(edited by Hell Avenger.7021)
More than half of a year, still no Balance
What kills me is how they’re apparently so terrified of giving warrior any meaningful buffs, as if it’s something that can never be reversed. They sit and they say, “Warrior will be OP!” Meanwhile, they just admitted that they’ve made necros OP with the last patch, and already have plans on fixing it. So why can’t they take a risk with warrior? So what if it’s OP for a couple of weeks – apparently that’s already okay for every other class.
What kills me is how they’re apparently so terrified of giving warrior any meaningful buffs, as if it’s something that can never be reversed. They sit and they say, “Warrior will be OP!” Meanwhile, they just admitted that they’ve made necros OP with the last patch, and already have plans on fixing it. So why can’t they take a risk with warrior? So what if it’s OP for a couple of weeks – apparently that’s already okay for every other class.
There seems to be different treatment for warrior balance and other classes’ balance.
Warrior balances feel like an afterthought
Warrior balances feel like an afterthought
The entire warrior class seems like it gets different treatment from the other classes.
For example, many warrior moves are crazy SLOW, with long cast times, obvious telegraphs, and are incredibly easy to dodge or interrupt. Sometimes my earthshakers take so long to cast and activate, my target has literally jogged out of the targeted area.
I fought a bunker mes, and he was able to mess around, cloning, going invis, and kiting FOUR PLAYERS for about 10 minutes before they gave up and went somewhere else.
Fought a bunker guardian and he was able to successfully run from briar to bay, again with FOUR people trying to kill him.
I made a bunker warrior the other night again…. and was having a hard time staying alive in ANY 2v1. A good necro was able to solo the crap outta me, in like 15 seconds.
1 thing that people are forgetting, some warriors animations and “moves are crazy SLOW, with long cast times” but that’s because if they land it, it hurts a lot more than any other class.
People are forgetting that warriors are the DPS kings of the game. people complain alot about the cast time of 100B or that it roots you to the ground, but they seem to forget how much damage this skill does.
Other skill is i hear people complaining alot is “Final trust” but people who complain is hard to land, also forget to mention that if they land it on anyone under 50% its a 1 shot skill with the same damage as Eviscerate.
The biggest problem with warriors, is not the class itself but the players on it.. they wanna be DPS beast like they are on PvE, expecting to go glass cannon and own. players just need to learn to spec better, warriors now have good condi clears, and easy acess to stability and CC, which is a direct counter to most meta builds. but people rather not spend those 20 points on Defense and then come on forums and QQ about how much warriors suck on PvP
(edited by google.3709)
1 thing that people are forgetting, some warriors animations and “moves are crazy SLOW, with long cast times” but that’s because if they land it, it hurts a lot more than any other class.
People are forgetting that warriors are the DPS kings of the game. people complain alot about the cast time of 100B or that it roots you to the ground, but they seem to forget how much damage this skill does.
Other skill is i hear people complaining alot is “Final trust” but people who complain is hard to land, also forget to mention that if they land it on anyone under 50% its a 1 shot skill with the same damage as Eviscerate.
The biggest problem with warriors, is not the class itself but the players on it.. they wanna be DPS beast like they are on PvE, expecting to go glass cannon and own. players just need to learn to spec better, warriors now have good condi clears, and easy acess to stability and CC, which is a direct counter to most meta builds. but people rather not spend those 20 points on Defense and then come on forums and QQ about how much warriors suck on PvP
Thanks for once again trying to discredit Warriors by claiming we are all incompetent GC 100b noobs that want to faceroll.
And no Final Thrust doesn’t do eviscerate damage, nor does it “1 shot” since you have to be below 50% hp for double damage and it does maybe 6k damage on a glass cannon. Nor is it comparable to say Thief or Mesmer’s burst damage which is basically instant or AoE while doing comparable, if not more damage. Warrior’s damage in sPvP isn’t too hot compared to what other classes can do.
but people rather not spend those 20 points on Defense and then come on forums and QQ about how much warriors suck on PvP
Yo. 30 Points into Defense right here, cause I like a tankier build.
So where’s the sustain that this 30 pt defense is supposed to provide? I get a few HP back every 3 seconds from adrenal health, IF I don’t use my defining class feature? Where’s the improved healing, damage avoidance, damage mitigation? WAIT, haha, I get 100 toughness when above 90% HP! GG I win!
Seriously dude, people who go full zerk warrior, do it because going hybid or bunker doesn’t provide any significant sustain or defense.
