Guild Wars 2

Why are we comparing mesmer to warrior?
They have different mechanics. It makes no sense at all.

Because some people’s reasoning is “other classes got some traits baseline … Mesmer got 5 things … so Warrior should get some things baseline”.

It’s bad reasoning …. but it keeps popping up.

By their logic, when they were growing up they should have gotten a wheelchair because some other kid injured in a car accident got one.

To quote one of my sons’ books … they have the “greedy gimmes” (Berenstein Bears ftw).

@Sebrent
The reason most people don’t believe you have much experience with a warrior is because none of your arguments are based in class mechanics, but in 1. warriors get invited to all the parties, and 2. other classes would like to have Fast Hands too.

You could make your own non Fast Hands just by working with a build editor for a while. Then take your warrior into PvP or Wvw and see how it goes. It didn’t take me long at all to pick up shatter mesmers, or kit engis, etc, so it shouldn’t take long to figure out if your non FH build is viable against other classes.

I gave two reasons tied to the burst mechanic why FH is important for the warrior (proper setup, and having the right tool for the job), and Juba and Sil have you more.

Condi warriors need to swap a lot because their two primary damage condis are on different weapons. Lack of Condi diversity (cover conditions) is one if the things that limits condi warriors. Slow swaps means your condis will get easily cleared and, even if they don’t, damage output will plummet. It’d be like putting kitten swap counter on kits and weapon for Condi engis… it’d be brutal.

Regardless, your argument is awful. You’ve ignored the point that making FH baseline doesn’t increase the number of warriors running it or power generally, you’re just fixated on the notion that warriors should have to pay some sort of pennance in the form of build rigidity because they’re invited to the parties you aren’t.

Your argument is literally now, “they should have to pay because nobody can prove to me they need it”. You don’t accept that it’s needed even though all warriors run it despite the cost, and you refuse to find or make any viable builds (in relation to other classes) that don’t use it. Even of warriors were seen as overpowered (they’re not), you wouldn’t have a point because we’re talking about a trait they all have anyway.

U jelly. That’s about what this comes down to.

Once again beating around the bush. Just like in every one of your other posts in this threat. I tried to give it to you straightforward, but i now see youre being quite immature too. Once again comparing mesmers clones to warriors adrenaline. Very smart of you. Cause mesmers have such limited ways of creating clones. Regardless, this isnt a warrior vs mesmer topic. Your bullet points were silly too. You even had to involve a shoutbow trait, you seem desperate. In 2 other points they directly link to the burst skill itself, which once again once dodged, then what? what about the 25%? it’s a trait aimed at double melee builds, common sense why it’s there. And finally your last bullet point, most classes have a 10% damage increase minor trait. We get a master trait that not everyone uses and could either work for against us (lack of boons, waste of trait).

And ok sure, weaponswap is indeed 10 sec not 15-20 sec. Then i shall also tell you fast hands exists, not doesnt exist. Whoa, im a genius.

“Warrior has more than offensive abilities as utilities. In fact, most competitive builds use more of the defensive Warrior utilities than the offensive ones” most? haha, shoutbow alone counts as most now? Most of the other builds will run triple stances which can be kited for their duration.

Point i’m making is, i’ve read both sides of the argument. And based on the points that have been made, and your replies. It just doesn’t seem like certain things are sinking in. (oh look i can be immature too) And i am basing that you haven’t played warrior that long based on your argument. Maybe you lack insight on warriors not experience

To end this, warriors need it to just stand a chance, not necessarily in pve though. Remember “Warriors” not shoutbows. This doesnt seem like it’s going anywhere, but im done anyway.

…or you can keep telling me that a tomato is a vegetable (ha we’re so funny!)

If you don’t think my arguments are based on mechanics then you have not been reading the posts. Go back and read. There have been several posts from me on the mechanics. My current posts have all been in reply to what others have been saying.

Your reasoning based on “proper setup and having the right tool for the job” … do you think that other classes wouldn’t benefit the exact same way from it?

• Right tool : Every class would benefit from more easily having the proper weapon out at a given time
• Setup : Mesmer needs illusions for shatters … those illusions largely come from weapon skills
• Setup : Necromancer needs Life Force for Death Shroud and some traits … they largely get Life Force from weapon skills … wouldn’t they benefit in the same way?

Do you think Mesmer and/or Necro need Fast Hands to be viable?

If you want to expand “setup” to mean changing weapon skills together from two different weapon sets, then that is every class in the game.

A Sword+Sword condi warrior is applying bleeds and torment along with cripple. Cripple provides some condi coverage as well as any condis you may be applying from sigils … assuming you take on-hit/-crit sigils. There are viable options.

ArenaNet is also obviously looking into the issue with Longbow having condi builds feel compelled to want to get back to Sword soon since they are giving a new trait to allow Longbow to apply burning on its autos so that Condi Warriors feel even less like they need to swap out of Longbow after using their non-autos.

I agree that cooldowns on Engineer would be brutal … so does ArenaNet … hence why they don’t have those. Warrior does. Apparently ArenaNet feels that warrior doesn’t “need” a faster weapon swap.

How does making FH baseline not increase the number of warriors running it. 100% of Warriors don’t run it 100% of the time currently. If you made it baseline, then 100% of Warriors would run it 100% of the time. That would be an increase, would it not?

I don’t think Warriors should “pay a penance”. Heck, if you read my posts, I put my thoughts in bulleted form to make it easy for you:

• Most, if not all, Warrior builds are more powerful with Fast Hands
• Warrior can still be quite viable/powerful even without Fast Hands … they are still quite competitive with other classes
• We don’t have nearly enough information to tell if Fast Hands will/won’t have some actual competition from other traits/builds with the upcoming changes
• I think we don’t have nearly enough information to know whether or

You think I’m jealous? Lol. Okay, well that’s at least something new to read. Still dumb though. I guess on top of not reading, you didn’t see the screenshot either. I don’t solely play Warrior, but I play it quite a bit. But I guess my Warrior is jealous of your Warrior … I mean, heck, your Warrior’s pants fall around his ankles every time he uses a Burst Skill. So jelly of that.

Ultimately, what are you trying to prove?

Do you think that Warriors should have Fast Hands baseline now? … no one is getting traits baselined with the current trait system so why should you?

Do you think that Warriors should have Fast Hands baseline with the new Specialization System? If so … have you not looked at these points I listed before

• What the new traits are?
• How some traits have been combined? … heck Shout traits are now just one trait in a single Specialization.
• What traits can now all be taken together since you will be able to take 3 Major traits per Specialization in 3 Specializations? … closest you can do to that in the current system is 6 in two traitlines and 2 in the last one. That’s 2 Minor traits and 2 Major traits more than we can currently do.
• How stats are no longer attached to traitlines so now putting points into Arms/Tactics isn’t a DPS loss because you no longer have to consider the 300 Power/Precision/Ferocity/etc. that you could have gotten from investing in another traitline.

Making Fast Hands baseline isn’t just a 3 Trait investment in the future … it is part of the decision to take Discipline or a completely different Specialization.

You can complain about my saying you have provided no reasoning why it is “needed” … but have you? No, you haven’t.

Saying, “everyone takes it” doesn’t provide a reason … why does everyone take it.

I already provided you a logic argument why it is taken in the class shout build … why am I capable of doing that but you are not?

Warriors need Fast Hands … because it has electrolytes.

There may be viable warrior builds without Fast Hands, but I’m not aware of any. I have been playing since game start, have about 2.5k hours on my warrior, have been reading forums avidly, watching videos and streams, and later have been inspecting builds in hot join – and found nothing. The absence of proof is not the proof of absence though, and maybe I’m just too weak as a warrior to create such a build.

So far, I believe that Fast Hands is deeply rooted in the warrior identity. After all, the very fact that Fast Hands exists in the first place, and that warriors have it since day one, is a strong indication that weapon-swapping is key to the warrior mechanics. When Choppy suggested to remove Fast Hands as an exercise, I took some time to provide a list of some traits, skills and mechanics which would be consequently weakened. That was some significant list, in my opinion, worth a QED.

I could possibly see myself without Fast Hands, if the warrior mechanics were improved, for instance to include:

• Another baseline way to build adrenaline (e.g. when being hit),
• Two burst skills (one for each main weapon), with these skills being available at any time, whatever the active weapon set, as for any other F skill,
• Possibly better access to general condition cleansing (i.e. not based on burst or weapon-swap). Incidentally, one should note that most classes have condition cleansing traits based on their own mechanics (Empathic Bond, Shadow’s Embrace, Shattered Conditions, Shrouded Removal…) – and the warrior’s ones are Cleansing Ire (burst-based) and Brawler’s Recovery (swap-based).

Cygnus.6903:

FatRaKoon.1782:

Absolutely, I didn’t mention it because it was off topic but this would clearly be the best choice. Better take the whole Discipline traitline than the defense one.
Cleansing Ire is currently the trait that takes away our build diversity, not Fast Hands (well at least not as strongly).

This is subjective though. Sure, without Cleansing Ire, your condition mitigation on warrior is so lackluster that you pretty much have to take it in the competitive scene (along with longbow for this very reason). However, give me one viable build without Fast Hands? One would not get rekt as hard by condi’s without Fast Hands as you would without CI, but it does make you so much weaker that you still have to take it. This means, that even if our condi management options get expanded through the patch, that you still have to take discipline, which inevitably reduces build options, even though Discipline is probably our best traitline, after Defense.

Don’t forget that we are tentatively getting some buffs to our other cleansing options which will reduce our dependency on CI in that regard. Honestly, the real reason I take CI at the moment is for the adrenaline gain cause without it our core mechanic is kitten.

Edit: NVM, just re-read your post, seems like I didn’t register the last 3 sentences. Either way our build options would still be limited. Give fast hands and we are still forced into defense for adrenaline gain. Give us adrenaline gain and we are still forced into discipline for fast hands. I would prefer being forced I to the latter since the entire line is benefts our core. It would also open up more dps options.

