Guild Wars 2

Cygnus.6903:

skowcia.8257:

Every class have mandatory lines, thats how it is, how it was and how it be.

No class has a trait as mandatory on every single build as much as Fast Hands is to warrior.

And you can play another 5k hours, I bet you still won’t understand why.

To be fair, that’s a double edged blade. Yeah, it’s hard to build without it. But one could also argue no one has a trait as impactful to any build they could possibly make at any given time. So while it might be too mandatory and counter argument could very well be that the trait itself (not the class) is far too powerful.

ronpierce.2760:

Cygnus.6903:

skowcia.8257:

Every class have mandatory lines, thats how it is, how it was and how it be.

No class has a trait as mandatory on every single build as much as Fast Hands is to warrior.

And you can play another 5k hours, I bet you still won’t understand why.

To be fair, that’s a double edged blade. Yeah, it’s hard to build without it. But one could also argue no one has a trait as impactful to any build they could possibly make at any given time. So while it might be too mandatory and counter argument could very well be that the trait itself (not the class) is far too powerful.

while you can say that this trait is far too powerful it doesn’t disapprove anything, because every warrior take this trait to be Part of the balance. without it warrior can not even be part of this game and should probably be deleted, its like someone plays settler in a speed run.. its just….. you know..

To be fair, that’s a double edged blade. Yeah, it’s hard to build without it. But one could also argue no one has a trait as impactful to any build they could possibly make at any given time. So while it might be too mandatory and counter argument could very well be that the trait itself (not the class) is far too powerful.

Yes, the trait is powerful. To compensate for that everything else has to be weaker.
As stated before removing the trait (or nerfing it) is also a solution, but then warrior will need to be buffed in other areas, which would be much more work than making it baseline (and more opportunities to screw up the balance).

lighter.2708:

ronpierce.2760:

Cygnus.6903:

skowcia.8257:

Every class have mandatory lines, thats how it is, how it was and how it be.

No class has a trait as mandatory on every single build as much as Fast Hands is to warrior.

And you can play another 5k hours, I bet you still won’t understand why.

To be fair, that’s a double edged blade. Yeah, it’s hard to build without it. But one could also argue no one has a trait as impactful to any build they could possibly make at any given time. So while it might be too mandatory and counter argument could very well be that the trait itself (not the class) is far too powerful.

while you can say that this trait is far too powerful it doesn’t disapprove anything, because every warrior take this trait to be Part of the balance. without it warrior can not even be part of this game and should probably be deleted, its like someone plays settler in a speed run.. its just….. you know..

Well… It’s actually not that bad at all, as you could dps in axe and/or sword decently effectively for an extended period of time, it’s just not optimal. But that’s just the thing, nothing else has room to be optimal When one this is OP.

The main reason I either want everyone to have it, no one, or leave it as a Discipline trait is much more than the swap value, but it completely changes the value and power of sigils for warrior.

ronpierce.2760:

Well… It’s actually not that bad at all, as you could dps in axe and/or sword decently effectively for an extended period of time, it’s just not optimal. But that’s just the thing, nothing else has room to be optimal When one this is OP.

The main reason I either want everyone to have it, no one, or leave it as a Discipline trait is much more than the swap value, but it completely changes the value and power of sigils for warrior.

Your argument doesn’t make any sense to me:

1. Can you provide a viable build that doesn’t trait FH? One that keeps pace with non warriors, can win fights, etc?
2. All warriors already run FH, so making it baseline changes nothing with respect to warriors and sigils
3. No one has denied that FH is a powerful trait, but if all warriors run it and warriors aren’t OP now, then what’s the issue?

Choppy.4183:

ronpierce.2760:

Well… It’s actually not that bad at all, as you could dps in axe and/or sword decently effectively for an extended period of time, it’s just not optimal. But that’s just the thing, nothing else has room to be optimal When one this is OP.

The main reason I either want everyone to have it, no one, or leave it as a Discipline trait is much more than the swap value, but it completely changes the value and power of sigils for warrior.

