Guild Wars 2

I couldn’t bear to read through pages and pages of posts that said the same thing, so please forgive me if this was already covered…..

The thread began with an observation that pretty much all warrior builds considered viable have fast hands, hence the conclusion that making all warriors have it would increase build diversity. I don’t think anyone would dispute this.

The counterpoint raised is that all warriors take it because it’s crazy powerful, so it’s the opportunity cost of not taking it that drives all warriors there, and making it baseline would represent way too much power creep.

To test the latter, we only have to ask, if fast hands was removed altogether, would warriors be viable against other classes? My feeling is no, but it’s an open question.

Still, removing the trait should also support build diversity in the same way as making it baseline. This test is to determine whether or not the trait is vital to the class’ viability.

Removing Fast Hands would logically lower the value of weapon-swapping (you’d swap less often). The consequences are:

• Weaker weapons rotations, because of the reduced CD’s synergies between weapons (including the burst skill). This means a reduced efficiency of the warrior, in both attacking and defending. This also means a reduced adrenaline building rate, since we’d be hitting less.
• Weaker effects of traits benefiting from weapon-swapping: condition cleansing (Brawler’s Recovery), might building (Versatile Power), adrenaline building (Versatile Rage).
• Weaker effects of burst-based features, because of the overall drop of the adrenaline building rate: less bursts means less condition cleansing (Cleansing Ire), less endurance regeneration (Building Momentum), less critical chance (Critical Burst, only interesting in “pulsing” bursts though).
• Reduced value of weapon-swapping sigils. The warrior, thanks to Fast Hands, can take great advantage of these sigils (though admittedly not as well as eles or engies).

As one can see, swapping weapons is critical for the warrior, it’s not just nice to have, the class is built around it. Removing Fast Hands would increase build diversity for sure, but would render the whole class mechanics not only inefficient, but also ineffective. One would have to significantly reengineer the class to make Fast Hands optional (and such a thing would go beyond a mere class specialization).

Well the answer to that question is undubitably a big fat “no”. There is currently no way for warrior to be viable (by viable I mean competitive) against any other class if Fast Hands is removed. Any decent warrior could never doubt that.

The entire class rely on this trait (except maybe for some PvE builds, but not the meta ones), the undeniable proof of my statement is that from the beginning of the game, no meta builds ever existed without Fast Hands (of course, meta doesn’t mean “best”, only most competitive at a given time).

Now the argument of our friend Sebrent here was to say that it was true, but also that we don’t have enough information on what is warrior going to be with the next big update/expansion. Maybe that the absence of Fast Hands becoming baseline will not change a thing.

I personally fear that this will hurt build diversity, because, sure we don’t know what i’ll be like, but I see no way of replacing Fast Hands with some other trait. This trait is a unique one in the entire game and if it’s not made baseline, then warriors will have to take an entire trait line just for this one trait, no matter what.

The only solution to avoid this would be that E. Spec. makes up for the huge DPS loss of not taking Fast Hands. Bu then again, all warriors would have to play the E. Spec.

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

Fast hands is too strong to even be a minor trait. wont happen.

Warrior sprint? warrior has the best access to swiftness through traits, warhorn, and SoR right next to engi. highly unlikely to happen also

Even necro has good access to swiftness through traits and warhorn (perma swiftness) and spectral skills, also have the 25% speed increase with signet. Still it seems slow.

Necro has no mobility whatsoever unlike warrior to make use of the ever so scarce swiftness and the crappy active effect of the locust sig not that it makes much of a diffrence.

Warhorn is not just a utility skill for swiftness, it isa huge life force generation tool, helps with added cripple to stay on the target for dagger auto attacks since necromancer lacks gap closers on weapon sets. The weapon is an option only on power builds. The skill can actually put you in combat when running around.

Only one spectral skill gives swiftness and it a stun break on 60 seconds cooldown. would be a waste to use for mere swiftness unlike SoR.

now compare this to the almighty warrior warhorn which i’d kill to have it on a necro along with its traits, Furious Speed/Reaction if you use arms ( at least I do use it) and a readily available warrior sprint on a adept trait that most warriors take and is even being merged with one of my most favorite traits on warrior, mobile strikes. yeah I totally would go into blood magic and use two daggers for similar effect on a master trait.

If you want to see how slow warrior is take a look at the ridiculous kiting and mobility in the I Exy I and Vaanss duels and how effective fast hands make a rotation. baseline? no thanks!

I didn´t said that necro was fast. I said that necro with all that seems slow. In the same way i was trying to explain why all that swifness on warrior is not a big deal. Warrior sprint was a upgrade from ANet to warriors because even with all that swiftness they were unable to catch anyone. Same with criple on sword auto.
Those changes were a “fix” to warrior.

Btw i´ve seen duels with more kiting than that by other classes.

Juba.8406:

The fact that we got 0 baseline traits while every other profession at least gets one (6 baselines traits for Mesmer) then i think we have the right to demand Fast Hands to be baseline, there is no other trait that is more important to warrior and actually class defining to the point which is destroying Warrior’s Build diversity in its current state .

Aww, but but look what everyone else got! Warrior got nothing because it is already in a much better place than those classes that got things made baseline. You have no right to demand anything based upon a class balance that is meant to bring the other classes UP to where Warrior is already. FH is not destroying War build diversity, warriors are. Simply put, FH is so powerful, it has become mandatory. That is less of a reason to make it baseline, not more.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Warrior got nothing because it is already in a much better place

No its not.

Sebrent.3625:

If you read, then are you saying that you are disagreeing with the rest of us about how we currently don’t have enough information to know whether or not Fast Hands will be req’d with the new Specialization changes? … or are you just saying it’s a requirement now?

If the former, please tell me how we have enough information to be informed if that will be the case?

If the latter, that’s not the topic since no class is getting any traits baseline before the Specialization changes.

Also, “the majority” doesn’t mean crap. Please, again, see all the times in human history where “the majority” has been dead wrong. There have also been times in the lifetime of this game where people have complained about some weapon, utility, etc. for a class until a good player finally posts a video and says “yeah, i’ve been using it all this time and it rocks”. Then their minds change.

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As far as Necromancer mobility. There is far more to mobility than Swiftness and the +25% passive movement speed bonus.

Warrior has 2 abilities on Greatsword and 1 on Sword for extra mobility and both have that mobility improved with faster movespeed via the passive or Swiftness.

Warrior also has Bull’s Charge if they’d like to be a hardcore NIKE.

Necromancer only has their Wurm and Spectral Walk for additional movement. Both require the Necromancer to have been at or near the location they are wanting to teleport to. Both also have drastically longer cooldowns than the Warrior weapon skills that provide movement.

They have their Wurm and being able to teleport back to a place they came from via Spectral Walk.

Right now FH is a must in all builds and no one can say otherwise.
If it would be a must in the future? No one here knows, (i would like it to NOT be mandatory, but that means some changes (bufs) to warrior rotations).

As for necro mobility see my last post. You also forget Dark Path.

About the majority, your example is not the rule, its the exception.

