiring similar functionality, some sort of tradeoff that is truly worthwhile, or the trait needs to be made baseline in order to stop the necessity of investing in discipline.

I, for one, would like to see some kind of strength/arms/tactics build that is good at… something. What? I don’t know. But something.

I don’t mind having to spec in discipline for reason stated above but I can see why some people wouldn’t want to.

Maybe making both fast hands and “embrace pain” baseline is the solution we are looking for. Would possibly even allow for a strength/arms/tactics build to be useful for something.

They should just reduce weapon swap to 5 sec across the board.

ronpierce.2760:

They should just reduce weapon swap to 5 sec across the board.

and warriors get 1s swap ?! ok fine by me.

ronpierce.2760:

Juba.8406:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

Yes its impossible.

i dont think you play warrior, i think you just want warriors locked down in Discipline just like what we have currently.

I can prove otherwise…

still waiting for that prove.

Juba.8406:

ronpierce.2760:

Juba.8406:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

Yes its impossible.

i dont think you play warrior, i think you just want warriors locked down in Discipline just like what we have currently.

I can prove otherwise…

still waiting for that prove.

There, second most played (By FAR) is Warrior, Champ Legionnaire, PVE main.

While you’re having you’re pitty party, I’m not saying Fasthands isn’t great or even in some cases completely necessary. I’m saying that’d be the case for ANY class with this trait and it’s incredibly OP as a minor trait, you should consider yourself lucky rather than crying to make everything baseline. If everything went baseline that people felt was a staple they’d have to make Sleight of Hands, Elemental Attunements, Vital Persistence (+Foot in the Grave), and so on, baseline. These traits in PVP essentially end up feeling mandatory (minus foot in the grave only because the DPS loss with DP is way too high and without it, necro wouldn’t be a threat).

I just find it sad that people have one of the best gifts in the game and still manage to find a reason to complain about it. Warrior has a #1 use in PVE, WvW, and sPVP, the class is freaking great. And even if FH went baseline many of these builds would still go into Discipline because of Burst Mastery or otherwise.

You’re asking for a buff and covering it up with a buzzword “diversity” just because it increases your odds of getting your buff. Sometimes things are just too good to let go, but that doesn’t mean the base-line needs a huge buff… EVERYONE wants fast hands, you’d think you’d take some enjoyment in having it… You’re acting like the kids who complain when they get only 1 of the 2 $1,000 dollar presents they wanted for Christmas…

Any other class would give up literally ANY trait to have Fast Hands as a choice. You can’t have it for baseline. Sorry.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Any other class would give up literally ANY trait to have Fast Hands as a choice. You can’t have it for baseline. Sorry.

Any other class? Engis only use 1 weapon and pretty much have 0s weapon swap cooldown using kits if you count them as a weapon.

Yeah, don’t count those as a weapon, because they are not a weapon. Warrior asking for Fast Hands as a baseline is the same as Engineer asking for speedy kits as a baseline, its OP and a mechanic that is far too powerful for a class to get without investment. The reason Fast Hands is warrior defining and mandatory is because it is super powerful. Please stop QQing about other classes when Warrior is already insanely good at everything they put their (fast) hand to.

Ilusionary persona was arguably one of the best grandmaster traits that mesmer had and it is becoming baseline without any investment. Rangers are getting longbow velocity grandmaster trait as baseline. Engi is getting the extra third grenade from the grandmaster grenadier as baseline. Thief is getting the grandmaster residual venom as baseline. While mesmer gets 6 traits as baseline warrior gets nothing. I don’t even main warrior anymore but the update to the trait system is really unfair to the warrior class.

xDudisx.5914:

Ilusionary persona was arguably one of the best grandmaster traits that mesmer had and it is becoming baseline without any investment. Rangers are getting longbow velocity grandmaster trait as baseline. Engi is getting the extra third grenade from the grandmaster grenadier as baseline. Thief is getting the grandmaster residual venom as baseline. While mesmer gets 6 traits as baseline warrior gets nothing. I don’t even main warrior anymore but the update to the trait system is really unfair to the warrior class.

And you don’t see ANY difference between the things made baseline and… fast hands…? Some classes also needed more help than others… It wasn’t christmas from mom, it didn’t have to be equal, warriors are already doing fine in every part of the game…

Fast hands and versatile rage should be baseline imo. We can find ways around warriors sprint. Everyone who plays warrior competitively will take these two minors no matter what.

xDudisx.5914:

Ilusionary persona was arguably one of the best grandmaster traits that mesmer had and it is becoming baseline without any investment. Rangers are getting longbow velocity grandmaster trait as baseline. Engi is getting the extra third grenade from the grandmaster grenadier as baseline. Thief is getting the grandmaster residual venom as baseline. While mesmer gets 6 traits as baseline warrior gets nothing. I don’t even main warrior anymore but the update to the trait system is really unfair to the warrior class.

Are you serious? Illusionary Persona? If that is one of the best traits that Mesmer has, they OBVIOUSLY need a lot of work to be anything close to Warrior. Ranger LB without velocity can’t hit anything (you can just press A-D-A-D-A-D to avoid it) as the projectiles are far too slow, that’s why you never saw LB rangers anywhere before RtW came in, even now it is an easy build to counter. Base was required so as to not be terrible. Engi grenades without the 3rd grenade are terrible, needed to be made baseline, the 3rd grenade does like 50% less damage and they got a range nerf at the same time. Residual Venom as a baseline is less needed, but hardly game breaking, there are not a lot of venom thieves around and those that do are giving up a lot to do so.

The point is, Warrior is already in a great place, giving FH as a base is just absurd, you can’t have one class that gets half CD on weapon swaps compared to everyone else and then give them another minor trait in disc they can have too. You guys already got Spiked Armor as a minor in Defense and that is incredibly powerful. Warrior has a place in every game mode, the other classes you mention do not. Ranger = Outcast everywhere. Engineer = Outcast everywhere. Mesmer = Outcast everywhere. Except for roaming WvW, they are all good there. Warrior can do everything already and needs no more baseline. You guys got 3300 additional health as a baseline above those classes.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

The point is, Warrior is already in a great place, giving FH as a base is just absurd, you can’t have one class that gets half CD on weapon swaps compared to everyone else and then give them another minor trait in disc they can have too. You guys already got Spiked Armor as a minor in Defense and that is incredibly powerful. Warrior has a place in every game mode, the other classes you mention do not. Ranger = Outcast everywhere. Engineer = Outcast everywhere. Mesmer = Outcast everywhere. Except for roaming WvW, they are all good there. Warrior can do everything already and needs no more baseline. You guys got 3300 additional health as a baseline above those classes.