@SilTheLimitless.6239
Wow, you apparently didn’t take my joke well about “do you play…”. Geez dude. Did I need to spam smilies around those or something? I thought one each was sufficient ./shrug

SilTheLimitless.6239:

Once again comparing mesmers clones to warriors adrenaline. Very smart of you. Cause mesmers have such limited ways of creating clones.

Well let’s look at clone generation versus Adrenaline generation…
Mesmers can create clones via:

• Landing particular weapon skills
• Utilities
• Dodge rolls (traited)

Warriors can gain adrenaline via

• Land any weapon skills
• 1 Heal
• Utilities (some require traiting)
• 1 Elite
• Being hit (traited)
• Weapon swap (traited)

Are you going to tell me that Warriors have such limited ways of generating adrenaline?

Also … Mesmer Illusions can be destroyed by AOEs/Cleaves … often they are “whoops’d” to death. Warrior adrenaline does not suffer from this. Do you have something that makes bursts worse than this?

SilTheLimitless.6239:

“Warrior has more than offensive abilities as utilities. In fact, most competitive builds use more of the defensive Warrior utilities than the offensive ones” most? haha, shoutbow alone counts as most now? Most of the other builds will run triple stances which can be kited for their duration.

I don’t believe I specified Shoutbow. What’s amusing is that now you’re saying that most Warrior builds just take 3 stances … but at first you complained about just having more offensive abilities.

Utilities and class mechanics. What do warriors have? just another offensive skill within the burst skill. Each and every other class has the utilities to survive without the need of a 5 sec weapon cd.

Perhaps you just meant that the Burst skill only provides more offensive … Warrior isn’t the only class like that.

Additionally, some classes have more passive defenses than others. Do you think a class with more passive defenses should have the same number of active defenses? Heck, let’s split hairs and complain about not having distortion on a base 60 second cooldown but ignore having the highest base HP and base armor in the game.

Let’s also ignore how Warrior weapon skill blocks work versus Mesmer weapon skill blocks (something the Mesmer community has complained about for a while). Do you know what happens when you block as a Warrior? You keep blocking unless using the Mace/Sword block in which case if and only if the attacker is in melee range with you will you stop blocking in order to counteract. Do you know what happens with Mesmer blocks? Even if the target is too far away to hit, the Mesmer block immediately ends.

Based on what points are you saying that Warriors “need” Fast Hands? You just say “based on the arguments”, but don’t say what those are … don’t even reference them.

All I keep seeing is “everyone uses it” … but no “why”.

I’ll ask again the same thing I asked before:

Ultimately, what are you trying to prove?

Do you think that Warriors should have Fast Hands baseline now? … no one is getting traits baselined with the current trait system so why should you?

Do you think that Warriors should have Fast Hands baseline with the new Specialization System? If so … have you not looked at these points I listed before

• What the new traits are?
• How some traits have been combined? … heck Shout traits are now just one trait in a single Specialization.
• What traits can now all be taken together since you will be able to take 3 Major traits per Specialization in 3 Specializations? … closest you can do to that in the current system is 6 in two traitlines and 2 in the last one. That’s 2 Minor traits and 2 Major traits more than we can currently do.
• How stats are no longer attached to traitlines so now putting points into Arms/Tactics isn’t a DPS loss because you no longer have to consider the 300 Power/Precision/Ferocity/etc. that you could have gotten from investing in another traitline.

Making Fast Hands baseline isn’t just a 3 Trait investment in the future … it is part of the decision to take Discipline or a completely different Specialization.

As far as the tomato comment … obviously you didn’t understand it and haven’t seen Idiocracy … the electrolytes scene is a great example of people not giving “why”, just saying something is a fact. There is a big difference between that and your tomato comment … just like there is a big difference between “more/less powerful” and “is/isn’t viable”.

Sebrent.3625:

TLDR

for real dude put pics like this, not just typing random letters, now I’m truly convinced.

But GG dude, A pic from a match you only played to get the daily xD and that “You are defeated” GG dude xD War so OP, gl getting “Dungeoneer” title.

I think the question here is why Sebrent (there may be someone else though) is so incredibly adamant on Warriors not getting Fast Hands baseline. To the point of going in a post rampage (hehe), trying to squeeze every argument possible regardless of the weight those may have. It’s like you took it personal, and your gaming experience would be ruined by such a change. :/
It came to a point that I just stopped reading your posts in their entirety, where you just clearly entered in a circular argument with others.
It’s as simple as if Warriors get FH baseline, they get to choose some other trait-line instead of 0/0/0/0/6 at all times, which will be the case with 99,9% of the Warrior builds post patch if nothing changes, specializations are supposed to be a choice. It will still be the case even if FH was made baseline becouse the discipline line is amazing, and those who wouldn’t take it would be losing a great deal, so a sacrifice would still be there. FH baseline would open some other builds to viability which wouldn’t be overpowered at all if you take a second or two to anylize the possible combinations, but that’s it, really. Personally, I’m still going to take discipline regardless. All the fus you’re creating is not at all justified in my honest opinion.

There’s a particular curiosity that happens pretty often in archetype class based RPGs which I like to call ‘profession envy’, which often encourages such discussions, often filled with argumentative fallacies, hopefully this is not the case.

Khenzy.9348:

I think the question here is why Sebrent (there may be someone else though) is so incredibly adamant on Warriors not getting Fast Hands baseline. To the point of going in a post rampage (hehe), trying to squeeze every argument possible regardless of the weight those may have. It’s like you took it personal,

Maybe because i gave JonPeters a reasonable feedback about how OP “Times Marches On” in Mesmer’s Forum and he Sebrent took it personal ?

But its fine with me, free Bumps for my thread, we need this thread in 1st page anyway for ANET to see it, but hey I’m currently making a new thread, really hoping he keeps Bumping that too.

@Juba:
You’re funny. We’ll ignore the score. Yes, I was killed right at the end. If you look at chat, I got +1’d. I even told them nice +1.

I believe I’ve provided more evidence of doing well as a Warrior than you have. I guess we’ll ignore that too :-p

@Khenzy:
I’m not adamant about Warrior not getting Fast Hands. If when we see the next iteration of the Specialization System, ArenaNet has changed Fast Hands to baseline my only reaction will be “oh, I guess I was wrong”. It wouldn’t be like my opinion on some other changes they’ve done to various classes that I still think weren’t quite right (and they appear too still be trying to “right” since making).

I agree that it has become circular, but I have to ask if you haven’t noticed if that’s because I’m replying to the same comments over and over again, just by different people.

I haven’t taken anything personal, but I do have a strong distaste for people not providing some evidence for their claim. You can find this in my post history … check out the guy that claimed Ranger pet damage was nerfed by 70%. That’s fairly recent. The most recent, but lesser, example would be me just chiming in that we shouldn’t use speculation on Ranger staff when discussing other topics since we know practically nothing about it.

Currently, Fast Hands is not baseline and is not planned to be made baseline with the new Specialization changes, but some players are claiming that Fast Hands should be made baseline. I have seen no evidence as to “why” it needs to be made baseline; just the anecdote that “everyone takes it”. The few reasons “why”, I replied showing that those reasons are shared by multiple other classes who don’t even have access to Fast Hands … hence either why should Warrior get it baseline or why shouldn’t those other classes as well if those reasons are the “why”. Is that not clear?

I’m curious about your theory that a majority would still take Discipline even if Fast Hands was made baseline. Doesn’t that dispute what you and others are saying about why Fast hands should be made baseline? I mean:

• You claim that Fast Hands being baseline would help build diversity
• You claim that even if Fast Hands was made baseline that people will still have to take Discipline because it’s too good not to

Those appear to me to be contradictory points. Does this mean that Fast Hands isn’t so much the issue? Is the real issue that the Discipline specialization is that much better than all the other options? That seems like a very worthy (potentially even fun) discussion.

What combinations specifically are you wanting me to analyze? If you’re more specific, I’ll gladly delve into it with you. I’d love some more specificity to the discussion here.

As far as the curiosity paragraph… I direct you again to my distate for people stating things as fact without any evidence. Opinions are fine. “I do/don’t think it should be baseline” is fine. The reasoning behind it is what I’m trying to get discussion on.

Heck, I’ve listed in simple, clear bullets some simple questions at the end of my last two posts, but no one is really touching on them :-/

As I stated before, this same thing happened before back when the Warrior adrenaline changes came in. The Warrior subforum was full of people saying how it breaks warrior and makes warrior unviable. I disagreed and provided my reasons. Most people did what is happening here and said “you don’t play warrior”, “play warrior and you’ll see”, etc. etc. despite the fact that I was hopping on my Warrior and being fine with it. What was the end result? Warrior ended up being fine despite the mob of people that disagreed with me.

Back then no evidence was given as to “why”; just people angrily disagreeing with me.

Right now there is still no evidence; just people angrily disagreeing with me … though we did have a nice day or two there where there was a good solid discussion being had … before some others decided to chime in.

I don’t see how this is any different than the last time it happened.

• ArenaNet has made a decision I agree with
• Other people disagree with it
• Those people don’t like that I’m asking “why”

Same old formula. We’ll see in the end how it pans out. Till then, I’ll do here the same I do elsewhere … ask for reasons … ask for logic … ask for discussion.

Juba made another post before my other one was done…

I didn’t take anything personal, Juba. I just pointed out, just as the other Mesmers did, that your information was lacking/wrong. Feel free to dispute this if you want to waste more time, but please provide something to support yourself.

The only things I take personal are those related to my family … at the end of the day, everything else can kiss off.

“ArenaNet has made a decision I agree with”

I hate when people try to use that as some kind of justification for their rationale. Anet doesn’t have a clue what they’re doing in regards to balance 90% of the time.

“Back then no evidence was given as to “why”; just people angrily disagreeing with me.”

