Guild Wars 2

And this is how I know you don’t actually read the thread … just see one thing and then type … friggin stupid.

Let me quote some things so that maybe you’ll actually see them … I’ll even add bold Emphasis around some things that should interest you …

make it real easy since that is apparently what has to be done for you to see it because “reading is hard”.

Sebrent.3625:

7. From this whole discussion I’m starting to feel like Fast Hands is one of those traits like Illusionary Elasticity, Residual Venom, etc. that makes it hard to balance around. How do you balance an extra bounce that can make an ability do twice as much damage? How do you balance venoms that can do +25% more to +100% more when you have a single trait?

As such, I’m starting to lean towards it needing to just be baseline for that one reason … ease of balance.

That being said, if Fast Hands was made baseline, in my mind they’d need to look at the strength of on-swap sigils, Warrior on-swap traits, and Warrior weapon cooldowns. That isn’t saying that any of them need to be changed, but I think an analysis would be warranted. Agree?

I’m still unconvinced that it’s needed for any of the other reasons, but this one reason is becoming more and more convincing …

… if it hasn’t become apparent to you yet, I mull these things over in my head quite a bit and play both saids when I do. I think this is twice I’ve now given points for it being baselined :-p … both being things not mentioned before ;-)

Why do I have to argue both sides of this … gosh :-D

Sebrent.3625:

For the same reason I can now see FH being baseline, I could see Embrace the Pain being baseline … ease of balancing.

Heck, you’re likely at least doubling your adrenaline gain when you gain adrenaline when hit. How can you balance that?

Again though, it all needs an analysis because if you are going to get both baseline, some things need an extra look to ensure balance … otherwise you’ll become a friggin elementalist on the power curve and sPvP and PvE meta groups will become 2 Ele and 2 Warriors … leaving 1 slot for 7 classes to fight over :-p

… man … didn’t think I’d wind up agreeing to baselining both FH and Embrace Pain … but now that I’ve brought up talk about trying to balance without them baseline … it’s a tough thing to argue against (in my mind).

Sebrent.3625:

@FatRaKoon.1782:
I think we both agree that we don’t want any trait to be necessary in every build (hurts build diversity) … we’re just not sure how to make that not an issue. Agreed?

Totally.

Sebrent.3625:

Both Fast Hands and Cleansing Ire are such traits that come up when it comes to “necessary warrior traits”. Agreed? … so why are we just focused on Fast Hands?

Actually, that I do not know, good point. I discussed FH because it was the topic’s subject (before it was drowned into multiple other considerations) and I didn’t bother taking a look at the broader picture. But you’re absolutely right. Nonetheless, when I see how much things people (inlcuding myslef) have to say about FH alone, I think we didn’t need the extra brainstorm X) (or maybe later).

Sebrent.3625:

I think a big part of the Cele meta is the friggin Might Stacking. I hate that the meta is so boon-heavy. Boons = passive stats = passive gameplay. I’d prefer it get back to more evading the big hits while landing your own.

I couldn’t agree more. But from what I read here and there, meta could go back to a more “skilled” one as Cele stats are going to be nerfed (let’s see how it is done though).

Sebrent.3625:

Do you have any links to some teams successfully playing the new high risk/high reward comps? I haven’t been watching the most recent tournaments. My interest in PvP at the moment is much less given my pregnant wife can now interrupt me at any time of day/night … even when she’s supposed to be sleeping.

Hmm right now I can only think of TCG during last monthly ESL finals (I could provide you with a link if you wish). They didn’t exactly run the kind of comp I mentionned but they played very aggressively with two zerker builds and manage to out-DPS and outrun their opponents (which were strong too). As usual, some brilliant moves from Helseth who really brings a lot to his team.
In the end, they crushed their opponents who could do nothing because of the lack of DPS.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
@Julie Yann

what makes shoubow (or any longbow build) so strong is not the Cele amulet. It’s CI, not only is it a guaranteed condi cleanse but the adrenaline gain from it (even under light fire) allows you to spam a full fire field the moment it’s off CD and allows you to burst much earlier in the fight. That is why we are kind of pigeonholed I to the longbow meta. Heck, on some of my builds I can full burst on both weapons (with FH) continuously.

This isn’t really true though. I mean I agree that LB is a must have in sPvP because of CI, but Shoutbow build has been made strong by the Cele amulet.

What makes Shoutbow build effective is the insane amount of sustain that it provides to both the player that uses it and his teammates.

I have two proofs of what I say :
1) The Shoutbow build exists almost since the beginning of the game but has entered the meta only after the Celestial stats buff (quite long after, oddly enough).

2) If what you say is true, that CI makes Shoutbow what it is, then you should be able to play it with a Zerker amulet, Valkyirie or Rabid (as when the build was created) which you cannot (well not with the same success that is). Why ? (even if I reckon you already know it). Because :

• Celestial amulet = 638 Healing Power (or a 394 hp/sec with Healing Signet, not counting Adrenal Health’s regen), 2931 armor, 27602 HP, 438 condi damage, 193% crit damage for 1364 power and 25% crit chance.

