Guild Wars 2

Sebrent.3625:

You don’t require Fast Hands to do a [Skullcrack] —>[Swap] --> [Hundred Blades]. You just have to be in Mace without swap on cooldown (max 10s). Same for when you have [Leg Specialist] and use [Blade Trail] —> [Swap] --> [Eviscerate].

There is only one swap occurring in your examples.

Now, if there was some example where you [Do Something] —> [Swap] --> [Do Several Somethings that Span >5 seconds but <10 seconds] —> [Swap] --> [Do Something Else] … then great … but that looks more akin to “spamming skills as soon as they’re off cooldown”.

I have never seen a Warrior “be useless” because they had weapon swap on cooldown … especially given that Warriors have some of the highest damage coefficients in the game.

Sure, if you’re wanting to use Weapon Set 2 but are in Weapon Set 1, you’re not happy … but it’s the same for others as well. I’d give up quite a bit to have Fast Hands on my Mesmer. Please, take my stealth and give me Fast Hands.

Also, Mesmer doesn’t reduce their weapon swap time by being in stealth … nothing reduces weapon swap time except Fast Hands (Warrior only) and Warrior Runes.

What I mean is rather that warrior weapons are less independent and as I said rely on each other to be successful so even if u still can do skullcrack without fast hands… you will only be able to be effective a short period of time every 10 sec.
I dunno how else to explain if u still aren’t able to understand it

I agree with Fast Hands I feel almost every warrior build will have to pick the discipline line just for that trait and cripple build diversity even more when anet wants to create more diversity.

TheAngryDuckling.5481:

I agree with Fast Hands I feel almost every warrior build will have to pick the discipline line just for that trait and cripple build diversity even more when anet wants to create more diversity.

Yay, you are not dumb

Did anyone already find a viable warrior build without fast hands?

I dont get this posts that say that fast hands should not be made baseline. Every warrior already takes fast hands in their builds if he wants to be viable, so the only thing that would change is the build warrior takes, and that is really good.
Btw , people should not compare classes…. Its dumb…

silentnight warrior.2714:

Did anyone already find a viable warrior build without fast hands?

I dont get this posts that say that fast hands should not be made baseline. Every warrior already takes fast hands in their builds if he wants to be viable, so the only thing that would change is the build warrior takes, and that is really good.
People should not compare classes….

Nope!

I guess u can go something 6 0 6 0 2 with warr runes. Bad tho but I guess it’s ‘viable’

Just saying if fast HANDS was so OP, every class meta would have warrior runes.

Warrior Runes are -20%, not -50% and also vitality main stat, which sucks. Since you didn’t specify any game mode, here is a build without Fast Hands that can complete all PvE content while doing awesome damage and supporting, but I don’t think most of you are really referring to PvE.

Obindo.6802:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Did anyone already find a viable warrior build without fast hands?

I dont get this posts that say that fast hands should not be made baseline. Every warrior already takes fast hands in their builds if he wants to be viable, so the only thing that would change is the build warrior takes, and that is really good.
People should not compare classes….

Nope!

I guess u can go something 6 0 6 0 2 with warr runes. Bad tho but I guess it’s ‘viable’

Ikr. We should challenge all the naysayers to make any build they want without fast hands and fight against a build that uses fast hand while using fewer traits. Bet we’d still win lol

Alexander.9810:

I agree with the adrenaline on hit being baseline and adjusting traits so that Warrior isn’t filling it up too fast. It only makes sense that a class with no stealth, teleports, and whose archetype is “Come at me Bro” to be rewarded for being such.

I agree with this. Also adrenaline on hit should have an ICD of 1 second, so they won’t get full adrenaline in 2 seconds when someone is focus fire on Warrior.

Shala.8352:

Just saying if fast HANDS was so OP, every class meta would have warrior runes.

5 sec swap versus 8 second swap is incredibly different. 5 second swap allows you to run twice the effective sigils by varying them, where as 8 second swap does very little. One of the most powerful aspects to fast hands is that it gets 2x the Sigil power, having better ability control, better combo control and less cool down wasting are all huge perks as well, no doubt, but doubling sigil usage is a huge perk.

ronpierce.2760:

Shala.8352:

Just saying if fast HANDS was so OP, every class meta would have warrior runes.

5 sec swap versus 8 second swap is incredibly different. 5 second swap allows you to run twice the effective sigils by varying them, where as 8 second swap does very little. One of the most powerful aspects to fast hands is that it gets 2x the Sigil power, having better ability control, better combo control and less cool down wasting are all huge perks as well, no doubt, but doubling sigil usage is a huge perk.

Actually, warr runes give 7.2 sec weapon swap, and fast hands 4.5, if I’m not mistaken.

Obindo.6802:

ronpierce.2760:

Shala.8352:

Just saying if fast HANDS was so OP, every class meta would have warrior runes.

5 sec swap versus 8 second swap is incredibly different. 5 second swap allows you to run twice the effective sigils by varying them, where as 8 second swap does very little. One of the most powerful aspects to fast hands is that it gets 2x the Sigil power, having better ability control, better combo control and less cool down wasting are all huge perks as well, no doubt, but doubling sigil usage is a huge perk.

Actually, warr runes give 7.2 sec weapon swap, and fast hands 4.5, if I’m not mistaken.

Either way, that 5 second break point is key in doubling sigil usage, anything above that would actually delay sigil usage if you don’t wait out the ICD on the sigils before swapping.

ronpierce.2760:

Obindo.6802:

ronpierce.2760:

Shala.8352:

Just saying if fast HANDS was so OP, every class meta would have warrior runes.

5 sec swap versus 8 second swap is incredibly different. 5 second swap allows you to run twice the effective sigils by varying them, where as 8 second swap does very little. One of the most powerful aspects to fast hands is that it gets 2x the Sigil power, having better ability control, better combo control and less cool down wasting are all huge perks as well, no doubt, but doubling sigil usage is a huge perk.

Actually, warr runes give 7.2 sec weapon swap, and fast hands 4.5, if I’m not mistaken.

Either way, that 5 second break point is key in doubling sigil usage, anything above that would actually delay sigil usage if you don’t wait out the ICD on the sigils before swapping.

I’m not saying otherwise, just said. And u can still double sigils, just less value, again, just saying, I’m all for fast hands and it being made baseline

Obindo.6802:

What I mean is rather that warrior weapons are less independent and as I said rely on each other to be successful so even if u still can do skullcrack without fast hands… you will only be able to be effective a short period of time every 10 sec.
I dunno how else to explain if u still aren’t able to understand it

I understand your point just fine. I don’t think it’s sufficient … hence the multiple counterpoints which you aren’t addressing.

Why do you need to be able to do such a combo every 5s instead of every 10s when other classes also have weapon skills they’d like to combo with their class mechanic that do suffer from the 10s weapon swap?