There is plenty of evidence, you just choose to ignore it. They keep saying it’s impossible for a warrior to be competitive without traiting for fast hands, and you keep saying that’s not true. But you’ve provided no evidence as to what build is competitive without fast hands. We are in fact forced to take it to be competitive, and thus it should be made baseline. It opens up a great deal of diversity to us. This isn’t a “buff warrior” debate, it’s a “give warrior more diversity” debate. The only “buff” we get to making fast hands baseline is having an additional major trait, and quite frankly only adrenal health is any good and we almost always use the defense line anyways. The rest of the benefit of making fast hands baseline is purely for diversity. You know, so perhaps we can fully trait into strength and arms trees without completely gimping ourselves.

@Kagamiku
Usually I’d challenge you to prove that 90% … but I honestly couldn’t care less about numbers pulled from nether regions at this point :-p

If there is so much evidence, then please list some of that evidence. Saying, “all viable builds use it” is not evidence … that is a possible result of whatever the “why” is. I’ve tried to be thorough and reply to each bit of “evidence”/“anecdote” that has been mentioned. If you think I missed one or didn’t properly address something, then please mention it.

If you’ll actually read the thread, you’ll see that I’m not disputing the power of Fast Hands. It is a darn good trait and in most of my Warrior builds that I like to play.

However, the idea of any traits becoming baseline was brought up by the new Specialization System that is coming to us in the future … not if Fast Hands should be baseline right now. with the current traits … though that line has gotten muddied during the life of this thread.

Are you saying that we already know that despite all the changes coming that Fast Hands will still be so powerful (or nothing equally/greater in power) that some Warrior builds won’t pick something else instead of Fast Hands?

I’ve asked this question so many times now … but you and others seem to not want to touch it. Is it not the most pertinent question here?

You say that making Fast Hands baseline would improve build diversity, but we just had the post from Khenzy.9348 that said that even if Fast Hands was made baseline that people would still need to take Discipline … you have nothing to say about that?

Maybe the Elite spec can do something about our dependence on fast hands, but other then that, none of the changes has showed other wise..

Sebrent.3625:

Are you saying that we already know that despite all the changes coming that Fast Hands will still be so powerful (or nothing equally/greater in power) that some Warrior builds won’t pick something else instead of Fast Hands?

I’ve asked this question so many times now … but you and others seem to not want to touch it. Is it not the most pertinent question here?

Because I’ve seen the new traits warriors are getting? Mostly increased damage and shoutbow is going to become even better. Some traits are being combined..None of this makes fast hands any less important. The new specialization could change things but at the same time we’re going to be discarding one of the other traitlines before we discard fast hands. Unless the new specialization has something as good as fast hands…but that doesn’t mean we won’t take discipline…it means we’re going to take both fast hands and the new specialization. Fast hands is the single best trait we have, you can combine multiple traits together and it still doesn’t compare to the sheer diversity and importance of fast hands. That trait alone buffs so many things related to warrior. Might on weapons wap? Check. Cleansing Ire? Check. Sigils? Check.
The only exception is if the new balance update makes us so strong that we become overpowered with fast hands, but we would still take it…It just means that the skill would need nerfed at that point.

You say that making Fast Hands baseline would improve build diversity, but we just had the post from Khenzy.9348 that said that even if Fast Hands was made baseline that people would still need to take Discipline … you have nothing to say about that?

Because it’s not really true. Discipline is a good tree even without FH and many people will still take it, but without FH in the discipline tree there are many builds that could work competitively without FH. Discipline will aid in making you a bit harder to kill, but strength tree will give a huge damage boost. Arms tree might be something hambow would use for unsuspecting foes. Although arms is going to be in a niche spot, it’s still viable for some builds if we’re not forced into the discipline tree. Fast Hands is too good. Yet at the same time, it’s one of the only reasons we are viable. If not for that fact, it would need a nerf.

@Kagamiku:
So, before playtesting any of this, you’re that sure of all of it? … ok.

Are there no changes that might motivate you to stay in a particular weapon set for more than 5s ?

Before even knowing what the new Specialization is, you are sure that if it could be a possible replacement for Fast Hands that it will just always be taken with Fast Hands? …

I know I’ve mentioned mesmers plenty, but they are the best example of the 3 classes whose elites we’ve been shown … I think you should look at the Mesmer discussions on Chronomancer’s traits that provide illusions. There are now 2 choices in Chronomancer other than Deceptive Evasion for improving illusion generation … not everyone is planning on taking both in every build nor all three … otherwise you’d see every Shatter build taking Chronomancer / Dueling / X … but you don’t because ArenaNet seems to have figured out how to provide some diversity … though we’ll see how that holds up when the meta shifts … I’m well aware that we could just get stuck in another single spec … it just looks less likely.

I think it’s far too early to be as sure as you seem to be about this, but you’re free to your opinion. I’ll continue to try to discuss any points with you (and others) :-)

What exactly is it about spending an extra 5 seconds in a single weapon set that is so horrible? Are you constantly using 2 through 5 on a weapon set then swapping back to the other and hitting 2 through 5 immediately and repeating that process? Or is it just about being locked out of a weapon set as little as possible? Or a little of both?

What exactly is it about spending an extra 5 seconds in a single weapon set that is so horrible? Are you constantly using 2 through 5 on a weapon set then swapping back to the other and hitting 2 through 5 immediately and repeating that process? Or is it just about being locked out of a weapon set as little as possible? Or a little of both?

Because warrior weapon skills are spammable. By the time we spammed all of our skills on one weapon we can swap weapons and spam skills on the other. That amounts to far more damage since we’re allowed to use a skill as soon as it’s off cooldown and not be stuck on a weapon where all we have left is our mediocre auto attack damage.

There is also what I explained before. A 5 second weapon swap allows you to spam your burst which procs cleansing ire which means far more condition cleanse. We also have traits that proc on weapon swap so those traits become 100% more powerful. Not only that, but sigils also benefit from a faster weapon swap. We only need one endurance/doom/geomancy/intelligence sigil to receive the full benefit of them because we can swap to them as soon as they’re off cooldown. Hell, it even increases our mobility because we can swap to sword/warhorn or GS more readily when needed for a quick escape FH improves so many things that it becomes a mandatory pickup. It indirectly increases our damage, our sustain, and our mobility. The difference between 5 and 10 seconds if huge when you’re in desperate need of the weapon set you’re not currently using. FH even helps us stack might better, because we have multiple skills we need to use after placing our firefield, we can’t be stuck in LB for too long or the firefield will disappear before we can stack might properly. Sure, you can use the firefield right before you can swap weapons again, but since Combustive Shot (firefield) also deals a great deal of damage and it cleanses conditions because of CI, it’s a skill that needs to be spammed in order to have full effectiveness. Plus the more timesyou use it, the more might you can stack anyways.

Even if they made FH baseline, any self respecing warrior will still be picking the discipline specialization. Any warrior that doesn’t is seriously gimping their potential and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Julie Yann.5379:

Even if they made FH baseline, any self respecing warrior will still be picking the discipline specialization. Any warrior that doesn’t is seriously gimping their potential and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Strength > Disicpline for any GS or Mace build. It could even be for Hammers, but I think hammer would take both disicpline and strength. Distracting strikes and body blow for mace/hammer, and the new Berserkers power and forceful greatsword for the zerkers out there.

Julie Yann.5379:

Even if they made FH baseline, any self respecing warrior will still be picking the discipline specialization. Any warrior that doesn’t is seriously gimping their potential and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

That is why we need Warrior’s Sprint as Baseline too.

Awesome! Thank you! We have some much more specific points to discuss so let’s discuss them :-)

Kagamiku.9731:

Because warrior weapon skills are spammable. By the time we spammed all of our skills on one weapon we can swap weapons and spam skills on the other.

Isn’t this the case for other classes as well?
If so, wouldn’t that mean that this either:

• is not a valid enough reason why Fast Hands is needed
• is a valid reason why other classes also need Fast Hands

If not, could you please elaborate on how it isn’t?

Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any class wouldn’t be able to spam their skills more with a lower cooldown on weapon swap except for Thief since they use initiative for weapon skills instead of cooldowns.

Kagamiku.9731:

That amounts to far more damage since we’re allowed to use a skill as soon as it’s off cooldown and not be stuck on a weapon where all we have left is our mediocre auto attack damage.

Again, wouldn’t this also amount to far more damage for other classes?

If so, again, why does this warrant Warrior needing Fast Hands … but other classes which this also applies to don’t warrant Fast Hands?

As far as “mediocore auto attack damage” … this goes back to what I’ve said about Warrior weapon coefficients. Warrior auto-attacks dwarf those of several others. Why do those others not then need Fast Hands? They have worse than “mediocre auto attack damage” so by your logic shouldn’t they have Fast Hands?

Kagamiku.9731:

A 5 second weapon swap allows you to spam your burst which procs cleansing ire which means far more condition cleanse.

Isn’t the same true for:

• Mesmer being able to spam shatters more often since they can swap more which would allow them to generate illusions faster which are required for those shatters?
• Necromancer being able to spam Death Shroud more since they could swap weapons more to use Life Force generating attacks more often?

Do you disagree that these classes mechanics wouldn’t also benefit from faster weapon swap cooldowns? I think they do.

If so, then, by your logic, why don’t all 3 of these classes need Fast Hands?

As far as Cleansing Ire … what if you didn’t have it?
Mesmer and Necromancer both also have traits that benefit them more the more they are able to leverage their class mechanics … again, why does Warrior’s benefit from it mean it needs it but these other classes benefitting quite similarly does not mean they need it?

Kagamiku.9731:

We also have traits that proc on weapon swap so those traits before 100% more powerful.

What if you didn’t have these traits?

Ranger also has traits for weapon swap … two, just like the Warrior … so why doesn’t Ranger need Fast Hands?

Thief has a single trait for weapon swap … why doesn’t this warrant Thieves needing Fast Hands?

Kagamiku.9731:

Not only that, but sigils also benefit from a faster weapon swap. We only need one endurance/doom/geomancy/intelligence sigil to receive the full benefit of them because we can swap to them as soon as they’re off cooldown.