• Rabid amulet = 200 Healing Power (or a 372 hp/sec), 3143 armor, 23222 HP, 932 condi damage, 163% crit damage for 926 power and 35% crit chance.

• Valkyrie amulet = 531 Healing Power, 3143 armor, 23222 HP, 0 condi damage, 193% crit damage for 1858 power and 4% crit chance.

All this to say that yes, LB is a must have for almost any warrior build because of CI, but CI is not the main reason behind the Shoutbow being meta.

@ TLDR.3625

You really don’t need to type all these walls.

the issue is very simple but i don’t know why you need to write GoT book because of that.

Simple, Warrior have 2 chains around his neck, Cleansing Ire and Fast Hands.

We are not asking much from Anet, just break One of these chains.

and no
“they’d need to look at the strength of on-swap sigils, Warrior on-swap traits, and Warrior weapon cooldowns.”
Because we already using FH and everything is fine.

For CI, if FH+WS made baseline then CI need to be left alone maybe just making it a minor trait so it doesnt kill its 2 neighboring traits, but this needs a separate thread.

@FatRaKoon:
Good points.

Do you agree with the baselining of FH and Embrace the Pain for the sake of ease of balancing?

@Juba:
“Walls” because several points are brought up and I’d like to address them instead of ignoring them which would make me feel like I was (1) providing a weak post and (2) disrespecting the time that person spent making that point.

I’m going to have to disagree that with these traits baselined that Sigils, Traits, and Cooldowns don’t have to even been looked at. It is power creep since you are getting something for nothing. Sure, most, if not everyone, takes these currently, but they are taking it at the expense of not taking something else. With it baseline, they no longer are taking it at the expense of anything … so some power is gained.

That being said, looking at them doesn’t mean any of them will need to be changed. Basically I’m advocating a “look before you jump”. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Seems pretty rationale :-p

Does this make my point clearer?
Do we agree or is there something we’re still disagreeing on?

P.S. tl;dr is for people who read slow and use it as a crutch. It’s a stupid thing that the generation that grew up with the information age already running smooth have adopted … oh no we have so much information at our fingertips … let’s not read any of it … so dumb … just as dumb as having a conversation without hearing/reading what the other person is saying.

Your comparisons between warriors and mesmers are very, very poor. The fact that you’re comparing them to begin with just shows your lack insight on warriors. Quality doesnt equal quantity. You can keep listing ways that warriors can build adrenaline, but fact remains compared to the ways mesmers can produce clones, there is no comparison to begin with. All mesmers builds have the things you’ve listed for clones, all warriors do not have what you’ve listed. You even listed a few that makes you seem desperate. Keep bringing this up if you like, but it’s not helping your case. Fact is you can’t compare classes based on their class mechanics alone. Not sure why you keep doing it. Once again, not helping your case. Also being snared, dazed, crippled, blinded, blocked, simply dodged, porting, stunned. Yes we do have a number of stuff that really kills our adrenaline burst skills.

High hp and more defence only gets you so far, against big burst it’s all the same. Damage mitigation through stealths, teleports, blinds, and blocks are much more valuable. I wouldn’t mind giving up some of our hp in turn for some protection.

You’re only cherry picking points you know you have something to say about. Give me another pvp build other than shoutbow that uses utilities that are considered offensive in pvp/wvw. Choosing to not remember me saying that 3 stances can be kited easily, it’s not making you look great. Now before you say some of other classes utilities can be kited, no, they can still retaliate thanks to the range of their skills. Guardians too may be kited, however their utilities don’t work in a way where they need to be kited.

And regarding your constant reference to electrolytes. No i have not seen the movie, nor was my comment related to anything to do with it or being compared to it. Yours just felt random, so i thought hey this looks fun, why not throw something random in too and boom tomatoes.

Now look, I am done with making any points, as i’ve said, we see things differently, and that’s fine. But if you’re gonna compare things, at least gain some proper insight on the class involved and compare them fairly, not just grabbing a few things here and there that look good on paper.

FatRaKoon.1782:

Sebrent.3625:

@FatRaKoon.1782:
I think we both agree that we don’t want any trait to be necessary in every build (hurts build diversity) … we’re just not sure how to make that not an issue. Agreed?

Totally.

Sebrent.3625:

Both Fast Hands and Cleansing Ire are such traits that come up when it comes to “necessary warrior traits”. Agree d? … so why are we just focused on Fast Hands?

Actually, that I do not know, good point. I discussed FH because it was the topic’s subject (before it was drowned into multiple other considerations) and I didn’t bother taking a look at the broader picture. But you’re absolutely right. Nonetheless, when I see how much things people (inlcuding myslef) have to say about FH alone, I think we didn’t need the extra brainstorm X) (or maybe later).

Sebrent.3625:

I think a big part of the Cele meta is the friggin Might Stacking. I hate that the meta is so boon-heavy. Boons = passive stats = passive gameplay. I’d prefer it get back to more evading the big hits while landing your own.

I couldn’t agree more. But from what I read here and there, meta could go back to a more “skilled” one as Cele stats are going to be nerfed (let’s see how it is done though).