Your argument doesn’t make any sense to me:

1. Can you provide a viable build that doesn’t trait FH? One that keeps pace with non warriors, can win fights, etc?
2. All warriors already run FH, so making it baseline changes nothing with respect to warriors and sigils
3. No one has denied that FH is a powerful trait, but if all warriors run it and warriors aren’t OP now, then what’s the issue?

The EA warroir build 6 4 0 4 0 does not run fast hands.

Felix Harper.9572:

The EA warroir build 6 4 0 4 0 does not run fast hands.

So… one type of build setup that’s specifically for pve? Where balance between classes doesn’t matter because the goal is whatever party comp will lead to the fastest clears of npcs?

I feel like that more or less makes the point right there.

Are you seriously going to ask him for one build and then when he gives it give him flak for doing just that?!

PvE comps are based on what each individual class brings so saying that PvE speedruns are based on comps as a way to make the build “not count” is just silly.

I’m sorry, but there is no reason FH is mandatory. It could go away and Warrior be balanced around Fast Hands never existing again.

None of you ever gave a reason worth two fecal matter why FH was mandatory other than “it’s more powerful”. Being “more powerful” is not a reason something is “needed”. Does it hurt build diversity? Yes. Does that make it required? Heck no. As pointed out before, there could be a button that is an auto-win. It would not be “more powerful”. It would never be “required”. Same principle, just on an exaggerated scale because despite this point being made it seems many of you never understood the difference.

Examples of “required” things:

• Damaging conditions when you are taking condition damage … otherwise that condition damage does nothing
• A Ranger pet when you have mechanics that require a Ranger pet in order to actually function
• Mesmer illusions because without them you don’t even have a class mechanic (nor 2+ skills on every weaponset)

Without Fast Hands … a Warrior still bloody works. Without those other things … they don’t work. It’s very simple.

The only reason I agreed to it being a good idea to baseline it was for the sake of ease of balance in the future because of how Fast Hands effectively doubles the usage of so many different things that it creates a scenario that looks quite difficult to balance moving forward.

This issue could just as well be fixed by completely removing Fast Hands. Since all of you have been advocating Fast Hands baseline to promote build diversity, you should be fine with this as well as it would promote build diversity … but I imagine we’ll now see several posts of why this just would not work … and I’m just going to laugh to myself as it will just point out the hypocrisy of “make it baseline so we have build diversity” when the build diversity obviously isn’t the goal … getting Fast Hands baseline is.

./sigh … disappointed in several people on here and too darn tired to be nicer.

I’m not giving him flak at all, I’m saying trait balance between classes has virtually no role in pve. Not because pve is somehow inferior to the other game modes, but because classes aren’t in direct competition with each other there except for a spot in a party.

If warrior banners brought 1000 to each attribute for a party, but warriors couldn’t attack and had zero armor, they’d be completely underpowered as a class and yet everyone would want them in a dungeon party. Similarly, that EA build is weak in any sort of competitive arena, where class balance matters. It has a role in pve because class balance has no role there.

If all we have for a build type that doesn’t use FH is one used in pve (and not even the dominant), then what more evidence do we need that FH is mandatory for warriors?

Again, it’s not simply a great trait that people want if:

1. All warriors run it where class balance is relevant, and
2. Warriors aren’t overpowered when it’s traited

I already said removing FH would support build diversity, but the evidence all points to warriors being underpowered without it. Ergo, there’d be much more work ahead to balance the classes if FH was removed from warriors. Not so with making it baseline.

Felix Harper.9572:

Choppy.4183:

ronpierce.2760:

Well… It’s actually not that bad at all, as you could dps in axe and/or sword decently effectively for an extended period of time, it’s just not optimal. But that’s just the thing, nothing else has room to be optimal When one this is OP.

The main reason I either want everyone to have it, no one, or leave it as a Discipline trait is much more than the swap value, but it completely changes the value and power of sigils for warrior.

Your argument doesn’t make any sense to me:

1. Can you provide a viable build that doesn’t trait FH? One that keeps pace with non warriors, can win fights, etc?
2. All warriors already run FH, so making it baseline changes nothing with respect to warriors and sigils
3. No one has denied that FH is a powerful trait, but if all warriors run it and warriors aren’t OP now, then what’s the issue?