I’d say making it so that we gain adrenaline on getting hit baseline would be a better start then this. Sure, Discipline will remain mandatory for every build, but it’s not a bad traitline by all means.

Adrenaline on hit fits the class and allows us to not take Cleansing Ire for the first time ever. Whereas CI would remain powerful without the adrenaline gain.

Absolutely, I didn’t mention it because it was off topic but this would clearly be the best choice. Better take the whole Discipline traitline than the defense one.
Cleansing Ire is currently the trait that takes away our build diversity, not Fast Hands (well at least not as strongly).

FatRaKoon.1782:

Absolutely, I didn’t mention it because it was off topic but this would clearly be the best choice. Better take the whole Discipline traitline than the defense one.
Cleansing Ire is currently the trait that takes away our build diversity, not Fast Hands (well at least not as strongly).

It could be possible to build a viable warrior build without CI if adrenaline on getting it was a thing. You got 3 lines that give you cleanses (on heal, with warhorn and on weapon swap (the last GM trait require FH to be usefull).

FatRaKoon.1782:

Absolutely, I didn’t mention it because it was off topic but this would clearly be the best choice. Better take the whole Discipline traitline than the defense one.
Cleansing Ire is currently the trait that takes away our build diversity, not Fast Hands (well at least not as strongly).

This is subjective though. Sure, without Cleansing Ire, your condition mitigation on warrior is so lackluster that you pretty much have to take it in the competitive scene (along with longbow for this very reason). However, give me one viable build without Fast Hands? One would not get rekt as hard by condi’s without Fast Hands as you would without CI, but it does make you so much weaker that you still have to take it. This means, that even if our condi management options get expanded through the patch, that you still have to take discipline, which inevitably reduces build options, even though Discipline is probably our best traitline, after Defense.

FatRaKoon.1782:

Absolutely, I didn’t mention it because it was off topic but this would clearly be the best choice. Better take the whole Discipline traitline than the defense one.
Cleansing Ire is currently the trait that takes away our build diversity, not Fast Hands (well at least not as strongly).

Viable builds already exist that don’t use Cleansing Ire (not many, but they exist). More so after HoT drops because of the additional condi cleanse options in the revised trait lines.

There are several traits that help adren building. It’s the combination of the best addren building and condi clearing options into one trait that make CI so appealing, but it’s not indispensable (even as an adren builder).

I don’t think the same can be said about Fast Hands, tbh. But perhaps the people who were claiming it’s just a really good trait can make the case that warriors would still be viable if the trait was removed entirely.

I get your point but that’s not actually what I meant when I said that “Cleansing Ire is currently the trait that takes away our build diversity, not Fast Hands”.

My mistake for not making myself clear enough !

To clear things up a little bit, I absolutely agree with your statement. I already previously discussed it with Sebrent in the 4th page of this topic. To me Fast Hands is a must have. Period.

What I meant when I said that CI was more restrictive than Fast Hands regarding our build diversity was that the Discipline traitline is our best, as you said. I mean, in the current meta, even if Fast Hands didn’t exist in that branch, I would probably take it nonetheless, whereas if CI wasn’t in the Defense line, I would probably favor Strenght or Arms branch more (maybe 2 for Dogged March but that’s all).

That’s what I meant when I said CI was more restrictive than Fast Hands : CI forces us to go at least 4 in a branch that’s not optimal in istelf for DPS builds (sPvP wise) whereas Fast Hands is 3 and almost every competitive builds use the full line anyway.

This is still subjective but I hope that I made myself clearer

Elegie.3620 makes some good points.

As far as the traits, those traits that synergize with Fast Hands are in the same specialization line, so I don’t see the issue. If you don’t take that specialization, you won’t have Fast Hands but you also won’t have those other traits that synergize so well with Fast Hands.

As far as the others, yes they synergize wonderfully with Fast Hands. That is obvious, but instead of trying to synergize with Fast Hands, you can try to synergize with some other aspect(s) of the class. Several new options are opening up with the new Specialization system and I don’t think anyone thinks those shouldn’t be explored.

@Juba:
I’m sorry, but you’re misinformed. Warrior is in a great place right now since they are a solid part of all three metas (PvE, sPvP, and WvW). The only thing “missing” is a lack of build diversity, but that is still better than several other classes that are barely part of a single meta or not part of any meta at all.

As far as what was said about Warrior cleansing without Cleansing Ire…

Cleansing Ire used to not even exist in the game and Warrior’s still did more than fine. Warriors do have other condition removal options. In fact, Warriors have had more options than some other classes for quite some time. Cleansing Ire is just that good. It’s one of those traits that is far above the rest on the power curve (not just Warrior traits but other classes’ traits as well).

Cleansing Ire gives you a condi cleanse on as low as a 7s cooldown … two, actually since you have two burst skills on separate cooldowns. It is only limited by your adrenaline which the trait also helps considerably with as well. It is extremely powerful. If you compare that to other condi cleanses in the game, it blows them out of the water. Even better is that it is a single non-GM trait with no weapon/heal/utility/elite skill requirements … aside from you being able to not flub your burst skills which is easier with some weapons than with others.

In the end, I think we all want the same things

• Balanced gameplay for all classes
• Fun gameplay for all classes

An underpowered warrior is no fun … nor is any other overpowered class
An overpowered warrior is no fun. … nor is any other underpowered class

Currently we don’t know how the trait changes are going to shift the meta.
Currently we don’t know how the condition changes are going to shift the meta.
Heck, we don’t even know if the changes to stats on gear are going to shift the meta.

We don’t have much information and sadly are, in my opinion, wasting a large amount of time debating “Fast Hands is a requirement now” instead of looking at possible new synergies that might make you want to give up on taking Discipline (and Fast Hands with it) in favor of the power you gain from those other synergies

Elegie.3620:

Removing Fast Hands would logically lower the value of weapon-swapping (you’d swap less often). The consequences are:

• Weaker weapons rotations, because of the reduced CD’s synergies between weapons (including the burst skill). This means a reduced efficiency of the warrior, in both attacking and defending. This also means a reduced adrenaline building rate, since we’d be hitting less.
• Weaker effects of traits benefiting from weapon-swapping: condition cleansing (Brawler’s Recovery), might building (Versatile Power), adrenaline building (Versatile Rage).
• Weaker effects of burst-based features, because of the overall drop of the adrenaline building rate: less bursts means less condition cleansing (Cleansing Ire), less endurance regeneration (Building Momentum), less critical chance (Critical Burst, only interesting in “pulsing” bursts though).
• Reduced value of weapon-swapping sigils. The warrior, thanks to Fast Hands, can take great advantage of these sigils (though admittedly not as well as eles or engies).

As one can see, swapping weapons is critical for the warrior, it’s not just nice to have, the class is built around it. Removing Fast Hands would increase build diversity for sure, but would render the whole class mechanics not only inefficient, but also ineffective. One would have to significantly reengineer the class to make Fast Hands optional (and such a thing would go beyond a mere class specialization).

You make me wonder if ANet removed FH, if they would make warrior more efective with their skills after.