Sebrent.3625:

Do you have any links to some teams successfully playing the new high risk/high reward comps? I haven’t been watching the most recent tournaments. My interest in PvP at the moment is much less given my pregnant wife can now interrupt me at any time of day/night … even when she’s supposed to be sleeping.

Hmm right now I can only think of TCG during last monthly ESL finals (I could provide you with a link if you wish). They didn’t exactly run the kind of comp I mentionned but they played very aggressively with two zerker builds and manage to out-DPS and outrun their opponents (which were strong too). As usual, some brilliant moves from Helseth who really brings a lot to his team.
In the end, they crushed their opponents who could do nothing because of the lack of DPS.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
@Julie Yann

what makes shoubow (or any longbow build) so strong is not the Cele amulet. It’s CI, not only is it a guaranteed condi cleanse but the adrenaline gain from it (even under light fire) allows you to spam a full fire field the moment it’s off CD and allows you to burst much earlier in the fight. That is why we are kind of pigeonholed I to the longbow meta. Heck, on some of my builds I can full burst on both weapons (with FH) continuously.

This isn’t really true though. I mean I agree that LB is a must have in sPvP because of CI, but Shoutbow build has been made strong by the Cele amulet.

What makes Shoutbow build effective is the insane amount of sustain that it provides to both the player that uses it and his teammates.

I have two proofs of what I say :
1) The Shoutbow build exists almost since the beginning of the game but has entered the meta only after the Celestial stats buff (quite long after, oddly enough).

2) If what you say is true, that CI makes Shoutbow what it is, then you should be able to play it with a Zerker amulet, Valkyirie or Rabid (as when the build was created) which you cannot (well not with the same success that is). Why ? (even if I reckon you already know it). Because :

• Celestial amulet = 638 Healing Power (or a 394 hp/sec with Healing Signet, not counting Adrenal Health’s regen), 2931 armor, 27602 HP, 438 condi damage, 193% crit damage for 1364 power and 25% crit chance.

• Rabid amulet = 200 Healing Power (or a 372 hp/sec), 3143 armor, 23222 HP, 932 condi damage, 163% crit damage for 926 power and 35% crit chance.

• Valkyrie amulet = 531 Healing Power, 3143 armor, 23222 HP, 0 condi damage, 193% crit damage for 1858 power and 4% crit chance.

All this to say that yes, LB is a must have for almost any warrior build because of CI, but CI is not the main reason behind the Shoutbow being rmeta.

I agree that Cele amulet has I deed made it quite a bit stronger but it was actually a pretty solid build long before the Cele changes. The Cele amulet has also benefited other professions just as well. Meanwhile, longbow has been a must have regardless of the amulet used. Remove the need to get CI and then there is a possibility for warriors to fulfill other roles using something other than a stupid bow.

@Julie.Yann & @FatRaKoon
I think you both have solid points on why it is effective

I think Julie.Yann has explained the core mechanics that make it strong and FatRaKoon has touched on how Cele has taken that power to the next level. Seems to me that you two essentially agree … unless I’m missing some.

@SilTheLimitless
Go sit at the kids-who-don’t-read table with the other two … or read and notice I agreed to baselining quite a few posts back now. Baselining two traits even.

You’re so far back on the posts that you’re replying to it’s not even funny at this point …

If you think I was cherry-picking, then please find something I didn’t touch on … though, sorry, that does require you to read.

I put forth a good deal of effort to try to not miss any points … hence my bloody walls of text that Juba is complaining about.

^^^

nah i think i made a bigger wall than yours.

Sebrent.3625:

@Julie.Yann & @FatRaKoon
I think you both have solid points on why it is effective

I think Julie.Yann has explained the core mechanics that make it strong and FatRaKoon has touched on how Cele has taken that power to the next level. Seems to me that you two essentially agree … unless I’m missing some.

@SilTheLimitless
Go sit at the kids-who-don’t-read table with the other two … or read and notice I agreed to baselining quite a few posts back now. Baselining two traits even.

You’re so far back on the posts that you’re replying to it’s not even funny at this point …

If you think I was cherry-picking, then please find something I didn’t touch on … though, sorry, that does require you to read.

I put forth a good deal of effort to try to not miss any points … hence my bloody walls of text that Juba is complaining about.

Well by me saying that I was done, i thought i gave the impression that i was done. But since you replied to me still, i just wanted to clear some things up on your reply. So no, i did not read anything else, because as I said before, i was done. But my bad if i hurt your feelings or anything. It’s not a thing where i intentionally meant to drag this on, as we all started sounding like broken records. Regardless though, this “argument” seems to have ended. No reason to continue it or anything any further, and don’t mind me if i’ve come across as a kitten. Easily carried away.

Anyway though, good day to you

No feelings were hurt … I would just prefer that if someone is going to post something … they actually know the current state of the discussion … not reply to posts several pages back that have already been discussed and done with …

Otherwise you’re just being a nuisance at best.

I think you are correct that for the most part, it’s done… unless someone has some fine details they still want to discuss … or wants to get onto a new, but related topic … like how to handle the current pigeon-hole that is the Warrior shout build.

if it’s not base line then every single build will have it.
if it is then good, people might start using other trait line combination.

no big deal

Definitely not being trollish here, but

To quote myself again…

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

To quote myself…

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

As a compromise, why not make weapon swapping 20% faster base and reduce FH to 30% faster? If you take FH, you get the same benefit, but also get a reasonable CD reduction without it and there doesn’t need to be another trait added.