Heck, for a Mesmer to get a 3 illusion shatter they either have to trait Deceptive Evasion or weapon swap unless their opponent (1) loves to attack into blocks like a noob and (2) their opponent doesn’t cleave illusions or (3) they take a utility to provide another illusion … even more so if they want to shatter again soon after the first.

Depending on weapon sets, a Necromancer’s Life Force generation is hindered by waiting for cooldowns on weapon skills that provide Life Force. That weapon swap hinders them too.

F1 skills aside, there are plenty of weapon skill combinations that each class has where they want to swap from one weapon to the other for it. The only class that is doing better than Warrior with Fast Hands is Engineer. Elementalist, whose class mechanic is multiple weapon sets, still suffers a greater than 5s swap even with a full investment in arcana.

Would it be nice to have kitten weapon swap baseline? Heck, yes.

Is it necessary to have kitten weapon swap baseline? I have yet to see a sound argument why it is necessary.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Warrior Runes are -20%, not -50% and also vitality main stat, which sucks. Since you didn’t specify any game mode, here is a build without Fast Hands that can complete all PvE content while doing awesome damage and supporting, but I don’t think most of you are really referring to PvE.

Any build is viable in pve, you could even run without any trait points allocated and succeed so obviously no one cares about viable builds there.

Yet even when it comes to PvE, Fast Hands is also optimal. There’s a reason the PS warrior meta build is not what you showed but instead a 05063 build: because of Fast Hands. So even in PvE it’s still optimal to run it. Only with the new upcoming trait system will it be optimal to run PS without Fast Hands and the only reason for that is that you’d need to fully take the Discipline line and sacrifice either the entire Strenght line or Arms line for it.

Sebrent.3625:

@gmmg:
Your argument is “we need it because I said we need it”.

A warrior is no less “put out” by being “stuck” in a weapon set than other classes. In fact, given that Warrior auto-attacks are largely doing more damage than other classes’ auto-attacks, it could be argued that warriors are already less “put out”.

Now, if you want to talk about how a lack of Fast Hands renders some other traits less useful, such as those that increase adrenaline gain, let’s have that discussion. But let’s not forget that there are other ways to increase your use of adrenaline such as reduced Burst skill cooldowns. And let’s not forget that Warriors also have traits that benefit from having full adrenaline. Even though some have been changed to want you to use adrenaline, you’ve also been given some others that want you to have that adrenaline.

@lighter:
They asked for stealth. I would be more than happy to give that in exchange for fast hands.

If you want the phantasms too, then you need to give Mesmer the damage coefficients on your attacks since Mesmer’s coefficients factor in the damage provided by their phantasms.

you really think that mesmer will be any viable at all without stealth in pvp?…
i would take stealth any time over fast hand

lighter.2708:

you really think that mesmer will be any viable at all without stealth in pvp?…
i would take stealth any time over fast hand

people are actualy doing no brain comparisons, really changing mesmer stealth for warrior fast hand???? go see how much you can survive with mesmer without your stealth, and see how usefull can be have a double PROC sigilss when you actualy are taking all the damage cuz cant stealth… and feel warrior pain!
People are arguing warrior is easy and noobish, they mean come on look at those warriors noob taking all the damage and still not dieng, but people have forgot that warrior cant have all the evades/block block aegis/stealth that others class have.

Talking seriously about warrior Fast hands, the reason is mandatory in pvp is not the double sigil PROCS, but the fact warrior has really predictable skill rotation/animation, that fast hand is the only way to mess up the easy reading of the opponent, thats why every warrior that has a minimum experience in pvp will chose this trait straight way, and thats why they should make it baseline for warriors at least in pvp.

Sebrent.3625:

Obindo.6802:

What I mean is rather that warrior weapons are less independent and as I said rely on each other to be successful so even if u still can do skullcrack without fast hands… you will only be able to be effective a short period of time every 10 sec.
I dunno how else to explain if u still aren’t able to understand it

I understand your point just fine. I don’t think it’s sufficient … hence the multiple counterpoints which you aren’t addressing.

Why do you need to be able to do such a combo every 5s instead of every 10s when other classes also have weapon skills they’d like to combo with their class mechanic that do suffer from the 10s weapon swap?

Heck, for a Mesmer to get a 3 illusion shatter they either have to trait Deceptive Evasion or weapon swap unless their opponent (1) loves to attack into blocks like a noob and (2) their opponent doesn’t cleave illusions or (3) they take a utility to provide another illusion … even more so if they want to shatter again soon after the first.

Depending on weapon sets, a Necromancer’s Life Force generation is hindered by waiting for cooldowns on weapon skills that provide Life Force. That weapon swap hinders them too.

F1 skills aside, there are plenty of weapon skill combinations that each class has where they want to swap from one weapon to the other for it. The only class that is doing better than Warrior with Fast Hands is Engineer. Elementalist, whose class mechanic is multiple weapon sets, still suffers a greater than 5s swap even with a full investment in arcana.

Would it be nice to have kitten weapon swap baseline? Heck, yes.

Is it necessary to have kitten weapon swap baseline? I have yet to see a sound argument why it is necessary.

Well, the warrs cd’s are quick and in succession, like the hammer. U will have to use all (ofc u don’t ‘have’ to) and to run around with auto attack for 7 seconds, while warr still is a melee hit dummy (bow is just cancer, has still kitten auto attack anyways), will just make us useless. Apart from other classes.

You want a argument why it should be made baseline:
Removing it = ruins wars.
Having it as a trait will ruin build diversity, why? because EVERYONE will take it, unless they take some troll kitten build, or pve ofc (pvp/wvw perspective). So, as it is now. Everyone will take discipline, making it baseline, only means that there will be potentially 1 more trait that gets in effect, if u think of fast hands as a trait. And think of that everyone is getting a general buff? And if it’s too much (which it isn’t imo), it’s called balancing, it’s not out yet, the baseline, would just be a slight slight buff, and some more build diversity, where Discipline isn’t mandatory. Compared to other classes being made baseline (I have no clue here, only seen others got many), I believe that others got thing being made baseline, where they otherwise, would not have all of those things at once, mesmer especially I think. We’ve gotten no baseline trait. Not meaning to QQ, just that warrior is not the only one getting a buff. Their idea is to make more build diversity as well, and whilst buffing, why not make fast hands baseline at the same time? that’s a win win, and better for the game.

Ofc just my opinion, and no offense, I think any other opinion is stupid.

Oh i forgot… this is for the skilled fellow mesmers and all the people thinking warrior is for noobs:
bursting opponent while being in stealth or clone confusing/teleports so that the opponent cant see the burst coming isnt skill, being able to burst even with warrior’s easy rotation to read and always while beeing easy targeted and spotted is simply called outplaying.
And this coming from someone who played both mesmer and warrior in pvp at decent level, and even by having double warrior’s game i’m still beeing confident that i would rekt easyly my warrior with my mesmer.