The EA warroir build 6 4 0 4 0 does not run fast hands.

Even in PvE that build is not Meta, the real question can it work in PvP ? hell it wont work even in WvW, Just like a warrior who brings no longbow to a pvp match.

Nothing against you poster, but if people in this thread use PvE as an argument you are pathetic.

Felix Harper.9572:

Choppy.4183:

ronpierce.2760:

Well… It’s actually not that bad at all, as you could dps in axe and/or sword decently effectively for an extended period of time, it’s just not optimal. But that’s just the thing, nothing else has room to be optimal When one this is OP.

The main reason I either want everyone to have it, no one, or leave it as a Discipline trait is much more than the swap value, but it completely changes the value and power of sigils for warrior.

Your argument doesn’t make any sense to me:

1. Can you provide a viable build that doesn’t trait FH? One that keeps pace with non warriors, can win fights, etc?
2. All warriors already run FH, so making it baseline changes nothing with respect to warriors and sigils
3. No one has denied that FH is a powerful trait, but if all warriors run it and warriors aren’t OP now, then what’s the issue?

The EA warroir build 6 4 0 4 0 does not run fast hands.

Where you use that build?

Juba.8406:

Felix Harper.9572:

The EA warroir build 6 4 0 4 0 does not run fast hands.

Nothing against you poster, but if people in this thread use PvE as an argument you are pathetic.

In fairness, Juba, I think Felix was just being helpful by identifying a build that doesn’t use FH. I’d put the challenge to ronpierce and, afaik, Felix hasn’t made any sort of argument for or against.

That it’s the best/only example that exists and doesn’t meet the, “one that keeps pace with non warriors, can win fights, etc” criteria (because it’s a pve (dungeon) build) only demonstrates that FH is necessary for warrior class balance as things stand.

I play 43332 in pve I feel im strong its viable I kill stuuf quick

lighter.2708:

I play 43332 in pve I feel im strong its viable I kill stuuf quick

This whole thing is turning into “mandatory for pvp”, which is a weak argument because the same arguments could be made for Arcana, Soul Reaping, etc. That’s not that big of a deal. Nature Magic and Wilderness Survival could feel just as necessary to have some sort of Condi removal because otherwise pvp is suicide. Common issue to find certain attributed more suited for pvp. Not a reason to be handed everything for free.

ronpierce.2760:

lighter.2708:

I play 43332 in pve I feel im strong its viable I kill stuuf quick

This whole thing is turning into “mandatory for pvp”, which is a weak argument because the same arguments could be made for Arcana, Soul Reaping, etc. That’s not that big of a deal. Nature Magic and Wilderness Survival could feel just as necessary to have some sort of Condi removal because otherwise pvp is suicide. Common issue to find certain attributed more suited for pvp. Not a reason to be handed everything for free.

except the fact that its not “mandatory for pvp”, people often mistake on this, but its actually “mandaTory for game”, no actual competitive build in any area of the game does not require fast hands, any build in any area of the game without fadst hand would be like playing pvp without cleansing ire

evasive Arcana is not mandatory either, main fresh air build is 06044, most PVe build dont have it at all, sure, if you really want to argue that its mandatory “in pvp”, I dont care, I would say its about mandatory as cleansing ire.

I understand perfectly what you are saying, but you fail to realize that every single example you gave are pvp mandatory ( non of the example are actually really pvp mandayory either, but we will just say they are) they are just as mandatory as cleansing ire, no more no less.
while fast hand its mandatory for the class itself in order to be competitive in all areas of the game, not just PvP alone

lighter.2708:

I play 43332 in pve I feel im strong its viable I kill stuuf quick

Its true. Every build in every class works on PvE. Warrior is no exception. But to be optimal with one build or in this case to be desired in dungeons thats another story.

Where people use the EA warrior build 6 4 0 4 0 that does not run fast hands?

ronpierce.2760:

lighter.2708:

I play 43332 in pve I feel im strong its viable I kill stuuf quick

This whole thing is turning into “mandatory for pvp”, which is a weak argument because the same arguments could be made for Arcana, Soul Reaping, etc. That’s not that big of a deal. Nature Magic and Wilderness Survival could feel just as necessary to have some sort of Condi removal because otherwise pvp is suicide. Common issue to find certain attributed more suited for pvp. Not a reason to be handed everything for free.