20% is a decent gain, yet not overpowered as can be evidenced by Warrior runes, I suppose though if War runes had Power main stat, they would be a lot more attractive… regardless… 20% brings the swap to 8s and that is faster than the base burst skill CD with the trait changes, so it is kinda required imo. I just think a 50% reduction for no investment is too much.

I was hoping for at least some minor discussion based upon a compromise I can see being worth something, but I only got a 1 word troll out of it.

I 100% believe that Warrior weapon swapping should be faster than their Burst skill recharge, and since that is getting a buff, I cannot see a problem with a portion of FH being made base to make that the case. But I still think a 50% reduction in a common mechanic is too powerful for baseline.

Burst will have 8.5s CD base after changes, so 20% to swapping makes an 8s swap, base, then you can bring disc if you want to specialise in swapping and Burst skills. I don’t think 20% would need any balancing changes and no new traits need to be added.

@Heimskarl Ashfiend : Well this is always the same problem, no matter how smart or interesting this idea of yours is, one essential thing remains : your proposal is based on the current meta balance and on assumptions about what it could be after the changes.

I mean, if FH was to be made baseline, would it really be that unbalanced ? It sure is a powerful trait but it seems pretty modest when you take a look at how things could evolve to.
Just take a look at the spreadsheets about this new Alacrity buff (uptime calculations), exclusive to Chronomancers, they are scary.

So, in absolute terms, your idea doesn’t seem that dishonest, but in truth it might be underpowered in the next meta.

@Julie Yann : I see what you mean, and you’re right. CI currently forces us to take LB because it’s too good not to have it. The only thing I would temper is that even if LB would take quite the nerf without CI, it would still stay a good weapon. I mean, it would still have that huge fire aoe that puts pressure on an entire point, Pin Down and Smoldering Arrow which is soo good against thieves.

With all the means we have to cleanse/resist condi, this would even seem like a fair balance.

@Sebrent : Obviously this is what we were trying to achieve when we started that topic (trying to prove that FH should be made baseline)
But one thing bothers me though : I read every single posts on this thread and never saw the turning point in your reasoning ! What made you admit that FH should be made baseline ? I didn’t see you accept that it was “required” or “necessary”.

Besides, even though I agree on saying that the combination of FH + CI is powerful (for condi cleansing), it appears to be secondary to me. So I can’t believe that Julie Yann proposal (which I agree with, though) is what convinced you.

As I previously stated (or maybe it was somewhere else), even if the F1 cleanse is our most powerful and reliable one, it isn’t our primary weapon against condis : even with a nerf of CI, warrior would still be really hard to down with conditions. So what actually made you change your mind ?

Sebrent.3625:

@Juba: I believe I’ve provided more evidence of doing well as a Warrior than you have. I guess we’ll ignore that too :-p

This made me giggle.

Seriously, I don’t get why you are going through all these lengths to make a point of warrior not having FH baseline.

The reason I don’t get it is that you could just provide us with a viable warrior build without FH that does not improve when you do implement FH, and we can all say we are wrong and you are right and end this topic.

FYI, I am being cynical, not hostile.

Yeah but actually, he changed his mind not so long ago ! (and is going to snap at you for not reading his previous comments underlining this statement :P ).

What brought me to wonder why/how did this occur XD. I read everything and didn’t find the argument that finally convinced him !

(@Sebrent : this post was not written in a mocking tone, just so you know).

It was not anyone’s argument that swayed his change of opinion.

Sebrent.3625:

As such, I’m starting to lean towards it needing to just be baseline for that one reason … ease of balance.

That being said, if Fast Hands was made baseline, in my mind they’d need to look at the strength of on-swap sigils, Warrior on-swap traits, and Warrior weapon cooldowns. That isn’t saying that any of them need to be changed, but I think an analysis would be warranted. Agree?

I’m still unconvinced that it’s needed for any of the other reasons, but this one reason is becoming more and more convincing …

… if it hasn’t become apparent to you yet, I mull these things over in my head quite a bit and play both saids when I do. I think this is twice I’ve now given points for it being baselined :-p … both being things not mentioned before ;-)

Why do I have to argue both sides of this … gosh :-D

Sebrent.3625:

For the same reason I can now see FH being baseline, I could see Embrace the Pain being baseline … ease of balancing.

Heck, you’re likely at least doubling your adrenaline gain when you gain adrenaline when hit. How can you balance that?

Again though, it all needs an analysis because if you are going to get both baseline, some things need an extra look to ensure balance … otherwise you’ll become a friggin elementalist on the power curve and sPvP and PvE meta groups will become 2 Ele and 2 Warriors … leaving 1 slot for 7 classes to fight over :-p

… man … didn’t think I’d wind up agreeing to baselining both FH and Embrace Pain … but now that I’ve brought up talk about trying to balance without them baseline … it’s a tough thing to argue against (in my mind).