Obindo, my problem with your posts is this … you just say that “everyone will take it” … but don’t provide why. Previously you mentioned do be able to use all that adrenaline, but Burst Skills are on a 10s base cooldown (probably lower given the Specialization changes … see Attunement cooldown reductions, stats removed from traitlines, etc.).

You say that after using all your skills you have to wait 7s before you can use another one unless you have fast hands … but every other class deals with that too so why don’t they need fast hands too?

Now, I understand the concept of making Fast Hands baseline so that people don’t feel like they have to take Discipline to get Fast Hands … but why do people feel like they need that?

I still have no seen any good reason that is “warrior only”. Every point that has been made has been an anecdote, is shared with several other (if not all) classes, or is simply an opinion with nothing backing it up. Not one reason why warrior alone needs fast hands as baseline.

Sebrent.3625:

Obindo, my problem with your posts is this … you just say that “everyone will take it” … but don’t provide why. Previously you mentioned do be able to use all that adrenaline, but Burst Skills are on a 10s base cooldown (probably lower given the Specialization changes … see Attunement cooldown reductions, stats removed from traitlines, etc.).

You say that after using all your skills you have to wait 7s before you can use another one unless you have fast hands … but every other class deals with that too so why don’t they need fast hands too?

Now, I understand the concept of making Fast Hands baseline so that people don’t feel like they have to take Discipline to get Fast Hands … but why do people feel like they need that?

I still have no seen any good reason that is “warrior only”. Every point that has been made has been an anecdote, is shared with several other (if not all) classes, or is simply an opinion with nothing backing it up. Not one reason why warrior alone needs fast hands as baseline.

Burst skills have an cooldown of around 8-10 sec, 10 without any reduction from trait. Weapon swapping is 4.5 sec cd withfast hand. 4.5 + 4.5 = 9. It’s not a cd on the adrenaline to be used, but on the actual skill on each weapon.

It’s of course not only burst skills that is good with this. Other skills aswell, like pin down or backbreaker can be used. Warrior play is very combination-like with it’s skills, and used in quick succession, then to swap weapons, to use other skills, while they recharge, and then when those are used u swap back to the mainly recharged cd’s and u can start over basically. For example: If u’re on a gs/hammer build; Earthshaker → #4 → #5 → #2 → weapon swap → arcing slice (→ whirlwind perhaps). So, what I meant with the 7s (wich was perhaps exaggerated in that it’s situational) is that if u do combos in succession, wich warrior does with it’s weapons, u’ll be left running around for many seconds when u can’t weapon swap, autoattacking, being a training dummy, vulnerable and rather useless.
Let’s compare mesmer as example. Their attacks are quit independant, there are ofc some plausible combos, like immob on sword → gs and burst on shatter, but it’s not reliant on it and it can do other thing instead with that immob in this case.
For example, no greatsword skill is dependant, or atleast, far more effective, in conjunction with other abilities, and on swapping to another weapons set. It’s not like the phantasm does more dmg or can only be sure to hit, if you used what? the aoe? Ofc there is the knockback but that’s not the point, and it’s not a combo initiater, like a hammer cc on warr.

Warriors are also very vulnerable, with no stealth, port invuln, mad thief dodges e.t.c, We can’t prolong the action till the point where u can weapon swap. Like stealthing. We’re basically just an opportunity of burst most of the time, a training dummy.
It’s not like every class is the same, everyone is neutral, but warr, only warr has something more, fast hands. They work different ways, and fast hands is a way to compliment to it’s playstyle.

Thus we are reliant on fast hands to be effective, hence having to take discipline

Maybe this is ‘anecdote’ again, but I won’t sit and analyze and explain with 10 pages, to have you understand my thoughts. There is far more to it, but as I said, I won’t spend hours on explaining the whole game.

- Ofc just my opinions, altho I think most warrs would agree with me.

Obindo.6802:

So, what I meant with the 7s (wich was perhaps exaggerated in that it’s situational) is that if u do combos in succession, wich warrior does with it’s weapons, u’ll be left running around for many seconds when u can’t weapon swap, autoattacking, being a training dummy, vulnerable and rather useless.

So you think that Warrior is the only class that is trying to combo weapon skills together? I would say that you’re dead wrong.

Hence, if you think that trying to combo weapon skills is a why you need Fast Hands baseline that then you need to explain why all the other classes don’t need Fast Hands baseline.

Obindo.6802:

Let’s compare mesmer as example. Their attacks are quit independant, there are ofc some plausible combos, like immob on sword -> gs and burst on shatter, but it’s not reliant on it and it can do other thing instead with that immob in this case.

Why exactly do you think Mesmer skills are so much more independent than Warrior skills? Have you been to the Mesmer forums? Read the guides? There are all sorts of weapon (and Utility) skills that Mesmers like to string together.

Obindo.6802:

For example, no greatsword skill is dependant, or atleast, far more effective, in conjunction with other abilities, and on swapping to another weapons set. It’s not like the phantasm does more dmg or can only be sure to hit, if you used what? the aoe? Ofc there is the knockback but that’s not the point, and it’s not a combo initiater, like a hammer cc on warr.

So you think the Greatsword’s Mirrorblade doesn’t benefit from a target being CC’d so they can’t dodge/block/etc. the attack? Why?

I can’t think of any attacks in the game that don’t benefit from a target being CC’d so that they can reliably hit them.

The only Warrior weapon skill you’ve mentioned that desires a “setup” is Hundred Blades. That is ONE ability. That ability does not define the Warrior class and is not the only rooted, channeled, melee ability in the game. Do the other classes that have such an ability also need Fast Hands baseline?

Obindo.6802:

Warriors are also very vulnerable, with no stealth, port invuln, mad thief dodges e.t.c, We can’t prolong the action till the point where u can weapon swap. Like stealthing. We’re basically just an opportunity of burst most of the time, a training dummy.

So having the combination of highest base armor and highest base health doesn’t offset this at all?

Having mobility and/or blocks on your weapon sets doesn’t help either? Nor CC?

What about invuln? Sure, Endure pain doesn’t stop condition damage, but few invulns in the game actually do.

Yeah, you can’t stealth like Thief (Mesmer can’t either). You can’t evade like a Thief either. You know who a Thief can’t take hits like? A Warrior. Mesmer can’t either.

Obindo.6802:

They work different ways, and fast hands is a way to compliment to it’s playstyle.

Yes, as you said, it’s a complement. Complementing a style does not make it a requirement.

Obindo.6802:

Thus we are reliant on fast hands to be effective, hence having to take discipline

No, there are plenty of traits that complement playstyles of the various classes in the game, but those have not all become baseline.

Heck Piercing Arrows complements the heck out of Ranger Longbow/Shortbow … it is still going to require traits to have.

Deceptive Evasion is something most Mesmers have wanted to be baseline for years because it has been an essential trait for several builds … but it didn’t become baseline like some other Mesmer traits … it still going to require a trait to have.

