Guild Wars 2

TLDR : check this post

Defense is one of our staple trait lines alongside Discipline currently.

With the new changes coming to core traits like picking a whole line and the inability to take an adept/master trait in the place of a Grandmaster, then Defense traits distribution is in a total mess and have some serious problems.

The fact that we will likely still get locked into Defense line just like the current state, if that is so then we at least need this line to be better tweaked.

So to begin and to simplify things, Defense got 3 Major problems :

• 1) Weak traits “Thick Skin” & “Cull the Weak”
• 2) Black Hole trait “Cleansing Ire”
• 3) Traits distribution

Lets explain these problems :

In adept we have 3 heavy weight great traits competing against each other, at first glance you would mistook it for a Grandmaster tier not adept.
“Shield Master”, “Dogged March” & “Armored Attack”, and since you cant pick 2 adept traits, these traits needs to be spread out a bit.

In Master we have Cleansing Ire a Black Hole trait, The whole trait line will be picked for just this trait and as a Major trait then no matter what 2 trait you pair it with Cleansing Ire will literally EAT it, Yes the changes coming to Mending and Brawler’s Recovery could shake things up a bit but still CI will be picked not just for condi cleansing but also for Adrenaline generating.

In Grandmaster we got some good traits but not worthy of a GM status, Adept & Master are far better than the GM.

We also have WEAK traits “Thick Skin” & “Cull the Weak”, that either not worthy or will never get picked.

for better visualizing this, check dulfy calculater
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AggDqAKoBKg~

Lets start addressing these issues one by one:

Cull the Weak Increases 5% damage to wakened foes. Striking a foe below the 25% health threshold inflicts weakness.

This trait is paired with Cleansing Ire, it will never get picked up, in fact as a major trait it will never get picked up anywhere.
its just not weak enough to be better deleted like “Desperate Power” and not good enough to be considered a Major trait.

So ,,make it a Minor trait, this will be the best solution i can think of for this trait and give the Weakness Application a 10-15s cooldown .

Thick Skin Gain extra armor while your health is above the threshold (90%).

This trait is just bad not even worth a minor, i think i’m not going far for saying its the worst trait for Warrior ever.

So should we just delete it or make it a real trait ? That is the question.

I have a suggestion for this trait that you might find cool.

Since ANET deleted Desperate Power and I agree with that decision, that trait is just useless and it never get picked, so i thought why not merge Thick Skin + Desperate Power and make it a real trait renamed to something cool like:

Reactive Armor Gain extra armor (+150 toughness) while your health is above the threshold 75%, You deal additional damage +20% while below the health threshold 25%.

Now this is a trait worthy of a Major status not a minor any more, think of the synergy with Defy Pain & Last Stand , this is your new far improved YOLO warrior build.

Cleansing Ire Gain adrenaline when hit. Remove a condition for every bar of adrenaline spent when you hit with a burst skill.

On June 25, 2013 two years ago, Warrior got reborn thanks to this trait, Every warrior took refuge in this trait after being for so long in the bottom of the barrel.

But still this trait is hurting Warrior’s build diversity so much only surpassed by Fast Hands.

Also its a Major trait, No one will pick the 2 other traits no matter what.

• A Must have trait, Forcing the defense line upon warriors.
• Its a Major Master trait, rendering the two neighboring traits useless.

So what we can do to improve things ?

well we can do one of the followings :

• (1) Make Cleansing Ire Baseline.
• (2) Move Cleansing Ire to Discipline trait line as a minor.
• (3) Make Embrace the Pain Baseline. (Gain adrenaline when hit)
• (4) Make Cleansing Ire a Minor in Defense trait line.

(1) crazy right ?
(2) Diversity ultimate solution ? keeping all the black hole traits in 1 line.
(3) with the coming changes to Mending and Brawler’s recovery we might just need the (Gain adrenaline when hit) aspect of CI as baseline, but still CI will get picked.
(4) if everything up there failed, then please at least make Cleansing Ire a Minor trait with this we can actually choose a trait in Master tier.

I will assume Anet took the worst case scenario which is (4) make CI a Minor trait.

Since we made Thick skin a real trait > Reactive Armor, it should be a Major trait.

We also moved Cull the weak to be a Minor trait.

Also we assume Cleansing Ire will be a Minor trait, defiantly will take Spiked Armor spot.

So to arrange these traits having in mind how Heavy is Adept tier compared to Master and Grandmaster.

Then i suggest this distribution for our Defense traits :

Minors :

• Cull the weak.
• Adrenal Health.
• Cleansing Ire.

Adept :

• Reactive Armor.
• Dogged March.
• Spiked Armor.

Master :

• Sundering Mace.
• Armored Attack.
• Defy Pain.

Grandmaster :

• Rousing Resilience.
• Last Stand.
• Shield Master.

Check the attached image below :

Why don’t they just remove all traits from Warrior completely, not even bother with builds where you have to make compromises like those other pleb classes? Just make them all baseline.

Or…

I’m just joking btw… Seriously though, you have some ideas there that would work nicely and this would be a pretty decent change for defense. Some of the traits in there, like CI, simply HAVE to be taken. The spread you have there is not OP, its pretty good. I’m also not a fan of Spiked Armor being a minor.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I’m just joking btw… Seriously though, you have some ideas there that would work nicely and this would be a pretty decent change for defense. Some of the traits in there, like CI, simply HAVE to be taken. The spread you have there is not OP, its pretty good. I’m also not a fan of Spiked Armor being a minor.

Never expected the ranger to agree to this, good points.