Changing sides based on additional thought? What is this sorcery? Hooray for science! I however still remain a skeptic.

FatRaKoon.1782:

Yeah but actually, he changed his mind not so long ago ! (and is going to snap at you for not reading his previous comments underlining this statement :P ).

What brought me to wonder why/how did this occur XD. I read everything and didn’t find the argument that finally convinced him !

(@Sebrent : this post was not written in a mocking tone, just so you know).

Thanks for enlightening me, the incredible walls of text meant I didn’t read through the whole thing.

Whether it’s PvP or PvE, as long as Fast Hands trait exists, warrior will use it in pretty much every build. So, yes, something has to be done about it.
I see 3 options:
A. Buff other trait lines so we would pick them over FH.
B. Remove FH completely.
C. Make FH baseline.

The first option sounds perfect, right? We get to keep FH and have build diversity…
Well, nope. Buffing one trait line won’t be enough. There will have to be at least 3 of them that you would want to take over FH (and FH is OP, right?). Imagine the power creep.

The second option isn’t much better. Removing FH will be another unneeded nerf to warriors in PvE and will put them at the bottom of the food chain in PvP. For warrior to be viable without FH they will have to do a massive rework of the whole profession, and there is no guarantee it will end up being good. Most likely it will be a broken mess that will take ages to balance properly.

And finally, making FH baseline, will also cause a power creep, but not as bad the 1st option. It will open up some new builds, and in case any of them turn out to be too strong, they can always be nerfed down to acceptable level (allowing Anet to continue with their favorite pastime of nerfing warriors).

When people say viable are they actually meaning optimal? The forums tend to confuse the terms. If that isn’t the case there may need to be a clarification of meaning.

When I said viable I meant viable. In case of PvP, if something is not optimal, it is most likely not viable either.

Ozzrel.9825:

When I said viable I meant viable. In case of PvP, if something is not optimal, it is most likely not viable either.

Unfortunately that is just the way things are in a competitive setting. Nothing but the best of the best is considered acceptable.

I think we’re all mostly on the same page and just discussing the finer points now to better understand who each other things … as well as clarifying any points that some people missed before … and occasionally still repeating ourselves due to people not reading :-p

I’d say this thread has gotten to a good place :-) Kudos to people’s perseverance.

@Heimskarl:
I like the idea behind reducing the difference between Warrior’s base Weapon Swap cooldown and Weapon Swap cooldown with Fast Hands. I feel that’s in the same vein as what I’ve been stating recently on what helps balancing. It would make Fast Hands less of a +100% increase in weapon swap capability which would make it easier to balance. I could see that being a viable solution to just baselining Fast Hands.

@FatRaKoon:
For when I changed my mind and why, look at point #7 in this post. I still don’t accept the logic that it is “necessary” or “required” … I’d be just has happy if Fast Hands disappeared (and Warrior compensated in some way(s), of course as I feel that would most definitely be necessary if you removed such a powerful trait as an option) as that would also accomplish the same in helping with being able to balance moving forward … I’ll touch on this again in my reply to Cygnus.

If something I’ve said isn’t clear related to “ease of balancing”, do please let me know and I’ll try to clarify. I know I’m not always the clearest person; especially when trying to quickly reply while waiting on some compiler or test suite to finish at work.

This old man is tired of “snapping” at those who don’t read. They probably don’t read the “snap” anyways so I’m wasting my time doing that just like I am repeating myself to most of them (thankfully some are reading at least some).

@Cygnus:
I already agreed to FH being baseline … for the reason that it would drastically improve the ability to balance Warrior moving forward and would likely be better accepted than just removing FH and balancing around that as, let’s be honest, we all love the heck out of Fast hands. It’s probably one of the best-loved traits people can take because it’s just that good (on paper and in game) and feels great to have in a build.

Just providing a build would not be adequate proof in either direction. I’ve discussed that to death. Please read the walls of text if you truly care why. Otherwise, I see no reason to repeat things for a 3rd / 4th / 5th / etc. time as each new person who refuses to read joins the thread.

@Ozzrel:
Precisely.

I already agreed with option C and I have yet to see anyone disagree with that agreement nor my reasoning for it … though some may just be happy with the idea of it being baselined and not care about “why” still :-p.

I agree on your logic for each of the options, A,B,C …

For Option A, I said this before, but you could also accomplish that diversity by providing some synergy of three non-Discipline traitlines that is so good that it warrants taking those three instead of Fast Hands.

You could also provide some synergy/trait that is as good as Fast Hands but conflicts with Fast Hands … motivating players to not take both. Now they choose between two equally strong options.

Option B, as I said in reply to Cygnus, would warrant some buffs to Warrior in some way as removing access to such a widely used and powerful trait would likely require recompense.

Heimskarl’s idea could help with Option A or be a completely different option in itself … but I think that could be the most difficult one to balance around as you’re still having to balance around a pretty sizeable difference in weapon swap capability and that interacts with:

• Weapon skill cooldowns
• Weaponset synergies
• Swap sigils
• Swap traits

@Bran, @Ozzrel, @Julie Yann:

It could benefit everyone if we all agreed on the definition of viable.