Yes, it’s well known that Fast Hands and on-swap sigils love each other immensely as there is great benefit from the synergy between them …

… but wouldn’t all other classes also benefit from this the exact same way if they had Fast Hands? We already see Elementalists and Engineers enjoying the same thing just in their own different ways (attunements/kits). Do you think Necromancers, Mesmers, Guardians, Rangers, and Thieves wouldn’t benefit from this as well?

Sigils are not a Warrior-only mechanic so why does the existence of on-swap sigils mean that Warriors need Fast Hands?

edit: some of you posted while I was finishing mine up

Julie Yann.5379:

Even if they made FH baseline, any self respecing warrior will still be picking the discipline specialization. Any warrior that doesn’t is seriously gimping their potential and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Could you please elaborate on why you think this? Currently you’ve only given your opinion and not the reasons why that is your opinion. We can discuss the reasons. We can’t really discuss your opinion :-p

Kagamiku.9731:

Strength > Disicpline for any GS or Mace build. It could even be for Hammers, but I think hammer would take both disicpline and strength. Distracting strikes and body blow for mace/hammer, and the new Berserkers power and forceful greatsword for the zerkers out there.

What about Sword? Longbow? Rifle?
Please give the reasons as well so we can have a discussion :-)

I’m not going to bother to respond to all that. It’s obvious that other classes would hugely benefit from Fast Hands, just as a warrior would hugely benefit from clone spam and stealth or protection and evade spam. FH is something we have, it’s what makes us viable. Give something like that to another class that also has multiple things a warrior does not and they’re going to be incredibly overpowered. Just because another class doesn’t have it, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t. All classes work differently, and no class has everything. Warrior is relatively balanced, some may think shoutbow is a little on the OP side, but so is D/D ele and Celestial engi…and that’s only one build. The rest of the warrior builds range between barely acceptable to complete trash. FH is an amazing skill and it is one thing all warrior builds have in common. Removing it would take our viability and throw it in the trashcan…Just as taking away a thiefs blinds/evades/invis would do the same to them.

Stealth is way too OP, i think they should remove stealth..
i think all other classes can benefit from the great synergy stealth will create, but one few classes get it.
it’s unfair.

@Kagamiku:
That seems like a bit of a “cop out”.

You just said: “yes, we benefit from Fast Hands and so would others … but we need it and they don’t”. That doesn’t prove “why”.

Why does the warrior benefiting from it mean the Warrior needs it but other classes benefiting from it not mean they need it too?

Are you unable to answer the questions?

@lighter:
I had a reply for this as I somewhat agree … but it’s horribly off-topic. I don’t think it’s OP, but I think there are better alternatives.

I’m starting to feel this is pointless, but i’ll take the bait one final time.
The “why” is because we’re not viable without it. Why is that not a good enough reason?We don’t have fancy clones and stealth like a mesmer does. We tank damage or we dodge out of it. We are seen throughout the entire battle. Some mesmer and thief builds can spam so many things that you’re lucky to hit them 20% of the time. FH lets us deal with our lack of utility far better. We need FH because warriors are crappy without it. If you can’t comprehend that then I have nothing more to say to you. If you don’t believe it, then prove it. I’ve played a few thousand pvp games as a warrior and I’ve watched competitive play and one thing never changes— Fast Hands is mandatory in all builds. Fast hands is simply an amazing skill, if you’re implying that a warrior can still succeed in PvP without that amazing skill then you’re implying that warriors are incredibly OP…and warriors only take FH to be even more OP. But again, that’s not something you can prove, because it’s not true.

tl;dr A warrior needs it because they’re not viable without it, other classes don’t need it because they would be OP with it. In the same vein as how a mesmer would not be fine without clones, while a warrior is. Completely different class mechanics. Honestly, the circular logic you’re using for this makes very little sense. Comparing and contrasting a class isn’t so cut and dry.

@Kagamiku:
You seem angry now and all I did was ask follow-up questions ….

There’s no “bait”. This is how discussing actual points/facts and using logic works. You can’t just say “it is because I say so”.

Kagamiku.9731:

The “why” is because we’re not viable without it. Why is that not a good enough reason?

Why are you not viable without it? I keep asking, you provided some points. I asked questions about those points and you aren’t willing to touch on them for some reason.

It is not good enough because it doesn’t answer “why are you not viable without it”. Finish the discussion.

Kagamiku.9731:

We don’t have fancy clones and stealth like a mesmer does.

Rangers, Necromancers, Engineers, Elementalist, Thieves, and Guardians don’t have “fancy clones”.

Necromancers, Elementalists, and Guardians don’t have stealth. Heck, all Rangers without Longbow and Engineers without Elixir S don’t have stealth either.

Why don’t any of them need Fast Hands?

If it’s just because each of these classes has something Warriors don’t then why doesn’t Warrior’s high damage coefficients and combination of highest base HP and highest base armor qualify for why the other classes need Fast Hands? Those are things Warrior has that the other classes don’t.

Kagamiku.9731:

We tank damage or we dodge out of it. We are seen throughout the entire battle.

So are those classes/builds just mentioned that don’t have stealth … again, why don’t they need Fast Hands but Warrior does?

Kagamiku.9731:

Some mesmer and thief builds can spam so many things that you’re lucky to hit them 20% of the time.

How does swapping weapons help you deal with spam?

Why is it that dealing with Mesmer/Thief spam means Warrior needs Fast Hands but the other classes don’t?

Kagamiku.9731:

FH lets us deal with our lack of utility far better.

What lack of utility? Elaborate?

Kagamiku.9731:

We need FH because warriors are crappy without it. If you can’t comprehend that then I have nothing more to say to you. If you don’t believe it, then prove it.

Again, why do you need Fast Hands. You keep bringing up points, but whenever I ask you questions about those points, you refuse to answer them … they are even very basic questions.

If you have nothing more to say then I assume it is because either:

• You can’t answer the questions
• You refuse to answer the questions because it would weaken your argument

Kagamiku.9731:

I’ve played a few thousand pvp games as a warrior and I’ve watched competitive play and one thing never changes— Fast Hands is mandatory in all builds. Fast hands is simply an amazing skill, if you’re implying that a warrior can still succeed in PvP without that amazing skill then you’re implying that warriors are incredibly OP…and warriors only take FH to be even more OP. But again, that’s not something you can prove, because it’s not true.

How does me thinking that Warrior doesn’t need Fast Hands translate to me saying that Warrior is OP?

I don’t think I’ve said anywhere in this discussion that warrior is OP.

This seems like ranting due to an inability or unwillingness to answer the follow-up questions.

Kagamiku.9731:

tl;dr They don’t need it because they’re fine without it, warriors are not. In the same vein as how a mesmer would not be fine without clones, while a warrior is. Completely different class mechanics. Honestly, the circular logic you’re using for this makes very little sense. Comparing and contrasting a class isn’t so cut and dry.

Then continue explaining “why” … you again are not doing that.

A mesmer’s illusions are part of their class mechanic. It’s been baseline since before launch. It’s incorporated into all their weapon sets current and upcoming (future).

Fast Hands is not part of a Warrior’s class mechanic. It has never been baseline.

That is a horribly comparison. It even ignores that Mesmer’s damage coefficients are lower than average because a chunk of their damage is expected to come from their illusions. I don’t see Warrior attacks having lower coefficients because they can weapon swap twice as much as other player.

Again, all I did was ask follow-up questions. That is still what I’m doing.

If it is so cut-and-dry then it should be trivial to answer the questions.

Would it help if I made a new post with those questions bulleted?

Sebrent.3625:

Julie Yann.5379:

Even if they made FH baseline, any self respecing warrior will still be picking the discipline specialization. Any warrior that doesn’t is seriously gimping their potential and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Could you please elaborate on why you think this? Currently you’ve only given your opinion and not the reasons why that is your opinion. We can discuss the reasons. We can’t really discuss your opinion :-p

I think it is pretty obvious why.

Versatile Rage – cause we need adrenaline to use our core mechanic, even more so since Anet butchered it. (Why wouldn’t you want this?)

Warrior sprint – not only does it get us from point A to B 25% faster but all our movement skills also get a 25% boost along with breaking immo (which is quite broken since Anet made it stack in duration.) (Why wouldn’t you want this?)

Inspired Battle Standard or Destruction of Empowered depending on if you want support or more DPS (Why wouldn’t you want this?)

Versatile Power – free might on weapon swap (goes nicely with fast hands and phalanx strength) and also -15% burst CD (Why wouldn’t you want this?)

Burst Mastery- MOAR BURST! (Even hammers should be taking this over Merciless Hammer) (Why wouldn’t you want this?)

The entire trait line doesn’t just cater to a specific weapon set or a specific role (Tank/Support/DPS) but the entire class regardless of what build you are running.

Julie Yann.5379:

I think it is pretty obvious why.

Versatile Rage – cause we need adrenaline to use our core mechanic, even more so since Anet butchered it.

Warrior sprint – not only does it get us from point A to B 25% faster all our movement skill also get a 25% boost along with breaking immo (which is quite broken since Anet made it stack in duration.)

Inspired Battle Standard or Destruction of Empowered depending on if you want support or more DPS

Versatile Power – free might on weapon swap (goes nicely with fast hands) and also -15% burst CD

Burst Mastery- MOAR BURST! (Even hammers should be taking this over Merciless Hammer)

The entire trait line doesn’t just cater to a specific weapon set or a specific role (Tank/Support/DPS) but the entire class regardless of what build you are running.

But still Fast Hands + Warrior’s Sprint are truly the jewels of this line and truly effects every build.

I think i speak on behalf of most warriors, that if these 2 traits goes Baseline then the new SPEC will have a chance against DISC line.

Of course hammer warrs will have to pick this line but that is better than making all warriors forced to pick it.

Sebrent.3625:

@Kagamiku:
You seem angry now and all I did was ask follow-up questions ….

Because you keep asking questions and telling me to explain things without actually explaining anything yourself. Or any evidence despite your own opinion. For instance, you’ve yet to provide me a build that works without FH.