Waiting for fellow warriors feedback.

It seem my fellow Warriors don’t like reading Walls of text, well who does so guilty myself.

TLDR

• Cull the weak is now a minor.
• Thick Skin is merged with Desperate power and now is a major.
• Cleansing Ire is now a minor.
• Adept traits now spread out between all three tiers and some other traits redistributed.

check the attached image.

Overall, I would say that I prefer your proposed changes over the current planed defense line. Cull the Weak is not a very interesting trait, but it is certainly preferable to the current Thick Skin. Your trait distribution is more desirable, and Cleansing Ire as a minor is a great idea.

Personally, I don’t care for how they did the new “Last Stand.” It is one of those traits that is a lump composed of weaker traits. I think such traits should be reworked to appear more streamlined. In this case, I would replace the 6 sec of vigor and +25% stance duration with a -20% cd reduction. The vigor can be moved to Defy Pain to split up the trait a bit.

Side note: The other lumpy warrior trait, Vigorous Shouts, can be changed similarly by transferring the +adrenaline portion of the trait to “Shrug it Off.”

Juba.8406:

It seem my fellow Warriors don’t like reading Walls of text, well who does so guilty myself.

Ahah now the biter is bit ;p

More seriously though, I have nothing to criticize here. I find your ideas particularly balanced (don’t you want to take the place of someone at Anet ? ;D) and I like the way you create new synergies.

Regarding CI though, the problem is : no matter what you do with it, it will always stay a must-have trait.
Because the thing is, I do agree that making CI a minor trait would be really nice but it wouldn’t solve the problem of build diversity as everyone would still be forced to take this line. So, sure you could still take another trait and it would be a good start in making this traitline better but honestly, I doubt that any other trait is going to be worth the sacrifice of taking this whole traitline I mean look at the traits we’ve got the choice with : none is going to be “build making”.

No the real problem is the trait in itself, maybe they should tone the cleansing part down a bit to even things out, I don’t know.

Juba.8406:

---

(2) The Black Hole
Cleansing Ire

---

Cleansing Ire Gain adrenaline when hit. Remove a condition for every bar of adrenaline spent when you hit with a burst skill.

On June 25, 2013 two years ago, Warrior got reborn thanks to this trait, Every warrior took refuge in this trait after being for so long in the bottom of the barrel.

But still this trait is hurting Warrior’s build diversity so much only surpassed by Fast Hands.

Also its a Major trait, No one will pick the 2 other traits no matter what.

• A Must have trait, Forcing the defense line upon warriors.
• Its a Major Master trait, rendering the two neighboring traits useless.

So what we can do to improve things ?

well we can do one of the followings :

• (1) Make Cleansing Ire Baseline.
• (2) Move Cleansing Ire to Discipline trait line as a minor.
• (3) Make Embrace the Pain Baseline. (Gain adrenaline when hit)
• (4) Make Cleansing Ire a Minor in Defense trait line.

(1) crazy right ?
(2) Diversity ultimate solution ? keeping all the black hole traits in 1 line.
(3) with the coming changes to Mending and Brawler’s recovery we might just need the (Gain adrenaline when hit) aspect of CI as baseline, but still CI will get picked.
(4) if everything up there failed, then please at least make Cleansing Ire a Minor trait with this we can actually choose a trait in Master tier.

I will assume Anet took the worst case scenario which is (4) make CI a Minor trait.

These are fantastic ideas and I hope someone from Anet is paying attention here.

I like all of the above, though I do not think that “(2) Move Cleansing Ire to Discipline trait line as a minor” is necessary, as Discipline already has Brawler’s Recovery, and lumping all the must-haves into one line will hurt build diversity.

PS I nominate Juba for Forum Specialist: Warrior

FatRaKoon.1782:

Regarding CI though, the problem is : no matter what you do with it, it will always stay a must-have trait.
Because the thing is, I do agree that making CI a minor trait would be really nice but it wouldn’t solve the problem of build diversity as everyone would still be forced to take this line. So, sure you could still take another trait and it would be a good start in making this traitline better but honestly, I doubt that any other trait is going to be worth the sacrifice of taking this whole traitline I mean look at the traits we’ve got the choice with : none is going to be “build making”.

No the real problem is the trait in itself, maybe they should tone the cleansing part down a bit to even things out, I don’t know.

It’s not a must have trait now, just a really good one. Even your recommendation to tone down the cleansing suggests that it’s a “too good to pass up” trait rather than a “must have”.

How important it is depends on (a) how many conditions you’re facing vs alternative cleansing mechanisms, and (b) your opportunities for adrenaline generation. Some dps builds don’t use it (e.g. a variant of the roaming a+sh/gs and that Vaans gs/r build). Lack of food in pvp and, well, shoutbow, mean CI’s pretty much always run there though.

Still, making Mending a traitable physical skill and the more advantageous positioning of Brawler’s Recovery in the new trait system will reduce the condi incentive to take CI when HoT drops.

Then there’s the proposal to make Embrace the Pain baseline, thereby removing the adren building value of CI (Juba’s option 3). There’s no reason to think that will happen and, if it doesn’t, it means CI will continue to have a lot of value in that regard. But, as mentioned, you can make some viable builds now that don’t have CI even though it’s relatively more valuable than it will be under the already-announced new trait system.

Gevinor.4503:

Overall, I would say that I prefer your proposed changes over the current planed defense line. Cull the Weak is not a very interesting trait, but it is certainly preferable to the current Thick Skin. Your trait distribution is more desirable, and Cleansing Ire as a minor is a great idea.