1. What is a good spot right now doesn’t matter with the huge revamps to every class. The meta will shift all over the place, all people can do is be pre-emptive irrespective of profession.

2. Spiked armor isn’t incredibly powerful which is why rarely any warrior takes it. If you want to discuss powerful traits in the defense line which get taken in it’s place, warriors take Defy Pain in 1v1 Scenarios especially the now popular 2/0/6/0/6. Or Merciless Hammer a major trait when running hammer for obvious reasons. Spiked armor is very rare.

3. The classes you mentioned do have places. Ranger is quite popular in roaming/WvW they can be found very easily. In Spvp in low to mid tier play Pew Pew longbow ranger is very popular and I have heard it has creeped into some higher tier tournament play. EDIT: I forgot to add that Rangers are a very popular choice in all facets of PvE (hence the bearbow and knocking back enemies trope), and are a very popular choice for beginners of the game due to their innate passive effectiveness in said game mode.

You’re obviously wrong about Engineer, badly so. In WvW they roam Condi a lot, though granted I don’t think they are as often as some other classes. In Spvp their position is cement atm, and they are part of the big Cele meta setup on a lot of teams so I have no idea how you can even call them an outcast when they are one of the strongest and most popular PvP classes. Evidently you don’t PvP. In PvE they are very viable, and arguably can and do get used a lot because they have good damage and great Vuln stacking as well as a fair share of blast finishers if used effectively. I believe they were ranked 3rd in Single target Damage after Thief and Ele a few months back for optimum group setup. I doubt their position has shifted much in this ranking.

Mesmers granted are questionably popular in PvE. Their utility is undeniable, but I do hear a lot of mesmers complain they feel outcast here. In WvW they are one of the mainstays for utility and amazingly useful in group fights and zerg fights still. OF course lets not forget portal sneaking and capping under the nose of the enemy. In Spvp their relationship is love/hate. They seem to fluctuate in popularity as far as I can tell.

So as you can see none of these classes are objectively outcast all over the place.

4. Baseline stats mean little passed beginner and PvE. This is evident from the fact that many classes with lower stats and hp pools do in fact beat Warriors in any game mode. This whole ‘Warriors have moar stats so OP hurp’ thing needs to stop. I’m sure a lot of warriors would give up hp+armor for reliable protection up time, sustainable active game-play and invulnerability. These things are just more useful in practice.

In regards to OP, Fast hands being baseline works thematically though even on Warrior I’d feel it could be a bit much but I don’t know, I’d think it was worth a test run.

And I think warrior’s sprint is unnecessary because it is being combined with Mobile Strikes. 2 of my favourite traits.

ronpierce.2760:

Juba.8406:

ronpierce.2760:

Juba.8406:

ronpierce.2760:

Wolfe.3097:

so what i gather, is we shouldnt have viable alternative choices in builds?

But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be successful without.

Yes its impossible.

i dont think you play warrior, i think you just want warriors locked down in Discipline just like what we have currently.

I can prove otherwise…

still waiting for that prove.

There, second most played (By FAR) is Warrior, Champ Legionnaire, PVE main.

While you’re having you’re pitty party, I’m not saying Fasthands isn’t great or even in some cases completely necessary. I’m saying that’d be the case for ANY class with this trait and it’s incredibly OP as a minor trait, you should consider yourself lucky rather than crying to make everything baseline. If everything went baseline that people felt was a staple they’d have to make Sleight of Hands, Elemental Attunements, Vital Persistence (+Foot in the Grave), and so on, baseline. These traits in PVP essentially end up feeling mandatory (minus foot in the grave only because the DPS loss with DP is way too high and without it, necro wouldn’t be a threat).

I just find it sad that people have one of the best gifts in the game and still manage to find a reason to complain about it. Warrior has a #1 use in PVE, WvW, and sPVP, the class is freaking great. And even if FH went baseline many of these builds would still go into Discipline because of Burst Mastery or otherwise.

You’re asking for a buff and covering it up with a buzzword “diversity” just because it increases your odds of getting your buff. Sometimes things are just too good to let go, but that doesn’t mean the base-line needs a huge buff… EVERYONE wants fast hands, you’d think you’d take some enjoyment in having it… You’re acting like the kids who complain when they get only 1 of the 2 $1,000 dollar presents they wanted for Christmas…

It’s the same principle that minor traits should no longer be weaker, they should play the role for traits that are essential for that trait line, where choice is redundant or neutralizes the purpose of the trait line. So ppl complaining about minors being too powerful, cuz they’re minors, is just stupid, they should be the strong ones imo.
One step further, fast hands which is essential for WARRIORS should be made baseline, or they make the choice redundant as well, everyone will go discipline. If fast hands is made baseline, there will be far more build diversity (in pvp/wvw mainly). 6 6 6 0 0 ?.
So yeah, fast hands should be made baseline, it opens up far more build diversity. You can say that a “minor” is too strong to be made baseline, but since everyone will go in discipline anyways to get fast hands, so the only thing that we’ll “gain” in buff is 1 minor trait (to be replaced in fast hand’s place). Wich also can be worked around, that’s why it’s called balancing. Or not, cuz remember that everyone’s getting buffed, not just warr…
It’s not nessecarily a “buff” in that manner, u get 1 more trait (balancing! – or not, that might actually be part of the balancing), which also opens up far more build diversity.
But it’s not overpowered as a “minor” in the games current pre-buff state

this whole entire thread is golden.

Fast hands is one of the most powerful trait in the game. Bet lot of the rangers want to change the whole pet thing for that single trait.
In this game everyboy have the same base speed what is good.
In gw1 you got adrenalin if enemy hit you but based % of the health you lost. If i remember correctly 15-20% health was 1 hit of adrenalin.