Elementalists would love to gain (and give) boons each time they swap to a new attunement, but they still have to trait for it. Heck, it now even competes with some other goods traits they want like effects on dodge roll.

I still see nothing that says “Fast Hands needs to be baseline”. I only see the logic behind why you “want” and I fully and completely understand why it is “wanted”. I too enjoy it on my Warrior … but I’ve also played without it from time to time without really being hindered. I just had to play much smarter as far as my weapon swaps were concerned.

Hi,

Sebrent.3625:

I can’t think of any attacks in the game that don’t benefit from a target being CC’d so that they can reliably hit them.

That’s obvious, but some attacks are way easier to land than other attacks. Ranged attacks, instant cast attacks, teleport combos and so on. Since you have experience in PvP, I’m pretty sure you’re familiar with some Fresh Air bursts, like Air 1+2+3+arcane, or the phoenix-port. Thieves, mesmers, guardians have all very good opening bursts with teleport as well.

Sebrent.3625:

The only Warrior weapon skill you’ve mentioned that desires a “setup” is Hundred Blades.

This is certainly not the only ability which needs to be setup. Eviscerate, Kill Shot, Final Thrust, Whirling Axe… are all skills requiring a sort of setup. And we have other skills which require feinting (sheathing), such as Pin Down.

The warrior is always visible, thus always kitable. Aside from autoattacking with a bow, or using a rifle (and being mocked by opponents for this), he needs to get to melee to hit reliably. All classes benefit from controlling their opponents; but in the case of the warrior, it’s vital, because he cannot port on the foe, or stealth his way in.

Sebrent.3625:

Heck Piercing Arrows complements the heck out of Ranger Longbow/Shortbow … it is still going to require traits to have.

It’s a weapon mechanics, not a class mechanics. If the weapon skill is too weak, then it should be buffed, possibly in a baseline way, I don’t mind. However, most ranged weapons do not pierce unless traited, across all classes, so this seems consistent to me.

Sebrent.3625:

Deceptive Evasion is something most Mesmers have wanted to be baseline for years because it has been an essential trait for several builds … but it didn’t become baseline like some other Mesmer traits … it still going to require a trait to have.

Clones can take aggro, making Deceptive Evasion baseline would mess up many PvE situations. Mesmer did receive the grand master trait “Illusionary Persona” as baseline. This is considerable: a 60 seconds invulnerability and a 45 seconds daze for free, and an indirect buffs to all shatter mechanism (e.g. Maim the Disillusioned). As a mesmer, I was overjoyed, but balance is a global thing, so I suppose other classes have received buffs of equal value.

Sebrent.3625:

Elementalists would love to gain (and give) boons each time they swap to a new attunement, but they still have to trait for it. Heck, it now even competes with some other goods traits they want like effects on dodge roll.

Most classes can trait their dodges. Getting a boon is not a baseline thing, since it would mean the boon is bound to a particular class mechanics.

Sebrent.3625:

I still see nothing that says “Fast Hands needs to be baseline”. I only see the logic behind why you “want” and I fully and completely understand why it is “wanted”. I too enjoy it on my Warrior … but I’ve also played without it from time to time without really being hindered. I just had to play much smarter as far as my weapon swaps were concerned.

I have offered an explanation previously in the thread of why Fast Hands is needed on a PvP build (see the end of the post). It’s not because it’s convenient, it’s because the class mechanics is falling short. We all have tried builds without Fast Hands, because being tied to a particular trait line is frustrating. The very existence of Fast Hands is actually an acknowledgement of the limitations of the warrior mechanics.

Now, that Fast Hand is necessary on a warrior does not necessarily mean it should be made baseline. Warriors have been tied to Discipline since ages, and we’ve coped with that quite well. It’s just sad to be locked in a specific trait line, because your class mechanics is lacking. I’d rather have Fast Hands be baseline at the expense of nerfs, to be able to use all my trait lines.

The reason you don’t see many warriors discussing the Fast Hands point is because we have recently seen a surge of non-warriors on the forum, coming to argue more than usual about the class (while sometimes admitting to some ignorance of its mechanics or challenges). Newcomers are always welcome of course, but attitude can often have them mentally blacklisted by regulars, fairly or not (I sure do it).

Regards.

Read the argument it still sound like want not need.

Bran.7425:

Read the argument it still sound like want not need.

But is it going to make Warrior broken? Most likely not considering discipline is still a strong tree without counting fast hands.

Say I did Strength + Arms + Elite Spec and fast hands becomes baseline, it probably wouldn’t hurt to do that knowing that other classes will get kittened power creep anyways.

I don’t know if establishing the absolute need for fast hands is important. It is however important to note that most people who play warrior believe that they do need it. Thus, regardless of whether or not the trait is made baseline, warriors will have 5 sec weapon swap (or at least 95% of them in pvp/wvw). In effect, the power creep related to making fast hands baseline is not fast hands itself, but rather what fast hands is replaced with (for those who still take discipline). For those who do not choose to take Discipline, the power creep will involve new synergies between trait line combinations that would not have previously been chosen. Thus, the power creep would effectively be the effects associated with enhanced build diversity, or a trait that will undoubtedly be weaker than fast hands.

Edit: Added Examples:

Example 1: Fast Hands is made baseline, user keeps discipline.
Build before trait is baseline: Strength + Defense + Disciple (aribitrary)
After trait is baseline: Strength + Defense + Disciple + trait that replaces Fast Hands
Net effect: Power creep in the form of 1 extra trait

Example 2: fast Hands is made baseline, user swaps Discipline.
Build before trait is baseline: Strength + Defense + Disciple
After trait is baseline: Strength + Defense + Tactics + fast hands
Net effect: any special synergistic benefits the build has from switching to tactics (if any, but why switch to tactics if they weren’t in excess of synergies gained from taking discipline). Additionally, the build has one additional trait (cannot be specified, is not fast hands since both builds have it).

When it comes down to it, does the increased build diversity warrant the associated power creep? Normally, I would be uncertain. However, the upcoming patch seems to be characterized by power creep (free traits, 4 more total traits from lines). Looking at what some of the other classes seem to be getting, the power creep from making fast hands baseline doesn’t seem too unreasonable as far as I can tell.

It is important to note that the elite specialization may add something that could act as a substitute for fast hands (i.e. the new f2 swaps weapons regardless of cd (1 bar cost), or the new utilities are like kits (great axe, land spear, crossbow, etc.). If something along those lines occurs, then this discussion may become irrelevant. Will have to wait to find out.

Fast Hands (baseline or not actually) is definitely a need more than a want, and if you can’t cope with that, consider that it’s both. In PvE, Fast Hands is not needed for ennemies are not kiting, and sometimes even not moving. But in PvP, you can’t go without it : you suffer extreme DPS loss, making warrs unviable in a more offensive orientated compo.