Personally, I don’t care for how they did the new “Last Stand.” It is one of those traits that is a lump composed of weaker traits. I think such traits should be reworked to appear more streamlined. In this case, I would replace the 6 sec of vigor and +25% stance duration with a -20% cd reduction. The vigor can be moved to Defy Pain to split up the trait a bit.

Side note: The other lumpy warrior trait, Vigorous Shouts, can be changed similarly by transferring the +adrenaline portion of the trait to “Shrug it Off.”

Well thank you, glad to hear warriors thoughts of this.

For Last Stand as it stands for up coming changes, its really worthy of a GM spot, free stability with vigor and extended stances time.

with this trait you could build a warrior with 0 stability from utilities, 8s would be enough for a yolo warrior to kill his foe, -20% is great but i don’t think we will see that.

Juba.8406:

---

(1) Weak traits
Cull the Weak

---

Cull the Weak Increases 5% damage to wakened foes. Striking a foe below the 25% health threshold inflicts weakness.

This trait is paired with Cleansing Ire, it will never get picked up, in fact as a major trait it will never get picked up anywhere.
its just not weak enough to be better deleted like “Desperate Power” and not good enough to be considered a Major trait.

So ,,make it a Minor trait, this will be the best solution i can think of for this trait and give the Weakness Application a 10-15s cooldown .

---

(1) Weak traits
Thick Skin

---

Thick Skin Gain extra armor while your health is above the threshold (90%).

This trait is just bad not even worth a minor, i think i’m not going far for saying its the worst trait for Warrior ever.

So should we just delete it or make it a real trait ? That is the question.

I have a suggestion for this trait that you might find cool.

Since ANET deleted Desperate Power and I agree with that decision, that trait is just useless and it never get picked, so i thought why not merge Thick Skin + Desperate Power and make it a real trait renamed to something cool like:

Reactive Armor Gain extra armor (+150 toughness) while your health is above the threshold 75%, You deal additional damage +20% while below the health threshold 25%.

Now this is a trait worthy of a Major status not a minor any more, think of the synergy with Defy Pain & Last Stand , this is your new far improved YOLO warrior build.

For Thick Skin, simply add a chance for the toughness proc to proc when below 40% HP.

For defense line, I would really like something that improves skill 4 on Shield.

Also something that adds regen to Rampage or some other special effect.

Also faster cast time on burst skills would be nice as well.

Edit:

Shield Master- along with current effect, Shield 4 has larger range and gives 90 toughness.

Cull the Weak- along with current effect, Rampage grants might/Hammer Damage increased for 5 seconds after being hit by a crit.

Thick Skin- 40% chance to gain increased armor while struck by an attack while below 50% HP, and 100% while above 90%. Negates Defiant Stance.

Switch Armored Attack with Last Stand.

Last Stand + Rousing Resilience works very well with each other. I use it on my SW leech build. I get auto-toughness + stability proc at the same time.

Plus, Armored Attack would work well with Sundering mace if I want to use a offensive defense trait build.

Choppy.4183:

It’s not a must have trait now, just a really good one. Even your recommendation to tone down the cleansing suggests that it’s a “too good to pass up” trait rather than a “must have”.

How important it is depends on (a) how many conditions you’re facing vs alternative cleansing mechanisms, and (b) your opportunities for adrenaline generation. Some dps builds don’t use it (e.g. a variant of the roaming a+sh/gs and that Vaans gs/r build). Lack of food in pvp and, well, shoutbow, mean CI’s pretty much always run there though.

Still, making Mending a traitable physical skill and the more advantageous positioning of Brawler’s Recovery in the new trait system will reduce the condi incentive to take CI when HoT drops.

Then there’s the proposal to make Embrace the Pain baseline, thereby removing the adren building value of CI (Juba’s option 3). There’s no reason to think that will happen and, if it doesn’t, it means CI will continue to have a lot of value in that regard. But, as mentioned, you can make some viable builds now that don’t have CI even though it’s relatively more valuable than it will be under the already-announced new trait system.

Well yeah, I have that bad habit of always talking from the PvP perspective. My bad for not mentioning it !
Nonetheless, you have to explain to me the difference you make between “must-have” and “too good to pass up” because to me, if the involved reasoning may differ, the consequence is exactly the same : you have to take it. The semantic part does not really matter.

As I stated on another topic, I don’t think F1 cleanse is our primary one (although it’s definitely very good). I mean warrior has plenty of ways to resist condi even without the trait.
What bothers me is regarding the adrenaline gain : warrior needs adrenaline in sPvP, it’s a core mechanic of the class. That’s why making Embrace the Pain baseline seems like the best idea to me.

Currently, if you don’t take CI, most of sPvP builds become unviable (i.e Shoutbow, Hambow), so I wish we’d have an alternative.

FatRaKoon.1782:

Nonetheless, you have to explain to me the difference you make between “must-have” and “too good to pass up” because to me, if the involved reasoning may differ, the consequence is exactly the same : you have to take it….

What bothers me is regarding the adrenaline gain : warrior needs adrenaline in sPvP, it’s a core mechanic of the class. That’s why making Embrace the Pain baseline seems like the best idea to me.

Currently, if you don’t take CI, most of sPvP builds become unviable (i.e Shoutbow, Hambow), so I wish we’d have an alternative.

Water and sex. One you need to live, and the other one is water. That’s more or less the difference to me.

The importance of CI even in pvp is somewhat obscured by the stats that come with it: toughness, power (through Armored Attack), and healing power (to a lesser extent). Dogged March is also an important stop along the way.