Except you typically have several options for condi removal. Even though there may be a more optimal path with respect to handling condis, that’s a function of the amount of condi pressure you’re facing in your particular matchups.

These different paths are why you see different builds handling condis in their own way. Not so with FH, where all builds trait it, except in pve where balance between classes doesn’t matter and, even there, most still do.

But, again, you can look at it the other way too. If all the warriors in these competitive places are traiting it, the argument against making it baseline is empty. It wouldn’t do anything to pve (obviously), and it wouldn’t do much to pvp and wvw either except promote build diversity with little (easily mitigated) power creep if any at all.

If you are complaining about:

1.) Sigil advantage

Then you are simply not a good player because, while Sigil advantage gives Warrior actual instant cast mechanics, you can still react to it and cleanse it (Hydro/Geo/Doom). Most of the people who are complaining about baseline fast hands probably have absolutely no reaction time and has a skill level of a new player who should NOT be having an opinion.

2.) Fire/air + Energy no discipline

Warrior has ZERO instant cast skills for fire/air to be that much of a problem anyways. They don’t have instant cast gap closers either. Warrior also does not have any built in evades other than GS. Now name me a GS build that will be op without discipline please. GS will still probably use discipline anyways and if a Warrior is using it’s movement skills to disengage then you win the fight because GS cannot bait dodges for jack without whirlwind and rush anyways.

3.) Intelligence

You have BAD REACTION TIME AND YOU NEED TO LEARN TO PLAY. It’s just that simple.

4.) Unsuspecting Foe

Again, you have bad reaction time and should not have an opinion. Okay, lets say Warrior uses Soldiers Amulet though? Now he depends on landing CC even more than just counting dodges and landing just damage by itself. Learn to spam blinds and wait out zerker stance? Play Guardian, stab your team, and call it skill? Game is about hard counters anyways.

TL;DR baseline fast hands will NEVER be broken because Warrior has no instant cast mechanics other than Fear Me (in which case Shoutbow itself will need a nerf) and built-in easy mode evades. And most of all? They can NEVER attack while evading or spamming blinds or eat through your evade frames. Warrior will still be BALANCED even with fast hands baseline. The people saying other-wise simply has bad reaction time and does not know how to count dodges. THAT SIMPLE.

P.S My opinion will not change unless the Elite Spec is broken op relative to the power creep that will happen.

When did the Fast Hands discussion become about Warrior’s access to instant cast abilities?

As far as “reacting to” … there are two ways to react to something:

• Pre-emptively … so I dodge an eviscerate, a shatter, etc. so it doesn’t hit me
• Reactively … I got hit by something, now I need to cleanse, heal, etc.

When talking about geomancy/hydromancy sigils, saying that people “can react to it by cleansing” is the same as saying people “can react to Eviscerate by healing” … in short … rather dumb.

I think the argument using Warrior’s [lack of] instant cast abilities is pretty weak given that Warrior is already compensated by their telegraphs by the fact that those skills hit harder than many other classes’ skills. It’s part of this amazing thing called “balance”.

P.S. so a trait “isn’t OP”, but it would take a “broken OP” for you to change your mind about the trait that “isn’t OP” … this seems contradictory.

Note: I’m not saying that FH is OP … just that he is contradicting himself … again.

For fellow warriors saying NO for a baseline Warrior’s Sprint :

Please bear with me for a moment.

let us suppose we got Fast Hand as baseline.

lets say i picked STR + DEF lines and still considering my next line.

I am Aiming for Adrenaline and Movement speed.

if i go DISC ill get :

• +25% movement speed.
• 5 adrenaline strikes on 5s cd.
• keeping 33% of my adrenaline.
• perma 4 might stacks.
• +7% damage for Bursts.
• lower cd for Bursts.
• a choice between 0%-24% boost to damage or 1 condi clear on 5s cd.

lets say i went to ARMS :

1st choice is Signet Mastery, with this you can keep swiftness for 25s @ 48s cd.