@silentnight.warrior:
What is it that you’re wanting to be “more effective” as far as Warrior weapon skills are concerned? They already have some of the highest damage coefficients in the game on top of the other niceties.

The thing you have to consider with Elegie’s post is, yes, it does make those things weaker … but weaker from what? There’s is a big difference between something extremely strong becoming weaker and something average becoming weaker.

Sebrent.3625:

@silentnight.warrior:
What is it that you’re wanting to be “more effective” as far as Warrior weapon skills are concerned? They already have some of the highest damage coefficients in the game on top of the other niceties.

The thing you have to consider with Elegie’s post is, yes, it does make those things weaker … but weaker from what? There’s is a big difference between something extremely strong becoming weaker and something average becoming weaker.

It appears you’re saying warrior is one of the most powerful classes in the game, if not the most powerful. Is that correct? Until now, I assumed you were just saying warrior had a role in each of the three game modes

Also, to you, if Anet simply removed fast hands from the game, how viable do you think warriors would be in relation to other classes? Specifically thinking Wvw and PvP here… pve is pretty broad, and “being optimal” only matters for dungeon runs.

Let’s get something clear so I’m not misinterpreted …
There is a difference between “most powerful” and “solidly in the meta”.

Now, you can be “solidly in the meta” because of how powerful your class is, but they are two separate things.

The Warrior is part of the metas because of how viable they are to the current content. In PvE that content doesn’t change as much, but in PvP (sPvP and WvW) it does. The Warrior has been solid enough and versatile enough to have a solid position in the meta despite changes in the PvP metas over the years.

If Fast Hands was removed, I think some smart warriors would figure it out. Heck, some currently think you can’t do anything without Cleansing ire … but Warriors were doing without cleaning ire for quite some time.

Sebrent.3625:

If Fast Hands was removed, I think some smart warriors would figure it out. Heck, some currently think you can’t do anything without Cleansing ire … but Warriors were doing without cleaning ire for quite some time.

Hmm… Your first statement is pretty broad. What would “smart warriors” figure out ? How to keep playing their class although being aware of the fact that they can’t be competitive anymore ? Because that’s exactly what it would be.

In the current state of things, no warrior however smart he is could possibly make a viable build without Fast Hands (sadly, I amdit it).

As for the CI, you must put things into perspective : those who say they can’t play without it are probably the ones that seek success in higher levels of sPvP. To my mind, playing without CI is somewhat less prejudicial than playing without Fast Hands but it’s still shooting yourself in the foot.

Yes, it was broad. I was being rushed to lunch for a coworker that is leaving. Sorry. It doesn’t really require too much more elaboration though. There are always those people playing each class that turn the class on its head as they test everything they can and find what works well given what they have. Look at Rangers even before Longbow was anywhere close to viable. There were already plenty of us playing Ranger and doing quite well despite all the people claiming that the class was garbage and was just a free kill. Many of us still do quite well without using Longbow … in fact some even think it’s still inferior to other Ranger options.

I have yet to see a solid reason why it is required for a warrior to have fast hands. Each reason given so far was shared with at least 2 others classes … who do fine without Fast Hands. Now you can say those classes have X, Y, Z, but then you could also list what the Warrior has and what each of them don’t have. We’ve already done that for a few pages now. It’s been pretty fruitless.

Now, given that Fast Hands is an option, is it more powerful than not having it? Quite likely given the way Burst Skills work and the low cooldowns on several weapon skills (especially Burst Skills). But being more powerful doesn’t mean it is required.

There is a large difference between “viable” and “more powerful”. I think Warrior is “viable” without Fast Hands. I think Warrior is “more powerful” with Fast Hands.

Currently, I think:

• Most, if not all, Warrior builds are more powerful with Fast Hands
• Warrior can still be quite viable/powerful even without Fast Hands … they are still quite competitive with other classes
• We don’t have nearly enough information to tell if Fast Hands will/won’t have some actual competition from other traits/builds with the upcoming changes
• I think we don’t have nearly enough information to know whether or

@Sebrent
This is a very easy test to validate your claims. We know the other classes are viable without fast hands, the question is whether warriors are.

To find out, we only have to find builds that don’t use the trait but are still viable. It’s a challenge that’s open to anyone, and it’s not as though there aren’t plenty of ways to test those builds in a variety of circumstances. You say they’re currently competitive without FH vs other classes, so can you provide some sample builds we can test?

Appealing to exceptional skill that some players have to win with suboptimal builds isn’t a valid response. It injects an additional variable into the mix and, frankly, those exceptional players would arguably win more if they were running builds that weren’t relatively weak.

Either fast hands is critical to a warrior’s competitive viability or it’s not. The answer to that directly weighs into the appropriate response to the lack of diversity the OP brought up.

Sebrent.3625:

@Juba:
I’m sorry, but you’re misinformed. Warrior is in a great place right now since they are a solid part of all three metas (PvE, sPvP, and WvW).

PvE ? you can have it, really using PvE as an argument dude ?
sPvP ? shoutbow ? No thank you, ANET should just delete longbow because only then warrior will be exposed as not viable at all in sPvP.
WvW ? not anymore with stability nerf, roaming is still good.

Sebrent.3625:

Currently, I think:

• Most, if not all, Warrior builds are more powerful with Fast Hands
• Warrior can still be quite viable/powerful even without Fast Hands … they are still quite competitive with other classes
• We don’t have nearly enough information to tell if Fast Hands will/won’t have some actual competition from other traits/builds with the upcoming changes
• I think we don’t have nearly enough information to know whether or

The thing is : in my opinion, you are mixing things up. Obviously, being powerful isn’t the same thing as being required. True. Except that Fast Hands isn’t just powerful, it is required in the current meta in order to be competitive as a warrior.

Besides, reasons behind Fast Hands being required cannot be shared with any other classes for Fast Hands is a unique trait that has no equivalent whatsoever.

Again, you keep saying that you have no solid proof that this trait is required but in fact, yes you do : just play warrior and you’ll see for yourself. If you can play in ranked or unranked arenas without Fast Hands and still manage to get a fair amount of wins, you either get carried by really good teammates or your opponents have an absolutely terrible skill level. I mean objectively.

Lastly, the “not enough information” argument has some flaws too. I mean, every other classes’ traits that have been made baseline didn’t bother to wait for information and besides, all of them have been made baseline based on the current meta, so why not warrior ?

Anyway, I believe this debate has no purpose since it depends on what you want to achieve with your class. As a PvPer with quite a good level (I’m no ESL though), I can see why Fast Hands is a must have and not just powerful, this is the base of every build and any ESL warrior will thell you this. But for more casual players (not an insult or anything), I can understand that this issue is not really one.

In the end, I guess thas the real answer to this is : wait & see.

@Juba :

sPvP ? shoutbow ? No thank you, ANET should just delete longbow because only then warrior will be exposed as not viable at all in sPvP.

Deleting LB wouldn’t make warrior unviable. Try again.

Sebrent.3625:

• Warrior can still be quite viable/powerful even without Fast Hands … they are still quite competitive with other classes

Wrong!