Warriors have the best invul/evaid/block uptime in the game. Utility+heal stance, traited invul (and you can trait stances for more uptime), 5sec weapon swap for energy sigil, shield, gs evaid.

McWolfy.5924:

Warriors have the best invul/evaid/block uptime in the game. Utility+heal stance, traited invul (and you can trait stances for more uptime), 5sec weapon swap for energy sigil, shield, gs evaid.

Endure pain isn’t Invul. That is why I specified Invulnerability. You can’t apply condies or CCs when Invulnerable.

You can mimick this effect if you Pop Berserker stance, Endure pain and Balance stance at once.

That is probably the dumbest thing any warrior can do though.

Heal Stance = Can be CC’d and locked down, so still not truly invulnerable.

Energy sigil isnt a class mechanic, and Dodge isn’t either, it is a general mechanic for all to use, so don’t use that as an example.

Shield block can be broken by being pulled by magnet, not invulnerable.

GS Evade is the closest thing we have to a class mechanic Invul.

Negating damage=/= Invulnerability.

I wrote in the bold:

PistolWhip.2697:

1. What is a good spot right now doesn’t matter with the huge revamps to every class. The meta will shift all over the place, all people can do is be pre-emptive irrespective of profession.
War will still be in the top 3

2. Spiked armor isn’t incredibly powerful which is why rarely any warrior takes it.

• It IS incredibly powerful in a minor slot. It doesn’t get taken now because it is competing with Defy, as you said. To give it out as a minor is fantastically OP.*

3. So as you can see none of these classes are objectively outcast all over the place.
You obviously didnt read that I stated they are good at roaming. None have a position in ANY meta outside of that.

As a Ranger main, I can say the changes we got are very good, but I would give those changes just to get a GM trait the same as Fast Hands, its incredible. Anyone asking for it to be made baseline literally cares nothing about balance.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I wrote in the bold:

PistolWhip.2697:

1. What is a good spot right now doesn’t matter with the huge revamps to every class. The meta will shift all over the place, all people can do is be pre-emptive irrespective of profession.
War will still be in the top 3

2. Spiked armor isn’t incredibly powerful which is why rarely any warrior takes it.

• It IS incredibly powerful in a minor slot. It doesn’t get taken now because it is competing with Defy, as you said. To give it out as a minor is fantastically OP.*

3. So as you can see none of these classes are objectively outcast all over the place.
You obviously didnt read that I stated they are good at roaming. None have a position in ANY meta outside of that.

As a Ranger main, I can say the changes we got are very good, but I would give those changes just to get a GM trait the same as Fast Hands, its incredible. Anyone asking for it to be made baseline literally cares nothing about balance.

If you honestly don’t think engineer has a position in the SPvP meta you don’t pvp, they are one of the best things to happen to the game mode alongside the Cele trifecta right now…

Lmao…. You must be trolling me.

Hi,

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

As a Ranger main, I can say the changes we got are very good, but I would give those changes just to get a GM trait the same as Fast Hands, its incredible. Anyone asking for it to be made baseline literally cares nothing about balance.

Arguing about balance is indeed the thing to do, but I don’t think anyone besides ArenaNet can do a proper analysis of the subject, given the impossible equivalences to be established between class mechanics and synergies. Theory can be performed to a certain extent, but I’d say that real simulation would be needed as well.

Anyway, the warrior is often criticized for having too much of:

• High starting toughness and vitality,
• Partial invulnerabilities to physical damage or condition damage,
• Might, Fury, Stability, Endurance regeneration and Swiftness,
• Bleeding, Crippled, Vulnerability and Weakness,
• Hard control (if we build for it),
• Mobility (if we build for it),
• Condition dispel (if we build for it),
• Blocks (if we build for it),
• Stun breakers,
• Combo finishers,
• Fast weapons rotations, but only when investing at least 3 points into Discipline.

However, most warrior-haters tend to forget that the warrior has:

• A simplified class mechanics that only brings one new weapon skill per weapon set,
• No stealth,
• No teleport,
• No AI,
• Telegraphed Attacks,
• No condition transfer,
• No boon removal,
• No Chilled, No Poison,
• Limited access to Blind, Fear, Confusion, Torment (1 skill),
• Limited access to Burning and Immobilize (2 skills),
• No Aegis, no Protection,
• Limited access to Regeneration and Retaliation (1 trait),
• 1 combo field (and fire at that, so only giving might and burn),

So yes, Fast Hands is incredible. But while I’m pretty positive that Cleansing Ire (as currently built) and Warrior’s Sprint should not be baseline, I don’t have any definite opinion about Fast Hands. Warrior is my main, but I’ve tried all 8 classes (and regularly play mesmer, thief and elem). When I actually see how buffed some other classes have become, and try to estimate the resulting overall class balance, then I believe making Fast Hands baseline wouldn’t be unreasonable at all.

Regards.

McWolfy.5924:

Warriors have the best invul/evaid/block uptime in the game. Utility+heal stance, traited invul (and you can trait stances for more uptime), 5sec weapon swap for energy sigil, shield, gs evaid.

best Invul uptime – Warriors dont have a single invul skill.
best Evaid uptime – Thief ( warrior is not even close)
Best block uptime – engi or guard.

Energy sigil have a CD and it works better with 10 sec CD (as a warrior you can miss the CD and not proc it)

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I wrote in the bold:

PistolWhip.2697:

1. What is a good spot right now doesn’t matter with the huge revamps to every class. The meta will shift all over the place, all people can do is be pre-emptive irrespective of profession.
War will still be in the top 3

2. Spiked armor isn’t incredibly powerful which is why rarely any warrior takes it.

• It IS incredibly powerful in a minor slot. It doesn’t get taken now because it is competing with Defy, as you said. To give it out as a minor is fantastically OP.*

3. So as you can see none of these classes are objectively outcast all over the place.
You obviously didnt read that I stated they are good at roaming. None have a position in ANY meta outside of that.

As a Ranger main, I can say the changes we got are very good, but I would give those changes just to get a GM trait the same as Fast Hands, its incredible. Anyone asking for it to be made baseline literally cares nothing about balance.

