Guild Wars 2

^^^

Ignore me all you want, this thread for Warriors fellow mates, a Mesmer wont understand.

We spent 8 pages so you can you see how FH important for warrior, see you page 16.

Juba, I play multiple classes. That doesn’t make my points any more/less valid.

More important … I provide points. Logical reasons.

If you can’t provide the logical reasons, then I can’t help but assume you have none. It would have taken far less effort at this point to just give those reasons than the run-around you’re trying to give now.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sebrent.3625:

Sure … if you only read that last post and not the rest of the actual discussion that’s been taking place … and accept an anecdote as a fact to prove a point :-/

I read the discussion.
No viable build without FH. No one manage to show that FH is not mandatory to warrior be viable.
There is a lot more proofs (years of warrior builds) showing FH being a must in every viable build.

This is probably because Warrior needs fast-hand to “abuse” adrenaline gain so they can spam as many LB F1 for cleansing Ire as much as possible. They also try to abuse on-swap sigil as much as possible through fast-hand. It’s just such a good combination that Warrior don’t want to give up, otherwise they probably wouldn’t be as OP as it is now.

But honestly, fast-hand is not really mandatory in PVE contents at all. People still pick it only because there’re ferocity bound to it. If the ferocity part is removed, people will pick something else for sure in PVE.

Sebrent.3625:

Juba, I play multiple classes. That doesn’t make my points any more/less valid.

More important … I provide points. Logical reasons.

If you can’t provide the logical reasons, then I can’t help but assume you have none. It would have taken far less effort at this point to just give those reasons than the run-around you’re trying to give now.

but clearly you know nothing about warrior, Your posts in this thread is proof enough.

I will say it again and i will keep saying it.

Fast Hands + Warrior’s Sprint need to be baseline, anything else and DISC will be dominating Warrior Builds.

lets suppose FH is baseline will that be enough to drop :

• Versatile Rage
• Warrior’s Sprint
• Versatile Power
• Burst Mastery

will it ?

Can any other line have a chance against DISC ? i don’t think so , this line still needs to lighten up and there is no better trait to snatch from that list that has a bigger impact on warrior and in line with Anet description like Warrior’s Sprint.

Please clarify how my posts of that are “proof enough”. Again, an opinion without supporting it in any way. Right now it seems you just dislike that I disagree and request actual logical which you refuse to provide.

Why will anything else besides getting both FH and Warrior’s Sprint cause Discipline to dominate Warrior builds? You still haven’t given why …. yet again.

At this point, after having asked what is probably the 10th time at least in this thread … I can only assume you don’t have any logical reasoning for why you think these things. You just think them.

You’re like an underpants gnome …
Step (1): Steal underpants
Step (2): ????
Step (3): Profit

That Step (2) is the logical reasoning … you have not provided any.

Toxsa.2701:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sebrent.3625:

Sure … if you only read that last post and not the rest of the actual discussion that’s been taking place … and accept an anecdote as a fact to prove a point :-/

I read the discussion.
No viable build without FH. No one manage to show that FH is not mandatory to warrior be viable.
There is a lot more proofs (years of warrior builds) showing FH being a must in every viable build.

This is probably because Warrior needs fast-hand to “abuse” adrenaline gain so they can spam as many LB F1 for cleansing Ire as much as possible. They also try to abuse on-swap sigil as much as possible through fast-hand. It’s just such a good combination that Warrior don’t want to give up, otherwise they probably wouldn’t be as OP as it is now.

But honestly, fast-hand is not really mandatory in PVE contents at all. People still pick it only because there’re ferocity bound to it. If the ferocity part is removed, people will pick something else for sure in PVE.

That is the same thing that saying that mesmer needs DE to “abuse” clone spam so they can spam f1 for the damage / boon removal all the time they want. They also “abuse” energy sigil so they can “abuse” even more.

But DE is not mandatory in PvE…

I agree that it isn’t abuse … but, unless it was ArenaNet’s plan to make everything else weaker, it was an oversight on ArenaNet’s part.

When you can use something twice as much (i.e. +100% more) then there is a large difference in power between that and not. So this often leaves you with one of two scenarios:

• It is balanced around +0% but is OP in comparison with +100%
• It is balanced around +100% but is UP in comparison without +0%

This is how we’ve gotten to the point where Fast Hands should be made baseline (or removed) since it gives +100% weapon swap speed which is a pain in the butt to balance around (as we’ve all seen).

This is the same as gaining adrenaline via Embrace the Pain (currently merged into Cleansing Ire) … you get roughly +100% adrenaline (if not more) from it. How do you balance +0% versus +100% or more?

Shoutbow is probably the best example of a build that goes into discipline tree only for FH. It doesn’t need WS at all, and while it benefits from extra adrenaline from Versatile Rage, picking Arms tree would be much better.
But Shoutbow is a special case, it uses less adrenaline than other builds while having an extra way of generating it. It is hard to imagine a build with axe, rifle, mace, hammer or longbow that doesn’t use Burst Mastery (or at least VR).

silentnight warrior.2714:

Toxsa.2701:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sebrent.3625:

Sure … if you only read that last post and not the rest of the actual discussion that’s been taking place … and accept an anecdote as a fact to prove a point :-/

I read the discussion.
No viable build without FH. No one manage to show that FH is not mandatory to warrior be viable.
There is a lot more proofs (years of warrior builds) showing FH being a must in every viable build.