Sebrent, you said that when you played without it you had to played “smarter” well, without having seen you I can say that’s wrong : you only had to struggle more and pick your fights more carefully, what is clearly not the role of a heavy class.

Fast Hands is not just a bonus, it’s a class mechanic and a class mechanic is not “optional”, it’s necessary.
Do the test, try to play GS/LB without Fast Hands against people who have the same experience as you.

I mean, currently, the shoutbow meta doesn’t need Fast Hands (even though they use it) because it’s based on condi and support, but trust me, when the Celestial amulet gets nerfed, people playing war will have to go for Fast Hands builds.

Lastly, I’d like to point out that noone mentioned the fact that Fast Hands allows warrior to gain more offensive or defensive capability via sigils ! Going without that trait is a HUGE nerf to the class in that way. As for the auto-attack… I mean, who seriously lets himself/herself hit by a warrior’s AA ?

So yeah, definitely a need and not a want, or maybe both. But a need first.

(And people, stop comparing what you can’t compare : others classes can’t have that trait or it would ruin the balance of the game and make warrior useless again. Or if you want to stick with that broken logic, I say why don’t we put CD’s on engi kit swapping ? See ? Idiotic).

Gevinor.4503:

It is important to note that the elite specialization may add something that could act as a substitute for fast hands. If something along those lines occurs, then this discussion may become irrelevant. Will have to wait to find out.

Exactly.

@Gevinor:
If it is important to note that fast hands is something that many people feel they need then we should now pay attention to all the other things that people feel are correct so …

• Mesmer clones should never look like the Mesmer … and stealth shouldn’t exist.
• Thieves should not be allowed to stealth … nor dodge … and their damage should be reduced
• Ranger Rapid Fire needs more than the already large number of ways to mitigate it … and it should do less damage
• Warrior Healing Signet should have the same low HPS as Ranger Signet of the Wild and Warrior movement should be nerfed enough that they can never run away

Do you see the problem with saying “lots of people think it, so it must be so”. There are plenty of times in just history alone that this point was proven to be a bad way to try to prove something was correct.

Whether or not it is actually necessary is THE thing to dis[prove] because it dictates whether or not it should be baseline:

• If it can be proven to be needed … it should be baseline
• If it can be proven to not be needed … it should not be baseline

You skirt one topic but don’t really delve into it; instead assuming that any new synergies with the new Specialization system will be weaker than Fast Hands. You never clarify why you assume this. You never go into what any of the new synergies could be that are still weaker than Fast Hands. Just generalizations and an assumption.

@FatRaKoon
There is a big difference between “being smarter about my weapon swaps” and “picking and choosing battles”. You seem to have gotten the two mixed up in your 2nd paragraph as being the same thing when they are not.

How is Fast Hands a “class mechanic”? It surely is not. It is a trait. The class mechanics are quite clear in what they are. Warrior = Burst Skills. Mesmer = Illusions+Shatters. Thief = Steal. Elementalist = Attunements … and so on.

You can tell me to go fight other people with Fast Hands when I don’t have it … but I have and this still doesn’t tell me anything except that I beat some people and some people beat me. There’s quite a large number of variables that come into play during fights far beyond that single trait.

You aren’t just giving up Fast Hands … you are gaining something in its place. It’s up to each player to decide whether or not what they are gaining is worth giving up Fast Hands. With the new Specialization System, Warriors will be gaining an entire Specialization so they will have to ask their selves if Discipline is worth it over another Specialization. I doubt that if you hate the rest of the Discipline Specialization that it’d be intelligent to take it just for Fast Hands over some other Specialization.

As far as Sigils … is Warrior supposed to only be using On-Swap Sigils? I don’t think so, so I don’t understand why that is so important when it comes to claims of needing Fast Hands.

As far as auto-attacks … plenty of people get hit by Warrior AAs. Are you not watching many of the Warrior roaming and sPvP videos? Sure, people aren’t just standing there letting themselves be AA’d (those that do die quickly), but good Warriors are quite adept to sticking to a target and no one has enough blocks/dodges/evades/etc. to prevent AAs from hitting them. Auto attacks are being used and they do excellent damage. Can you imagine a MH Sword not hitting with AAs? That’d be terrible … yet for this strange reason we see condi warriors using Sword. It certainly isn’t them just using #2 through #5.

Sebrent.3625:

• Mesmer clones should never look like the Mesmer … and stealth shouldn’t exist.
• Thieves should not be allowed to stealth … nor dodge … and their damage should be reduced
• Ranger Rapid Fire needs more than the already large number of ways to mitigate it … and it should do less damage
• Warrior Healing Signet should have the same low HPS as Ranger Signet of the Wild and Warrior movement should be nerfed enough that they can never run away

Do you see the problem with saying “lots of people think it, so it must be so”.

50% of what you listed here are like completely made up….
and the other half..just because one or two people make threads about them doesnt mean it’s majority of people..

I ran a PvP bill without fast hands for a long time with a fair measure of success. Was it optimal? No. Was it viable? Yes. Making fast hands baseline would be quite OP. You are not just getting an amazing trait for free, you would then have room for another really good trait. The compound effect wot be way to strong.

Sebrent,

I am afraid that you have misunderstood what I meant, I will try to elaborate.

The fact that warriors feel that they need fast hands is not justification to make it baseline. My point was, since they think they need it, they will seek it out wherever it is, and thus will have it regardless of if it is baseline or not.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. One way to discuss whether or not that fast hands should be baseline is to argue about if it is absolutely needed, another way is to discuss whether or not the net effects of the change are desirable for the game. I was trying to discuss the topic for the latter point of view.

My statement “For those who do not choose to take Discipline, power creep will involve new synergies between trait line combinations that would not have previously been chosen,” is only a hypothesis. If fast hands is made baseline, a large amount of builds may become viable that were not before. If the new warrior trait layouts were designed in such a manner that assumed that most, if not all, viable pvp/wvw builds will have to take discipline, then there could be some kind of overpowered combination if the need for discipline is removed. Personally, nothing specific comes to mind.

Also, I never said that the synergies would be weaker than fast hands. I was referring to whatever trait they dream up to replace fast hands. I can’t imagine it would be anywhere near as powerful.

I will add some examples to my previous post to try and make its main message clearer.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up, Gevinor.

Going with your vein of thought on “the net effects … desireable for the game”.

First, I think we can agree that given that we aren’t ArenaNet employs, we can’t pinpoint a specific direction for the game … in this case, specifically Warriors.

Second, I think we can agree that build diversity is something that ArenaNet is shooting for in a broad sense.

Third, I think we can agree that there are points on both sides of this for build diversity. * Some think that making Fast Hands baseline will improve build diversity

• Others thing that making Fast Hands baseline is not required for build diversity, that people are just limiting their selves.

I think the second bullet is what is truly being debated … are people just limiting their selves or is it an actual limitation that needs to just be “solved” by being baseline.