I’ll just copy this to anyone who’s stupid enough to claim warr should not have fast hands made baseline:

It’s the same principle that minor traits should no longer be weaker, they should play the role for traits that are essential for that trait line, where choice is redundant or neutralizes the purpose of the trait line. So ppl complaining about minors being too powerful, cuz they’re minors, is just stupid, they should be the strong ones imo.
One step further, fast hands which is essential for WARRIORS should be made baseline, or they make the choice redundant as well, everyone will go discipline. If fast hands is made baseline, there will be far more build diversity (in pvp/wvw mainly). 6 6 6 0 0 ?.
So yeah, fast hands should be made baseline, it opens up far more build diversity. You can say that a “minor” is too strong to be made baseline, but since everyone will go in discipline anyways to get fast hands, so the only thing that we’ll “gain” in buff is 1 minor trait (to be replaced in fast hand’s place). Wich also can be worked around, that’s why it’s called balancing. Or not, cuz remember that everyone’s getting buffed, not just warr…
It’s not nessecarily a “buff” in that manner, u get 1 more trait (balancing! – or not, that might actually be part of the balancing), which also opens up far more build diversity.
But it’s not overpowered as a “minor” in the games current pre-buff state

HoT isn’t even out and the hate vs warriors already started… aside from shoutbow spec, warrior atm is useless…that being said shoutbow is boring as kitten…..imo buff warrior bigtime and make all these mentioned traits baseline….just look at what others are getting….stop the hate…just because you don’t want to play the warrior, doesn’t mean you should ruin the fun for those who do. ps. warrior hsn’t been OP in forever stop using that as an arguement…that’s so 2k13. ps. I’m not talking about pve for pve is secundair to how game mechanics should work (or have their own tooltip descriptions on how skills etc function) in my honest opinion. also cleansing ire isn’t extremely powerfull…and not even very reliable except on LB, all warrior burst attacks are easily predicted and evaded and therefore cleansing ire isn’t extremely powerfull but a necessity (or whatever you spell it)

most people arguing are just so d*****b.

i dear them try to play any warrior build that is not shoutbow

and ill play any build any class you request.

that’s how easy other classes are, i don’t even play them and i’ll beat you.

shoot me a message in forum if you are down for that, if not, then shutthexup

Obindo.6802:

One step further, fast hands which is essential for WARRIORS should be made baseline, or they make the choice redundant as well, everyone will go discipline. If fast hands is made baseline, there will be far more build diversity (in pvp/wvw mainly). 6 6 6 0 0 ?.

It is a good trait, that’s why you want to take it. Wilderness Knowledge for Rangers is a good trait too, why shouldn’t it be made baseline? As it is, we have to go into WS to get it, so instead, make it baseline so there is more build diversity…

Can you please explain why fast hands is essential for warriors?

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Obindo.6802:

One step further, fast hands which is essential for WARRIORS should be made baseline, or they make the choice redundant as well, everyone will go discipline. If fast hands is made baseline, there will be far more build diversity (in pvp/wvw mainly). 6 6 6 0 0 ?.

It is a good trait, that’s why you want to take it. Wilderness Knowledge for Rangers is a good trait too, why shouldn’t it be made baseline? As it is, we have to go into WS to get it, so instead, make it baseline so there is more build diversity…

Can you please explain why fast hands is essential for warriors?

warrior hater detected…have you read what the ranger is getting? I guess not….cause if you would have you would be totally content with this… and if you need explanation to why wars need it then ill just assume youre new to pvp or gw2 in general

Great discuss going on here as it can be simplified as i’f you don’t think fast hands should be baseline you hate warrior’

Not exactly a good way to persuade others to agree, try clearly stating reasons for the change along with some discussion of possible issues that could come from such a change.

I had already gave up on this discussion as soon as it turned into “You hate this idea? You hate warrior and never played one” regardless of me proving otherwise. This thread is sad and selfish. Best trait in the game and still finds a way to get upset about it. Another warrior disagrees? He hates warriors and never played one… SMH… :/

ronpierce.2760:

I had already gave up on this discussion as soon as it turned into “You hate this idea? You hate warrior and never played one” regardless of me proving otherwise. This thread is sad and selfish. Best trait in the game and still finds a way to get upset about it. Another warrior disagrees? He hates warriors and never played one… SMH… :/

nice escape….not. ok, then name a trait of the warrior that doesnt lock us into one trait line and defines the warri and should be baseline….all you guys do is say no no no no no, come up with something usefull instead of say no and act like a beaten dog when youre being called out

You are only “locked” into a specialization is you come up with an arbitrary rule in your head that says you’re “locked” into it.

If you look at the classes with multiple traits made baseline:

• Those are classes that aren’t dominant in all 3 metas
• Those traits were so build-defining (e.g. Illusionary Persona) that it was hampering build diversity

Fast Hands is not build-defining. It is an awesome luxury. Comparing 5s reduced cooldown on weapon swap to a Mesmer shattering around their self in addition to around their clones is silly.

• Shatters are a class mechanic
• Shatters are suffering in all game modes due to the fragile nature of illusions

Can the same arguments be made for being in a given weapon set for the same duration as other classes? I don’t think so.

Sebrent.3625:

You are only “locked” into a specialization is you come up with an arbitrary rule in your head that says you’re “locked” into it.

If you look at the classes with multiple traits made baseline:

• Those are classes that aren’t dominant in all 3 metas
• Those traits were so build-defining (e.g. Illusionary Persona) that it was hampering build diversity

Fast Hands is not build-defining. It is an awesome luxury. Comparing 5s reduced cooldown on weapon swap to a Mesmer shattering around their self in addition to around their clones is silly.