This is probably because Warrior needs fast-hand to “abuse” adrenaline gain so they can spam as many LB F1 for cleansing Ire as much as possible. They also try to abuse on-swap sigil as much as possible through fast-hand. It’s just such a good combination that Warrior don’t want to give up, otherwise they probably wouldn’t be as OP as it is now.

But honestly, fast-hand is not really mandatory in PVE contents at all. People still pick it only because there’re ferocity bound to it. If the ferocity part is removed, people will pick something else for sure in PVE.

That is the same thing that saying that mesmer needs DE to “abuse” clone spam so they can spam f1 for the damage / boon removal all the time they want. They also “abuse” energy sigil so they can “abuse” even more.

But DE is not mandatory in PvE…

Because Anet fail to create something that does good by not brainlessly spam something no-end for the most rewarding play-style. What Anet should do is increase the “active way” of Warrior getting Adrenaline (like hitting target grants more adrenaline) and nerf all the passive way (being hit, spam swapping weapon, shout, signet of rage, LB F1) of getting enormous amount of Adrenaline.

I don’t think shoutbow is brainless. If you disagree, feel free to play against someone that is a better warrior than you and see who wins. Kagamiku and I played around a bit and he’s a more solid warrior than me. If you fought both of us playing shoutbow, you’d notice a difference … so brains (i.e. skill) are involved.

The getting hit does need to either be baseline or done away with complete … for balancing purposes. Same as Fast Hands.

I think some weapons are currently balanced around absolutely needing that extra adrenaline as they are more prone to being kited so more likely to be adrenaline-starved.

I don’t see any issue with weapon swapping giving adrenaline for the same reason. That weapon swap is a conscious decision with some things involved with it. Even with Fast Hands, it is locked for 5 seconds into that weapon set.

That said, as I’ve said before, Fast Hands should be made baseline (or removed) for the sake of balance as well as either its UP without it or OP with it (or both). Same with swap-sigils and Might on Swap from Discipline.

That said, giving more adrenaline per-hit than adrenaline when-hit could be a viable solution as it would give you more reward for playing well; especially in a game where the point is to not get hit (dodge, block, interrupt, etc.).

It doesn’t matter how we get the adrenaline, the adrenaline gain traits will still have to be put somewhere (and that somewhere will probably be the discipline tree), and we will still take them as long as the builds are so adrenaline hungry.

“As long as the build are so adrenaline hungry”, so of course you’ll want to feed into what your build needs.

What you’d need is either:

• equal alternatives on how to feed it (that can’ t be combined or aren’t OP when combined)
• builds that aren’t as adrenaline hungry

Yes?

Though Warrior’s Sprint is a good trait, I don’t think that it should necesarily be made baseline. In my opinion, a slow warrior is a dead warrior, but there is more than one way a warrior can attain speed.

Examples (post patch):
-Rending Strikes (33% chance on crit for 3 sec of swiftness) + Signet of Rage
-Warhorn (near permanent upkeep when traited, alternatively can be combined with Signet of Rage)
-Speed or Traveler Runes (May not feel like as much of a stat disadvantage after they shift the stats from traits to armor)
- Signet of Rage + Pack Runes (Taking Signet Mastery with Signet of Rage can expand swiftness upkeep as well. Post patch Signet Mastery is located in Arms).

Personally, I find taking Warrior’s Sprint preferable, but there are certainly workable alternatives. Hopefully, the new specialization will add some more.

“Ease of balance” is all that changed your mind after all these posts, Sebrent?

Toxsa.2701:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Toxsa.2701:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sebrent.3625:

Sure … if you only read that last post and not the rest of the actual discussion that’s been taking place … and accept an anecdote as a fact to prove a point :-/

I read the discussion.
No viable build without FH. No one manage to show that FH is not mandatory to warrior be viable.
There is a lot more proofs (years of warrior builds) showing FH being a must in every viable build.

This is probably because Warrior needs fast-hand to “abuse” adrenaline gain so they can spam as many LB F1 for cleansing Ire as much as possible. They also try to abuse on-swap sigil as much as possible through fast-hand. It’s just such a good combination that Warrior don’t want to give up, otherwise they probably wouldn’t be as OP as it is now.

But honestly, fast-hand is not really mandatory in PVE contents at all. People still pick it only because there’re ferocity bound to it. If the ferocity part is removed, people will pick something else for sure in PVE.

That is the same thing that saying that mesmer needs DE to “abuse” clone spam so they can spam f1 for the damage / boon removal all the time they want. They also “abuse” energy sigil so they can “abuse” even more.

But DE is not mandatory in PvE…

Because Anet fail to create something that does good by not brainlessly spam something no-end for the most rewarding play-style. What Anet should do is increase the “active way” of Warrior getting Adrenaline (like hitting target grants more adrenaline) and nerf all the passive way (being hit, spam swapping weapon, shout, signet of rage, LB F1) of getting enormous amount of Adrenaline.