After the trait changes (apparently coming sooner than expected), we’ll see how important CI is without the associated stats. Similarly, we’ll see if builds that don’t trait Defense can become more viable through different gear selection and if the separation of traits from stats will open up new vulnerabilities in our opponents.

Anet has already scheduled improvements to our condi clearing in the new traits. That somewhat decreases the opportunity cost of not taking CI. The adren generation thing is a bit harder to predict, but I do think CI will prove to be valuable rather than indispensable for that.

I’m still in support of making Embrace the Pain baseline, but recognize that may mean the amount of adren we’d have to generate for a burst will have to increase if that happens.

FatRaKoon.1782:

Juba.8406:

It seem my fellow Warriors don’t like reading Walls of text, well who does so guilty myself.

Ahah now the biter is bit ;p

More seriously though, I have nothing to criticize here. I find your ideas particularly balanced (don’t you want to take the place of someone at Anet ? ;D) and I like the way you create new synergies.

Regarding CI though, the problem is : no matter what you do with it, it will always stay a must-have trait.
Because the thing is, I do agree that making CI a minor trait would be really nice but it wouldn’t solve the problem of build diversity as everyone would still be forced to take this line. So, sure you could still take another trait and it would be a good start in making this traitline better but honestly, I doubt that any other trait is going to be worth the sacrifice of taking this whole traitline I mean look at the traits we’ve got the choice with : none is going to be “build making”.

No the real problem is the trait in itself, maybe they should tone the cleansing part down a bit to even things out, I don’t know.

lol, thank you.

I agree with you, but I think fast hands is now the real criminal of diversity.

We got mending and brawelers recovery to compete with CI cleansing but we got nothing to shake FH even for a tiny bit, that’s why I don’t think CI should be baseline but FH should be.

But still any warrior building into Defense will be shooting himself in the foot for not picking CI over any other trait, so making it a minor gives us 3 traits to actually choose between.

It’s already the best traitline Warrior can pick, and even better post specialization changes. Yet you want more…. Coming from the same person who want Fast Hand and Warrior Sprint Baseline…

It is so true that Greed is one of the seven greatest sins of human beings.

Here’s a post that reflects your LOGIC perfectly.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Let-s-push-traits-into-Baseline/first

Aomine.5012:

It’s already the best traitline Warrior can pick, and even better post specialization changes. Yet you want more…. Coming from the same person who want Fast Hand and Warrior Sprint Baseline…

It is so true that Greed is one of the seven greatest sins of human beings.

Its not the best traitline, it is the most necessary traitline because of a single trait. Every other trait in the line is trash.

runeblade.7514:

Aomine.5012:

It’s already the best traitline Warrior can pick, and even better post specialization changes. Yet you want more…. Coming from the same person who want Fast Hand and Warrior Sprint Baseline…

It is so true that Greed is one of the seven greatest sins of human beings.

Its not the best traitline, it is the most necessary traitline because of a single trait. Every other trait in the line is trash.

Dogged March, Last Stand, Spiked Armor, Adrenaline Heal trashes huh.
As expected from the greediest class of the game.

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-warrior-defense-specialization.jpg

Aomine.5012:

runeblade.7514:

Aomine.5012:

It’s already the best traitline Warrior can pick, and even better post specialization changes. Yet you want more…. Coming from the same person who want Fast Hand and Warrior Sprint Baseline…

It is so true that Greed is one of the seven greatest sins of human beings.

Its not the best traitline, it is the most necessary traitline because of a single trait. Every other trait in the line is trash.

Dodged March, Last Stance, Spiked Armor, Adrenaline Heal trashes huh.
As expected from the greediest class of the game.

Find me a viable build that uses Last Stand, and Spiked Armor. Last stand won’t be a viable trait anyways when specialization hit because Cleansing Ire competes with Cleansing Ire.

Adrenaline heal is minor regen. If Cleansing Ire weren’t there in master major, no one would take adrenal heal.

Dogged March is the better trait in the pile of trash traits. Plus it is adept and doesn’t conflict with cleansing ire. If Dogged March was Master, I would not use this trait. If it was Grandmaster, I might use it because the other GM traits are just bad.

If Cleansing Ire is suddenly moved over to Arms traits, warrior builds will no longer use the defense trait line ever again. If you think I’m wrong, make a viable pvp build that doesn’t use cleansing ire and has points in the defense line. Then get it peer reviewed in Metabattle or in this warrior subforum. Then you can become a warrior community hero that revolutionize warrior’s build.

runeblade.7514:

Aomine.5012:

runeblade.7514:

Aomine.5012:

It’s already the best traitline Warrior can pick, and even better post specialization changes. Yet you want more…. Coming from the same person who want Fast Hand and Warrior Sprint Baseline…

It is so true that Greed is one of the seven greatest sins of human beings.

Its not the best traitline, it is the most necessary traitline because of a single trait. Every other trait in the line is trash.

Dodged March, Last Stance, Spiked Armor, Adrenaline Heal trashes huh.
As expected from the greediest class of the game.

Find me a viable build that uses Last Stand, and Spiked Armor. Last stand won’t be a viable trait anyways when specialization hit because Cleansing Ire competes with Cleansing Ire.

Adrenaline heal is minor regen. If Cleansing Ire weren’t there in master major, no one would take adrenal heal.

Dogged March is the better trait in the pile of trash traits. Plus it is adept and doesn’t conflict with cleansing ire. If Dogged March was Master, I would not use this trait. If it was Grandmaster, I might use it because the other GM traits are just bad.