• Shatters are a class mechanic
• Shatters are suffering in all game modes due to the fragile nature of illusions

Can the same arguments be made for being in a given weapon set for the same duration as other classes? I don’t think so.

and thats why warrior has no stealth no teleports (with stunbreaks) no clones or phantams ikr. lol you use nice words yet lack full understanding. ps you still haven’t replied in a conssructive manner…just in ways wich you deny any of the proposals made. now what would be warri defining and actually usefull as baseline then….so far it has been nothing no no no and its way to OP….. cause atm people are like…either an OP as kitten yet boring shoutbow…or a useless build even in semi competitive play so having it a baseline would be a warri defining and unique thing and allow for different builds…just warris will have the wep swap cause its no longer part of a build anymore but… w8 for it, a warrior defining game mechanic….ikr ikr, and lol shatters suffers…omg pls just pls I see shatter mesmers burst harder and more consistent then any other class out there

Just explain why it is essential to Warrior. Any reason you come up with can as easily be applied to any other class. It is an incredibly powerful trait and should not be baseline. You have a trait that makes your weapon swaps recharge in HALF the time, its amazing, be grateful it exists at all!

Warrior doesn’t need stealth, or teleports or clones. Instead of those things, you have the most health, heavy armor, awesome mobility, Cleaning Ire/Brawlers Recovery and things like Endure/Defy Pain, Last Stand, Berserkers/Defiant Stance etc.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Just explain why it is essential to Warrior. Any reason you come up with can as easily be applied to any other class. It is an incredibly powerful trait and should not be baseline. You have a trait that makes your weapon swaps recharge in HALF the time, its amazing, be grateful it exists at all!

Warrior doesn’t need stealth, or teleports or clones. Instead of those things, you have the most health, heavy armor, awesome mobility, Cleaning Ire/Brawlers Recovery and things like Endure/Defy Pain, Last Stand, Berserkers/Defiant Stance etc.

Stances sucks, we have no good utility generally… high hp and armor is far inferior to stealth, port invuln, if u disagree I rofl hard at you…

Warrior needs fast hands because of our weapon skills, they’re short physical abilities that let combos with other weapons, best example would be skullcrack…

It’s the same principle that minor traits should no longer be weaker, they should play the role for traits that are essential for that trait line, where choice is redundant or neutralizes the purpose of the trait line. So ppl complaining about minors being too powerful, cuz they’re minors, is just stupid, they should be the strong ones imo.
One step further, fast hands which is essential for WARRIORS should be made baseline, or they make the choice redundant as well, everyone will go discipline. If fast hands is made baseline, there will be far more build diversity (in pvp/wvw mainly). 6 6 6 0 0 ?.
So yeah, fast hands should be made baseline, it opens up far more build diversity. You can say that a “minor” is too strong to be made baseline, but since everyone will go in discipline anyways to get fast hands, so the only thing that we’ll “gain” in buff is 1 minor trait (to be replaced in fast hand’s place). Wich also can be worked around, that’s why it’s called balancing. Or not, cuz remember that everyone’s getting buffed, not just warr…
It’s not nessecarily a “buff” in that manner, u get 1 more trait (balancing! – or not, that might actually be part of the balancing), which also opens up far more build diversity.
But it’s not overpowered as a “minor” in the games current pre-buff state

Maybe u wanna get this one more time Or u might be mentally disabled.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Just explain why it is essential to Warrior. Any reason you come up with can as easily be applied to any other class. It is an incredibly powerful trait and should not be baseline.

Because Warriors are masters of weaponry ?

Because Warriors are 80% melee class ?

Because Warriors got no AI ?

Because Warriors got no stealth, teleports, instant cast attacks, protection, regeneration, aegis, perma evades or combo fields ?

Because leaving Fast Hands as its now means every warrior will have to trait Discipline ?

Because Warriors got 00000000.00 ZERO Baseline traits ?

hmmmm lets see what others got :

Thief
Traits that are now baseline:

• +1 Venom additional charges.

Guardian
Traits that are now baseline:

• Consecrated Ground (Consecration skills use ground targeting).
• Elite duration increase.
• Improved Spirit weapon duration.

Mesmer
Traits that are now baseline:

• Reduced glamour recharge rate.
• Phantasmal damage boost.
• Manipulation range.
• Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well.
• Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce.
• Protective Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra

Necromancer
Traits that are now baseline:

• Wells uses ground targeting.
• Minion recharge reduction.
• Focus weapon range increases.

Ranger
Traits that are now baseline:

• Longbow velocity increase and range increase.
• 75% trigger rate on spirits.
• Grant fury on use of Survival skills.

ronpierce.2760:

Juba.8406:

ronpierce.2760:

I can prove otherwise…

still waiting for that prove.

PVE main.

Well that proved a lot but not the kind of proof i wanted.

You failed to give us a working build without “Fast Hands”.

Sebrent.3625:

Fast Hands is not build-defining. It is an awesome luxury. Comparing 5s reduced cooldown on weapon swap to a Mesmer shattering around their self in addition to around their clones is silly.

Yeah its a luxery, but when mesmers get 6 Baseline traits then its OK, right ?

And on top of that they get chronomancer OP Aids line and that trait OMG “Times Marches On” Dogged March + Warrior Sprint in one trait as Minor ??!!!

give me a break dude, like mesmer needed a buff.

It’s called balancing. When a class is as good as Warrior, it didn’t need any baseline traits added, because its already in a good place, more so with the HoT trait updates. All those baseline traits that were added were balances to bring those classes UP to where Warrior already is.

Mesmer really needed a speed buff, they are slower than Guards, nothing is as mobile as Warrior.

You don’t have to take Discipline. Fast Hands is such a good trait that you automatically want it and the other traits in the line are good too, so you choose that line. What is the problem? You have to actually make a choice between really good traits? What is the reason you have to have it? It is THAT good. Which is also the reason it shouldn’t be baseline.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

It’s called balancing. When a class is as good as Warrior, it didn’t need any baseline traits added, because its already in a good place, more so with the HoT trait updates. All those baseline traits that were added were balances to bring those classes UP to where Warrior already is.

Mesmer really needed a speed buff, they are slower than Guards, nothing is as mobile as Warrior.

You don’t have to take Discipline. Fast Hands is such a good trait that you automatically want it and the other traits in the line are good too, so you choose that line. What is the problem? You have to actually make a choice between really good traits? What is the reason you have to have it? It is THAT good. Which is also the reason it shouldn’t be baseline.