ANet fail with that in all classes. Some people spam with skill, others dont.
Your solution wont work because all the blinds / evades / dodges / ports this game have.
Also warrior have easy to tell animations / attacks.

@Khenzy:
Yes, that is all that changed my mind … I ended up changing my own mind … people just needed to be patient :-p

We’ll see how it goes. Apparently the next time we get a big patch we’ll be seeing the new system in-place … then we can better speak to all of this.

Aomine.5012:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Let-s-push-traits-into-Baseline/first#post5136441

Just want to see your reaction.

I think you’ve failed to understand the argument.

Aomine.5012:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Let-s-push-traits-into-Baseline/first#post5136441

Just want to see your reaction.

Absolutely ridiculous. None of those traits are mandatory for 100% of the Ranger’s builds. All of those traits are good to different kinds of builds, which is something totally different from the FH case presented here. Mandatory traits for certain builds it’s what traits (mostly grandmaster) are all about. Like Guardian’s Monk Focus. It’s idiotic to think some of them should be mandatory.

All LB rangers may take Lead the Wind, but condi rangers don’t, period.
Some rangers specs take Empathic Bond, but others take Wilderness Knowledge and are still perfectly viable.

He just totally missed the point of this thread and is deperately fishing for buffs to his main. Not like power Rangers are going to be even stronger post-patch. lol.

For example, I don’t agree with Elemental Attunement being made baseline, as being able to take Geomancer’s Defence + Stone Heart or Diamond Skin more than compensates for it. Elemental Attunement was primarily taken due to the huge protection uptime it provided.

Let’s take out FH from Warrior altogether. Now find me where you can compensate that with a similar funtionality from other trait lines. Yep, you can’t.

I wish you hadn’t shown me that link to the Ranger subforum … ugh

Aomine.5012:

Yeah I know. You guys want Fast Hand, Warrior Sprint, Cleansing Ire, and maybe Balance stance all be your baseline. Basically you warriors want everything to be baseline.

Oddly enough, rangers actually refuse those baseline changes. It kind of show us the mindset of the Top class and the Bottom class. Top class always want more, while Bottom class are satisfied with what they got. This is exactly like in real world which rich people want to be richer while poor people are satisfied with whatever they got.

Noone sane here is asking for Cleasing Ire or Warrior Sprint baseline, much less Balance Stance. I think you are also missing the point (I think making the ‘gain adrenaline when hit’ part of CI is fair though). If FH was ever made baseline and OP builds came out of it, I think all decent players are in favour of nerfing where appropiate. All we’re seeking is more build diversity. I’m all for Rangers and every other profession having that too, and if that comes with traits being made baseline, I’m all for it, but those suggestions in that thread are just kittened, why have traits anymore at that point.
For instance, shoutbow is going to be way over the top if those trait changes stay just as announced (which I really doubt).

EDIT:

Na, I think his intention is to show how ridiculous you Warriors are instead of asking for a buff.

Stop with the generalizations already. :/

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Adrenaline-when-hit-should-be-baseline

Btw gonna delete the previous posts before moderators come in to say I’m off topic :P

Sebrent.3625:

I wish you hadn’t shown me that link to the Ranger subforum … ugh

Explain, hopefully it reverted you from actually thinking this is a good idea because these changes are absolutely silly, what they’re asking for.

1.) Classes don’t have innate bonuses like this. Anything made baseline were direct changes to abilities to reduce the specific skill trait dependencies, not remove the impact of traits on the characters.
2.) The things they want baseline (warrior) are some of the best traits in the game.
3.) They could just as easily give everyone 5 second swaps or nerf Fast Hands to not be as mandatory, but no, they don’t want that, there is no give and take here.
4.) Warriors are fine and will be even more fine after the changes.
5.) Most warriors would still end up using Discipline, likely, anyways because of the other swap-traits and Burst mastery.
6.) All of this is a silly slippery slope, anything having to do with Burst skills and weapons, or anything that seems “warrior-ish” has slowly been added to the list of wishful-baselining.

Look at Necromancers, there is a LOT of stuff that affects Life Force, Death Shroud and Death Shroud skills, it doesn’t mean it have to all be baseline just because almost every Necro will take Vital Persistence and the other traits affect their “core mechanic”. Traits affect a number of things, and that’s perfectly fine.

Seriously, this thread is silly and frankly, shameful. At least your tree-defining traits are mostly minors (with the exception of Cleansing Ire). I’d kill for Vital Persistence to be a Minor rather than forcing a choice in that column, let alone baseline…

(This isn’t all just at you, Sebrent.)

lol

So almost every profession is angry at us for just having a simple discussion xD

Whats next ? nerf (forum/professions/warrior/) ?

No worries ronpierce.

I did mention before that the “ease of balancing” could just as easily be accomplished by simply removing Fast Hands and Embrace the Pain. In fact, we discussed at one time that ease of balancing could be accomplished via:

• Make them baseline and balance from there
• Remove them and balance from there
• Make the difference between having and not-having the traits much smaller than the current +0% versus +100% (or more) disparity … and balance from there.