Dude you clearly know nothing about warrior, i really suggest you pick it without FH and try it in sPvP and please pick something other than a dead brain shoutbow or better yet try without a longbow.

@Choppy:
Are the other classes fine?

• Ranger isn’t a part of any meta.
• Necromancer is only part of the GWEN meta and some would argue that Necro is the least necessary part of it.
• Engineer is only part of the sPvP meta.
• Mesmer is only part of the PvE speed run meta
• Thief is part of sPvP and PvE meta

Only three classes are solidly part of all 3 metas and Warrior is one of them (other two are Guardian/Elementalist if you’re checking).

That being said, the metas could all be changing with the upcoming changes to Specializations, Conditions, etc.

@FatRaKoon
I disagree that Fast Hands it is required to be “competitive”. I agree that Fast Hands appears to currently required to be “the most competitive.” Some classes can’t even achieve a position in “the most competitive”. Check class/build uses for recent tournaments, who/what is winning, and metabattle info and you’ll see this.

While not really the point, why can’t fast hands be shared with any other class? It is code. If ArenaNet wanted to, they could.

This is anecdotal on both side, not objective, but … Currently, playing in [un]ranked, you can still be competitive without Fast Hands. You will just not be as competitive as you would be with it. Do you see the difference? More anecdote … go play your Warrior with Fast Hands. Then play a class that isn’t even part of the meta. Then play your warrior without Fast hands. I imagine you will find that the Warrior without Fast Hands is not vastly inferior to the non-meta class.

The other classes getting some traits baseline does not mean the “not enough information” argument is flawed. ArenaNet made the decision about those traits needing to be baseline for those classes. ArenaNet has far more information about gameplay than we do as well as knowledge about the direction they want for the game and each class. Compare that to this just players asking for some traits baseline and there is an enormous difference.

FYI, your comment about competitive versus casual could be taken as an insult to those that disagree with you about Fast Hands as it appears as if you’re saying that casuals only think Fast Hands isn’t needed baseline.

I agree that the answer is still “wait & see”. There could very well become builds that make it quite worth it to not take Discipline as one of your 3 specializations because the synergy between those other 3 is enough to warrant not taking Discipline (i.e. Fast Hands et el.). I again assert that it’d be a better use of time looking into that than debating whether or not Fast Hands needs to be baseline …

ArenaNet currently doesn’t believe Fast Hands needs to be baseline and they have more information than any of us.

@Juba:
First off, there are three parts of the game. If you don’t play one part, great, but that doesn’t make it not matter.

Second, I’m well aware that warrior is locked into Shouts in the current sPvP. Between them and Elementalists, they have largely kicked condi builds out of that meta. The build is quite powerful. This goes back to “powerful” and “viable”. Shout is currently seen as the most powerful Warrior build for sPvP, so it is what is requested from Warriors. This does not mean that other builds could not compete as well as other classes other builds. Look at those classes which barely (if at all) get into sPvP at the higher levels due to their position in the meta. Warrior is as strong if not stronger than those when not spec’d for shouts.

Third, I guess, by your logic, since you believe I don’t know a thing about Warrior due to not thinking Fast Hands is required that you also think ArenaNet does not either? After all, ArenaNet didn’t give Fast Hands as a baseline to Warrior.

I’ll note one last time:
There is a difference between: “is it viable” and “is it as/more/less powerful”.

There is something i need to know.
When specialization is here, people will only have that option/build to play?

When we get the Specialization system (which we were told will be before the expansion is released), the old trait system will be gone. So, yes, you will only have the Specialization system as an option.

This means that you will only be able to pick 3 Specializations … as displayed by the calculator created by that_shaman

• http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AggBqAKoA6g~

So, under that system, you need to weigh each Specialization in its entirety to decide whether or not it should be one of your three. There’s no more saving 3 points to get Fast Hands. However, you now get 3 Major Adept, 3 Major Master, and 3 Major Grandmaster Traits and 9 Minor Traits.

I was talking about the warrior specialization like the chronomancer or the reaper. I believe those specialization give extra traits.

Oh, the new ones.
The current 5 are “Core Specializations”. You can pick any 3 of them you want.

The new traits are “Elite Specializations”. They will be released with the expansion and you can pick only 1 Elite Specialization as one of your 3 specializations. Picking the Elite Specialization is the same as the Core Specializations as far as traits go. There are no “extra traits”, but it will bring “new traits” as options. However, the Elite Specializations are all looking to (1) Add access to a new weapon (2) Add access to a new skill type (3) Add to or Modify your class mechanic(s)

Thanks

That means that all current warrior builds could be played after the specialization (the same for all classes).
With this we have already information about what warriors need to be viable in the current meta and in the previous metas (CI and FH).
What we lack is the information about if the elite specialization will remove this must have traits or not.
We, warriors from the begining know what was warrior before CI, (it was not played at top level and was considered the easiest class to defeat by every class). We also know what was warrior before warrior sprint.

About the damage coefficients being high, we also know (in sPvP) that shoutbow without sigil procs is bad and the only reason to take shoutbow is for condition cleanses against heavy condition teams, not for the damage it does. (I still kill shoutbows with conditions btw).
In PvE warriors are taken to give might to the damage dealer classes, and not because they do a lot of damage.
In WvWvW warriors are less everyday mostly because the stability changes. They were used for control (Hammer Stun).

Maybe the elite specialization will change this, but if not, i believe ANet should make some traits baseline because those traits will be used again and again.

When Specs comes without making (Fast Hands + Warrior Sprint) Baseline.

All Warriors will be spec into DEF + DISC before even considering anything else.

If current status remains the New SPEC will compete with only STR (TACT/ARMS abit).

If ANET wants warriors to pick the new SPEC over (DEF/DISC),, then they need to do something that overshadows Cleansing Ire/Fast Hands.

For CI i think its possible but i don’t think they can introduce a trait that can compete with FH.

@Sebrent
You’re talking about group comp, not class or build viability. Meaning, warrior has its role in those things because of what it brings that others don’t.

By that rationale, mesmers are core to large scale Wvw because of portals and veils. Though mesmers are viable, it’s not because of the things they brought to the party.

Your measure for viability seems off to me by a lot.

@silentknight.warrior
I disagree. We don’t already have the information required.

Have you not looked at…

• What the new traits are?
• How some traits have been combined? … heck Shout traits are now just one trait in a single Specialization.
• What traits can now all be taken together since you will be able to take 3 Major traits per Specialization in 3 Specializations? … closest you can do to that in the current system is 6 in two traitlines and 2 in the last one. That’s 2 Minor traits and 2 Major traits more than we can currently do.
• How stats are no longer attached to traitlines so now putting points into Arms/Tactics isn’t a DPS loss because you no longer have to consider the 300 Power/Precision/Ferocity/etc. that you could have gotten from investing in another traitline.

Those changes alone open up all sorts of new options.

Killing a shoutbow 1v1 with a condition build is not the issue in the meta. It’s using conditions in a meta that often features 2 Elementalists and a Warrior Shout build on the same team. That group cleansing is a large hindrance to Condi builds in the meta. It has been discussed quite a bit in all sorts of current sPvP discussions.