If Cleansing Ire is suddenly moved over to Arms traits, warrior builds will no longer use the defense trait line ever again. If you think I’m wrong, make a viable pvp build that doesn’t use cleansing ire and has points in the defense line. Then get it peer reviewed in Metabattle or in this warrior subforum. Then you can become a warrior community hero that revolutionize warrior’s build.

Warrior’s logic:
Because a trait makes us OP, it should be baseline/minor because we’ll take it 100% time because of how OP it is.

Same logic can be applied to all classes. Lead the Wind makes LB OP and mandatory to any power ranger, so it should be baseline/minor.

Going to quote from this guy:

ronpierce.2760

Explain, hopefully it reverted you from actually thinking this is a good idea because these changes are absolutely silly, what they’re asking for.
1.) Classes don’t have innate bonuses like this. Anything made baseline were direct changes to abilities to reduce the specific skill trait dependencies, not remove the impact of traits on the characters.
2.) The things they want baseline (warrior) are some of the best traits in the game.
3.) They could just as easily give everyone 5 second swaps or nerf Fast Hands to not be as mandatory, but no, they don’t want that, there is no give and take here.
4.) Warriors are fine and will be even more fine after the changes.
5.) Most warriors would still end up using Discipline, likely, anyways because of the other swap-traits and Burst mastery.
6.) All of this is a silly slippery slope, anything having to do with Burst skills and weapons, or anything that seems “warrior-ish” has slowly been added to the list of wishful-baselining.

Look at Necromancers, there is a LOT of stuff that affects Life Force, Death Shroud and Death Shroud skills, it doesn’t mean it have to all be baseline just because almost every Necro will take Vital Persistence and the other traits affect their “core mechanic”. Traits affect a number of things, and that’s perfectly fine.

Seriously, this thread is silly and frankly, shameful. At least your tree-defining traits are mostly minors (with the exception of Cleansing Ire). I’d kill for Vital Persistence to be a Minor rather than forcing a choice in that column, let alone baseline…

Aomine.5012:

Warrior’s logic:
Because a trait makes us OP, it should be baseline/minor because we’ll take it 100% time because of how OP it is.

What measure are you using to determine warriors are OP? We already know that practically all warriors run FH and most run CI, so… are you finding warriors routinely beat you senseless? Is that what this is about, big guy? Lol.

Aomine,

I wouldn’t say that Juba’s trait distribution is op.

My current defense trait distribution:
Thick Skin + Dogged March + Adrenal Health + Cleansing Ire + Armored Attack + Merciless Hammer

My preferred distribution using Anet’s planned defense line:
Thick Skin + Dogged March + Adrenal Health + Cleansing Ire + Spiked Armor + Defy Pain

My preferred distribution using Juba’s version:
Cull the Weak + Dogged March + Adrenal Health + Armored Attack + Cleansing Ire + Last Stand

Net differences:
Current:
Thick Skin + Armored Attack + Merciless Hammer

Anet’s:
Thick Skin + Spiked Armor + Defy Pain

Juba’s:
Cull of the Weak + Armored Attack + Last Stand

I would take my current distribution any day of the week. For my purposes, the trait line is nerfed with Anet’s and Juba’s Distribution. His distribution is probably a buff for mace or shield users though. I wouldn’t say that its necessarily op for mace/shield considering the general power creep coming with the trait changes.

Choppy.4183:

Aomine.5012:

Warrior’s logic:
Because a trait makes us OP, it should be baseline/minor because we’ll take it 100% time because of how OP it is.

What measure are you using to determine warriors are OP? We already know that practically all warriors run FH and most run CI, so… are you finding warriors routinely beat you senseless? Is that what this is about, big guy? Lol.

Because the Top class and the “must have” + “most used” class in any PVP team need MORE direct buffs to make it viable (chuckle). There’s no give and take here, just straight buff buff buff.

Shockingly most of you guys agree to have more power. The greed of the top class is really endless. I sometimes make a list of improvement at the absolute bottom class’s forum, and the result is they mostly reject the changes and think the current one is good enough.

Aomine.5012:

Because the Top class and the “must have” + “most used” class in any PVP team need MORE direct buffs to make it viable (chuckle). There’s no give and take here, just straight buff buff buff.

Shockingly most of you guys agree to have more power. The greed of the top class is really endless. I sometimes make a list of improvement at the absolute bottom class’s forum, and the result is they mostly reject the changes and think the current one is good enough.

Let us know when you’re finished with your hissy fit. Go ahead, take a minute to collect yourself.

Perhaps once you do you’ll realize that if the “absolute bottom class” is telling you things are fine and rejecting your “improvements”, it’s probably because they, like us, see pretty clearly that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Feel better now? Good.

@Aomine : You are clearly in denial and that’s sad. You roam around those forums without having a clue of what’s going on and jump to the conclusion of warrior being greedy and OP…

Besides I love how those are always the ones that never touched a warrior that always have the most valuable and “correct” opinions. Like all those amateurs you think we want everything without giving anything but if you took the time to read some of the debates, you’d have noticed that what we want is a solution for build diversity : a warrior is currently forced into using two traitline because some of the traits are too good to pass up. With the incoming changes, it will result in the mandatory taking of two full trait line, giving us the choice of only one other.

Warriors could give up Fast Hands or CI anytime if we had a worthy alternative, so please stop with your delusional kitten, we’re here to discuss not to whine.

Same comments apply to your guy ronpierce. None of what he says makes sense (most of those points were heavily discussed in others threads anyway, proof that you criticize without knowing anything).