I can’t blame you if you missed that as I didn’t repeat it as often as I’m honestly very tired of this topic now due to a dearth of any new thoughts coming into it worth discussing … though this post of yours is a nice change.

1.) I agree.

2.) I agree.

3.) I agree.

4.) I think this is likely true. Warrior has a long history of being solid in each meta and I don’t see anything that is going to make them weaker or less desirable in any other way … but we don’t know for sure how the meta will change so I can’t say that I 100% agree.

5.) I disagree. It’s possible, but there are some nice possible alternatives coming with the new system. It also depends on how the meta shifts. I disagree because I don’t think it’s as cut-in-stone.

6.) Lol. I agree.

Juba.8406:

lol

So almost every profession is angry at us for just having a simple discussion xD

Whats next ? nerf (forum/professions/warrior/) ?

Warrior is my second most played class. If a necromancer says something off the wall and blatantly OP I typically let them know that it’s out of line and why. The major difference is the Necromancer crowd tends to be slightly less combative (at least internally toward other Necromancers). You’re having a simple discussion and I’m giving you a simple statement that it would be a terrible change, and it’s very obvious to see the pro-warrior buff bias in this thread when the only alternative anyone is willing to accept is the one that baselines it for just the warrior, anything that could nerf it is instantly written off. This isn’t a simple discussion about build diversity, its a buff bait and little else.

ronpierce.2760:

Juba.8406:

lol

So almost every profession is angry at us for just having a simple discussion xD

Whats next ? nerf (forum/professions/warrior/) ?

Warrior is my second most played class. If a necromancer says something off the wall and blatantly OP I typically let them know that it’s out of line and why. The major difference is the Necromancer crowd tends to be slightly less combative (at least internally toward other Necromancers). You’re having a simple discussion and I’m giving you a simple statement that it would be a terrible change, and it’s very obvious to see the pro-warrior buff bias in this thread when the only alternative anyone is willing to accept is the one that baselines it for just the warrior, anything that could nerf it is instantly written off. This isn’t a simple discussion about build diversity, its a buff bait and little else.

• You said earlier that Warrior is your PvE main.

I don’t have anything against PvE, but i think anything can work there meta or not, and PvE is not an argument at least for this thread, i think its obvious we discussing FH+WS from a PvP/WvW perspective and its more obvious that those who plays and mains warrior in all 3 segments of the game should get the most valued opinions.

Every warrior here agrees on FH as baseline but we still split upon making WS baseline.

• You said earlier that you can prove that FH is not required.

Yet you failed to deliver that prove of any kind, even PvE has no meta builds without FH.

• Necromancer is lacking something ?

Then why you dont go to your sub and demand/discuss that there ? i don’t see why you or any other profession poster here hating on us for giving feedback that was asked by Anet in the 1st place ?

• “This isn’t a simple discussion about build diversity, its a buff bait and little else”

Well believe what you want sir, for all i care.

We don’t want Discipline line to be a “Must Have” line, currently we spend a basic of 7 trait points just to get Cleansing Ire + Fast Hands before we check any other traits.

Thats 50% of our trait points, with next changes we will spend 66% to get these traits, if you don’t see we are in a huge problem then i don’t know what to say to you.

@Juba:
While I don’t agree with ronpierce’s latest post about it just being “buff bait” … I can see how he got there due to some posters, such as yourself Juba, given how you simply keep asking for it without providing reasons why it actually needs to be baselined.

If you truly just wanted more build diversity, you should be fine with FH baselined or the Warrior balanced around FH being removed completely as an option … both would accomplish build diversity.

Everyone who says “you can use anything in PvE” is ignoring that that same logic can be used in PvP. Yes, you can use anything anywhere, but you’ll get a much better performance if you use the more optimal build for the game mode you’re playing in … regardless of whether it is PvE, sPvP, or WvW. This is where there is a meta for all game modes.

Honestly, Juba, if you had been the only one discussing this, this thread would have died a long time ago as people get tired of seeing “because I said so”. It is why I feel tired whenever I just see your name in this thread as you’re conditioning me to just expect a lack of facts/logic/reasoning to support what you say … which sucks because I have actually seen you use them in a small number of other threads.

Khenzy.9348:

Aomine.5012:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Let-s-push-traits-into-Baseline/first#post5136441

Just want to see your reaction.

Absolutely ridiculous. None of those traits are mandatory for 100% of the Ranger’s builds. All of those traits are good to different kinds of builds, which is something totally different from the FH case presented here. Mandatory traits for certain builds it’s what traits (mostly grandmaster) are all about. Like Guardian’s Monk Focus. It’s idiotic to think some of them should be mandatory.

All LB rangers may take Lead the Wind, but condi rangers don’t, period.
Some rangers specs take Empathic Bond, but others take Wilderness Knowledge and are still perfectly viable.

He just totally missed the point of this thread and is deperately fishing for buffs to his main. Not like power Rangers are going to be even stronger post-patch. lol.