In PvE, Warriors are brought because they can bring loads of Might, Banners, Fury, Vulnerability, and still do solid damage.

In WvW Warriors are most often used for Hammer and/or Condition cleanse.

There are several topics on these and metabattle also features them. Was there a point to bringing these up?

@Juba:
And you know all warriors will take those why? Because you’ve already playtested all the new possibilities opening up with the new Specialization system including the new Warrior Elite Specialization? I imagine you are able to tell how the metas will shift too, eh?

You are just pulling stuff out your bum and providing nothing to the conversation.

@Choppy:
Do you see groups asking for multiple mesmers for those portals/veils/mass invis? As many as you do for Warriors/Guardians/Eles/Necros for GWEN? No, you don’t. You have a handful at best of “pocket Mesmers”.

Even with the “pocket Mesmers” getting some spots… what about the Engineers? Rangers? Thieves? … I do remember (and miss) the days when my Entangle was not limited to multiple targets which made my Ranger desirable for zerg busting :-( … so I’m aware of how small changes can make or break things … I’m just not convinced at the moment with Fast Hands as I see several new doors opening up with the new Specialization system.

You are correct that I’m talking about viability in group comps … because most of the content is done in groups. PvE Speedruns are groups. sPvP is groups. WvW is often zergs.

If you are wanting to talk about dueling, dungeon soloing, open world, etc. … we can talk about that as well. That is a very different animal.

Sebrent.3625:

@Juba:
And you know all warriors will take those why? Because you’ve already playtested all the new possibilities opening up with the new Specialization system including the new Warrior Elite Specialization? I imagine you are able to tell how the metas will shift too, eh?

You are just pulling stuff out your bum and providing nothing to the conversation.

LoL im the one providing nothing ?

Dude you don’t even play warrior, you know not even one bit of what you are talking about, making just lengthy rubbery statements that literally added 0 point to this thread, you are here to troll us, just a quick look at your posts shows how biased you are, yeah right 6 baseline traits for Mesmer is totally fine eh ?

To hell with the new possibilities, we already locked in DEF+DISC, we already need a change to our core traits.

While Sebrent has shown bias by looking at his post history that does not add anything to the argument. Post if all the poster that are completely for the idea are just as bias, only their bias is focused on warrior.

If we look at what could happen you realize that they could very well move fast hand to be a major trait and where would that leave warrior?

The general arguments that have been shown here all boil down to you choose not to go without traiting Discpline and that is fine as you have weighs your options and made a choice that is what builds are about. Base lining a trait as strong as fast hands would have to come with adjustments across both weapon skills and the remaining trait line, but I do not think the ones wanting this change have even given that much thought so long as they receive one of the strongest minor traits in the game a a freebee.

Bran.7425:

While Sebrent has shown bias by looking at his post history that does not add anything to the argument. Post if all the poster that are completely for the idea are just as bias, only their bias is focused on warrior.

If we look at what could happen you realize that they could very well move fast hand to be a major trait and where would that leave warrior?

The general arguments that have been shown here all boil down to you choose not to go without traiting Discpline and that is fine as you have weighs your options and made a choice that is what builds are about. Base lining a trait as strong as fast hands would have to come with adjustments across both weapon skills and the remaining trait line, but I do not think the ones wanting this change have even given that much thought so long as they receive one of the strongest minor traits in the game a a freebee.

You too are no different, read past posts for the answer to your points.

@Sebrent
Thieves are an integral part of Wvw gank squads, and they, along with mesmers, can do incredible havoc work like no other classes. Engineers are an excellent dueling class, and are pretty spectacular from roaming to mid sized fights. Rangers… at least a couple of servers are getting reputations for the sheer number of rangers they’re fielding, so something’s working for them in Wvw too.

The OP noted that warriors are hampered in their diversity because of the need to take Fast Hands. The new content arguably exacerbates that because now 1/3 of a warriors traits will be devoted to that line instead of 3/14.

While it’s true that Anet is making quite a few changes to traits that will open up new options, there’s nothing in the announced trait changes that factor into the class mechanic that makes Fast Hands so crucial. That isn’t the case with CI, imo, but it’s true for Fast Hands.

The people who brought up Illusionary Persona were right to. IP is a key grandmaster trait that increases the damage of any mesmer shatter build by at least 1/3. Making it baseline along with putting attributes to gear instead of traits will go a long way to increasing the diversity of mesmers built around their class’ core mechanic, and that’s a good thing.

Fast Hands is completely analogous for warriors as IP is for mesmers, except FH isn’t a grandmaster and viable mesmer builds without IP actually exist.

Given that all warriors running viable builds already run FH, making it baseline would contribute nothing to power creep of the class, but it would support build diversity which is clearly an objective Anet has in mind with the HoT rebuild. Moreover, neither making FH baseline or leaving it as is will do anything to the place warriors (or others) have in GWEN, or any other group comp.

This whole thread has been about build diversity, but your argument doesn’t appear to be about that at all. Frankly, it doesn’t seem like you’re saying a baseline FH would be too powerful anymore either. Rather, it seems like you’re saying warriors already have nice stuff (basically, a place throughout the game) so they should accept the lack of diversity as some sort of cost for being invited to all the parties. If so, it’s not a strong argument against the proposition.

Bran.7425:

If we look at what could happen you realize that they could very well move fast hand to be a major trait and where would that leave warrior?

I don’t really understand what you mean by this ? I mean moving Fast Hands to be a major trait wouldn’t matter one bit for when the Specialization system comes out we are compelled to take entire traitlines anyway, so wherever they put it doesn’t matter at all.

Besides, Fast Hands will always be a better choice anyway than any other major trait we already have.

Choppy.4183:

The people who brought up Illusionary Persona were right to. IP is a key grandmaster trait that increases the damage of any mesmer shatter build by at least 1/3. Making it baseline along with putting attributes to gear instead of traits will go a long way to increasing the diversity of mesmers built around their class’ core mechanic, and that’s a good thing.

Fast Hands is completely analogous for warriors as IP is for mesmers, except FH isn’t a grandmaster and viable mesmer builds without IP actually exist.

Given that all warriors running viable builds already run FH, making it baseline would contribute nothing to power creep of the class, but it would support build diversity which is clearly an objective Anet has in mind with the HoT rebuild. Moreover, neither making FH baseline or leaving it as is will do anything to the place warriors (or others) have in GWEN, or any other group comp.

This.

Parktou.4263:

Warriors only have a couple sources of sustainable defense and that’s Adrenal Health and the Healing signet, which is why so many warriors(the ones not getting blown up immediately) use it as a heal and will continue to do so even after the specializations patch and the xpac comes out.

Mending being a physical skill and possibly getting the cooldown reduced to 16secs is a good start to help it compete with HS but the fact remains that almost every warrior build has either Defense for AH or Discipline for fast hands and warriors sprint. Why not make some of these baseline, warrior probably has the least build diversity of any profession in the game and so far the proposed changes aren’t doing much to change that.

If Fast Hands and Adrenal Health are low enough on the totem pole to be minor traits than why not just make one or both of them baseline for the profession?