FatRaKoon.1782:

@Aomine : You are clearly in denial and that’s sad. You roam around those forums without having a clue of what’s going on and jump to the conclusion of warrior being greedy and OP…

Besides I love how those are always the ones that never touched a warrior that always have the most valuable and “correct” opinions. Like all those amateurs you think we want everything without giving anything but if you took the time to read some of the debates, you’d have noticed that what we want is a solution for build diversity : a warrior is currently forced into using two traitline because some of the traits are too good to pass up. With the incoming changes, it will result in the mandatory taking of two full trait line, giving us the choice of only one other.

Warriors could give up Fast Hands or CI anytime if we had a worthy alternative, so please stop with your delusional kitten, we’re here to discuss not to whine.

Same comments apply to your guy ronpierce. None of what he says makes sense (most of those points were heavily discussed in others threads anyway, proof that you criticize without knowing anything).

I know Warrior too well that it doesn’t need any buff whatsoever. Warrior is my 2nd most played class, also doing 90% of dungeon and 100% fractal with Warrior. I have 150 wins with my Warrior in PVP too a long time ago. I have him all ascended as well.
I cleared all the LS and Queen Jubilee with my Warrior as well.

You guys are just a greedy bunch of folks who want a class which is in perfect condition (and even better post patch because of all the good merges, unlike some of the classes which get their traitline completely messed up) to become even more OP.

You guys are the one who’s biased and ONLY play Warrior. I played all classes and know 90% of them relatively well. (Ofc, I only main 2 classes, but at least I know the concept and their well being relatively well) I read every changes on every classes, and concern with all of them. I’m not like you guys who only read your Warrior’s update.

The “forced into x trait-line” is just silly argument because it applies to 90% of the class if you want to be in Top tier. It’s perfectly viable to play without it, but you won’t be the top tier if you don’t play top tier build, that’s all. This logic goes to all classes because the “top build” can only have 1, because the definition of “top” is exclusive to the #1 build.

Last note: before you mock someone, how about you show something yourself to proof your credibility first?

Defense line is good the way it is.

To Choppy:
I did see all of Jobo and some of you guys posts. All I see is endless greed yes.
You have yet to refute any of my points as to why “good traits that most people pick” should be an excuse for baseline or minor traits, despite this same logic applies to 90% of the classes . You only quote the most unimportant part of my post and rebuts NOTHING. ronpierce.2760 already pointed out the case for Necro, and I already pointed out the case for Ranger. There’re cases of Arcana and Water for Ele too. There’re cases for thief grabbing the new Deadly Art and Trickery too. There’re cases for Guardians to grab the Mediation and Virtues too. If all of them are so “mandatory”, then we may as well remove traits already and make them all baseline. Oh, if you don’t understand what I’m talking about, it means you really know so little about other classes and the balance, that you only live in your little Warrior world.
(Btw all my above examples are talking about PVP perspective, because CI, FH is not required in PVE at all)

Also, what I mean by “proof of credibility” means to proof that you know all classes, proof that you’re unbiased toward any classes, and proof that you’re experienced players that know what you’re talking about. You can blab whatever you want and no-one other than you greedy but cooperate Warriors will agree upon. You can keep quoting useless stuffs and make fun of me, but you’ll never persuade anyone other than people who’re Warrior main ONLY.

Last note: Anet make things baseline not because they’re most used/ most picked, but because the skill is absolutely worthless without the trait. For example, Necro’s well is almost unusable without the ground target trait, ranger’s trap almost useless without ground-target in PVP, etc. You guys totally misinterpret the reason of why Anet make traits baseline.

Choppy.4183:

I suppose one way to avoid getting mocked is entering into an actual conversation with people, rather than jumping into the middle of one saying, “you’re all a bunch of greedy morons”. But that might be a little too socially advanced for you to understand, so I guess it’s mockery for you. XD

Ah, if people would only understand that. The fact that people are having a discussion already points at their willingness to listen to different opinions… as long as they are backed by something more than “I played x class for y hours, therefore I must be right”.

Defense line is good the way it is.

Nice argument, brah.

Ozzrel.9825:

I did point out many other things, just that Choppy only quote the unimportant part because he doesn’t has anything else to rebut. I post screenshot because someone “falsely accused” of me not playing Warrior, and only to enhance my credibility. I did make an argument, you guys just totally ignored it because it is against your mind-set of “infinitely buffing Warrior”. You can pretend you care about balance and pretend you know alot, but it means nothing without proof.

I don’t even agree with the changes proposed in this thread. But comparing warrior to other classes or saying that a change is not needed because it is a buff to warriors are weak arguments. Instead, how about you tell why the reasons the OP provided aren’t good enough, and then the conversation can finally move forward, instead of you arguing about who has more “credibility”.

Aomine.5012:

I did make an argument, you guys just totally ignored it because it is against your mind-set of “infinitely buffing Warrior”.

Buddy, I saw your posts about this in the Ranger subforum and they’re being dismissed there too.

You’re starting out with false conclusions only to create a greater cluster fail with every post. Nobody is going to take you seriously if you can’t be bothered to understand what’s being discussed before you start slinging nonsense.

Juba.8406:

It seem my fellow Warriors don’t like reading Walls of text, well who does so guilty myself.

TLDR

• Cull the weak is now a minor.
• Thick Skin is merged with Desperate power and now is a major.
• Cleansing Ire is now a minor.
• Adept traits now spread out between all three tiers and some other traits redistributed.

check the attached image.