And for the record, a debate isn’t about one person tossing out questions and another providing answers. Especially when you just disagree with all answers given without providing anything to debunk said answers.

There’s no “bait”. This is how discussing actual points/facts and using logic works. You can’t just say “it is because I say so”.

Maybe if I normally argue with a brick wall…

.

It is not good enough because it doesn’t answer “why are you not viable without it”. Finish the discussion.

I keep explaining why and you keep ignoring it, go figure.

Rangers, Necromancers, Engineers, Elementalist, Thieves, and Guardians don’t have “fancy clones”.

Just because I didn’t mention the other classes doesn’t mean they don’t have their own mechanics.

Rangers have pets and extremely long range with LB as well as invis. If they choose to not go power ranger, they have an extremely high amount of evades with sword.

Necromancers have fear spam and an entire secondary lifepool. They can also boonstrip and corrupt boons. Plus the I-win card Lich form. And despite all this, they’re considered to be on the weaker end of the pvp scene.

Engi’s have an insane amount of knockdown spam with no tells. They also have high protection uptime, and gear shield that’s on a 15 second cooldown. They also have kits which allows for even more skills. Kits don’t even have a CD, so they’re better than FH in a way. They also have that miniature form that makes htem invulnerable and an invis using their F skills.

Elementlaists have…everything. High protection and stability uptime. An instant cast teleport that ensures they can always escape. Four attunements which allows for combofield and blast finisher galore. They also have reflects and blinds.

Guardians have aegis and blind spam, protection, teleports, and invulerabilities.

If it’s just because each of these classes has something Warriors don’t then why doesn’t Warrior’s high damage coefficients and combination of highest base HP and highest base armor qualify for why the other classes need Fast Hands? Those are things Warrior has that the other classes don’t.

High damage coefficient lol. Thief, ele, Guardian, necro, ranger,…Every class is capable of dealing higher damage than a warrior in pvp. The only thing they truly have going for them is highest base HP but without the sustain that doesn’t mean much. They’re highly susceptible to burst damage and they have no real get out of jail free cards like other classes do. Warrior is the only class that almost never goes berserker. All other classes can pull it off because of their utility and class mechanics. A warrior will just melt because they’re insanely easy to focus down and they have no means of escape. Highly telegraphed moves is also a big downside to warriors.

So are those classes/builds just mentioned that don’t have stealth … again, why don’t they need Fast Hands but Warrior does?

Is every one of your comments going to end in a question mark? Is your goal to annoy me to the point to where you win by default? How about start proving to me why warrior doesn’t need fast hands. Or better yet, provide a build that doesn’t need Fast Hands.

How does swapping weapons help you deal with spam?

Because it allows a warrior to be in the weapon set that he needs to be in to better deal with the situation. It doesn’t directly help us from spam, it indirectly helps us to stay alive long enough to deal with the spam heavy classes.

Why is it that dealing with Mesmer/Thief spam means Warrior needs Fast Hands but the other classes don’t?

Because they have their own utilities to deal with them. Keep those questions coming!

What lack of utility? Elaborate?

Another question? Are you for real?

Blinds/aegis/invis/protection/invis/clones/invulnerabilities/ instant cast ports…All utility skills that help to mitigate damage or ignore it completely. Warriors endure pain is really the only thing they have to escape a burst combo and most warriors can’t even afford to take it a lot of the time. Because it would mean sacrificing stability.

Again, why do you need Fast Hands. You keep bringing up points, but whenever I ask you questions about those points, you refuse to answer them … they are even very basic questions.

Because it makes us stronger. There is nothing more to answer. I explained why FH was a great skill and I explained why we would be far weaker without it. Weak enough to throw us out of the competitive scene. I tell you the same thing every time and somehow that doesn’t work as a legitimate answer to you, and yet it’s the only thing that should matter.

If you have nothing more to say then I assume it is because either:

• You can’t answer the questions
• You refuse to answer the questions because it would weaken your argument

You haven’t done anything but ask questions. Even after they are answered you claim they were not and ask the same thing a second and third time. I pity the people that would have to deal with this IRL.

How does me thinking that Warrior doesn’t need Fast Hands translate to me saying that Warrior is OP?

I don’t think I’ve said anywhere in this discussion that warrior is OP.

It does, because fast hands is an amazing skill and to think a warrior can survive without that amazing skill translates to you thinking warrior is overpowered with the skill and just right without it. Mesmers can’t survive without clones, necros can’t survive without their secondary lifepool, thiefs can’t survive without ports or evades. This is in the same vein.

This seems like ranting due to an inability or unwillingness to answer the follow-up questions.

You’re all about the questions and none of the answers, aren’t you.

A mesmer’s illusions are part of their class mechanic. It’s been baseline since before launch. It’s incorporated into all their weapon sets current and upcoming (future).

There are so many things being made baseline after the balance update that were not made baseline that this is a shoddy argument at best. Warriors are masters of weapons, a quicker weapon swap could and very well should be a warrior baseline. After all, a warrior currently has no “class mechanic.” It’s also going to open up more opportunities for a warrior to expand their horizons rather than being pigeonholed into the same trait line every time.

Does someone else want to take over for me? If I have to answer another question that I already answered and then being told I didn’t answer it, I might be driven looney.

Juba.8406:

Julie Yann.5379:

I think it is pretty obvious why.

Versatile Rage – cause we need adrenaline to use our core mechanic, even more so since Anet butchered it.

Warrior sprint – not only does it get us from point A to B 25% faster all our movement skill also get a 25% boost along with breaking immo (which is quite broken since Anet made it stack in duration.)

Inspired Battle Standard or Destruction of Empowered depending on if you want support or more DPS

Versatile Power – free might on weapon swap (goes nicely with fast hands) and also -15% burst CD

Burst Mastery- MOAR BURST! (Even hammers should be taking this over Merciless Hammer)

The entire trait line doesn’t just cater to a specific weapon set or a specific role (Tank/Support/DPS) but the entire class regardless of what build you are running.

But still Fast Hands + Warrior’s Sprint are truly the jewels of this line and truly effects every build.

I think i speak on behalf of most warriors, that if these 2 traits goes Baseline then the new SPEC will have a chance against DISC line.

Of course hammer warrs will have to pick this line but that is better than making all warriors forced to pick it.

I think most wars would rather pick disc for FH and WS then pick defense just for adrenaline gain from CI.

Bottom line, Anet will never make both those traits baseline no matter how long you hold your breath for it, it’s just too incredibly OP to get for free. However, there is a possibility that they would consider making Embrace Pain baseline and that is the tree we should be barking up.

FatRaKoon.1782:

I don’t really understand what you mean by this ? I mean moving Fast Hands to be a major trait wouldn’t matter one bit for when the Specialization system comes out we are compelled to take entire traitlines anyway, so wherever they put it doesn’t matter at all.

Besides, Fast Hands will always be a better choice anyway than any other major trait we already have.

Nothing hard to understand they could have treated (and still could) Fast Hand in a similar way as Elemental Attunement. And most of the argument that are not ‘baseline because I want it without cost’ are more or less coming for the same way of thinking.

@Kagamiku:
Asking questions is how these sorts of discussions occur … otherwise we are just talking at each other. Perhaps one day you’ll understand this. I don’t go into a technical meeting and say “This is what you need cuz I said. This is what we’re using because I said”. Myself, coworkers, and clients ask what each other wants/needs, can/can’t do, etc.. It’s a grown up discussion. Being asked questions shouldn’t be met with so much hostility. It’s quite odd.

Kagamiku.9731:

High damage coefficient lol. Thief, ele, Guardian, necro, ranger,…Every class is capable of dealing higher damage than a warrior in pvp.

Which skills are you comparing here for this higher damage? In particular I’d love to see the Ranger damage coefficients that you believe are higher than Warrior’s. You just state this like a fact without anything to support it.

All you’ve said here is that these classes have higher ones without pointing out any … let me do one for you … here are two power weapons so there shouldn’t be any qualms.

Warrior Greatsword AA Chain

• 2.4 seconds for all 3 attacks
• Coefficients are 0.7 / 0.7 / 0.9
• Weapon Strength = 995 – 1100 (in sPvP)

Ranger Greatsword AA Chain

• 2.56 seconds for all 3 attacks (slower attack speed)
• Coefficients are 0.55 / 0.55 / 0.65 (lower coefficients)
• Weapon Strength = 995 – 1100 (in sPvP)

As you can see clear as day, the Warrior Greatsword attacks faster and has drastically better damage coefficients.

Kagamiku.9731:

The only thing they truly have going for them is highest base HP but without the sustain that doesn’t mean much.

So we just ignore the combination of highest base HP and highest base armor and how that translates to the highest effective base health in the game? Why do we just ignore that and not the pros some other classes have?

Those high damage coefficients are something that is also quite a pro in favor of Warriors.

We’ll also ignore the passive healing from Healing Signet, Adrenal Health, and foods … as often seen in many of the WvW Warrior videos.

I guess we should also ignore that having higher toughness is a multiplier for effective healing since when your healing is trying to counter the damage you’re taking, your armor is lowering the damage the healing as to handle.

Kagamiku.9731:

They’re highly susceptible to burst damage and they have no real get out of jail free cards like other classes do.

How is a Warrior more susceptible to burst? You don’t explain this at all … you just state it like it’s a fact without supporting it in any way.

Warrior has access to active defenses (Blocks, Evades, Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, traited Endure Pain) and Warrior is by default more capable of surviving a burst to their face than any other class. I fail to see how they are more susceptible to burst.

If Warrior is so much more susceptible to burst then why in the world aren’t they called “rally bait” in PvP? Why aren’t they bursted down “so easily” in sPvP? Why are they on the frontline in WvW?

Kagamiku.9731:

Warrior is the only class that almost never goes berserker. All other classes can pull it off because of their utility and class mechanics. A warrior will just melt because they’re insanely easy to focus down and they have no means of escape. Highly telegraphed moves is also a big downside to warriors.