The lack of build diversity is self imposed on warrior, shoutbow is not the only viable spec, gs lb is not the only viable spec axe/sh lb is not the only viable spec, hambow is not the only viable spec, axe bow is not the only viable spec. Anyone who thinks warrior has a build diversity problem is creating it in their own mind not in reality, you can run anything + gs with a 40406 traitline and be fine, 20606 or 00626 work great, 60026 or 60206 work really well for axe/sh lb burst builds and 00464 is a meta shoutbow build. Warrior has the best build diversity excluding the fact that you need 3 in the last line….. but eles pretty much needs at least xxx44, mesmer have to take x4xxx, necromancer has to take nothing universally but Condi must go x4xxx and power has to take 6xxxx (almost required 62006), guardians must take either xx6xx
Or xxx66, ranger just works/ doesn’t work…. and thief has to take xxxx6 for pretty much any useful build.

Sebrent.3625:

There are several topics on these and metabattle also features them. Was there a point to bringing these up?

Because you talked about warrior having high damage coeficients and i was trying to explain that those damage coeficients dont make a diference. Warrior is used in all metas but not for the damage it brings but for the suport instead.

Its the same with mesmers / rangers / thiefs / guardians / engi / necros / eles. Some have lower damage coeficients but are more viable as damage dealers.

A very good example is ranger, They can bring many (in some ways OP) damage from far away, but that makes them viable at top tier?

So in the end is about how you can survive / deal damage / suport that makes a class viable or not. Right know warrior is viable because of the suport it brings.

Right now warrior can only choose one line in three. All the builds use at least x.×.4.×.3.
After specialization, if the elite specialization dont fix the mandatory traits for warrior, we will play x.×.6.×.6 and we will only be able to choose the elite specialization or other trait line.

What warrior asks is a free trait line to choose. like x.×.6.×.x. Better build diversity.

First off, you can say I don’t know Warrior, I’m biased, etc. etc. … but, currently, as it stands, ArenaNet agrees with me … otherwise wouldn’t it be baseline? Just saying.

I guess you all have more data about overall gameplay and know the direction of the game better, eh? :-D

@Juba:
See attachment. Solid performance as a warrior in a darn close game. Not some win in some bull**** landslide. Took a pic when this happened about a month ago as it was a darn good game and everyone in it was so sportsmanlike, it was wonderful …well, except for that one Thief with the hateful anti-Ranger name. Amusingly, that Ranger on his team saved his butt several times that game.

I’ve explained already the Mesmer ones, but apparently reading “is hard”.

• Do random AOEs prevent Warriors from using their class mechanic? Nope. Well they do for Mesmer. So ArenaNet made Illusionary Persona baseline sit it allows at least a single-illusion shatter even when your illusions are being “whoops’d” to death.
• Do you realize that it is much harder to balance skills when a single trait can make them do twice as much damage? Well Illusionary Elasticity did that so they made it baseline.
• Do you actually think increasing the range of Manipulation abilities is the same power level as Fast Hands? This falls into the list of traits made baseline because they were so lackluster and should have just been baseline for those abilities.
• Protective Mantras … First, few Mesmers are going to benefit from this because a large part of the Mesmer community dislike Mantras. Second, it is just like the range increase on Manipulation abilities. They said so in the specialization reveal that it should have just been made baseline. It’s not strong enough to be a trait and the skills were lacking so they solved two birds with one stone.
• Phantasmal Damage increased … because otherwise it took 2 separate traitlines just to get Phantasmal Damage to the point where the Mesmer can do the same sustained DPS with 3 phantasms up … assuming none get “whoops’d” to death.

You need to stop just counting the traits and actually look at what the heck they are.

@Choppy
Yes, and thank God there are Havoc/Gank squads else I’d be bored out of my mind in WvW. But the overall fighting is dictated by the zergs due to how much the current maps cater to the zerg-meta. Again, how many people are in a small roaming gank/havoc squad? How many in the big zerg deathballs? So which classes do you think has more slots in WvW that they’re desired for? Also, I’ve not really seen anyone complain about having any of the GWEN classes in their Havoc group … just non-GWEN in the zerg.

I do not think Fast Hands is analagous to Illusionary Persona. If random AOE/cleave causes you to be unable to use Burst Skills, then we can talk about this more. I’ve never had a random AOE/cleave prevent my burst skill … unless we’re going to stretch this and be downed or CC’d by it … but if we allowed that stretch then every skill is analogous to every other skill :-p

Also, could you please provide the numbers that say that Illusionary Persona increases mesmer damage by at least 1/3? That number looks horribly artificial and downright wrong given all the various sources of damage from a Mesmer … even a shatter Mesmer. It also ignores that the damage per illusion goes down on Mind Wrack per Illusion that is part of it. So a 1 illusion Mind Wrack does more damage per illusion than a 2 illusion Mind Wrack … the 2 illusion just does more because despite that it is still 2 illusions shattering for a higher total sum of damage.

Even if every warrior did run Fast hands (and it is quite possible that every competitive does … have yet to not see it in them), there would still be power creep because you are now no longer have to make that investment to get Fast Hands. That frees up resources to take other traits.

Additionally, we keep getting back to Fast Hands in the current trait system …. but nothing is getting baselined in the current trait system … so that seems rather moot.

I agree with Sadrien.

If you look at Metabattle, Warrior is doing better than others in build diversity. We keep talking about Shout Builds but there are variations of the shout build that are viable. There are also the Greatsword/Axe+Shield and Greatsword/Hammer builds. Then there’s Dual Sword often paired with Longbow for condi builds. There’s plenty of variety already. Sure, there could be more, but it’s far from the worst in the game.

@silentnight warrior
It’s the combination of being able to bring that support AND do solid damage AND be solidly survivable. Please see the discussions on the various metas.

I understand the why … I think it’s more Warriors restricting their selves than it is being actually shoe-horned … not to mention the new Specializations opening up more options that can make this even more so.

FatRaKoon.1782:

Bran.7425:

If we look at what could happen you realize that they could very well move fast hand to be a major trait and where would that leave warrior?

I don’t really understand what you mean by this ? I mean moving Fast Hands to be a major trait wouldn’t matter one bit for when the Specialization system comes out we are compelled to take entire traitlines anyway, so wherever they put it doesn’t matter at all.

Besides, Fast Hands will always be a better choice anyway than any other major trait we already have.

If it were a major, you would have to choose between FH, Inspiring Battle Standard, Destruction of the Empowered or Brawler’s Recovery, all of which are great traits, losing Brawler’s Recovery (with FH) would be a pretty big loss, same as DotE.

Choppy.4183:

…Given that all warriors running viable builds already run FH, making it baseline would contribute nothing to power creep of the class, but it would support build diversity which is clearly an objective Anet has in mind with the HoT rebuild. Moreover, neither making FH baseline or leaving it as is will do anything to the place warriors (or others) have in GWEN, or any other group comp…

What? If FH was baseline, you wouldn’t absolutely HAVE to take Discipline, meaning you can take a different line for whatever more utility, DPS, Defense you like. It is quite a bit more power creep. Right now, you have to sacrifice something to get FH, which is how it should be because it is so powerful.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sebrent.3625:

There are several topics on these and metabattle also features them. Was there a point to bringing these up?