I think this because without a doubt removing a trait would open up more builds because it’s one less decision to be made. The same could be said for any popular trait for any class. The issue is “is it necessary” … OP/UP are side-topics in my mind … though relevant.

Are we on the same page so far?

Perhaps with the specialization changes people will feel less like they need to be swapping weapons as much, actually want to be in a particularly weapon set longer than they are now, and/or are more willing to stay in a weapon for an additional 5 seconds (or more) due to these changes.

I think we can agree that despite no traits becoming baseline, Warrior got some really good changes here.

• Stats decoupled from traits … Warrior has always some some great traits that’d synergize well for more damage, but they were not in the trait lines that gave Power, Precision, Ferocity, etc. … not that’s not an issue.
• Traits combined … some of the Warrior traits were combined into single traits. The Shout traits are a great example of this given the current sPvP meta. That already strong build is likely to get even strong and possibly even have more viable variations of it.
• Trait improvements … Sword gaining +20% crit chance against opponents who are bleeding … it’s a Warrior Sword … it bleeds people every time the Warrior breaks wind :-p … also the dual wielding trait is substantially better … as well as many others

I think people are seriously underestimating these things when asking for “more”; in this case, that more being Fast Hands baseline.

Side-note: I appreciate that you clarified that I misunderstood your previous post instead of what we often see in the other forums when that happens. It is both appreciated and respected. I like a good conversation :-)

@Sebrent : Thank you for taking the time to read my entire post and to answer it.
The thing is, I feel like we’re blowing hot air here… I mean, I can’t say I totally disagree with your general position on this matter :

Knowing that the expansion will bring new playstyles anyway, nothing is less sure than saying Fast Hands will be required/useful in the future, so basically, I don’t see why we should make it baseline. True.

But I also think that it is a really important trait to have in the current meta. Of course, you can always make it without it but you will never succeed in higher levels of sPvP. So I guess it really depends on what you wish to use your warrior for : in hotjoins or casual games, you can play (fortunately) everything you wish to play in any way you want, but that becomes impossible at higher levels/organized games.

So in a way, I’d say that Fast Hands is currently needed if you want to play otherwise than to simply unwind, but isn’t when you play casually. Every players won’t be affected the same way.

Besides, what I really have a problem with concerning your reasoning is that you basically say : if it’s not needed (and you obviously have a strict definition of it – not a criticism -) it doesn’t have to be baseline, right ?
Well if I take a look at what becomes baseline for every other classes, nothing is really needed. So following your reasoning, they shouldn’t make it baseline !

• Elementalist : Blasting Staff: Area attacks with staff are larger. => Not needed if you don’t play staff ele, and if you does and don’t take, you don’t lose anything because you gain something else, right ?

• Thief : +1 Venom additional charges. => I mean, wtf is that anyway ?

• Guardian : Consecrated Ground (Consecration skills use ground targeting) => …
  Elite duration increase => clearly not needed
  Improved Spirit weapon duration => This won’t save them.

• Mesmer : List is too long and you get the point

And so on. Those baseline changes are only practical ones that are clearly not mandatory for the classes viability.

Having said that, why Fast Hands should be “needed” to earn the right to become baseline ? No. Reason.

To be honest though, I personally don’t really care about any of that. I’ve always played warrior and gameplay/balance have been completely reviewed along the years. It was good, it became bad, it was good again and so on… I always adapt because I like the class. Period.

But Fast Hands making it baseline wouldn’t bother me at all. After all, we’re one of the only classes not to have any trait becoming baseline.

If you are only concerned with it being in the current meta, then I don’t think there’s an issue as it is not going to become baseline in the current meta … no one else is getting their traits baselined in the current meta either.

As far as those examples, those were traits that ArenaNet noticed were always being taken when those weapons/utilites were being taken as they were quite sub-par instead. It’d be like your Greatsword (or any other weapon) being close to “bad” unless you took a particular trait. There is quite a difference between an individual weapon or utility skill type being “bad” unless you bandage it with a trait … and being able to weapon swap twice as often.

As another example, Illusionary Elasticity. This is a problematic trait. Why? Because how do you balance a Mesmer staff when without a trait it will only ever hit a target once but with that trait it can double-tap a target; effectively doubling its dps.

Thief Venom Share is quite similar to Illusionary Elasticity. With venoms now having a static number of charges, they become easier to balance.

Also, if you look at the baselines for Elementalist and Guardian, they are small Quality of Life improvements for one weapon and some utilities. I think we can both agree that none of them are nearly on par with reducing weapon swap cooldown by 5s.

I think Blasting Staff got snuck in there because … Elementalist … it always has to get stronger, right? :-p j/k … I think there were no other weapon traits for it to be combined with like was done with Ranger’s Longbow and Shortbow traits and some of the Ele Staff skills were actually quite puny without it (Lava Font being cited as one by the devs).

Even the Guardian elite duration is a very small change. Renewed Focuse has a base duration of 2s and that increases duration by 50% so that’s a change from 2 seconds to 3 seconds. If you look at the Guardian forum, they are looking at removing the Tomes and replacing them with something else, so it’s essentially just +1 second to Renewed Focuse.

That all said … looks like we basically agree at the core at least ;-)

You are a difficult one to convince, plus you make good points :P . But as a matter of fact, I think we do agree on the core.
Nonetheless I persist on saying that Fast Hands is not such an expendable trait as you seem to think.

You obviously seem to know your stuff about classes’ mechanics, weaknesses/strenghts and the game in itself so you have to admit that without this trait, warrior loses his spot in sPvP (I should have mentionned that I’m talking almost exclusively PvP-wise, which is another problem in the “balancing classes” matter).

I’m not talking about personal experiences like “I played without the trait and managed to do ok”, I’m talking about general balance between the classes. Otherwise, I can perfectly play sword + warhorn/LB with no traits and a zerker amulet and still manage to kill guys in hotjoin.

But as of today, no average to good warriors play without the trait (still PvP-wise) because you simply can’t : hammer becomes absolutely useless, greatsword loses most of its DPS and switching to LB becomes an unnecessary and unfair liability (because only two skills are good, the rest serves no purpose) compared to other classes’ switch.

Sure, when you don’t take it, you gain something else but I assure you that no warrior trait you can take makes it up for the DPS loss of not having Fast Hands.

As for the sigils, you have previously taken it backward : it’s not because we don’t have to take on swap sigils that Fast Hands is irrelevant, it’s because of Fast Hands allowing to mix more on swap sigils than other classes that makes it almost mandatory.

So currently, if we don’t take the trait, we become useless in any sPvP team composition. Now, as you mentionned, the current isn’t the issue, but the thing is : we don’t know what awaits either.

It will greatly depends on what upcoming changes bring. If the game balance stay the same between the “old” archetypes, it might be a problem. What I don’t want for the future is to be forced to take an entire branch to make any build viable in sPvP. If taking the branch allows build diversity, fine by me. I also don’t want to have to play with the Elite Specialization to make warrior (which won’t be warrior anymore) viable.