For example, I don’t agree with Elemental Attunement being made baseline, as being able to take Geomancer’s Defence + Stone Heart or Diamond Skin more than compensates for it. Elemental Attunement was primarily taken due to the huge protection uptime it provided.

Let’s take out FH from Warrior altogether. Now find me where you can compensate that with a similar funtionality from other trait lines. Yep, you can’t.

So only Warriors are allowed to have nice thing
<- Cry in tears and move away from you double standard meanies.

ronpierce.2760:

You’re having a simple discussion and I’m giving you a simple statement that it would be a terrible change, and it’s very obvious to see the pro-warrior buff bias in this thread when the only alternative anyone is willing to accept is the one that baselines it for just the warrior, anything that could nerf it is instantly written off. This isn’t a simple discussion about build diversity, its a buff bait and little else.

I wasn’t particularly successful with several pages ago, but allow me to walk you through it:

1. The issue is build diversity
2. Practically all warrior builds run FH, from direct damage, dps, tank, nascar, whatever
3. This limits diversity, especially so when HoT drops and all warriors run 1/3 Discipline
4. Making FH baseline would lead to fewer warriors traiting Discipline
5. Removing FH would lead to fewer warriors traiting Discipline
6. Warriors are not overpowered now, even though all warriors run FH
7. The difference between post-HoT warriors with FH baseline and what’s currently scheduled is one additional minor trait and fewer warriors traiting Discipline (the goal). FH is on every warrior either way.
8. Everyone agrees FH is a powerful trait. If all warriors run FH now and they aren’t OP, then it follows that making FH baseline will not make warriors OP
9. It also follows that removing FH will mean warriors will be less powerful and possibly underpowered relative to other classes
10. Removing FH would therefore require a broader set of changes to make warriors more powerful and/or other classes less powerful to maintain the balance that currently exists, whereas making it baseline would not.

To your proposal that all classes get it:

1. Non warriors currently have 10s weapon swaps (excluding engis and eles)
2. Warriors with FH (all of them) are not currently OP relative to other classes
3. FH is a powerful trait
4. Giving all non-warrior classes FH baseline represents a significant power creep, except for engis who already have instant swap via kits (or no swap, if no kit)
5. With this power creep, all non-warrior classes would have to be made less powerful (excluding engi) and/or warriors (and engis) more powerful in order to restore the balance that currently exists.

Just nitpicking … nothing I really disagree with too much.

Only thing there Choppy is with your logic in 8 as it ignores that there are tradeoffs made for Warrior to currently get FH.

It doesn’t mean that I think warrior would be OP with FH, but, as we previously discussed (to death), that is gaining something which is technically “power creep” … the question is “how much power creep”.

I don’t think the effort to balance around baselined FH versus removing it altogether is as big a difference as I assume you do from your post, but I do think you’re correct that it would likely take less to balance around just making FH baseline it than it would to balance around removing FH as an option … again, though, “how much of a difference”.

I already identified the cost/benefit in point 7. Making FH baseline would mean:

1. Warriors get one additional minor trait, whether on the Discipline line (the slot currently occupied by FH) or on another trait line, and,

2. Fewer warriors would be running the Discipline line, which is the goal

Is one additional minor trait THAT much of a power creep? Or are we now saying Discipline is a weak trait line that offsets the benefit warriors get from FH when they trait it?

Or can people finally acknowledge that focusing on how powerful a trait FH is, and thinking of it as some sort of power-creeping gift to warriors (who all currently run it anyway), is completely wrong headed?

1) Fast hands baseline…….yes
2) Warrior Sprint baseline……..no

war weapon swapping is great difference for that class. but free movement speed is a no Warrior Sprint would be to much of a buff for wars.

FH baseline means we get another minor trait in Discipline. This can be anything really, but, as it is a Master minor trait it is likely to be alright. So there would definitely be a flat increase in power.

But that is just all we would get, really. I mean, are we honestly stating here that if warriors could get FH baseline and thus invest in 3 traitlines that are not Discipline that they would become OP instantly?

Oh, how the warrior design would be proven to fail epicly if this were true.

So let’s try something else. Instead of asking for a build that is viable without FH (which nobody has yet provided), let’s ask for a build that would be OP with FH baseline, without traiting Discipline.

Something a lot of people here are forgetting is that Discipline is the best traitline for warrior alongside Defense. Yet Defense only provides just that, defense. So a warrior like Vaanss for example just ignores the traitline entirely to go full DPS, which is a fine trade-off in my book.

Discipline, though, is literally included in anything that’s worth using on warrior.

tl;dr: give me a build that’s OP with FH baseline, without Discipline.

Cygnus.6903:

FH baseline means we get another minor trait in Discipline. This can be anything really, but, as it is a Master minor trait it is likely to be alright. So there would definitely be a flat increase in power.

But that is just all we would get, really. I mean, are we honestly stating here that if warriors could get FH baseline and thus invest in 3 traitlines that are not Discipline that they would become OP instantly?

Oh, how the warrior design would be proven to fail epicly if this were true.

So let’s try something else. Instead of asking for a build that is viable without FH (which nobody has yet provided), let’s ask for a build that would be OP with FH baseline, without traiting Discipline.