More importantly, how does my choice of build affect the skill and animation tmes?
Where in the defense tree does it say my earthshaker wont take 2 full seconds to finally cast and go off?
What trait is it that speeds up over-telegraphed and easily dodged moves, eh??
And what good is a high damage move that never hits? The only way to get 100b’s to land is to make a really gimmicky build who’s sole job is to set up for a stunned/immob 100b. Yeah that’s proves you’re a good player, pressing STUN, SWAP, #2.
The biggest problem with warriors, is not the class itself but the players on it..
While that is true sometimes, I would argue that we do have a gap in our weapons that needs addressing.
Right now we have:
Control/Defensive Weapons:
Hammer
Mace
Shield
Warhorn
Spike-Damage Weapons:
Greatsword
Axe
Rife
Hybrid Damage/Control Weapons:
Longbow
Sword
The problem really is with the Spike-Damage Weapons in that Axe and Rifle are not on par with Greatsword. Greatsword is a go to weapon because it synergizes really well with the Control Weapons. You can use the Burst of the Control Weapons to set up the high spike-damage of a Greatsword. This can not happen with Axe and Rifle due to their spike-damage being the actual Burst skill.
To fix this the current Burst skills of Axe and Rifle need to be swapped on to the actual skill bar.
EX:
Eviscerate should be switched with Cyclone Axe, leave the Eviscerate at a 10 second cooldown but lower its damage by 25% and have a stipulation that it does 25% extra damage to Disabled Foes. Cyclone Axe should have its damage increased slightly and give 5-10-15 stacks of vulnerability.
Kill Shot should be switched with Aimed Shot, nothing should be changed with Kill Shot since it really can only be used at a very few opportune times since the animation is long and obvious. Aimed Shot should cripple for 5-10-15 seconds + a blind.
Moving the Burst skills of Axe and Rifle down will allow us more playable combos between our weapon and open up new builds for PvP.
Grumpy Jugo
[AZRG]
Dragonbrand
[AZRG]
Dragonbrand
(edited by aathomas.4638)
This just in: builds that concentrate on setting up bursts are gimmicky. See: Every burst build that exists. I suppose that means bunker builds that spam boons/prot/blocks/invulns aren’t gimmicky.
Also, landing a Stun that leads into 100B against players with the appropriate Stability/stun break counters is more than STUN, SWAP, #2. From what I’m gathering, you claim it’s impossible to land because of telegraphing, but landing it means you’re no-skill gimmick, because it’s 3 easy buttons.
Thus continues the cycle of Support Circle warrior threads.
Also, Earthshaker is a 3/4 second cast. Not 2 seconds.
Further, this exact thread probably exists for Warriors in PvE, only it’s the other end of the spectrum, because it’s a godly class.
queue the “game is balanced around PvP” robble robble
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
1 thing that people are forgetting, some warriors animations and “moves are crazy SLOW, with long cast times” but that’s because if they land it, it hurts a lot more than any other class.
People are forgetting that warriors are the DPS kings of the game. people complain alot about the cast time of 100B or that it roots you to the ground, but they seem to forget how much damage this skill does.
Other skill is i hear people complaining alot is “Final trust” but people who complain is hard to land, also forget to mention that if they land it on anyone under 50% its a 1 shot skill with the same damage as Eviscerate.
The biggest problem with warriors, is not the class itself but the players on it.. they wanna be DPS beast like they are on PvE, expecting to go glass cannon and own. players just need to learn to spec better, warriors now have good condi clears, and easy acess to stability and CC, which is a direct counter to most meta builds. but people rather not spend those 20 points on Defense and then come on forums and QQ about how much warriors suck on PvP
Its amazing how the “toot my own horn” crowd comes out to troll as well.
Yes, good players can do well playing a warrior, but then again they would do even better on another class is reality.
given equal player skills, the warrior needs help currently is issue. Right now its kind of a kick given how kittene has to work to get average to good results, but its also pretty easy to realize not everyone wants that kinda play.
The biggest problem with warriors, is not the class itself but the players on it.. they wanna be DPS beast like they are on PvE, expecting to go glass cannon and own. players just need to learn to spec better, warriors now have good condi clears, and easy acess to stability and CC, which is a direct counter to most meta builds. but people rather not spend those 20 points on Defense and then come on forums and QQ about how much warriors suck on PvP
How long did it take you to come up with that fallacy?