I’ve been going forward with viable as “able to compete on equal footing with other classes”. It is not viable if it puts you at an obvious disadvantage. Easy example: A build with power weapons but taking condition damage instead of power is easily identified as “not viable”.

I use optimal for “what best competes”.

One thing I think many people forget to look at when it comes to what is “most competitive” is that the meta plays a big part in that. For example, if shoutbow and elementalist weren’t such key parts of the current sPvP meta then I imagine we’d see more Condition builds making some headway into being part of the meta. It is

Like I said, didn’t want to read through the walls of text. Honestly, there are 8 pages in this topic already. I also think they got merged cause I was in a much younger thread then this one before.

Let it gooo … let it gooooo … whatever the other lyrics to this song are …

I can understand, but if you’d at least read the recent ones (since I repeated myself multiple times), then you would have seen the agreement on baselining was already made.

Let’s move on and focus on the current conversation. Okay?

Apologies if I got that song stuck in your head … I could’ve gotten worse songs stuck there though >:-)

Sebrent.3625:

For Option A, I said this before, but you could also accomplish that diversity by providing some synergy of three non-Discipline traitlines that is so good that it warrants taking those three instead of Fast Hands.

That is another idea that seems to be good at first glance, but might end up being terrible. If it works only if you take all 3 parts, it will have to be really good for people to go for it, locking warriors into specific trait lines once again. At best it will be an equally good alternative to FH builds, opening up one more possible build, at worst it will be too OP to consider anything else.

Aye, good points … and exactly why I’m now pretty convinced that for the sake of balancing moving forward:

• Fast Hands should be made baseline … balancing +0% swap speed versus +100% from a single trait is a bit crazy
• Embrace the Pain should be pulled out of Cleansing Ire and made baseline … against, balancing +0% adrenaline gain versus +100% (or greater) adrenaline gain from a single trait is a bit crazy … even more when that trait also provides such great access to cleanses.

These seem like the cleanest solutions and the easiest to work with moving forward. With them baseline, you don’t have to ask for every new skill, sigil, trait, etc. … how does this work with the +0% versus the +100% (for either or both) … and try to balance around both.

I feel that CI will still be a problem. In CI’s case, I think removal will be the best option. Then the condition cleansing it provides could be added to various other traits/skills, so you would still be able to get as much condi removal, but it wouldn’t come in one big chunk. As it is now, there is simply no reason not to take it.

Ozzrel.9825:

I feel that CI will still be a problem. In CI’s case, I think removal will be the best option. Then the condition cleansing it provides could be added to various other traits/skills, so you would still be able to get as much condi removal, but it wouldn’t come in one big chunk. As it is now, there is simply no reason not to take it.

We are getting some buffs to our other cleansing options so CI would take have the monopoly over cleansing anymore.

@Ozzrel:
Perhaps. I was focusing more on the adrenaline gained when hit (hence Embrace the Pain) as opposed to the entirety of Cleansing Ire.

@Julie Yann:
Any you’re thinking of in particular or just all of them?

I think this was an interesting thread and I’m glad I could read all of your opinions, but I think I’m going to withdraw from that one since I think we discussed everything that was to discuss (at least what was relevant to me).

So goodbye and see you on another thread

Gotta agree with you on Fast Hands, it’s basically a must-have trait, and should really be rolled in baseline. When you have 90% of warrior builds – and 100% of all warrior-meta builds – using one trait using the same trait, its time to re-examine things.

Warrior Sprint I disagree on though. That’s definitely trait worthy.

@Dand
If you’re saying it should be baseline because it’s a “must have” and/or because it is used by a majority of build … I’m going to disagree with you reasoning for why it should be made baseline … view past 7 pages for more details ;-)

Warrior Sprint, I agree (as have many others), that is does not need to be made baseline. Warrior has plenty of mobility options and +25% movespeed is far easier to account for when balancing.

You disagree that it should be made baseline because it is a “must have”, and say it should be baseline because it is hard to balance around it. But it is hard to balance because it is a must have :>

@Ozzrel:
No, it is hard to balance around because there is an enormous difference to +0% to your weapon swap recharge and +100% to your weapon swap recharge. To balance around that, the +0% needs to be capable of the same power as the +100% … that is difficult … not just here but with other traits I’ve listed before that change the effectiveness of something(s) by such a large percent.

As I stated before when replying to Heimskarl’s idea, if it was changed so that it was a much smaller % difference, then it would be much easier to balance around. However, as I stated before, I think that would be more difficult to maintain balance with than just making it baseline … though simply because balancing for two states is harder than balancing for one state.

It being a “must have” has nothing to do with its ease/difficulty to balance. Players don’t care how easy/difficult a given skill/trait/sigil/rune is for ArenaNet to balance when they are making their builds. They care about how powerful they are. It being a “must have” has to do with its power.

Sebrent.3625:

I still don’t accept the logic that it is “necessary” or “required”

You are on the wrong page if thats so.

Sebrent.3625:

Aye, good points … and exactly why I’m now pretty convinced that for the sake of balancing moving forward:

• Fast Hands should be made baseline … balancing +0% swap speed versus +100% from a single trait is a bit crazy
• Embrace the Pain should be pulled out of Cleansing Ire and made baseline … against, balancing +0% adrenaline gain versus +100% (or greater) adrenaline gain from a single trait is a bit crazy … even more when that trait also provides such great access to cleanses.