I will still not pick Reactive Armor over dogged march or Spiked Armor with that trait line :x

Some of the ideas are cool and all it’s just that it’s a straight out buff to defense. The fact that I can have Last Stand, Endure Pain and Cleansing Ire is just pushing it tbh.

I would say in order for the defense tree to be balanced compared to the other trees, in this case the OTHER trees need to look more attractive. So far arms is looking really nice with the signet of might trait as a passive. Strength is looking okay.

I think Fast Hands being baseline by itself can potentially make non-defense and non-discipline builds (w/ Elite or without) attractive.

Seriously Aomine, you’re just trolling without bringing anything new to the table… That’s just plain sad.

First, I never mocked you. Second, posting a screen on your war shoutbow boasting about completing every Fractal success doesn’t mean you know the class (that’s nice though).

Since you don’t seem open to discussion, I don’t even know why you are still here trolling us.
I admit I don’t have a good knowledge of all the classes PvE wise but trust me, I played them all in sPvP and I mained my warrior for over 5k games in PvP, so I kinda know the drill, you can’t get me there.

Like all the other guys who tried to value their opinion on this matter, you insist on comparing warrior to other classes but clearly you didn’t read the spreadsheets about Chronomancer (or even saw the baselined traits of mesmers), and that’s just one example.

Besides, if you know warrior so well and think we are greedy and stuff, why were you so offensive from the start and didn’t even try to show us the way ? As I said, we’re just trying to find a way to get a better build diversity and clearly, you are unable to see the big picture here.
Sure, curently everything is fine for warrior (as it is for many other classes) but the thing is, the “forced into traitline” argument won’t apply to everyone after the update in case tou didn’t notice. Almost every class but warrior got important traits baselined that if they were not would have forced them into those traitlines (as for ranger).

I mean hell, try to be constructive and maybe we can understand each other.

Ozzrel.9825:

I don’t even agree with the changes proposed in this thread. But comparing warrior to other classes or saying that a change is not needed because it is a buff to warriors are weak arguments. Instead, how about you tell why the reasons the OP provided aren’t good enough, and then the conversation can finally move forward, instead of you arguing about who has more “credibility”.

Quite the opposite, it’s way too subjective if you don’t compare it with other classes. It is as if you only know Warrior and only care about the well-being of Warrior but not caring about the balance at all. Like I said already, if EVERY CLASSES have the same problem of having traits that’re too good and almost mandatory in PVP, then seriously this is a very weak argument to justify that Warrior’s “mandatory traits” become baseline/minor, while other classes don’t get the same treatment. Like I said earlier, Anet makes things baseline because some skills/weapons are TOO WEAK without the trait, that’s their reasoning for making traits baseline. Not because it’s too good and everyone picks them that it become baseline.

Btw, Choppy, dw, I won’t take you seriously either because you have yet to rebut any of my arguments but only derail the topic into personal area.

You’ve made an argument? I’ve seen nothing but accusations and total misunderstanding of the points ans arguments others have presented.

Choppy.4183:

You’ve made an argument? All I’ve seen is incoherent babble.

Having reading comprehension problem is really quite sad…

Dw, I’m very nice and caring about disabilities.

“You have yet to refute any of my points as to why “good traits that most people pick” should be an excuse for baseline or minor traits, despite this same logic applies to 90% of the classes . You only quote the most unimportant part of my post and rebuts NOTHING. ronpierce.2760 already pointed out the case for Necro, and I already pointed out the case for Ranger. There’re cases of Arcana and Water for Ele too. There’re cases for thief grabbing the new Deadly Art and Trickery too. There’re cases for Guardians to grab the Mediation and Virtues too. If all of them are so “mandatory”, then we may as well remove traits already and make them all baseline. Oh, if you don’t understand what I’m talking about, it means you really know so little about other classes and the balance, that you only live in your little Warrior world.”

Aomine.5012:

runeblade.7514:

Aomine.5012:

runeblade.7514:

Aomine.5012:

It’s already the best traitline Warrior can pick, and even better post specialization changes. Yet you want more…. Coming from the same person who want Fast Hand and Warrior Sprint Baseline…

It is so true that Greed is one of the seven greatest sins of human beings.

Its not the best traitline, it is the most necessary traitline because of a single trait. Every other trait in the line is trash.

Dodged March, Last Stance, Spiked Armor, Adrenaline Heal trashes huh.
As expected from the greediest class of the game.

Find me a viable build that uses Last Stand, and Spiked Armor. Last stand won’t be a viable trait anyways when specialization hit because Cleansing Ire competes with Cleansing Ire.

Adrenaline heal is minor regen. If Cleansing Ire weren’t there in master major, no one would take adrenal heal.

Dogged March is the better trait in the pile of trash traits. Plus it is adept and doesn’t conflict with cleansing ire. If Dogged March was Master, I would not use this trait. If it was Grandmaster, I might use it because the other GM traits are just bad.

If Cleansing Ire is suddenly moved over to Arms traits, warrior builds will no longer use the defense trait line ever again. If you think I’m wrong, make a viable pvp build that doesn’t use cleansing ire and has points in the defense line. Then get it peer reviewed in Metabattle or in this warrior subforum. Then you can become a warrior community hero that revolutionize warrior’s build.

Warrior’s logic:
Because a trait makes us OP, it should be baseline/minor because we’ll take it 100% time because of how OP it is.

Same logic can be applied to all classes. Lead the Wind makes LB OP and mandatory to any power ranger, so it should be baseline/minor.

Lead the wind is mandatory for only power rangers. That’s okay.