Something a lot of people here are forgetting is that Discipline is the best traitline for warrior alongside Defense. Yet Defense only provides just that, defense. So a warrior like Vaanss for example just ignores the traitline entirely to go full DPS, which is a fine trade-off in my book.

Discipline, though, is literally included in anything that’s worth using on warrior.

tl;dr: give me a build that’s OP with FH baseline, without Discipline.

I can’t really prove it, as there are details to be seen, obviously. But 06660 after the trait changes would certainly be a powerful set up with shouts, and maybe even stances as either ss+lb or s wh +lb as a condition build which ~mostly uses Dicsc for its fast hands. It’d be very similar to shoutbow today only much more damage potential.

Just one option to consider. Plus we have no idea what the new trait line is so we could revisit that question down the road. Good question.

How about 3 weapons sets to swap to so it can go along with FH? I am pretty sure that is a well reasonable buff to the agile weapon master class!

ronpierce.2760:

I can’t really prove it, as there are details to be seen, obviously. But 06660 after the trait changes would certainly be a powerful set up with shouts, and maybe even stances as either ss+lb or s wh +lb as a condition build which ~mostly uses Dicsc for its fast hands. It’d be very similar to shoutbow today only much more damage potential.

Just one option to consider. Plus we have no idea what the new trait line is so we could revisit that question down the road. Good question.

Well, that sounds good, but it doesn’t sound stronger then a version of it incorporating Discipline.

Condition builds will be crazy after the patch hits either way.

Cygnus.6903:

ronpierce.2760:

I can’t really prove it, as there are details to be seen, obviously. But 06660 after the trait changes would certainly be a powerful set up with shouts, and maybe even stances as either ss+lb or s wh +lb as a condition build which ~mostly uses Dicsc for its fast hands. It’d be very similar to shoutbow today only much more damage potential.

Just one option to consider. Plus we have no idea what the new trait line is so we could revisit that question down the road. Good question.

Well, that sounds good, but it doesn’t sound stronger then a version of it incorporating Discipline.

Condition builds will be crazy after the patch hits either way.

Using Disc means a ridiculous loss in damage (arms) or no cleansing ire or no shout healing. You definitely don’t gain in the same way as having FH baseline, which also opens up for 4 sigils which is a large part of what makes Fast Hands so crazy outside of just better efficiency. And the new arms line is pretty solid. The sword trait and GM minor alone would be huge dps boosts from the standard shoutbow people run now without having to lose Cleansing ire nor FH.

ronpierce.2760:

Using Disc means a ridiculous loss in damage (arms) or no cleansing ire or no shout healing. You definitely don’t gain in the same way as having FH baseline, which also opens up for 4 sigils which is a large part of what makes Fast Hands so crazy outside of just better efficiency. And the new arms line is pretty solid. The sword trait and GM minor alone would be huge dps boosts from the standard shoutbow people run now without having to lose Cleansing ire nor FH.

Are you saying Discipline is otherwise an otherwise weak trait line? You’d pretty much have to be saying that if you want to claim warriors would become much more powerful if they didn’t need to take it to get FH.

Also, how does FH give warriors an advantage with sigils? Swap sigils are on 9s cooldowns.

I believe this is the best thread on these forums to pull in all baddies asking for a endless amount of buffs till they dont start killing people just by looking at the screen.

Every class have mandatory lines, thats how it is, how it was and how it be. It wont go away just bc you dont know how to play. Its also funny when people looking at “top” yet all they does is playing in yolo hotjoin. Some arguments like warrior rely on speed from class description so they need to have war sprint mandatory is really a good and sad joke at same time.

You dont want to run war sprint? Put traveler runes on and stop moaning. Want to run something else than discipline? Sorry its time to drop fast hands and play like every other class with 10cd swap. Ofc you cannot imagine playing without fast hands cus youre bad. Mad cus bad after all. Thats my first and last post here as i dont want to argue and discuss with baddies.

To sum it up..be happy that you have fast hands to begin with, stop being greedy.

Choppy.4183:

ronpierce.2760:

Using Disc means a ridiculous loss in damage (arms) or no cleansing ire or no shout healing. You definitely don’t gain in the same way as having FH baseline, which also opens up for 4 sigils which is a large part of what makes Fast Hands so crazy outside of just better efficiency. And the new arms line is pretty solid. The sword trait and GM minor alone would be huge dps boosts from the standard shoutbow people run now without having to lose Cleansing ire nor FH.

Are you saying Discipline is otherwise an otherwise weak trait line? You’d pretty much have to be saying that if you want to claim warriors would become much more powerful if they didn’t need to take it to get FH.

Also, how does FH give warriors an advantage with sigils? Swap sigils are on 9s cooldowns.

I’m not saying it’s weak, but I do feel it’s more beneficial for power builds. Arms is a stronger alternative to disc outside of fast hands of you wanted a shout condition hybrid. If you could go arms and retain FH it would be no contest and a huge power boost.