Warrior is arguably the weakest class in the game atm, often, vs good players, we’d just be target dummies

Here it comes again, maybe u can understand for once but seems you are unable to understand, so u probably won’t. That’s okay, more laughter 4 me

It’s the same principle that minor traits should no longer be weaker, they should play the role for traits that are essential for that trait line, where choice is redundant or neutralizes the purpose of the trait line. So ppl complaining about minors being too powerful, cuz they’re minors, is just stupid, they should be the strong ones imo.
One step further, fast hands which is essential for WARRIORS should be made baseline, or they make the choice redundant as well, everyone will go discipline. If fast hands is made baseline, there will be far more build diversity (in pvp/wvw mainly). 6 6 6 0 0 ?.
So yeah, fast hands should be made baseline, it opens up far more build diversity. You can say that a “minor” is too strong to be made baseline, but since everyone will go in discipline anyways to get fast hands, so the only thing that we’ll “gain” in buff is 1 minor trait (to be replaced in fast hand’s place). Wich also can be worked around, that’s why it’s called balancing. Or not, cuz remember that everyone’s getting buffed, not just warr…
It’s not nessecarily a “buff” in that manner, u get 1 more trait (balancing! – or not, that might actually be part of the balancing), which also opens up far more build diversity.
But it’s not overpowered as a “minor” in the games current pre-buff state

While fasthands has is a great trait to have it is not essential. It is just so good that you can’t see yourself not using it but a build can definitely work without it.

What is essential; to all warriors? Adrenaline. Without it we are not warriors. If you truly want build diversity you should be asking for “Embrace Pain” as baseline. Cleansing Ire will still be very good with it and warriors will not be forced to got into the defense line just to get good adrenaline gain. At the moment we have to spec in 2 lines for that. That’s 2 lines just to use our core mechanic.

Juba.8406:

Because Warriors are masters of weaponry ?

So you’re going with lore? Please see the multiple places where other classes’ gameplay doesn’t match the lore. Also, where in the definition for “weapon master” does it say “swaps weapons constantly”.

I do believe the other classes in the game are the masters of their respective weapons as well … why can’t a Ranger swap Longbow to Shortbow and back every 5s?

Why can’t Elementalist swap attunements every 5s? They are the masters of elements.

… or maybe everyone should have Fast Hands if we’re going to use this logic …

Juba.8406:

Because Warriors are 80% melee class ?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon#Weapon_usability_by_professions
Mind showing how you calculated that 80%?

Guardian has less range than Warrior (until their new Longbow comes out … unless Warriors get a new Ranged weapon too).

• Compare Scepter (1,200) + Staff (600 AA, 1,200 #2/#3) versus Rifle (1,200) and Longbow (1,000 / 1,200 traited).

Thief has less range than Warrior

• Compare Shortbow (900) and Pistol (900 / 1,050 traited) versus Rifle (1,200) and Longbow (1,000 / 1,200 traited).

Since you’re using this as an argument for having baseline Fast Hands … why don’t Thief and Guardian warrant Fast Hands as a baseline as well?

Juba.8406:

Because Warriors got no AI ?

Because the AI in GW2 is so awesome and the classes that leverage it (forced or voluntarily) don’t complain about the bad AI at all, right? :-p

I’m sure plenty of classes with AI would gladly give it to you in exchange for Fast Hands as a trait.

Juba.8406:

Because Warriors got no stealth, teleports, instant cast attacks, protection, regeneration, aegis, perma evades or combo fields ?

And we could go to each class in turn and list the things they don’t have … though your Warrior does have Regeneration, Combo Fields, built-in evades, etc.

Does a class not having access to several things other classes have warrant it needing Fast Hands? … because then we should likely just give Fast Hands to everyone.

Juba.8406:

Because leaving Fast Hands as its now means every warrior will have to trait Discipline ?

Please explain why they “have to trait Discipline” ? Why can a warrior not be stuck in a given weapon set for 5 more seconds like everyone else?

Juba.8406:

Because Warriors got 00000000.00 ZERO Baseline traits ?

Is warrior having trouble being part of PvE Meta? Nope, solidly part of it.
Is warrior having trouble being part of sPvP Meta? Nope, solidly part of it.
Is warrior having trouble being part of WvW Meta? Nope, solidly part of it.

So why exactly do you feel like you needed something baseline?
Perhaps you should focus more on what you did get instead of acting petulantly about the fact that classes that are barely part of a single meta (if any meta at all) received something baseline.

Heck, we’ll ignore the fact that given the decoupling of stats from specializations, you can take whatever +% damage traits you want for any weapon and not sacrifice Power, Precision, Ferocity, etc..

We’ll also ignore the +20% crit chance that Sword is getting from its traits again bleeding targets … or the numerous other traits that were largely improved for Warrior and opened the doors for some very nice things.

Oh poor Warrior … we are solid in every mode in the game but obviously still need more love … because … well, we’ll get to that later … but we need it … trust us …

This is the same crap that was spewed all over the forums when adrenaline was nerfed to decay out of combat … so many people claiming that it was going to ruin warriors … here we are a considerable amount of time after with that change still in place … Warriors are still solid everywhere … still awesome … still kicking in teeth.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

All those baseline traits that were added were balances to bring those classes UP to where Warrior already is.

So you think the current balance is wrong, and that the warrior class is overpowered in regards of other classes?

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Mesmer really needed a speed buff, they are slower than Guards, nothing is as mobile as Warrior.

The 25% speed increase gained by the mesmer is indeed a good thing. However, stating that “nothing is as mobile as a Warrior” is quite a bold assertion. I think you play ranger, right? Can anyone catch you when you run with GS + sword + Lightning Reflexes + stealth from traps?

You don’t run that setup? Well, mobility is a tough investment, it sure has a cost. The thing is, Warriors make this investment because they don’t have much of a choice, if they want access to decent engage/disengage strategies. They’re simply the most “kitable” class in the game, always visible to the opponent, with no stealth or teleport, burdened with telegraphed attacks and poor options for ranged combat…

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

You don’t have to take Discipline. Fast Hands is such a good trait that you automatically want it and the other traits in the line are good too, so you choose that line. What is the problem? You have to actually make a choice between really good traits? What is the reason you have to have it? It is THAT good. Which is also the reason it shouldn’t be baseline.