I think that’s why so many people ask for Fast Hands to become baseline : fear to lose build diversity when the update/expansion comes out. You have to understand that in current PvP, this is the trait that makes all our builds viable. Doing ok isn’t being viable, doing good is, and trust me I can dare (without boasting nor blushing) any warrior that plays without this trait to come and see me, I am serene as for the outcome.

So you can disagree with all this thread, but you can’t say this pledge is based only on warrior community “wanting” something.

P.S : +1 sec on Renewed Focus is a huge deal (still in PvP wise ).

Sebrent.3625:

@nicknamenick:
Unable to dispute the points?

I don’t disagree with fast hands being baseline (it does feel like a near “must have” on my Warrior) … though it could feel like the same “must have” that Deceptive Evasion does for many Mesmer builds.

I disagree with the people saying that other classes are getting several things made baseline so warrior should too.

You have a point. However, from where I stand, one of the very few unique strengths that a zerker warrior has is the instant swap Sigil damage with Fast Hands, which is what makes him able to fight back against a lot of other builds. The main problem iof a DPS Warrior is that he doesn’t bring anything to the table that other zerker classes already have. There’s just no way you can lose that trait.

And Adrenaline on hit is pretty much a must, because Warrior is balanced around spamming his F1 (really, what’s a Warrior without his constant Comb Shot?) and you can be totally Adrenaline starved if you don’t have it. Condi cleansing is great, but that’s worth the trait, adrenaline on his is pretty much a must for playing a Warrior in PvP imo.

@FatRaKoon:
Aye, you should pity my wife. She has to deal with me and my clones (my 2 sons).

From your post I think we’re still at that point where yes, Fast Hands is quite powerful and featured in most PvP builds in order to be viable, but we don’t have anything that says “yes it is required” and we don’t know how things will be in the future … so that seems like a result of:

• It is too early to be saying Fast Hands needs to be baseline … agreed?

I see what you’re saying with the sigils, but I have to again ask if the power gained from that is required or just very nice to have (I, personally, love the heck out of it … makes me sad to not have it when I’m on my other classes … aside from Engineer/Ele).
——-

@YuiRS:
I’m not a fan of anything that is some sort of “spam”. Anything that caters to that sort of gameplay is likely bad in my book. This is because I see “spam” as the opposite of “intelligent use”. “Spam” is using it whenever it’s available/off cooldown. “Intelligent use” is using it when it is ideal to do so … which, no, I don’t accept “whenever off cooldown” as a stretch that fits this.

Heck, if something is intended to be spammed whenever it is off cooldown, they should just make it some passive with an ICD that occurs every X seconds …

Spamming is bad … we should hope the game continues to move away from any sort of spamming. My opinion, of course.

What is it about the Fast Hands + Sigils that you feel is required for fighting some specific builds? You left it too general for me to really discuss this much with you. All I can say with the current information is that in the case where you have some builds for class X requiring something in order to be viable against some builds for class Y … that doesn’t require that something to be baseline. Now, if you require that something in order for a weapon, utilities, etc. to “not suck” … then you have an argument … which is what ArenaNet has done with many of the traits they are baselining.

Ultimately we don’t all agree on what is required for something to be viable in a given scenario, but I think we can get close enough … especially if we continue having a good discussion like this :-)

I’m not sure what it is that you think the Warrior is incapable of bringing that other Zerker builds are as you did not specify :-/ Surely it wasn’t damage as I’ve always said that I think warrior scales better than several other classes in group situations because it is designed around hitting hard but with telegraphs so if there is additional CC to hold someone down, they are going to meet the Warrior pain-train. …

side-note: I love using an Interrupt Mesmer build with a Warrior partner … there are few better ways to set someone up for a kill than having them dazed/stunned and immobilized :-)

Are you asking for a part of Cleansing Ire to be made baseline? The part where you gain adrenaline when hit? If so, I think that’s another entirely different topic aside from being a trait that is also becoming largely part of Warrior PvP builds to a degree that some could similarly claim that it’s becoming required.

Personally, for some weapon sets I think that’d be OP baseline while for others I can see why people would feel that Adrenaline when-hit would feel required.

Ultimately, I think we don’t have nearly enough information to make any informed decisions on whether or not Warrior actually needs anything baseline at the moment. Agreed?

Heck, Warrior is still quite solid in all 3 metas. Everything else is just QoL improvements like improving build diversity. It’s a much better position than other classes that are barely in one meta or in none at all.

Well, said like that, I think that we can’t but agree to that statement : it is too early to say “it is required” indeed. Let’s just hope that it won’t be (or that they can make it baseline afterward if it isn’t).
Actually, if we reverse all this problem : it would be nice if Fast Hands would become not required in order to make Warrior viable with several builds, this would be another way to achieve build diversity.

But yeah, we don’t have nearly enough information to make any decision. Some Elite Specs are even unknown as of yet !

Agreed

Obindo.6802:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Did anyone already find a viable warrior build without fast hands?

I dont get this posts that say that fast hands should not be made baseline. Every warrior already takes fast hands in their builds if he wants to be viable, so the only thing that would change is the build warrior takes, and that is really good.
People should not compare classes….

Nope!

I guess u can go something 6 0 6 0 2 with warr runes. Bad tho but I guess it’s ‘viable’

I actually do use a build of this description, although it’s some physical skill focused build I made that uses mending, so it’s extra bad.

The warrior runes are chosen to make up for the loss of fast hands, though the build would undoubtedly be more effective with fast hands present.

The funny thing is that the specialization changes will allow me to go 60606, so I’m going to be getting fast hands in that build anyways (don’t need arms or tactics in it).

I tried the build for a long time without the warrior runes, but I felt it was just way too much of a problem. As such, I swapped to warrior runes to try and compensate for it a bit.

I’m still not 100% sold on the idea of fast hands as a baseline characteristic of warriors, but I do agree that not having fast hands can severely reduce the effectiveness of many builds, particularly those that rely on certain weapon combos (i.e. skullcrack builds).

Yamsandjams.3267:

Obindo.6802:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Did anyone already find a viable warrior build without fast hands?

I dont get this posts that say that fast hands should not be made baseline. Every warrior already takes fast hands in their builds if he wants to be viable, so the only thing that would change is the build warrior takes, and that is really good.
People should not compare classes….

Nope!

I guess u can go something 6 0 6 0 2 with warr runes. Bad tho but I guess it’s ‘viable’

I actually do use a build of this description, although it’s some physical skill focused build I made that uses mending, so it’s extra bad.

The warrior runes are chosen to make up for the loss of fast hands, though the build would undoubtedly be more effective with fast hands present.

The funny thing is that the specialization changes will allow me to go 60606, so I’m going to be getting fast hands in that build anyways (don’t need arms or tactics in it).