Let’s take a look at the metabattle builds for WvW Roaming …

• Full Zerk – http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Warrior_-_GS_Axe/Shield_Roamer
• Zerk except two pieces of Cavalier – http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Warrior_-_GS_S/x_Roamer
• Full Zerk – http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Warrior_-_Hammer/GS_Roamer
• Carrion/Dire/Rabid … because it’s a condition build – http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Warrior_-_S/S_Condi_Roamer

Heck, even the frontline zerg build takes all Berzerker weapons and accesories.
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Warrior_-_Shouts_Frontliner

It appears you are incorrect. Looking at some of the recent videos/guides for Warriors, many of them are also running full zerk.

I don’t know how you got “almost never runs zerk” unless you’re only focusing on sPvP where being a shoutbuild that holds a point is the current meta. The other builds are still quite effective in PvP, it’s just that in an organized team it is harder to justify taking something besides a Thief for +1-ing fights due to their mobility, burst, etc.. Warrior is far from the only class that has trouble competing with Thief for that position.

Kagamiku.9731:

Is every one of your comments going to end in a question mark? Is your goal to annoy me to the point to where you win by default? How about start proving to me why warrior doesn’t need fast hands. Or better yet, provide a build that doesn’t need Fast Hands.

I ask questions to dig deeper on each subject. Are you incapable or unwilling to do that?[/quote]

Warrior doesn’t need Fast Hands baseline because a Warrior can play smarter (like everyone else) with their weapon cooldowns and weapon swap cooldown instead of “spamming” as you put it. I’ve discussed the “need” versus “power” btw … but you continue to ignore that.

Here’s the traits for a slight tweak on the Shout Warrior build in sPvP that is quite effective if you don’t kitten up your weapon swaps

• http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQBYgqgC9iHAbtqbI9J8CpAA-TpgZgAg7PAUGAA

That retaliation can be quite the P.I.T.A. for other classes to deal with. In the current meta, unless the enemy Thief saves their steal for specifically after their crit procs this, you aren’t going to see it removed unless the other team has a shatter mesmer in which case your team’s Thief is not doing his/her job.

Kagamiku.9731:

Because it allows a warrior to be in the weapon set that he needs to be in to better deal with the situation. It doesn’t directly help us from spam, it indirectly helps us to stay alive long enough to deal with the spam heavy classes.

So all the other classes don’t need to use be in the “more favorable” weapon set when “being spammed” but Warrior does?

I’m curious why you think this. I’ve yet to see why you think the other classes don’t.

Kagamiku.9731:

Because they have their own utilities to deal with them. Keep those questions coming!

And Warrior doesn’t? I’ve already pointed out some Warrior utilities that are quite great a helping them deal with enemy attacks.

Kagamiku.9731:

Blinds/aegis/invis/protection/invis/clones/invulnerabilities/ instant cast ports…All utility skills that help to mitigate damage or ignore it completely. Warriors endure pain is really the only thing they have to escape a burst combo and most warriors can’t even afford to take it a lot of the time. Because it would mean sacrificing stability.

So when other classes take their utilities that give them one of these things instead of giving them stability … they aren’t having to make that trade-off for stability? I’d love to know how they aren’t.

Kagamiku.9731:

Because it makes us stronger. There is nothing more to answer. I explained why FH was a great skill and I explained why we would be far weaker without it. Weak enough to throw us out of the competitive scene. I tell you the same thing every time and somehow that doesn’t work as a legitimate answer to you, and yet it’s the only thing that should matter.

Being strong doesn’t mean it’s required. Those are two different things. I’ve typed that to you and others so many times yet you ignore it every time. Do you disagree that those are two different things?

Kagamiku.9731:

You haven’t done anything but ask questions. Even after they are answered you claim they were not and ask the same thing a second and third time. I pity the people that would have to deal with this IRL.

Well, looking at several of my questions from the first post where I replied to your points … you didn’t answer any of those … please feel free to show me where you did …

Then there were my earlier posts where I even asked the same bulleted questions two posts in a row and not one of those was answered.

Lastly … look at your answers here that I’ve now replied to … you “answered” them. You just said “it’s this way because I said”. You don’t provide anything of substance there. Heck, for one you claimed that Warriors can’t really do full-zerk even though there is a plethora of evidence on the forums, metabattle, etc. that says otherwise.

Kagamiku.9731:

It does, because fast hands is an amazing skill and to think a warrior can survive without that amazing skill translates to you thinking warrior is overpowered with the skill and just right without it. Mesmers can’t survive without clones, necros can’t survive without their secondary lifepool, thiefs can’t survive without ports or evades. This is in the same vein.

Are you still seriously comparing Fast Hands to
.. Illusions … weapon swap cooldown compared to 2+ Weapon skills on every Mesmer weapon set that comprise a sizeable chunk of a Mesmer’s DPS as well as are required to fuel Mesmer shatters? They’re not even close in how critical one is to the other. What exactly do you expect?

Without Fast Hands, a warrior is in a given weapon set for 5 more seconds. Without Illusions, what exactly do you expect a Mesmer to do? Have 2-3 skills per weapon set? Not be able to shatter? Have even less sustained DPS? … this isn’t even close.

Are you seriously comparing Fast Hands to Necromancer Life Force + Death Shoud?
… again, Warrior is stuck in a weapon set for 5 more seconds … versus a Necromancer who is the one class in the game horribly short on active defenses now having to facetank that damage without a second health bar … again, not even close.

You compare it to a Thief’s evades and mobility … do you know what happens to a visible thief when they aren’t evading or repositioning? They die. If you want to talk about a class that is susceptible to burst … Thief. Tied for lowest base health in the game and has medium armor. Come talk to them about needing stability too … they’d love some.

Kagamiku.9731:

Does someone else want to take over for me? If I have to answer another question that I already answered it might drive me looney.

Because having a discussion is hard?
Answering simple questions is hard?

This attitude about answering questions in a discussion is ridiculous.

Perhaps someone that will answer questions and provide some substance when pressed on their answers would be better.

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the traits for a slight tweak on the Shout Warrior build in sPvP that is quite effective if you don’t kitten up your weapon swaps

• http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQBYgqgC9iHAbtqbI9J8CpAA-TpgZgAg7PAUGAA

.

Can we just meet up in GW2 so I can readily thrash that build with the current shoutbow? Actions are better than words at this point.

Also, I’m going to pray the runes and accessory you have listed isn’t what you really use and just forgot to change them because if it is, dear God. You have a warhorn that gives perma-swiftness, why are you using traveler runes over soldier or hoelbrak runes? And Rabid accessory? That’s a good way to make two of your highest damage burst skills completely insignificant. Arcing Arrow and Impale.

Lol, I was pretty ambivalent about making Fast Hands baseline when I started, mostly because, as others have pointed out, Discipline is a good trait line and I don’t mind dipping into it.

But after realizing pretty early on that:

1. As far as anyone seems to know, all warriors currently run it, therefore
2. Making it baseline wouldn’t really make warriors any more powerful (especially with the new trait system), just more diverse

Moreover,

1. Everybody seems to agree that warriors aren’t overpowered now, even with FH
2. Everybody agrees FH is a powerful trait that no other classes have, therefore
3. Warriors evidently need FH to achieve their current power level, whereas other classes do not

Sebrent is basically engaging in a standard gish gallop. Also, that shout build… who the hell traits Spiked Armor with power that low? lmao. Maybe it’s for killing ambients?

@Juba and @Julie Yann
I’m with Julie in that I don’t see Warrior’s Sprint being made baseline. Further, I don’t personally think it’s needed as warriors already have two weapons with great built-in mobility , as well as access to permanent swiftness (for self and allies) if we want it.

I also don’t think we need Embrace the Pain to be viable like we need Fast Hands, but it wouldn’t hurt, it wouldn’t lead to a lot of power creep given how many people run Cleansing Ire currently, it would take pressure off of CI leaving it as a very good condi cleanse, and it would certainly fit thematically and mechanically with how warriors are built.

@Kagamiku:

• Sure, whatever floats your boat.
• Whoops, yes, I didn’t mean to have anything except traits set there
• You unable to answer those questions I gave? Previous posts or the most recent?
• How about those weapon coefficients? Still waitiing
• Anything to say about the coefficients I showed that showed your coefficient comment to be incorrect?
• Anything to say about how you claimed that Warrior can do full zerk but many of the meta builds are full zerk?

Just curious. All I’m seeing is what looks like teen angst when what I’d like is to have a discussion with an adult.

@Choppy:
I didn’t intend to have any runes/sigils/amulets on that build. Please go back and note I said “here’s just the traits” when I linked it. Heck, it doesn’t even have Runes of the Soldier … a key part of a shout build. That’s what happens when you just go from a previous build, switch class, and only reset the traits. You are quite right though … retaliation is much weaker without power.

Making something baseline does make a class more powerful as now there is no investment tied with having it. It could be bleeds on crit that we’re talking about. It would make the class more powerful as they are getting more than they could before. The follow-up question then is “how much more powerful”. Is there something with this you disagree with?

I do agree that warrior currently isn’t overpowered. Even the coveted shout build can be taken down 1v1 by a condition build.

I’m not sure whether or not they would be OP with Fast Hands made baseline… especially since we’ve had zero play time and are waiting on the rest of the Specialization info for Warriors. This leads to what I’ve been saying for so long now … we don’t know enough to be certain what the state of the warrior will be with the upcoming changes. Do you disagree?

If you don’t disagree … then how can you be so certain that Fast Hands needs to be made baseline as the two thoughts seem quite contradictory to me … or can you explain how they are not.

We don’t know:

• What the condition changes are going to look like
• What the stats only from gear is going to look like
• The final numbers and structure of each class’s specializations and the new builds that will come from it
• All the elite specializations, their new traits, new weapon skills, and new heals/utilities/elites
• How the meta will change due to all of the above.

That is quite a large number of variables … yet there are so many of you that seem to think you can see the future or something and know that Fast Hands must be baseline.