These seem like the cleanest solutions and the easiest to work with moving forward. With them baseline, you don’t have to ask for every new skill, sigil, trait, etc. … how does this work with the +0% versus the +100% (for either or both) … and try to balance around both.

Again, if you want Warriors even consider dropping DISC, then making FH baseline is not enough,and we would have achieved nothing.

there are 2 traits other than FH which are just too good, Warrior’s Sprint & Versatile Rage, WS is more of QoL than VR, if we get FH+WS baseline all the other lines including the new SPEC will have a chance against DISC, DISC will still be good but not that required.

Warrior’s Sprint then need to be tweaked by removing the “Mobile Strikes” merged with it.

that ONE chain broken, and i can live with the other chain.

IF THAT HAPPENED

then no need to change anything about Cleansing Ire, maybe just make it a Minor so it doesn’t kill it 2 neighboring traits.

More about Cleansing Ire and Defense line in general here : A Better Defense Line

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

It was not anyone’s argument that swayed his change of opinion.

Sebrent.3625:

As such, I’m starting to lean towards it needing to just be baseline for that one reason … ease of balance.

That being said, if Fast Hands was made baseline, in my mind they’d need to look at the strength of on-swap sigils, Warrior on-swap traits, and Warrior weapon cooldowns. That isn’t saying that any of them need to be changed, but I think an analysis would be warranted. Agree?

I’m still unconvinced that it’s needed for any of the other reasons, but this one reason is becoming more and more convincing …

… if it hasn’t become apparent to you yet, I mull these things over in my head quite a bit and play both saids when I do. I think this is twice I’ve now given points for it being baselined :-p … both being things not mentioned before ;-)

Why do I have to argue both sides of this … gosh :-D

Sebrent.3625:

For the same reason I can now see FH being baseline, I could see Embrace the Pain being baseline … ease of balancing.

Heck, you’re likely at least doubling your adrenaline gain when you gain adrenaline when hit. How can you balance that?

Again though, it all needs an analysis because if you are going to get both baseline, some things need an extra look to ensure balance … otherwise you’ll become a friggin elementalist on the power curve and sPvP and PvE meta groups will become 2 Ele and 2 Warriors … leaving 1 slot for 7 classes to fight over :-p

… man … didn’t think I’d wind up agreeing to baselining both FH and Embrace Pain … but now that I’ve brought up talk about trying to balance without them baseline … it’s a tough thing to argue against (in my mind).

Changing sides based on additional thought? What is this sorcery? Hooray for science! I however still remain a skeptic.

I believe that though fast hands would be beneficial to keep baseline as long as warrior is balanced around it CI should not become baseline because of the insane anti condi utility it provides to class with strong resistance to condis already.

What if warriors had a baseline 7,5 second weapon swap? Then you can get an additional 2,5 seconds off if you go into Discipline. That way, you can choose not to get it and not be handicapped completely, whereas Discipline still remains a great traitline to pick.

Cygnus.6903:

What if warriors had a baseline 7,5 second weapon swap? Then you can get an additional 2,5 seconds off if you go into Discipline. That way, you can choose not to get it and not be handicapped completely, whereas Discipline still remains a great traitline to pick.

Wouldn’t work.

You would still pick DISC even if we get 5s FH baseline, because of Warrior’s Sprint and Versatile Rage, the same key traits that you pick with 3 points invensments currently.

FH as baseline is not enough for a warrior to consider dropping DISC.

Juba.8406:

Cygnus.6903:

What if warriors had a baseline 7,5 second weapon swap? Then you can get an additional 2,5 seconds off if you go into Discipline. That way, you can choose not to get it and not be handicapped completely, whereas Discipline still remains a great traitline to pick.

Wouldn’t work.

You would still pick DISC even if we get 5s FH baseline, because of Warrior’s Sprint and Versatile Rage, the same key traits that you pick with 3 points invensments currently.

FH as baseline is not enough for a warrior to consider dropping DISC.

OMG why even bother having this conversation!? What do you want? Just make all of Discipline baseline?

Build diversity was the argument, now that it is achieved with FH being baseline (theoretically) you still are not happy because you can’t take advantage of the traits in disc it synergises with and choose discipline anyway! Hampering your own build diversity! LOL Ridiculous!

Just proves to me that the apparent “mandatory” nature of FH is player created as is the lack of build diversity. You are just whining because you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

What do you want?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Make-Fast-Hands-Warrior-Sprint-Baseline/first

I see a number of builds that would be viable without discipline if FH was baseline, personally. Even my current h/gs roamer could skip disc if it wasn’t tied to FH and crit damage.

Choppy.4183:

I see a number of builds that would be viable without discipline if FH was baseline, personally. Even my current h/gs roamer could skip disc if it wasn’t tied to FH and crit damage.

This.

Warrior’s Sprint is also definitely not mandatory on a class that has easy access to a lot of swiftness. And even then you could take Traveler runes.