If Lead the Wind is mandatory to the ‘viable’ condi, bunker, power, cele, Spirit, or whatever, then I would agree with you that it isn’t okay. Deception Evasion is in every Mesmer build, I don’t think that’s okay that it is a GM trait.

CI isn’t a trait that make us OP, you are confused and ignorant. CI is a trait that make us viable. Let me shed you some history as a warrior player since beginning of the 3 day head start.

Warriors didn’t have a place in the PvP scene. Warriors were free-kills. It wasn’t until ANet added CI that warriors started popping up because it was the trait that existed.

Aomine.5012:

Choppy.4183:

You’ve made an argument? All I’ve seen is incoherent babble.

Having reading comprehension problem is really quite sad…

Dw, I’m very nice and caring about disabilities.

“You have yet to refute any of my points as to why “good traits that most people pick” should be an excuse for baseline or minor traits, despite this same logic applies to 90% of the classes . You only quote the most unimportant part of my post and rebuts NOTHING. ronpierce.2760 already pointed out the case for Necro, and I already pointed out the case for Ranger. There’re cases of Arcana and Water for Ele too. There’re cases for thief grabbing the new Deadly Art and Trickery too. There’re cases for Guardians to grab the Mediation and Virtues too. If all of them are so “mandatory”, then we may as well remove traits already and make them all baseline. Oh, if you don’t understand what I’m talking about, it means you really know so little about other classes and the balance, that you only live in your little Warrior world.”

Try going back and understanding the arguments before you comment on them.

SpookyPoo.8135:

Juba.8406:

---

(2) The Black Hole
Cleansing Ire

---

Cleansing Ire Gain adrenaline when hit. Remove a condition for every bar of adrenaline spent when you hit with a burst skill.

On June 25, 2013 two years ago, Warrior got reborn thanks to this trait, Every warrior took refuge in this trait after being for so long in the bottom of the barrel.

But still this trait is hurting Warrior’s build diversity so much only surpassed by Fast Hands.

Also its a Major trait, No one will pick the 2 other traits no matter what.

• A Must have trait, Forcing the defense line upon warriors.
• Its a Major Master trait, rendering the two neighboring traits useless.

So what we can do to improve things ?

well we can do one of the followings :

• (1) Make Cleansing Ire Baseline.
• (2) Move Cleansing Ire to Discipline trait line as a minor.
• (3) Make Embrace the Pain Baseline. (Gain adrenaline when hit)
• (4) Make Cleansing Ire a Minor in Defense trait line.

(1) crazy right ?
(2) Diversity ultimate solution ? keeping all the black hole traits in 1 line.
(3) with the coming changes to Mending and Brawler’s recovery we might just need the (Gain adrenaline when hit) aspect of CI as baseline, but still CI will get picked.
(4) if everything up there failed, then please at least make Cleansing Ire a Minor trait with this we can actually choose a trait in Master tier.

I will assume Anet took the worst case scenario which is (4) make CI a Minor trait.

These are fantastic ideas and I hope someone from Anet is paying attention here.

I like all of the above, though I do not think that “(2) Move Cleansing Ire to Discipline trait line as a minor” is necessary, as Discipline already has Brawler’s Recovery, and lumping all the must-haves into one line will hurt build diversity.

PS I nominate Juba for Forum Specialist: Warrior

Great comment and thanks for the nomination <3.

Agree that was kinda a silly idea but if that so you will be forced to one line which is Discipline better than being forced into two lines.

If we get Fast Hand as baseline then making CI as a minor is the better option.

Knighthonor.4061:

For defense line, I would really like something that improves skill 4 on Shield.

Also something that adds regen to Rampage or some other special effect.

Also faster cast time on burst skills would be nice as well.

---

Edit:

Shield Master- along with current effect, Shield 4 has larger range and gives 90 toughness.

Cull the Weak- along with current effect, Rampage grants might/Hammer Damage increased for 5 seconds after being hit by a crit.

Thick Skin- 40% chance to gain increased armor while struck by an attack while below 50% HP, and 100% while above 90%. Negates Defiant Stance.

I don’t think Shield needs any improvement, already fine and will get better next patch but you are right about the added toughness and makes sense.

Rampage as per coming changes is crazy already and hammer buff makes no sense since Merciless Hammer went to discipline, the change on Thick Skin looks interesting i suppose the proc will need a cooldown.

runeblade.7514:

Switch Armored Attack with Last Stand.

Last Stand + Rousing Resilience works very well with each other. I use it on my SW leech build. I get auto-toughness + stability proc at the same time.

Plus, Armored Attack would work well with Sundering mace if I want to use a offensive defense trait build.

But this means that every warrior building into Defense will pick Last Stand since it will compete with weaker traits in comparison “Sundering Mace” &“Defy Pain”, and we would have made another CI situation.

I think the New Last Stand has no place but a GM and Armored Attack needs to be brought down since it got nerfed.

BlackTruth.6813:

Juba.8406:

It seem my fellow Warriors don’t like reading Walls of text, well who does so guilty myself.

TLDR

• Cull the weak is now a minor.
• Thick Skin is merged with Desperate power and now is a major.
• Cleansing Ire is now a minor.
• Adept traits now spread out between all three tiers and some other traits redistributed.

check the attached image.

I will still not pick Reactive Armor over dogged march or Spiked Armor with that trait line :x

Strange, i thought you would be the 1st to like this change, do you feel its still lacking or inferior to neighboring traits “Dogged March” & “Spiked Armor” ? what do you suggest for this trait ?