Hmmm, first time I’ve seen “gish gallop”, but I can see how you’d think that. Perhaps if people would stick to one thing at a time I could just drill on that until we’re both/all satisfied before moving on to the next … but as has happened so far, there have been multiple points so I’ve asked questions about each. Should I have just ignored them instead of trying to delve more into each? Obviously, I don’t think so but feel free to give the rationale if you disagree.

I disagree with you about Embrace Pain. I’m much more apt to think that Embrace Pain should be baseline than I am to think that Fast Hands should be. Not to say that I think it should be, but I could see that more easily than I could see Fast Hands needing to be baseline.

I’m horribly confused by your statement about it …

• You think Embrace Pain would lead to a lot of power creep given how many people run Cleansing Ire currently
• But you don’t Fast Hands would be power creep even though you’ve also asserted that many people run Fast Hands currently.

Do you see the issue there?

I’m curious why you think Warriors need Fast Hands but don’t need Embrace the Pain.

I agree with you as far as not needing Warrior’s Sprint and for the same reasons you’ve stated.

Sebrent.3625:

@Kagamiku:

• Sure, whatever floats your boat. -

Add me in game. Kagamiku.9731

• You unable to answer those questions I gave? Previous posts or the most recent?

Going back and forth over the same points is obviously something you enjoy doing. I find it to be tedious and a waste of time, so at this point I rather just pvp you.

• How about those weapon coefficients? Still waitiing

• Anything to say about the coefficients I showed that showed your coefficient comment to be incorrect?

You fail to realize that weapon coefficient doesn’t determine what someone is capable of in pvp. What it determines is how much damage you can do against an unmoving target. Classes that can stick to targets like glue or deal mostly ranged damage will do far more damage than a class that is easily kited. You also fail to take into account weapon felocity. Greatsword and hammer is clunky and slow you can’t compare it to something like ranger longbow. The only fast weapons we have is sword and axe. And guess what, barely anyone uses axe and sword has a lower coefficient than ranger LB.

• Anything to say about how you claimed that Warrior can do full zerk but many of the meta builds are full zerk?

Because competitively they don’t. What hotjoin heroes or players trying something new in a qued match do doesn’t have much relevance. A zerker warrior is still inferior to other zerker builds.

Just curious. All I’m seeing is what looks like teen angst when what I’d like is to have a discussion with an adult.

Don’t confuse my personality with my attitude. My personality is who I am, my attitude depends on who you are. And lets just say you’re good at putting people in a very annoyed state. You’re the type that could go on about this for the next year without conceding any points regardless how many people disagree or show point to why you’re wrong.

@Sebrent
The only cost to Fast Hands now is one trait point (for the actual trait), and the forced build rigidity it requires (currently a three point investment, though with the new content, a full trait line).

Put another way, the cost for Fast Hands is the value you would have gotten if you’d invested elsewhere minus the value you got investing in Discipline. This is called opportunity cost.

If all warriors are running Fast Hands now, then the gain to warriors from making it baseline is solely the opportunity cost and this has nothing to do with the value of the trait itself. If that’s not clear, consider warriors now and after Fast Hands is hypothetically made baseline… both have 5s weapon swaps.

So what does that opportunity cost look like? Well, it’s currently the net value of one more trait point (likely, but not necessarily a minor) and the glorious chance to explore a more diverse set of build options.

Once the new content drops, which is when something like this would go into effect, it’s simply the chance to not choose Discipline and still be viable. Discipline is still a very good traitline, so the net gain in terms of power is not going to be that high in relation to other players, but the quality of life for warriors now able to run greater depth of builds will be considerable, even just counting what they’ve already revealed.

I don’t think Embrace the Pain would lead to much power creep (look again). I actually think it would be a good idea to make it baseline, but its importance is less than Fast Hands because there are other traits, utilities and fast striking skills with which to build adrenaline. Still, I favour making it baseline.

We don’t have all of the information yet, but we do have 5/6 of the traitlines revealed and we already know the skills for all but one of the warrior’s weapons. We also know that none of the classes that have been revealed have been radically redeveloped. That’s quite a lot of data to work from, frankly.

If you want to take the position that maybe Anet will release something that will make Fast Hands less important for warriors, fine, but know that cuts both ways in that your argument against is rendered moot because you have no idea that they will.

Rather than take a “wait and see” approach, Juba (and others) have rightly brought the issue forward so the devs can at least be exposed to the reasons people think Fast Hands should be made baseline, consider it if they haven’t already and then either do it, don’t do it, or do something that meets the need without resorting to the proposed solution.

You arguing against while maintaining we don’t have enough information makes little sense, tbh.

Actually, those aren’t the same points, they are different from what you have “answered”. You still never answered the key questions I keep asking everyone … no one is answering those and they are very pertinent to the actual topic and are not complicated.

I didn’t fail to realize anything when I did the one example comparison for you…

• Are you saying that a Greatsword Warrior has a harder time sticking to a target than a Greatsword Ranger? Please explain given that the Warrior Greatsword has 2 gap closers to the Ranger Greatsword’s one. Otherwise, what’s your excuse for that coefficient issue there?
• I took into account attack speed (which animation speed is part of, FYI) when I did the one comparison I showed you … feel free to do others. I have yet to see you do one to support your claim.
• Sword has a lower coefficient than Ranger longbow? No duh. You’re comparing a hybrid/condition weapon that applies long duration bleeds (Sword) to a pure Power longbow. Does it not make sense to compare power weapons to power weapons, condi to condi, and hybrid to hybrid? Or are we just ignoring the actual uses of things when we compare them? If so, I should go make a post about how Necro power coefficient is horrible and compare their scepter to Warrior Axe.
• Those meta builds were WvW. I specified that. Everyone knows that Warrior has been pigeonholed into the shout build for sPvP. You want some build diversity in sPvP? Dethrone shout build or wait for the meta to want something different. It has a big chance to change in the near future. Currently, Warrior is far from the only pigeonholed class though.

As I explained to you before, I’m not dissuaded by a zerg of people who don’t provide some rationale discussion. If you want to have a rationale discussion, great. You started but then when I asked further questions you broke on me.

Also, as I explained before, this same zerg of people crap happened when I defended the Adrenaline changes to Warriors. I was saying that it was fine and Warrior was still quite viable despite (1) Losing adrenaline out of combat and (2) Losing adrenaline when a burst skill misses … but a huge zerg of people were just as vehemently against the idea that those changes were fine. They claimed Warrior was broken and no longer viable in any part of the game. They didn’t provide any solid reasoning as to why they thought this. So I was unconvinced. Fast forward to now … they were obviously wrong as Warrior still has those nerfs and is still quite viable in all three metas and just as no one is claiming Warrior is OP, I have not seen anyone claim Warrior is UP either … though I have seen some claims close to that … some UP if we don’t have X … which have yet to have valid arguments to support them.

If you want to change my mind, provide some rationale discussion and let’s pound the points. That’s actually productive. The crap where you try to make claims about me is just a waste of everyone’s time.

@Choppy:
I understand opportunity cost. Your evaluation of the opportunity cost being 1 trait point assumes that the Warrior is going to always invest 2 at least 2 points into Discipline because Fast Hands is currently 3 points into Discipline. That’s a considerable cost … though 1 less than Cleansing Ire.

As I believe we’ve both agreed though, that is largely moot. Whether or not something is baseline should be discussed within the context of the new Specialization System since that is where anyone is getting traits made baseline. Agreed?

As such, each trait does have that entire Specialization opportunity cost to it … or at a more fine-grained level, the Minors and potentially selected Majors of other Specializations. Do you not think that is a large opportunity cost to no longer have to pay if it was made baseline?

As far as whether people will continue to force themselves to take it and whether or not it is rationale, I don’t think that has as much to do with “Will Fast Hands be just as, if not more powerful, than it is now”. I think it has more do with “Is there something else that we’d rather have”.

I apologize for misreading what you said about Embrace the Pain leading to more power creep. Could you elaborate on why you don’t think the trait tied directly to your mechanic is as important as the one that is more indirect?

I think we’ll have to disagree on “radically redeveloped”. The Chronomancer has provided quite an abundance of build diversity for the Mesmer … at least in theory right now … obviously no one has gotten to playtest it and publicly speak on it yet … most certainly not the entire Mesmer community. The same could happen for the Warrior … or could not .. we will have to wait and see.

I’m am more than okay with someone bringing forth a concern, but I would like them to provide actual facts when they do it. Give your opinion and then give “why” that is your opinion. That is what is useful. An opinion without the “why” is as useful as brass kittens on a milk cow. That “why” needs to be facts … or other opinions that ultimately lead to being based off facts. I don’t care if it’s just “here are facts A, B, C and given those my intuition tells me X, Y, Z”. That’s awesome, great, and I can respect it … though I might ask for some elaboration.

You are quite right, that I can’t prove that it doesn’t need to change either given that I don’t have enough information just like no one else has enough information to prove that it does need to change … but, being a programmer, I generally adhere to the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” methodology. Currently, Warrior is doing fine. They are solid in every meta and have more build diversity than many others. As such, it makes more sense to me to “wait and see” instead of “change and see”. Does that make sense?

Ultimately, I think we all want balanced classes … all of them. Imbalance often impacts fun in a negative way … both being underpowered and overpowered “suck”. Right now I don’t see the warrior being either OP or UP without Fast Hands being baseline … but it could become OP if it did become baseline as that is an increase in power. Do you disagree with any of this paragraph?

I think we all also want each class to have a large amount of build diversity where each of those builds is “equally” viable … not just viable … in their respective metas. Build diversity leads to diversity in gameplay which helps things feel “fresh”. It gets very boring seeing most warriors playing the same build. It also is boring being the warrior and feeling forced into being a shout build. I use shouts because that is probably the biggest pigeonhole for warriors given it’s requested in two metas (sPvP and WvW zerg). I don’t think changing Fast Hands to be baseline will help fix that pigeonhole. If you disagree, please provide the rationale for why. Otherwise, I assume you agree with this whole paragraph as well.