But you still got 23s of downtime.

So i would pick Rending Strikes to help, but still, you need about 7 guaranteed crits, with 33% chance that means +21 crit hits!!!……..all that just to get about 23s of swiftness and right assuming you run with 100% crit chance.

So in terms of swiftness, WS is way better than 2 major ARMS traits.

Lets say i picked Furious to generate adrenaline, in order for this trait to beat Versatile Rage i need to crit my enemy Once in every second !!!.

So in general i will get from ARMS:

• 33% chance for 1 bleed, 3s swiftness and 8s vulnerability on a crit.
• 25s swiftness, 5 stacks of might and Fury on 48s cd.
• +50% crit chance on stunned foes.
• +10% damage to bleeding foes.
• +50% bleed duration.
• 1 adrenaline strikes on crit.

Some good things, but It doesn’t fix my movement speed problems or adrenaline generating.

The only way to fix my problem without picking DISC is to pick a Warhorn, Shouts and TACT trait line xD…. a Shoutbow without the Bow.

Or save the headache and pick DISC, then ill get what i want plus ton of great traits.

It’s a question of trade offs that also factor into gear selection.

For example, a while back I shifted away from WS and went with pack runes, which allowed me to maintain perma swiftness in combat and pretty much perms swiftness out of combat using SoR and Balanced Stance. I find this better than WS, and Pack Runes is a great rune set otherwise, even though I ended up putting my Strength Runes in the bank when I made the switch.

I can also run with a traited warhorn to give 10 people perma swiftness,. Again no WS required, and Tactics is becoming a more useful line under the new changes, making this a very viable option.

I can just rely on the gap closers on weapons for mobility if I want, or I can use ranged weapons if dealing with kiters and assuming I’m not using escape as a defense strategy, or I could equip Traveller or Speed Runes like everybody else if I felt my mobility was too low and I didn’t want to change my traits or weapons.

That’s pretty much why I’m not for making WS baseline. We have more options than most classes when it comes to mobility.

Choppy.4183:

It’s a question of trade offs that also factor into gear selection.

For example, a while back I shifted away from WS and went with pack runes, which allowed me to maintain perma swiftness in combat and pretty much perms swiftness out of combat using SoR and Balanced Stance. I find this better than WS, and Pack Runes is a great rune set otherwise, even though I ended up putting my Strength Runes in the bank when I made the switch.

I can also run with a traited warhorn to give 10 people perma swiftness,. Again no WS required, and Tactics is becoming a more useful line under the new changes, making this a very viable option.

I can just rely on the gap closers on weapons for mobility if I want, or I can use ranged weapons if dealing with kiters and assuming I’m not using escape as a defense strategy, or I could equip Traveller or Speed Runes like everybody else if I felt my mobility was too low and I didn’t want to change my traits or weapons.

That’s pretty much why I’m not for making WS baseline. We have more options than most classes when it comes to mobility.

So you wanted every warrior to pick pack runes and traited warhorn so full TACT line ?!

i mentioned this in my post up a TACT warrior defiantly has no needs for Warrior’s Sprint.

Also why should i take pack runes ? the easier path will be to actually pick DISC line :] and be done with it.

Here is a better suggestion :

• Baseline Fast Hands
• Warriors Sprint moved to STR line replacing Building Momentum

Since a Shoutbow or any build that try to bunker points has no need for swiftness but they get it free because it is just there in same lines they trait to, but a STR warrior needs swiftness and have to trait DISC or Pack runes in your case.

His point was that you have alternatives to Warrior’s Sprint that are just as good if not better.

That makes Warrior’s Sprint far less “required” than something like Fast Hands.

Sebrent.3625:

His point was that you have alternatives to Warrior’s Sprint that are just as good if not better.

That makes Warrior’s Sprint far less “required” than something like Fast Hands.

The alternative ironically is to be a lesser degree shout warrior.

and thats wrong it is not better, DISC line as a whole package is better than any alternative.

Juba.8406:

So you wanted every warrior to pick pack runes and traited warhorn so full TACT line ?!

i mentioned this in my post up a TACT warrior defiantly has no needs for Warrior’s Sprint.