Actually, we have to invest 3 points in Discipline. Arguing about that is a bit strange, from a warrior point of view. The real point is to determine whether Fast Hands should be made baseline (in regards of the future class balance, and what other classes receive), not whether it should be included in all pvp builds.

As to why we use Fast Hands, it’s primarily due to the (shortcomings of the) adrenaline mechanics. As you know, the warrior has adrenaline, which gives access to a single skill, based on your active main-hand weapon. As such:

• You need to have the correct weapon set equipped to use the adrenaline (even if you have full bars). All other classes have instant access to their F skills, whatever weapon being equipped.
• Warriors only have (so far) one F skill, so less options than other classes (thief excepted, but initiative lets them use more skills in 10s).
• Adrenaline has only one baseline way to be filled: hitting the opponent. One hit is one strike of adrenaline, so you have to hit 30 times to get your three bars. This means a lot of AA, because of CD’s on other weapon skills (in other words: slow, inefficient, all the more that the warrior can be easily kited).

So, Fast Hands somehow “patches” the design flaws of the adrenaline system: it lets you use the burst skill more easily (at worst you wait 5s instead of 10s), and offers better management of weapon cooldowns (not as good as thieves, eles or engineers, though).

Naturally, there are other ways to build adrenaline. If some were made into baseline (Versatile Rage, Cleansing Ire…), and if the burst skill was dissociated from the active main hand weapon (e.g. F1 and F2 based on equipped weapons, not active weapons), then the discussion of Fast Hands made baseline wouldn’t be there in the first place.

Elegie.3620:

The 25% speed increase gained by the mesmer is indeed a good thing. However, stating that “nothing is as mobile as a Warrior” is quite a bold assertion. I think you play ranger, right? Can anyone catch you when you run with GS + sword + Lightning Reflexes + stealth from traps?

If you took the stealth from traps away, that would be about the extent of it, stealth is not mobility. Plus, its very rare for any ranger to run power melee weapons with two traps. Plus, that mobility means I have no range and also only two other utility skills, plus lower health and armor, no room for error. Warrior can have that same mobility by just taking GS.

You don’t run that setup? Well, mobility is a tough investment, it sure has a cost. The thing is, Warriors make this investment because they don’t have much of a choice, if they want access to decent engage/disengage strategies. They’re simply the most “kitable” class in the game, always visible to the opponent, with no stealth or teleport, burdened with telegraphed attacks and poor options for ranged combat…

The mobility is what makes up for the lack of those other things. Warrior can disengage pretty easily.

Actually, we have to invest 3 points in Discipline. Arguing about that is a bit strange, from a warrior point of view. The real point is to determine whether Fast Hands should be made baseline (in regards of the future class balance, and what other classes receive), not whether it should be included in all pvp builds.

I never said it didn’t take investment to have, I was talking about how it is worth the investment because it is so good. That is the reason peope here are claiming that every build needs it, its good! Also the same reason it shouldn’t be baseline. It doesn’t matter that you have to invest 3 points right now, its not like you are getting nothing for your 3 points. It is a good investment, you get 5s weapon swaps, 5 adrenaline every swap, plus (assuming) +25% run speed. For 3 points, that is fantastic.

It is also irrelevant what other classes are getting, the fact that warrior got NOTHING tells you how good a place it is in.

here is the issue

you make fast hands baseline…there is a brief moment of diversity until other meta defining builds are found. maybe it will be less overshadowing, maybe more, but you will still find people who state you cant function without it.

you dont make fast hands baseline. warriors continue needing it to function…period.

you take it away, you have to REDESIGN THE ENTIRE CLASS to balance out the nerf it would cause. warrior would be sub par in almost every way at that point. they really do lean on fast hands that much.

imo its more likely hte first or second option, both can be worked out with relative ease, the third option simply wont happen, would require far too much effort.

Sebrent.3625:

Juba.8406:

Because Warriors are masters of weaponry ?

So you’re going with lore? Please see the multiple places where other classes’ gameplay doesn’t match the lore. Also, where in the definition for “weapon master” does it say “swaps weapons constantly”.

I do believe the other classes in the game are the masters of their respective weapons as well … why can’t a Ranger swap Longbow to Shortbow and back every 5s?

Why can’t Elementalist swap attunements every 5s? They are the masters of elements.

… or maybe everyone should have Fast Hands if we’re going to use this logic …

Juba.8406:

Because Warriors are 80% melee class ?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon#Weapon_usability_by_professions
Mind showing how you calculated that 80%?

Guardian has less range than Warrior (until their new Longbow comes out … unless Warriors get a new Ranged weapon too).

• Compare Scepter (1,200) + Staff (600 AA, 1,200 #2/#3) versus Rifle (1,200) and Longbow (1,000 / 1,200 traited).

Thief has less range than Warrior

• Compare Shortbow (900) and Pistol (900 / 1,050 traited) versus Rifle (1,200) and Longbow (1,000 / 1,200 traited).

Since you’re using this as an argument for having baseline Fast Hands … why don’t Thief and Guardian warrant Fast Hands as a baseline as well?

Juba.8406:

Because Warriors got no AI ?

Because the AI in GW2 is so awesome and the classes that leverage it (forced or voluntarily) don’t complain about the bad AI at all, right? :-p

I’m sure plenty of classes with AI would gladly give it to you in exchange for Fast Hands as a trait.

Juba.8406:

Because Warriors got no stealth, teleports, instant cast attacks, protection, regeneration, aegis, perma evades or combo fields ?

And we could go to each class in turn and list the things they don’t have … though your Warrior does have Regeneration, Combo Fields, built-in evades, etc.

Does a class not having access to several things other classes have warrant it needing Fast Hands? … because then we should likely just give Fast Hands to everyone.

Juba.8406:

Because leaving Fast Hands as its now means every warrior will have to trait Discipline ?

Please explain why they “have to trait Discipline” ? Why can a warrior not be stuck in a given weapon set for 5 more seconds like everyone else?

Juba.8406:

Because Warriors got 00000000.00 ZERO Baseline traits ?

Is warrior having trouble being part of PvE Meta? Nope, solidly part of it.
Is warrior having trouble being part of sPvP Meta? Nope, solidly part of it.
Is warrior having trouble being part of WvW Meta? Nope, solidly part of it.