Because you talked about warrior having high damage coeficients and i was trying to explain that those damage coeficients dont make a diference. Warrior is used in all metas but not for the damage it brings but for the suport instead.

So, your argument is that Warrior does indeed have good damage AS WELL as support, but it also needs even more of both?

@Sebrent
I spend about 100% of my wvw time in havoc or roaming, actually. Warriors having a place in the zerg has absolutely nothing to do with how powerful they are… between when warriors damage output was nerfed quite a bit and before the big healing signet buff + creation of Cleansing Ire, warriors were still part of the zerg. This is an exceedingly bad measure of the viability of a class.

Burst mesmers are amazing pretty much everywhere except a large zerg. You make it sound as though they’re the poor step children of gw2, when they can absolutely wreck house. The damage increase is pretty obvious actually… mesmers are capped at 3 clones, so having the mesmer count as a clone for a burst increases the output by 1/3. If you only had two clones out, adding the mesmer increases damage by half. If you had one clone out, it’s a 100% damage increase. Though you can get a little burst off with just yourself with IP, the better door it opens is a short on-demand distortion when you’re out of endurance or to get off the stomp.

Making IP baseline for mesmers was absolutely the right thing to do, but not because it gave them a power increase they badly needed (they don’t… they’re one of the fastest burst classes out there). What it does is allow greater build diversity for mesmers utilizing their burst mechanic.

@Heimskarl Ashfiend and @Sebrent
That’s not power creep, that’s addressing forced rigidity. Unless you’re taking the position that the Discipline tree is comparatively weak to the other trait lines (which would be absurd), making Fast Hands baseline when all warriors already run it does nothing to power creep except give warriors an additional minor trait. That’s it.

@Choppy:
So, despite nerfs, warriors were still largely desired in the organized zerg? And you think that’s a bad measure of their viability? I’m not following your logic here. As far as you havoc-ing, I do believe I said that I’ve yet to see anyone complain about a GWEN class being in a havoc group :-)

Yep, Burst Mesmers can be amazing, but look at their position in the meta. Look at the discussions from the few Tourney players still playing Mesmer. There are some issues. Why do you think Mesmer is not seen as part of the meta? Have you delved into that or are you just basing it off of how it feels when you don’t dodge that shatter burst combo?

If you want to talk about build diversity … what has been the Mesmer sPvP build since launch? 4/4/0/0/6 (… 20/20/0/0/30 when the game was released). That’s been something the Mesmer community has complained about for a long time now.

Illusion Persona damage…
The damage output is not obvious. First off, I just finished explaining to you in my last post how the damage per “illusion” decreases for each illusion involved … that includes the Mesmer with Illusonary Persona. The damage does not scale linearly. Additionally, phantasms and other weapon skills are another large part of damage. There is a solid reason you see Illusionary Elasticity taken with Greatsword. That Mirrorblade with the extra bounce is fantastic. The classic Mesmer shatter burst combo is far more than just Mind Wrack.

Illusionary Persona is not a 1/3 damage increase for Mesmers. If you want to discuss Illusionary Persona, there’s a Mesmer subforum where many players (myself included) have discussed it to death … well before it ever even became baseline.

Do you not realize that the Phantasm-build Mesmers don’t really care about getting Illusionary Persona baseline? Can you think of any Warrior builds that would not care about getting Fast Hands baseline?

As far as getting a trait baseline … yes, it is power creep. By getting it baseline, it frees up resources that previously were allocated to gain that trait. Now those resources are free to gain other bonuses. Hence, with it baseline, you get it and other bonuses … you get more than you had before. You get more power. Hence power creep.

Lastly … let’s stop with this high level bull**** … what is it that makes you need to be able to weapon swap twice as much as every other class. Juba tried to point some things out but every one of them was something I was able to point out is shared with several other classes that don’t claim they require Fast Hands …

So why do you need it? As I’ve said before, there is no doubt that it is very powerful so it’s obvious why so many warriors “want” it … but why do you “need” it. I’ve still yet to see a sound argument made for that. Which leads to my other point … if you don’t really “need” it, then perhaps with the new changes people will find some other things they “want more” for some builds. Do you not think that is possible?

@Sebrent
Because a zerg is about herd viability, not individual viability. If we use the zerg as the measure, then we can safely remove condi clears from some classes because others provide it for them. It’s just a really, really bad measure of class viability because the zerg comp is covering all gaps and flaws.

Hell, the zerg is probably the one place a warrior could get away without Fast Hands because 1111111111111 on the front line works on any weapon.

As for IP, remember that I’m fully in support of making it baseline. Pointing out that all shatter mesmers took it supports my argument, not yours. Same with pointing out that all warriors use FH but non-shatter mesmers don’t care as much about IP… the latter did get a gift they wouldn’t otherwise have.

Point taken on the shatter damage.

As for making the case that warriors need it, I already outlined the best test available. Find viable builds that don’t use it… builds that stand up against other classes. We know mesmers don’t need IP (as per your point), but it was still good that they got it because it supports build diversity, and we already know the other classes don’t need Fast Hands. So, which warriors don’t?

Besides, warriors already have Fast Hands. Making it baseline doesn’t give them the gift of shorter cooldowns, it gives the gift of greater build diversity.

The “zerg comp” is composed of the classes requested. If Warrior is still being requested, despite nerfs, while other classes still are not being requested for it … what does that tell you?

If you look into how the actual organized zergs run, there is more to it than just 11111111. Take a look at some of the videos some of the more successful organized WvW groups have posted to help better explain some of the most basic concepts to others.

Given that Mesmer is a completely different class, I don’t see how Illusionary Persona’s use supports the argument that Warriors need Fast Hands. Seeing how Mesmers’ class mechanic can be made obsolete by killing their illusions, it makes sense to give them something that prevents it from being made completely obsolete. If you want something like this, let’s make Warrior lose adrenaline when hit by anything that AOEs/Cleaves, but if you have 0 adrenaline when you use a burst skill it will count as having 1 bar. I doubt any Warrior would want such a system.

The fact that Illusionary Persona isn’t used by all Mesmer builds points out how it isn’t nearly as powerful for the class as Fast Hands.

Illusionary Persona is also directly tied to the class mechanic. Fast Hands is not. It is indirectly tied to it in that Warrior class mechanic is tied to their currently selected weapon … and, no, a faster swap isn’t required for it to be viable as the base Burst cooldown is the same as the base weapon swap cooldown … both of which are faster than the lowest shatter cooldown even with its full cooldown reduction from 6 points in Illusions.

Finding viable builds that don’t use it is not a test case. That is a case for “how much does the Warrior community try new things”. There are plenty of people that just nod their head and copy&paste builds … I’m sorry but I see plenty of it in every community and the Warrior community is far from an exception to this. Heck, this is the same community that cried bloody murder when the adrenaline changes came out (decay and used when burst skill misses) … claiming that Warrior was now broken and would no longer be viable in any of the metas … look how that panned out. Still strong and viable in all metas.