Also why should i take pack runes ? the easier path will be to actually pick DISC line :] and be done with it.

Here is a better suggestion :

• Baseline Fast Hands
• Warriors Sprint moved to STR line replacing Building Momentum

Since a Shoutbow or any build that try to bunker points has no need for swiftness but they get it free because it is just there in same lines they trait to, but a STR warrior needs swiftness and have to trait DISC or Pack runes in your case.

Not at all, I gave a couple of ways people could maintain very good swiftness and/or combat mobility without traiting WS. You don’t need Tactics AND Pack Runes to do it (I normally don’t run tactics for roaming, for example), and you could just rely on your weapons if you wanted to (though I wouldn’t want to, personally).

Moving WS to Strength and FH baseline would certainly be convenient for the builds I like to run, but i don’t see how it addresses any class issues, it just makes things more convenient for some builds. Seems to me if WS is so important, you’ve just swapped Discipline for Strength which doesn’t address your core concern.

We’re actually quite fortunate with Pack Runes in that they bring a lot of punch and mobility that compliments damage oriented warriors very well. Traveler and Speed runes more or less replicate WS as it is now (not the new version), but I find them too much of a sacrifice.

At the end of the day, I think we have to keep that in mind. The issue is optimizing within tradeoffs and warriors currently have more ways than most classes to maintain high speed and mobility. That’s why I’m not personally convinced FH and WS are even remotely on the same level from a class viability point of view. WS is just a very good trait, especially the new one, particularly for melee warriors.

Would giving Warriors baseline Fast Hands break the warrior in any shape or form? NO, most builds would revolve around discipline anyway because it is one of the stronger warrior trait lines. It just gives the Warrior more options, say to run a Strength/Tactics/Defense build but of course that will come with its sacrifices. So the OP argument is kind of flawed in the sense that almost all warriors use it and it is hardly overpowered in that context. Making Fast Hands baseline so Warriors could switch from Discipline to Tactics hardly screams OP at all. And people act like the only reason they choose discipline is because of Fast Hands. You give up so much damage and utility for straight up support/healing. Warrior’s will still face major tradeoffs.

Either remove the kitten trait and balance around that (which is definitely much harder to do). Make Fast Hands baseline, or maybe come up with some happy compromise (Reduce baseline weapon swap from 10 to 7.5 seconds).

Choppy.4183:

Juba.8406:

So you wanted every warrior to pick pack runes and traited warhorn so full TACT line ?!

i mentioned this in my post up a TACT warrior defiantly has no needs for Warrior’s Sprint.

Also why should i take pack runes ? the easier path will be to actually pick DISC line :] and be done with it.

Here is a better suggestion :

• Baseline Fast Hands
• Warriors Sprint moved to STR line replacing Building Momentum

Since a Shoutbow or any build that try to bunker points has no need for swiftness but they get it free because it is just there in same lines they trait to, but a STR warrior needs swiftness and have to trait DISC or Pack runes in your case.

Not at all, I gave a couple of ways people could maintain very good swiftness and/or combat mobility without traiting WS. You don’t need Tactics AND Pack Runes to do it (I normally don’t run tactics for roaming, for example), and you could just rely on your weapons if you wanted to (though I wouldn’t want to, personally).

Moving WS to Strength and FH baseline would certainly be convenient for the builds I like to run, but i don’t see how it addresses any class issues, it just makes things more convenient for some builds. Seems to me if WS is so important, you’ve just swapped Discipline for Strength which doesn’t address your core concern.

We’re actually quite fortunate with Pack Runes in that they bring a lot of punch and mobility that compliments damage oriented warriors very well. Traveler and Speed runes more or less replicate WS as it is now (not the new version), but I find them too much of a sacrifice.

At the end of the day, I think we have to keep that in mind. The issue is optimizing within tradeoffs and warriors currently have more ways than most classes to maintain high speed and mobility. That’s why I’m not personally convinced FH and WS are even remotely on the same level from a class viability point of view. WS is just a very good trait, especially the new one, particularly for melee warriors.

Still why would i bother with limiting my runes options when i could simply just pick DISC ? and get not only WS but a bunch of very great traits ?