So why exactly do you feel like you needed something baseline?
Perhaps you should focus more on what you did get instead of acting petulantly about the fact that classes that are barely part of a single meta (if any meta at all) received something baseline.

Heck, we’ll ignore the fact that given the decoupling of stats from specializations, you can take whatever +% damage traits you want for any weapon and not sacrifice Power, Precision, Ferocity, etc..

We’ll also ignore the +20% crit chance that Sword is getting from its traits again bleeding targets … or the numerous other traits that were largely improved for Warrior and opened the doors for some very nice things.

Oh poor Warrior … we are solid in every mode in the game but obviously still need more love … because … well, we’ll get to that later … but we need it … trust us …

This is the same crap that was spewed all over the forums when adrenaline was nerfed to decay out of combat … so many people claiming that it was going to ruin warriors … here we are a considerable amount of time after with that change still in place … Warriors are still solid everywhere … still awesome … still kicking in teeth.

Completely disagree. We more or less reliant on our weapons abilities and combinations between them, to swap between them, for example skullcrack —> 100b. Or blade trail with leg specialist --> swap —> evis. Without the weapon swap we are useless, and with longer cd, we’ll do nothing but being target dummies auto attacking and can’t do those combos. We suffer from not having, and need fast hands more than any other class… We can’t reduce the weapon swap time, by being non-engaged, like a shatter mesmer can reduce the swap time by going in stealth e.t.c… we are always there, available to be attacked… U can say shield block fills same role, but no… it’s to neglect dmg, not disengage.

You don’t require Fast Hands to do a [Skullcrack] —>[Swap] —> [Hundred Blades]. You just have to be in Mace without swap on cooldown (max 10s). Same for when you have [Leg Specialist] and use [Blade Trail] —> [Swap] —> [Eviscerate].

There is only one swap occurring in your examples.

Now, if there was some example where you [Do Something] —> [Swap] —> [Do Several Somethings that Span >5 seconds but <10 seconds] —> [Swap] —> [Do Something Else] … then great … but that looks more akin to “spamming skills as soon as they’re off cooldown”.

I have never seen a Warrior “be useless” because they had weapon swap on cooldown … especially given that Warriors have some of the highest damage coefficients in the game.

Sure, if you’re wanting to use Weapon Set 2 but are in Weapon Set 1, you’re not happy … but it’s the same for others as well. I’d give up quite a bit to have Fast Hands on my Mesmer. Please, take my stealth and give me Fast Hands.

Also, Mesmer doesn’t reduce their weapon swap time by being in stealth … nothing reduces weapon swap time except Fast Hands (Warrior only) and Warrior Runes.

Sebrent.3625:

You don’t require Fast Hands to do a [Skullcrack] —>[Swap] --> [Hundred Blades]. You just have to be in Mace without swap on cooldown (max 10s). Same for when you have [Leg Specialist] and use [Blade Trail] —> [Swap] --> [Eviscerate].

There is only one swap occurring in your examples.

Now, if there was some example where you [Do Something] —> [Swap] --> [Do Several Somethings that Span >5 seconds but <10 seconds] —> [Swap] --> [Do Something Else] … then great … but that looks more akin to “spamming skills as soon as they’re off cooldown”.

I have never seen a Warrior “be useless” because they had weapon swap on cooldown … especially given that Warriors have some of the highest damage coefficients in the game.

Sure, if you’re wanting to use Weapon Set 2 but are in Weapon Set 1, you’re not happy … but it’s the same for others as well. I’d give up quite a bit to have Fast Hands on my Mesmer. Please, take my stealth and give me Fast Hands.

Also, Mesmer doesn’t reduce their weapon swap time by being in stealth … nothing reduces weapon swap time except Fast Hands (Warrior only) and Warrior Runes.

Ok, so the problem with what you’re describing is the consistency in how the flow of combat works with a warrior. There is no debate here whether or not fast hands is a must, because for literally 99% of the competitive builds it is. Sure you could do what you’re suggesting, but that would make warriors have less at their disposal during fights. It reduces the builds to a “one trick pony” build that , if countered, completely negates the effectiveness of the warrior. The benefits of fast hands are too high to pass up on: more adrenaline due to versatile rage ,ability to use 2-5 skills more without needing to cleave as much.. I could go on. The point is it is a must. The real question is should it be baseline or changed in some way so that we are not forced to take it every time like we are now.

As for other classes having it, couldn’t disagree more. This is a weapons focused class with not too many tricks at its disposal. If there is one thing that should be unique to the weapon-centric class it should be a better weapon swap. However, buffing warrior runes does sound like a good idea to make it decent for non-warriors.

i would give you fast hand if you give us all the skills that spawn clones (illusion, phantasms). please. faire trait.

@gmmg:
Your argument is “we need it because I said we need it”.

A warrior is no less “put out” by being “stuck” in a weapon set than other classes. In fact, given that Warrior auto-attacks are largely doing more damage than other classes’ auto-attacks, it could be argued that warriors are already less “put out”.

Now, if you want to talk about how a lack of Fast Hands renders some other traits less useful, such as those that increase adrenaline gain, let’s have that discussion. But let’s not forget that there are other ways to increase your use of adrenaline such as reduced Burst skill cooldowns. And let’s not forget that Warriors also have traits that benefit from having full adrenaline. Even though some have been changed to want you to use adrenaline, you’ve also been given some others that want you to have that adrenaline.

@lighter:
They asked for stealth. I would be more than happy to give that in exchange for fast hands.

If you want the phantasms too, then you need to give Mesmer the damage coefficients on your attacks since Mesmer’s coefficients factor in the damage provided by their phantasms.

Now that I think of it, making Fast Hands baseline would open up a huge amount of build diversity for Warriors.
You can cover up Warrior’s Sprint with a Warhorn anyways, so you definetly have choices there. Warrior’s Sprint baseline is a no-no. On the other hand, Fast hands is taken by every single Warrior ever, no matter what build you take, you are severly punishing youself by not doing so. No other profession in the game has this issue right now.
Remember Warrior’s burst skills are tied to the currently equiped weapon, this is a fairly strong point in favor as well.

My vote is a yes, but only for Fast Hands.