I main warr and like you guys im kitten ed with the current state of the warrior. but maybe we are just making a big mistake. (and i say this because i cant see any other option than just remake the warr.) Maybe we are trying to make warriors fit in the current meta instead of just making one with him.
oook we suk as bunkers, we suk as dps, we melt under conditions, we (usually) have to be on melee range, half of our utilities suk.
maybe changing the meta from the current mass conditions to mobility. we maybe could be the ones stopping players from one point to another while our team cap.
i dont know mixed feelings here, kitten ed with the state of the warrs kitten ed with the current mass condi meta.
Funny thing is they mentioned “power creep,” and if you ever look at a thief… they are the definition of that phrase. Blinds now are so agonizing, stupid burst, and even crazier survival/baits. I find it humorous but sad at the same time.
1 thing that people are forgetting, some warriors animations and “moves are crazy SLOW, with long cast times” but that’s because if they land it, it hurts a lot more than any other class.
People are forgetting that warriors are the DPS kings of the game. people complain alot about the cast time of 100B or that it roots you to the ground, but they seem to forget how much damage this skill does.
Other skill is i hear people complaining alot is “Final trust” but people who complain is hard to land, also forget to mention that if they land it on anyone under 50% its a 1 shot skill with the same damage as Eviscerate.
The biggest problem with warriors, is not the class itself but the players on it.. they wanna be DPS beast like they are on PvE, expecting to go glass cannon and own. players just need to learn to spec better, warriors now have good condi clears, and easy acess to stability and CC, which is a direct counter to most meta builds. but people rather not spend those 20 points on Defense and then come on forums and QQ about how much warriors suck on PvP
Thanks for once again trying to discredit Warriors by claiming we are all incompetent GC 100b noobs that want to faceroll.
And no Final Thrust doesn’t do eviscerate damage, nor does it “1 shot” since you have to be below 50% hp for double damage and it does maybe 6k damage on a glass cannon. Nor is it comparable to say Thief or Mesmer’s burst damage which is basically instant or AoE while doing comparable, if not more damage. Warrior’s damage in sPvP isn’t too hot compared to what other classes can do.
The damage of the skill, according to tool tip, is the same as a 3 bar eviscerate if the target is under 50%.
Also, MAYBE 6k on a glass cannon? You’re exaggerating to try to make a point, I know because I have had Final Thrust hit thieves for 8.8k. Over 7k is not uncommon.
Fragg – Engineer | Lil Zek – Warrior PVP R43
[DA] Decisive Actions – Jade Quarry
[DA] Decisive Actions – Jade Quarry
The damage of the skill, according to tool tip, is the same as a 3 bar eviscerate if the target is under 50%.
Also, MAYBE 6k on a glass cannon? You’re exaggerating to try to make a point, I know because I have had Final Thrust hit thieves for 8.8k. Over 7k is not uncommon.
Exaggerating to make a point appears to be the M.O. of this thread thus far. At least the first set of posts.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Uncleansable/inescapable knockdown trait or passive for the class. Or a boon removal trait removing protection, stability first.
This just in: builds that concentrate on setting up bursts are gimmicky. See: Every burst build that exists. I suppose that means bunker builds that spam boons/prot/blocks/invulns aren’t gimmicky.
Hey if you want to play a one-trick-pony, that’s on you. But it’s not a counter argument to there being other viable builds that dont center around STUN-SWAP-LOL100B. My argument is that we’re being pigeon holed into gimmicky builds cause nothing else but gimmick and zerker builds are effective.
Also, landing a Stun that leads into 100B against players with the appropriate Stability/stun break counters is more than STUN, SWAP, #2. From what I’m gathering, you claim it’s impossible to land because of telegraphing, but landing it means you’re no-skill gimmick, because it’s 3 easy buttons.
You’re right. Sometimes I have to bulls or stun them to make them use their stunbreaker/stab. There is some complexity but compare a warriors skill-cap to the skill-cap of say an elementalist, or a mesmer.
I’m not claiming to be a great player, or even a good player. But the same amount of player skill and effort goes further on almost any other class (in PvP).
Also: I didn’t say EVERY move was long and telegraphed. Some are solid, quick and usable. But there are just as many slow buggy telegraphed moves. Compared Sword #2 Savage Leap to GS #5 Rush, for example. Savage Leap (in my experience) is fairly solid and reliable. If an opponent dodges Savage, it was either cause they’re lucky, or good. Rush on the other hand, leaves me jogging in place (bug), misses entirely (bug), or can be seen coming a mile away and easily dodged (telegraph).