If you truly look at my post history, you will see a long line of posts where I want to discuss the facts and how people think. If you don’t want to discuss those and want to just swing your e-genital around, spew anecdotes, and attack anyone that disagrees with you … I have very little patience for you.

Warning: while checking my history you will see bouts of silliness … like “How to emasculate your opponents”. This may result in you being flooded with images of unicorns and music that will get stuck in your head … you’ve been warned :-)

Sebrent.3625:

Actually, those aren’t the same points, they are different from what you have “answered”. You still never answered the key questions I keep asking everyone … no one is answering those and they are very pertinent to the actual topic and are not complicated.

I’ve answered every question you asked up until I got tired of answering your questions. If you don’t like the answer, whatever, nothing can be done.

I didn’t fail to realize anything when I did the one example comparison for you…

• Are you saying that a Greatsword Warrior has a harder time sticking to a target than a Greatsword Ranger? Please explain given that the Warrior Greatsword has 2 gap closers to the Ranger Greatsword’s one. Otherwise, what’s your excuse for that coefficient issue there?

Ranger GS is used in a completely different way than warrior GS and it is far easier to burst with it. Ranger uses their LB skills then uses bow 3, swaps to GS and dazes + blows their two high damage sword skills. Ranger also has a knockback and block with sword 4. Warrior has…one good and reliable damage skill on their GS, whirlwind attack.You have a habit of comparing weapons and skills at their most basic level. There are a lot more GS rangers than there is GS warriors. Mobility is the only thing warrior GS has going for it…Ranger GS has so much more. As far as a ranger needing to “keep up”. They don’t need to. They have LB and it does a crapton of damage. They need only use GS when someone closes in on them.

• Sword has a lower coefficient than Ranger longbow? No duh. You’re comparing a hybrid/condition weapon that applies long duration bleeds (Sword) to a pure Power longbow.

It’s also a ranged weapon compared to a melee weapon. Melee should hit far harder than ranged. Look how terrible warrior LB damage is compared to ranger LB. See? Comparing auto attack damage is misinformed at best and kittened at worse. Weapon utility and the classes overall ability to keep up with the target plays just as much of a roll.

Does it not make sense to compare power weapons to power weapons, condi to condi, and hybrid to hybrid? Or are we just ignoring the actual uses of things when we compare them? If so, I should go make a post about how Necro power coefficient is horrible and compare their scepter to Warrior Axe.

And comparing a ranged hybrid weapon with a melee hybrid weapon is fair? The funny thing is you almost never see warriors running axe, and yet scepter is fairly common because it’s meta for terrormancers. “Axe does so much damage! There is just one catch…barely any warriors use it!” That really drives your point home.

• Those meta builds were WvW. I specified that. Everyone knows that Warrior has been pigeonholed into the shout build for sPvP. You want some build diversity in sPvP? Dethrone shout build or wait for the meta to want something different. It has a big chance to change in the near future. Currently, Warrior is far from the only pigeonholed class though.

WvW, this whole discussion has been about pvp. It’s the only balance that truly matters as pve and wvw are imbalanced by nature. Warrior is hardly even part of the meta in wvw at this point anyways. Necro wells are so much better than warriors since warriors can’t even get into melee range anymore after the stability change.

As I explained to you before, I’m not dissuaded by a zerg of people who don’t provide some rationale discussion. If you want to have a rationale discussion, great. You started but then when I asked further questions you broke on me.

Because one answer lead to two more questions, and two lead to four. There is no point debating with someone that wont move an inch and already has their mind made up.

Also, as I explained before, this same zerg of people crap happened when I defended the Adrenaline changes to Warriors. I was saying that it was fine and Warrior was still quite viable despite (1) Losing adrenaline out of combat and (2) Losing adrenaline when a burst skill misses ..

This isn’t the same thing. The pre-adrenaline nerf was speculation on what may become of warriors. The FH debate is how little versatility warrior has because they’re all forced into the discipline line because of it. Don’t you think someone would have come up with a competitive build that didn’t use FH by now if it existed? It sounds to me like you just don’t want warriors to have versatility. It’s going to do very little in terms of buffing them. It’s going to give them one additional minor trait…it’s a very minor buff. So long as FH is a selectable trait, everyone will continue to use it.

I showed you why “I don’t like the answers” … because they have no substance. No backing to them. If you’d like to support them with some facts … go for it.

You are correct that they use them differently, but what you’ve shown here is that the Ranger wants to use abilities 2 through 5 on his Greatsword and then likely wants to go back to his Longbow. He definitely is hurt more by being forced to auto-attack for 5 more seconds than the Warrior would be given the coefficients shown. That was the whole point of discussing the coefficients after all since you mentioned how warrior’s are so mediocre.

You are right that Melee should hit harder than Ranged … compare melee Power weapon to Ranged power weapon … then talk.

You completely missed the point I was making with the Necro scepter … /over-the-head.

This whole discussion has not only been about sPvP. If you have read the whole thing … which I’m thinking I’m the only person actually doing at this point … there have been points brought up outside the realm of sPvP.

If you look at my questions from other threads I’ve discussed facts in … if you answer the questions well, they don’t bring up other questions. Heck, I just thought of one thing you could have said during those questions because there were two reasons you gave where I was able to give other classes that have the same attribute … neither of those cases had the same two classes. In one it was Mesmer and Necro and another was two other classes. There’s your reasoning. You’re welcome. See how despite it weaking “my side” I list it? It’s because I don’t have “a side” … I try to chase facts.

So if you go back and look, Mesmer and Necro would benefit more with their class mechanic from having faster weapon swaps. Thief and Ranger would benefit more with some traits from having faster weapon swaps. Only warrior fits both of these scenarios.

Anyways, last point … the point of bringing up the adrenaline changes was to show that several people before said “Sebrent doesn’t play Warrior”, “Sebrent doesn’t know something”, “Sebrent is a cow”, blah blah blah … but they ended up being wrong. I go for facts. Not how many people think something. Not how people feel. Facts.

If you say something I agree with tomorrow that is backed up with some facts … I’ll agree.

If you say something that isn’t backed up by facts, I’m going to point it out and ask for them regardless of if I agree or not.

Choppy.4183:

Besides, warriors already have Fast Hands. Making it baseline doesn’t give them the gift of shorter cooldowns, it gives the gift of greater build diversity.

See, that logic makes no sense to me. I’ll use Ranger for my example. Every WvW and PvP build after the trait changes will need to take Wilderness Survival for traited condition clears. Either Empathic Bond or Wilderness Knowledge. So since we will all need to take that trait line to get one of those, if we want traited condi clear, why not just make one of them baseline? It would certainly give Ranger the gift of greater build diversity.

@Sebrent
Look again. I didn’t assume any such thing when describing the opportunity cost, I said it was the value of what wasn’t chosen minus the value of what was.

You seem to be thinking of the cost as the number of points you have to invest in order to get the trait as though the traits along the way had no value. Moreover, with the new trait system it’s not that at all… the cost is, “what did I lose out on by choosing discipline, vs what I gained”.

If warriors are compelled to choose the Discipline line for the one trait (which is what most people are telling you), then the cost is high to them from the perspective of build diversity. If they were going to choose Discipline anyway because it’s optimal for their specific build(s) independent of FH, then there’s no cost for them.

If warriors will have Fast Hands regardless of whether or not it’s made baseline, then what is the sense in not making it baseline if the result is simply less diversity among warriors? In what way do warriors become more powerful if they aren’t compelled to take the Discipline line on the strength of a single trait?

Also, if all warriors (that we know of) trait Fast Hands now, and warriors aren’t presently overpowered, and every warrior here has said not traiting Fast Hands would make them underpowered, and you haven’t been able to find a build that doesn’t trait it, and the build you put together was unoptimized (and soon to be proven unviable, I think), what additional evidence do you need to show that warriors would be underpowered without Fast Hands?

And no, we don’t agree that this shouldn’t be discussed until after the final warrior changes are announced, and I already explained why. I said arguing against it makes little sense, particularly because we’re not talking about an increase in class power just a reduction of build rigidity.

Also, in what way was Chronomancer a class redevelopment? Additional options and theme, sure, but no redevelopment. The overhaul to traits, pulling out attributes, restricting builds to three lines, reorganizing the individual traits… that was a redevelopment, and a very good one, imo.

Name me a build without discipline that will be broken with baseline fast hands please.

People who think Fast Hands shouldn’t be baseline are literally using fail arguments. The only advantage that fast hands give that people complain about is.. on-swap advantage. And on-swap only really helps certain builds such as Tarcis’ Greatbow, shoutbow, and condi specs, and maybe soldier hammer. Only shoutbow is a real problem tbh though a shoutbow variation, in theory, without discipline won’t really work if fast hands were to be baseline.

Maybe fire/air + energy DPS builds without using discipline could be strong if fast hands become baseline. But I don’t believe it will be cancer either unless they give Warrior some instant cast mechanics.

For real though? Are you going to say.. Unsuspecting Foe will be OP with baseline fast hands? L2P, mace and hammer are already too telegraphed. Are you going to say.. Condi Warrior will be OP with baseline fast hands? There’s no point in picking that over shoutbow and it has no CC.

Like name me a build that will be OP with baseline fast hands without the discipline tree, please. I’m going to laugh if you say DPS warr will be op because that just shows you have zero reaction time and just bad to have an opinion.

So long as they keep Warrior telegraphed and not have too many evades on weapon skills, baseline fast hands will NOT HURT balancing.

P.S I still don’t understand why casuals are saying their opinion on why Fast Hands shouldn’t be baseline. That isn’t a big buff tbh.

BlackTruth.6813:

Name me a build without discipline that will be broken with baseline fast hands please.

Every build that only puts 3 points in Disc.

BlackTruth.6813:

…That isn’t a big buff tbh.

May as well just give it to every class then

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

BlackTruth.6813:

…That isn’t a big buff tbh.

May as well just give it to every class then

I would love to have this