It will be more problematic when they add the immobilise cleansing to it, as that will be very useful.

Cygnus.6903:

It will be more problematic when they add the immobilise cleansing to it, as that will be very useful.

undo the merge with “Mobile Strikes” and make it a major trait.

@Juba:
So now you’re asking for 2 additional traits to just be made baseline?

I see no logic whatsoever supporting you desiring these and others warriors have also said that Warrior Sprint is not required at all.

I see nothing other than greed supporting your desire for these other traits to be baselined as well.

@Sadrien
I agree. I’m not advocating Cleansing Ire being baseline. I’m advocating that it have Embrace the Pain taken back out of it and only Embrace the Pain be made baseline; again, for the sake of ease of balancing moving forward.

@Cygnus:
Heimskarl has suggested something like that earlier in this thread. It could accomplish roughly the same though it would still be technically harder to balance around then just making it baseline or removing it completely. It would definitely be an improvement though.

Sebrent.3625:

@Juba:
So now you’re asking for 2 additional traits to just be made baseline?

I see no logic whatsoever supporting you desiring these and others warriors have also said that Warrior Sprint is not required at all.

I see nothing other than greed supporting your desire for these other traits to be baselined as well.

Then we achieved nothing, DISC will still be dominating.

WS is more of QoL for warrior and make Anet description of Warrior true, either we get it now or QQ about it for the next 6 months.

Do you have any way to show that even if Fast Hands was made baseline that Discipline would still be a must-have because of Warrior’s Sprint and Versatile Rage.

I think you still don’t understand the difference between “needed” and “nice to have” … or “balance”.

As far as Warrior’s being mobile … as was explained to you numerous times by other people, Warrior already has plenty of access to Swiftness and movement abilities on their weapon sets.

Sebrent.3625:

Do you have any way to show that even if Fast Hands was made baseline that Discipline would still be a must-have because of Warrior’s Sprint and Versatile Rage.

I think you still don’t understand the difference between “needed” and “nice to have” … or “balance”.

As far as Warrior’s being mobile … as was explained to you numerous times by other people, Warrior already has plenty of access to Swiftness and movement abilities on their weapon sets.

I’m still waiting for a build will be broken with “base-line” fast hands. So far you literally have no clue what you’re talking about and you keep saying Fast Hands baseline should never happen. Like, okay you may use “People are going to use discipline anyways, why make fast hands baseline? Isn’t that a waste of time?”

But a NON DISCIPLINE build with fast-hands wouldn’t hurt to have considering the power creep is happening, yet you keep getting worked up over this.

Just stupidly incompetent arguments tbh, the people saying Fast Hands shouldn’t be baseline with the upcoming power creep which will BUFF ALL CLASSES. Also, lets keep Warrior sprint baseline “one” of the incentives to make discipline stay attractive. I want my DEF + STR + ARMS Warrior with baseline fast hands. And if you’re saying THAT is op? You have pathetic reaction time.

For real though, name me a build that will be OP with baseline fast hands considering you’re so worked up about this.

Incompetence? You mean like what is shown by replying to a thread when you don’t know the current state of it or what is even currently being discussed now? Amusing.

BlackTruth … it’s obvious from your post that::

• You have not been reading the thread
• hence you have no clue what the current state of the thread is

Why do I say this? Because:

• I agreed to both Fast Hands and Embrace the Pain being baselined … even repeated myself several times now because people like you give the impression that “reading is hard”
• You are acting like I’m arguing against Fast Hands being baseline … even though my last post mentioned it being baselined and was asking about other traits … even though I agreed to Fast Hands being made baselined … heck my last several posts have mentioned Fast Hands being baselined.

If you aren’t going to read the thread, you are quite unlikely to contribute anything meaningful. To be bluntly honest, I’m not surprised … except that you didn’t try to plug your stream in this thread.

Now, if you want arguments why it isn’t required … read the thread … but evidence shows you quite likely wont do that … I already provided what you asked for earlier … but it is moot given that it has been agreed on for a while that Fast Hands should be made baseline; just for other reasons (ease of balancing moving forward).

Sebrent.3625:

Why do I say this? Because:

• I agreed to both Fast Hands and Embrace the Pain being baselined … even repeated myself several times now because people like you give the impression that “reading is hard”

these are 2 half solutions.

Even with those, DEF will be picked and DISC will be picked.

How about we get a full solution for JUST ONE of these.

No need to do anything about Cleansing Ire, just make it minor so it dosent kill the 2 other traits.

and Make FH + WS Baseline, we can live with CI as its.

Half solution depending on what you’re aiming for. I agree to Fast Hands and Cleansing Ire baseline for the ease of future balancing.

If you still think those two traitlines are auto-include, give “why”. Right now you are just posting your opinion with none of the reasoning as to why it is still your opinion even at this point.

Likewise I’m still waiting to hear about Warrior’s Sprint. Other’s have given you many arguments why it isn’t “needed”. You have not provided any counter points. I currently agree with the others that it is not “needed”.

If you’re going to just continue spouting your opinion without supporting it with anything, don’t be surprised when you’re ignored. I’m tired of my time being wasted reading opinions without logical reasoning.