Also, Earthshaker is a 3/4 second cast. Not 2 seconds.
Exactly. That’s why it’s so frustrating when it takes a full 2 seconds to finally go off. There’s the half a second between when you press the move and when it starts to actually cast, 3/4 second cast time, then a confounding “aftercast” delay before the move actually activates, leaps you to your target spot, and performs the stun.
Further, this exact thread probably exists for Warriors in PvE, only it’s the other end of the spectrum, because it’s a godly class.
queue the “game is balanced around PvP” robble robble
You are right that PvE Warriors need no urgent help. Yeah, PvE sustain sorta sucks but… it’s not really a glaring issue. Zerker builds can “skill-dodge” anything truly dangerous while facerolling their way to mad DPS. You dont even need to press much besides GS #2 half the time. And you dont potentially lose a fight because your #5 Rush bugged out on you yet again.
PvP is where the telegraphs, slow cast times, buggy abilities, and lack of sustain really hits hard.
More importantly, fixing these PvP centric issues will not impact PvE in any meaningful sense.
So PvE warriors get a bit more sustain when specced defense for it? Yay. They’re all zerker builds in PvE anyway. And more responsive abilities that work every time, and dont have huge obvious windups? So what, the NPCs stay put for it either way.
Guardians getting more condition clear love, maybe more damage, no changes.
Warriors getting more HP… Lawlz
Hero {} Roleplayer {} Friend {} Professional Princess Saver
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
1 thing that people are forgetting, some warriors animations and “moves are crazy SLOW, with long cast times” but that’s because if they land it, it hurts a lot more than any other class.
People are forgetting that warriors are the DPS kings of the game. people complain alot about the cast time of 100B or that it roots you to the ground, but they seem to forget how much damage this skill does.
Other skill is i hear people complaining alot is “Final trust” but people who complain is hard to land, also forget to mention that if they land it on anyone under 50% its a 1 shot skill with the same damage as Eviscerate.
The biggest problem with warriors, is not the class itself but the players on it.. they wanna be DPS beast like they are on PvE, expecting to go glass cannon and own. players just need to learn to spec better, warriors now have good condi clears, and easy acess to stability and CC, which is a direct counter to most meta builds. but people rather not spend those 20 points on Defense and then come on forums and QQ about how much warriors suck on PvP
Thanks for once again trying to discredit Warriors by claiming we are all incompetent GC 100b noobs that want to faceroll.
And no Final Thrust doesn’t do eviscerate damage, nor does it “1 shot” since you have to be below 50% hp for double damage and it does maybe 6k damage on a glass cannon. Nor is it comparable to say Thief or Mesmer’s burst damage which is basically instant or AoE while doing comparable, if not more damage. Warrior’s damage in sPvP isn’t too hot compared to what other classes can do.
The damage of the skill, according to tool tip, is the same as a 3 bar eviscerate if the target is under 50%.
Also, MAYBE 6k on a glass cannon? You’re exaggerating to try to make a point, I know because I have had Final Thrust hit thieves for 8.8k. Over 7k is not uncommon.
Sorry, I’ve never run a full glass cannon build so that probably skewed my perception of it’s damage a bit.
Also, MAYBE 6k on a glass cannon? You’re exaggerating to try to make a point, I know because I have had Final Thrust hit thieves for 8.8k. Over 7k is not uncommon.
Let’s see… we’ve got really high damage, really obvious telegraph, really long cast, and really long cooldown.
To me, this sounds like the sort of move that’s perfect for killing new and unsuspecting players… and easily avoided by better players and pros
New Player “OMG Final Thrust, Dead, GG.”
Pro Player “LOL Final Thrust, Dodge, GG.”
Remember how OP Bulls/100b was? Even after quickness was nerfed? Then the meta evolved, and 100b became “lulz.”
I don’t remember how OP it was because I know what stun breaks are.
Anet designers should really find a date to seriously try out warriors themselves, whats with most of the utility skills which players dont even bother picking (kick lol) and stances that last shorter then necro’s spectral skills.
They seriously need to think logically for once.
“@Jzaku.9765”
Check the tool tips or simply test them, damage from “Eviscerate” and “Final Thrust” are the same (at least at the 50%) and sure, maybe i wasnt specific enough. if you land thakittens a 1 shot finisher.