Again, Warriors already having access to Fast Hands is different from getting it baseline. If you don’t have to invest any resources to get it, those resources can be invested to get something else. That would allow you to get more than you have now as you’d be able to get Fast Hands + Something_Else … that is more power. That is power creep. What part of that isn’t clear?

If you want build diversity … look at the new specializations and see if you see something you’d rather take than Fast Hands.

I still see no reason why Warrior needs kitten weapon swap instead of the standard 10s but no other class needs this. Feel free to explain.

Because the value warriors bring to the zerg isn’t their personal viability but the buffs they bring to the whole. It’s like getting invited to parties because you always bring booze, not because you’re particularly awesome.

Maybe you’re not familiar enough with the warrior to know how to make warrior bursts obsolete, excluding longbow… dodge when you see the big telegraph, blind, daze, stun, fear, block, or evade. With any one that has a movement component, add immobilized, chill, and cripple. For longbow, don’t stand in the fire field.

For all of the above, excluding longbow, you’ve not only mitigated the burst effect and put the burst in cool down, you’ve also forced the warrior to start building up adrenaline again from zero.

Fast Hands ties into the class mechanic because most F1s either require a setup skill or they are the setup skill. Also, most classes have all of their Fkey options available to them all the time, whereas warriors have to be in the correct weapon at the right time to even have a shot at using it.

I’ve challenged you to find a viable warrior build that doesn’t use Fast Hands, and finding one can include making one yourself. In an earlier post you were talking about build geniuses that can make anything work, and now you’re playing the opposite side saying nobody is willing to step outside of the box. Make one yourself, if you like, but you’re making excuses for a point you evidently aren’t able to support.

And, again, making a trait baseline that all warriors feel compelled to use (without being overpowered as a class, I might add) doesn’t increase power, it increases diversity. Leaving it as isdoesnt change the fact that all warriors already have it, which is why most of your argument is missing the point.

That warrior in the zerg provides a tanky individiual that is less likely to be rally bait than squishier classes. That warrior is also providing some excellent boons and condition removal. When that warrior swaps to Hammer they provide some stability-stripping, CC-chaining goodness. You’re trying to downplay warrior in the WvW meta, but if it wasn’t good then it wouldn’t be part of the meta. There are 4 classes that are and 4 that aren’t … there are reasons for this and despite nerfs, the Warrior has solidly remained there.

You can challenge me to find a viable warrior build that doesn’t use it, but that doesn’t mean a thing. First, I can’t (nor would I take the time to) sit around inspecting every Warrior that I run across. Second, ArenaNet has this information and they don’t seem to think that Fast Hands needs to be made baseline … why do you think that is? Third, if Warriors had a single button that made them automatically win, that would be “viable” and make everything else “non-viable” by your definition. It would be all the most competitive builds, but it wouldn’t mean that it was “needed”. Fast Hands isn’t overpowered like that, but the same principle applies.

I’ve explained that I think there are viable warrior builds without Fast Hands. As I’ve said before, there is a difference between “viable” and “more/less powerful”. Can you explain to me why the Dual Sword Condi Warrior build “needs” Fast Hands?

What part of not having to invest resources do you not understand. This is a core part of getting a trait as a baseline. If you don’t have to invest those trait points to get it, then they are free to be invested to get something else … so you are able to get more. That more means more power. It is such a simple concept.

Why do so many warriors feel that they need to have such a short cooldown on weapon swap? Why is it so necessary. No one has given a good reason why only warriors “need” it. I feel like I’m in the movie Idiocracy and you’re trying to tell me plants need electrolytes but you have no clue what electrolytes are.

First of all, you really don’t seem like someone that plays a warrior. If you had for at least a decent amount of time, then you’d know the answer as to why Fast Hands is necessary for the warrior class. But just because you seem like the stubborn type who’s not considering all aspects of why Warriors need it.

Utilities and class mechanics. What do warriors have? just another offensive skill within the burst skill. Each and every other class has the utilities to survive without the need of a 5 sec weapon cd. Here, if you’d like fast hands to be removed, on whatever class you play try swapping weapons only every 15-20 cd. You’ll see how naked you’ll feel.

Another thing, warriors have really telegraphed moves, once you dodge them (which is rather easy) they’re open to be heavily punished as they’ll have nothing to lean back on. And that’s what our class mechanic is, skills that can easily be dodged.

You say “The fact that Illusionary Persona isn’t used by all Mesmer builds points out how it isn’t nearly as powerful for the class as Fast Hands” so what? theyre different classes. Give us frickin shatters, more utilities or what not to be more active, and we can give up fast hands. I noticed based on previous pages, long and detailed thing didn’t convince you. So i’ve tried keeping it as simple as I could. If you still can’t see why fast hands is a necessity for warriors, then we just see things differently, and you should worry more about your own class.

@SilTheLimitless:
Another person who thinks “you don’t agree with me so you obviously don’t play a warrior” … such a dumb, useless statement … but okay … let’s play … I imagine, by your logic, you think ArenaNet doesn’t have anyone playing Warrior too, eh? :-p

Weapons swap without Fast Hands is 10s … not 15 to 20 seconds … do you play GW2? :-p

Warrior has more than offensive abilities as utilities. In fact, most competitive builds use more of the defensive Warrior utilities than the offensive ones. … do you play Warrior? :-p

The classic Shout Warrior puts 4 points into Defense and 6 into Tactics. That leaves them with 4 Trait Points in the current system. This largely restricts what is competing trait-wise. The reason so many take Discipline is because it continues to synergize so well with what has already been taken.

• Adrenaline on weapon swap … yay, more burst skills means more cleansing (as well as damage if you land it)
• Lower cooldowns on burst skills … yay, more burst skills against … same bonus
• Adrenaline from Shouts … obvious synergy with a Shout build’s Cleansing Ire
• alternative: 25% Movement … movement helps you better control a fight … many people have discussed this to death on all of the class subforums.
• Bonus damage to enemies with boons … you mean I do more damage to all these people stacking boons in this boon-heavy meta … why wouldn’t I want this

You see how these are specific examples? There is logic and reasoning as to why these are being taken?

If you read those long detailed posts (instead of just seeing that there were long detailed posts) … then perhaps you also read my long detailed responses … many of which pointing out why Fast Hands isn’t “needed” … just very powerful. How there isn’t a single reason stated yet that shows why only a Warrior needs to have a lower cooldown on weapon swap.

If your issue is how easy your mechanic is to dodge … are you not able to see the illusions running at you? Did you not see the illusions summoned by the stealthed Mesmer right before he shattered them? Heck, most classes in the game have telegraphs on their abilities … perhaps you’re thinking largely of Thieves which don’t … take that up with Thieves and whoever designed them.

Also, last I checked, a Warrior’s pants don’t fall around their ankles whenever they use a Burst Skill … at least my Warrior’s pants don’t.

Think you can put on your thinking camp and provide reasons why Warrior “needs” Fast Hands … not why all Warriors love having it.

… or you can keep telling me that plants need electrolytes.