And honestly, it’s disappointing people want FH baseline so much and don’t understand how it doubles sigils… If you run 4 unique swap sigils those cooldowns are all used efficiently, it doubles your effective sigils.

First set has Doom and Geomancy. Second has Battle and Intelligence.
Swap to the first set, it triggers. 5 seconds later swap to the second set, and trigger those. After the first swap cd and the second your first set of sigils are ready again. So you have two cycles of 10 second cooldown sigils going at once.

This doesn’t work for Ele and Engineer because they only have one set of sigils do swap speed isn’t taking advantage of anything. And other classes have to wait a full 10 seconds to swap, so naturally their primary set would go off cooldown when they switch again, gaining nothing unique for diversifying their sigils.

Being able to run Doom and Geomancy and Intell+other on a LB Sword Warhorn is part of what makes them so effective. They get great condition boosts from the longbow swap and 100% crit on their Final Thrust from intilligence. This is often paired with sigil of battle to add to that burst.

On the sigils, FH allows the second set to proc 5s sooner once during the whole of combat. That’s not a powerful advantage, it’s a footnote.

Seems to me condi hybrids are already borked with the newly announced Condi changes combined with the need to get all traits from gear now (plus the impending changes to cele). I haven’t thought about it a lot, tbh, but I don’t think it’d be an issue.

Assuming it would, does funneling all warrior builds to trait 1/3 discipline to balance the potential for power creep of one type of build structure sound sensible to you? Don’t you think adjusting specific traits or weapon effects specific to that build type would be a better way to balance than pushing them into an otherwise suboptimal trait line for the sake of one minor trait?

If your last comment captures your concern, it seems like there’s way more direct ways to solves your problem with less collateral damage.

Choppy.4183:

On the sigils, FH allows the second set to proc 5s sooner once during the whole of combat. That’s not a powerful advantage, it’s a footnote.

Without FH, to make full use of one on swap sigil, you need to have it in both weapon sets. With FH you can have it on only one weapon and still proc it every 10 sec.

Anyway, as Choppy said, it would make more sense to make adjustments to things that are specific to some build, if that build is too strong, than force every build to pick discipline line just because FH is there, even if that trait line doesn’t fit the theme of the build.

Gotcha. My bad.

— The following suggestions go by the Specialization AMA trait reveal —

1) CI and Embrace the Pain split once more, Embrace the Pain goes Baseline

When you hit things, you get adrenaline, when you get hit by things you get adrenaline. That sounds about right, and given the previous utter decimation of Adrenaline out of combat by the last time it was touched, having something like this will be an absolutely nice buff that doesn’t really extend too far. From an aesthetic stand-point, someone punches you and you should feel something build up. From a balancing stand-point, it takes away a part of CI that made it so kitten appealing.

Certainly, the condition clear is all too real on it, but that’s only due to the fact that other lines don’t have that kind of condition clear with Mending being well, so-so.

That being said…

2) Fast Hands becomes Grandmaster Major, Brawler’s Recovery becomes Master Minor, Merciless Hammer becomes Master Major.

Yep, Fast Hands and Burst Mastery are now a choice between the two. Honestly, this one was tough to sort out but ultimately something has to go. At least with this sort of change Merciless Hammer gets a nice bump from what the devs came up with.

— End of suggestions —

The thing is, with all the changes coming out really soon the meta and professions will be in a flux for months. However, what has me worried about the Warrior profession is that although there will be a specialization coming out and quite a few merged traits…

…Our core specializations aren’t giving us any real new tricks. Save the ‘yet to be tested’ physical skills, Warriors are looking to be very similar to how we work now once the trait changes go through, and that’s BAD. We are already predictable and our combos and capabilities are known almost instinctively at this point, so if we stay the same while every other profession grows further…

I disagree with where you landed with FH because it doesn’t deal with the more pressing build diversity issue, but your EtP fix at least reduces the dependency on Defense which does helps a bit.

I have high hopes for the physical skills, personally. They’ve made them into a solid alternative to shouts and stances, and should provide a viable path to skip both Healing Signet and Cleanisng Ire too (especially if EtP actually dies go baseline). Hell, even Rampage may see more use outside of PvP.

And the small changes to Signet Mastery may even give us another good utility choice.

True, they didn’t change much about how warrior works and wet still a highly telegraphed class, but the payoff if you can work within that seems in balance when compared to less obvious classes.

I actually think Anet’s done a very good job overall with their changes. Just a couple of tweaks would be great to help the diversity problem.

@Choppy:
Sorry, this to two your post earlier on this page (#9) … been away … 3rd child was born … was rather busy (still am).

Fast Hands baseline is a power creep in that:

• A build that already took Discipline now gets Fast Hands and whatever new trait replaces it as a minor trait in Discipline
• A build that doesn’t take Discipline is still gaining Fast Hands

It is a power creep. How much is debatable.

This is why when I’ve discussed choices for the sake of “ease of balancing”, I’ve mentioned the change being made followed by additional balancing around it as I think some may be warranted whether you made it baseline or simply removed from the game.

Sebrent.3625:

@Choppy:
Sorry, this to two your post earlier on this page (#9) … been away … 3rd child was born … was rather busy (still am).