I tried the build for a long time without the warrior runes, but I felt it was just way too much of a problem. As such, I swapped to warrior runes to try and compensate for it a bit.

I’m still not 100% sold on the idea of fast hands as a baseline characteristic of warriors, but I do agree that not having fast hands can severely reduce the effectiveness of many builds, particularly those that rely on certain weapon combos (i.e. skullcrack builds).

So, in the end warriors require Fast Hands to be viable in any type of game mode.
It could be cool if ANet dont force warriors to go in the last line. Lets see how it goes.

Sure … if you only read that last post and not the rest of the actual discussion that’s been taking place … and accept an anecdote as a fact to prove a point :-/

Fast hands is too strong to even be a minor trait. wont happen.

Warrior sprint? warrior has the best access to swiftness through traits, warhorn, and SoR right next to engi. highly unlikely to happen also

Sebrent.3625:

Sure … if you only read that last post and not the rest of the actual discussion that’s been taking place … and accept an anecdote as a fact to prove a point :-/

I read the discussion.
No viable build without FH. No one manage to show that FH is not mandatory to warrior be viable.
There is a lot more proofs (years of warrior builds) showing FH being a must in every viable build.

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

Fast hands is too strong to even be a minor trait. wont happen.

Warrior sprint? warrior has the best access to swiftness through traits, warhorn, and SoR right next to engi. highly unlikely to happen also

Even necro has good access to swiftness through traits and warhorn (perma swiftness) and spectral skills, also have the 25% speed increase with signet. Still it seems slow.

silentnight warrior.2714:

So, in the end warriors require Fast Hands to be viable in any type of game mode.

True.

We will take it either way, Baseline or not, strong or weak, that was never the issue, its the issue of less diversity of Warrior builds when warrior is forced to trait Discipline line no matter what.

The fact that we got 0 baseline traits while every other profession at least gets one (6 baselines traits for Mesmer) then i think we have the right to demand Fast Hands to be baseline, there is no other trait that is more important to warrior and actually class defining to the point which is destroying Warrior’s Build diversity in its current state .

silentnight warrior.2714:

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

Fast hands is too strong to even be a minor trait. wont happen.

Warrior sprint? warrior has the best access to swiftness through traits, warhorn, and SoR right next to engi. highly unlikely to happen also

Even necro has good access to swiftness through traits and warhorn (perma swiftness) and spectral skills, also have the 25% speed increase with signet. Still it seems slow.

Necro has no mobility whatsoever unlike warrior to make use of the ever so scarce swiftness and the crappy active effect of the locust sig not that it makes much of a diffrence.

Warhorn is not just a utility skill for swiftness, it isa huge life force generation tool, helps with added cripple to stay on the target for dagger auto attacks since necromancer lacks gap closers on weapon sets. The weapon is an option only on power builds. The skill can actually put you in combat when running around.

Only one spectral skill gives swiftness and it a stun break on 60 seconds cooldown. would be a waste to use for mere swiftness unlike SoR.

now compare this to the almighty warrior warhorn which i’d kill to have it on a necro along with its traits, Furious Speed/Reaction if you use arms ( at least I do use it) and a readily available warrior sprint on a adept trait that most warriors take and is even being merged with one of my most favorite traits on warrior, mobile strikes. yeah I totally would go into blood magic and use two daggers for similar effect on a master trait.

If you want to see how slow warrior is take a look at the ridiculous kiting and mobility in the I Exy I and Vaanss duels and how effective fast hands make a rotation. baseline? no thanks!

If you read, then are you saying that you are disagreeing with the rest of us about how we currently don’t have enough information to know whether or not Fast Hands will be req’d with the new Specialization changes? … or are you just saying it’s a requirement now?

If the former, please tell me how we have enough information to be informed if that will be the case?

If the latter, that’s not the topic since no class is getting any traits baseline before the Specialization changes.

Also, “the majority” doesn’t mean crap. Please, again, see all the times in human history where “the majority” has been dead wrong. There have also been times in the lifetime of this game where people have complained about some weapon, utility, etc. for a class until a good player finally posts a video and says “yeah, i’ve been using it all this time and it rocks”. Then their minds change.

As far as Necromancer mobility. There is far more to mobility than Swiftness and the +25% passive movement speed bonus.

Warrior has 2 abilities on Greatsword and 1 on Sword for extra mobility and both have that mobility improved with faster movespeed via the passive or Swiftness.

Warrior also has Bull’s Charge if they’d like to be a hardcore NIKE.

Necromancer only has their Wurm and Spectral Walk for additional movement. Both require the Necromancer to have been at or near the location they are wanting to teleport to. Both also have drastically longer cooldowns than the Warrior weapon skills that provide movement.

They have their Wurm and being able to teleport back to a place they came from via Spectral Walk.

ANET said " Warrior Rely on Speed" when describing Warrior

Since almost every profession will get passive +25% speed despite the stealth, ranged attacks and teleports, Warrior should get passive swiftness as Baseline to make ANET statement true.

First off, no class is getting +25% movespeed for free.

Second, do you think we have enough information about the changes to decide whether or not Warrior needs that as baseline?

Third, there are more ways to rely on speed than a passive movespeed buff. As discussed before, Warrior has multiple abilities that have additional movement built in … not to mention some of the easiest access to perma-swiftness in the game … which makes the +25% passive movespeed useless given that Swiftness doesn’t stack with the +25% movespeed … just overrides it.

Fourth, you’re quick to list off the things other classes have, but you seem to simply ignore the things that Warrior has. You also seem to ignore the things the other classes don’t have … we’ve been over this all before yet you are still doing this.

Juba.8406:

ANET said " Warrior Rely on Speed" when describing Warrior

Since almost every profession will get passive +25% speed despite the stealth, ranged attacks and teleports, Warrior should get passive swiftness as Baseline to make ANET statement true.

Relying on and having it passive are not the same thing. Warriors have a lot of access to swiftness and several leaps. They DO have speed. So they aren’t wrong.

And for the billionth time, Fast hands is only “mandatory” because its so kitten powerful. Anyone with access to it would say they “need” it. That’s not the reason things are being made baseline.

Also, you’re asking for hidden passives to be made baseline. That isn’t how baseline works. Anything made passive were changes to core abilities to make them more usable and not reliant on traits to be used. No where in the game is there class-specific passives that would justify Fast Hands or warriors sprint, it would be incredibly un-intuitive, where as making a weapon shoot faster baseline or throw all grenades baseline for grenade skills are just adjustments to their abilities that make them less reliant on traits.

I really don’t think you guys understand how this “baseline” stuff works and are just trying to seize the opportunity for freeby buffs. Like I’ve said, Warrior is my second most played class by a LOT, and sure, it’s incredibly hard to not want to take, but making it passive isn’t the answer. If anything, be happy its at least a minor so it doesn’t lock any of the choice locations like Cleansing Ire does. That’s the real elephant in the room.