Even if FH was made baseline, DISC will be picked you will be shooting yourself in the foot for not picking it, DISC is simply a heavy trait line need to be lighten up a bit.

The first step to lighten that line after making FH baseline is WS removed from there, the irony currently that the meta builds has no needs for WS, yet they get it for free, But a STR warrior relies on mobility more than anything else, Then a STR warrior could run STR-ARMS-DEF and sets the base right for a possible STR-SPEC-DEF when HoT get released.

With the lack of answers we get on this topic it just became very clear to me.

The spec will have Fast Hands baseline.

Juba.8406:

Still why would i bother with limiting my runes options when i could simply just pick DISC ? and get not only WS but a bunch of very great traits ?

Even if FH was made baseline, DISC will be picked you will be shooting yourself in the foot for not picking it, DISC is simply a heavy trait line need to be lighten up a bit.

The first step to lighten that line after making FH baseline is WS removed from there, the irony currently that the meta builds has no needs for WS, yet they get it for free, But a STR warrior relies on mobility more than anything else, Then a STR warrior could run STR-ARMS-DEF and sets the base right for a possible STR-SPEC-DEF when HoT get released.

That’s the thing, you would (ideally) only do it when there was an advantage for you to do it. Warrior Sprint gives a benefit that’s achievable through a number of paths, and it’s up to you to figure out the best path for you to get that benefit (i.e. the path with the lowest opportunity cost for you).

If Discipline is the best path for you, then that’s the one you should take. If, for example, WS was moved to Strength as you suggested, it would be better for you because you’re taking the line anyway and you’ve placed it in competition with traits that aren’t that amazing for you anyway. This frees you up to gear exactly how you want for another purpose (dps, defense, whatever) and to use your freed up trait line for a more optimal purpose. You may still choose Discipline though, since its value to burst-oriented builds is still very high.

But moving it to Strength doesn’t help people who’d rather take Defense over Strength for their builds. Even if they were taking Tactics, it doesn’t mean they wanted to pack or trait a warhorn. So moving WS there comes at their expense, and there’s nothing, as far as I know, that makes the builds I (and I’m assuming you) like to run more deserving of WS, especially when there are other paths to gain speed.

I think most, if not all, of the classes have speed boosts of some sort now, and they all have to make trade-offs to get them. They also have access to gear to improve their speed if they feel it’s necessary. What’s the case that supports warriors being different in this regard and have it baselined?

fwiw, I’d be willing to build outside of Discipline if FH wasn’t there and without any other changes being made to the Discipline line. I don’t find it too weighted with WS in there personally.

Choppy.4183:

I think most, if not all, of the classes have speed boosts of some sort now, and they all have to make trade-offs to get them. They also have access to gear to improve their speed if they feel it’s necessary. What’s the case that supports warriors being different in this regard and have it baselined?

“Warriors are masters of weaponry who rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle. Adrenaline fuels their offensive power—the longer warriors stay in a fight, the more dangerous they become.”
ArenaNet Description of Warrior

This is the problem every other profession is now a mini warrior, the edge that warrior got with mobility is diminishing.

Speed of what? It doesn’t specify. Fast Hands is some speedy weapon swapping. Greatsword provides some nice movement speed. Greatsword’s Hundred Blades also shows some speedy bladework.

Let’s go to some other class description:

• Engineer: They can take control of an area by placing turrets … until everyone griped and it got nerfed hard.
• Necromancer: Necromancers feed on life force, which they can use to bring allies back from the brink … Necromancers don’t use Life Force to rez allies.
• Ranger: With traps, nature spirits, and a stable of loyal pets at their command, rangers can adapt to any situation. … except large scale events / zergs … where spirits and pets don’t do much beyond die to stray AOEs/cleaves
• Guardian: True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory. … except Guardians don’t really sacrifice their defenses to empower their allies … they just empower their allies.

Gaining a passive 25% movespeed from a trait or utility makes another class a mini warrior, then I believe you don’t have a clue what makes Warrior what it is.

I think you are far too caught up on a class description quite likely written by a non-developer, non-designer back before the game was even released.

… or you are using it as your one crutch to try to still argue this “point” of yours …