Fast Hands baseline is a power creep in that:

• A build that already took Discipline now gets Fast Hands and whatever new trait replaces it as a minor trait in Discipline
• A build that doesn’t take Discipline is still gaining Fast Hands

It is a power creep. How much is debatable.

This is why when I’ve discussed choices for the sake of “ease of balancing”, I’ve mentioned the change being made followed by additional balancing around it as I think some may be warranted whether you made it baseline or simply removed from the game.

Congrats. Yes, I know it’s technically a power creep, but a very minor one that’s easily mitigated if necessary.

Regarding the extra minor trait, just be mindful of what you replace it with. For example, you could pull the might off of Versatile Power and put it in place of FH. That would be a net zero change as far as an extra minor trait goes if still traiting discipline.

Regarding being free to choose other trait lines instead of everyone running discipline, that’s exactly the goal and hardly seems like a power creep anyone should be concerned about. Frankly, the idea that class balance is achieved by railroading people into otherwise poor trait choices seems like an indefensible point of view.

Discipline would still be a good trait line if FH was made baseline, and an optimal choice for several different build types. But it wouldn’t be compulsory like it is when FH is tied to it, and so more warrior diversity could be achieved by making it baseline without any appreciable class power creep in relation to other classes.

Excessive power creep that resulted for specific builds would be better addressed through specific build balance fixes.

Choppy.4183:

I disagree with where you landed with FH because it doesn’t deal with the more pressing build diversity issue, but your EtP fix at least reduces the dependency on Defense which does helps a bit.

I have high hopes for the physical skills, personally. They’ve made them into a solid alternative to shouts and stances, and should provide a viable path to skip both Healing Signet and Cleanisng Ire too (especially if EtP actually dies go baseline). Hell, even Rampage may see more use outside of PvP.

And the small changes to Signet Mastery may even give us another good utility choice.

True, they didn’t change much about how warrior works and wet still a highly telegraphed class, but the payoff if you can work within that seems in balance when compared to less obvious classes.

I actually think Anet’s done a very good job overall with their changes. Just a couple of tweaks would be great to help the diversity problem.

More or less, I am thinking about how massively expanded other professions (Mesmers, Thieves, Elementalists) gained with their revamped core lines compared to us and in some regard, Necromancers and Engineers (Those poor souls).

With concern to build diversity, my suggestion for Disc was simply a direct nerf to the line, in anticipation that somewhere down the road Strength and Arms might see some sort of benefit that would override the competing FH or Burst Mastery.

The more I reflect upon it, with 3 full trait lines I think it would be extremely unlikely to see any viable warrior build not run Disc (Even if there was an Rabid-based build where Arms, Defense, and Tactics would seem like the right choice, I think overall the build being created there would give up Arms or Tactics for Disc).

BUT, its all up in the air, as we aren’t even aware of what sort of Specialization is in store for our profession. I am extremely curious about what they come up with…

Sykper.6583:

More or less, I am thinking about how massively expanded other professions (Mesmers, Thieves, Elementalists) gained with their revamped core lines compared to us and in some regard, Necromancers and Engineers (Those poor souls).

With concern to build diversity, my suggestion for Disc was simply a direct nerf to the line, in anticipation that somewhere down the road Strength and Arms might see some sort of benefit that would override the competing FH or Burst Mastery.

The more I reflect upon it, with 3 full trait lines I think it would be extremely unlikely to see any viable warrior build not run Disc (Even if there was an Rabid-based build where Arms, Defense, and Tactics would seem like the right choice, I think overall the build being created there would give up Arms or Tactics for Disc).

BUT, its all up in the air, as we aren’t even aware of what sort of Specialization is in store for our profession. I am extremely curious about what they come up with…

Tbh, I don’t think looking at what other classes are getting is a good approach. All I’m personally interested in is:

1. All classes are fun to play (and play against)
2. On the whole, all classes are balanced against each other with viable counter builds/play against any build other classes can bring to bear (i.e. no hard class counters, only build counters)

It doesn’t much matter to me (as a warrior) if other classes received lots of nice things as long as it brings them closer to the above two goals. Unless it gives them some sort of crazy class advantage over others, then I don’t think any changes to other classes are required.

The FH proposal is about the first goal. Being locked into Discipline and, to a lesser extent Defense, unnecessarily makes warriors less diverse, which is less fun to play and less fun to play against. It seems a relatively trivial thing to fix that without any appreciable power creep, meaning it doesn’t threaten the second goal.

That Mesmers, for example, got 6 traits baselined seems irrelevant to me from a balance perspective because they look like very good changes, imo. The Chronomancer line will probably require some balance tweaks, but we’ll have to see.

Those tweaks shouldn’t constrain the entire class, just like the fear of Shoutbows that don’t have to take Discipline (if FH were baselined) shouldn’t be the justification for all warriors having to take Discipline.

skowcia.8257:

Every class have mandatory lines, thats how it is, how it was and how it be.

No class has a trait as mandatory on every single build as much as Fast Hands is to warrior.

And you can play another 5k hours, I bet you still won’t understand why.