“@Dand.8231”
You can go mace/shield & GS with “Mending”, “Signet of Stamina”, “lyssa Runes” and “Cleansing Ire” for reliable and consistent condi removal, then Soilders Amulet with berserker/rampagers jewl with “Unsuspecting Foe”. the rest you can play around with.
i dunno if its a design flaw or simple a misunderstanding but other than full bunker, no else is really able to stand in the middle of fights while taking all the damage that is being put out, specially DPS classes. and even tho warrior is suppose to be fighting on the front lines, unlike guardians. warrior have lots of mobility skills which allow for easy engage/disengage which should give people a clue.. great warriors don’t charge mindlessly into a fight thinking their are gods, but rather pick out their target and rip them appart..
right now warriors are usually the first target because of their popularity. they keep “bragging” how bad they are, and how easy they go down to all other classes, making people think of them as an easy target. and it doesnt help that except top warriors, no other war will even try to disengage. they will just sit there, take the damage and die in place.
for the people reading this, make something with what i just gave you. you get it right, you can win most fights against necros and other meta classes.
stances need a buff seriously, long cd for short duration is kinda useless. we will just be running or sitting duck after that 4-5 secs and after burning mending to remove conditions + heal.
oh yea…
“Where in the defense tree does it say my earthshaker wont take 2 full seconds to finally cast and go off?”
you’re ignoring the reward if you actually get it off… unless you’re expecting an unpredictable 3s+ AoE stun on a 10s CD to be balance…
"
“proves you’re a good player, pressing STUN, SWAP, #2.”
unless things have changed in the past 30 mins, I think thats how every class works, following a rotation. or when was a last time a mesmer didn’t immobilize/stunned before he shatter? or ele updraft before a burning speed. even thief have a rotation…. press 2,3,3,3,2,2,3,3, stomp
you’re ignoring the reward if you actually get it off… unless you’re expecting an unpredictable 3s+ AoE stun on a 10s CD to be balance…
If it was going to be such a long cast and aftercast, before actually going off, it should at least reflect that in the tooltip. If you consider it’s current somewhat “laggy” and unresponsive state to be its intended state, then the tooltip should be updated. I personally feel it’s the other way around, not unlike staggering blow.
unless things have changed in the past 30 mins, I think thats how every class works, following a rotation. or when was a last time a mesmer didn’t immobilize/stunned before he shatter? or ele updraft before a burning speed. even thief have a rotation…. press 2,3,3,3,2,2,3,3, stomp
lol. I’m not even saying some of our gimmick builds are bad. I’m just saying that if you stray from the gimmick builds, you end up being severely underpowered and effectively worthless. Whereas other classes have more freedom to stray from “pro” builds and still remain semi viable.
I’m also saying warrior sustain flat out sucks. It’s evident in both PvE as well as PvP. It doesn’t matter much in PvE, as I’ve stated, but it’s still there. Plenty of times I have played a fairly balanced PvE melee/tanky warrior (strength/defense) but the defense portion brings so little as far as actual ongoing defense or survivability, it makes me want to just drop it and go back to pure zerker build. I’d die only a little faster, but I’d kill the NPCs so much quicker I’d actually have better survival.
I dont think zerker warriors should get epic sustain just by being warriors. I think that they should get it by speccing for it. Tactics has some sustain in it, and shout healing isnt bad, but again it requires an extremely gimmicky build to be effective, IE 3 shouts and full clerics gear, and most likely 30 in defense as well.
There’s no way to really make a balanced hybrid build, to spec for SOME sustain. You’re either full sustain by going 30 tactics/defense and running 3 shouts, or you have the baseline warrior sustain which isn’t very potent.
I feel the defense tree should provide some moderate sustain. Adrenal health does not really count in it’s current form, either. It’s mechanically fairly weak, and I know others disagree, but personally I consider the “sit on your adrenaline instead of using your class mechanic” is poor design to begin with.
EDIT: I’m not trying to QQ mindlessly. I just want to see warriors “slow/unresponsive” skills brought up to par, and see warrior sustain be brought up.
(edited by Dand.8231)
warrior have lots of mobility skills which allow for easy engage/disengage which should give people a clue.
If you trait mobile strikes there is 2 with GS, 1 with Sword and 1 with Hammer (but only if you have adrenaline).
great warriors don’t charge mindlessly into a fight thinking their are gods, but rather pick out their target and rip them appart..
Are you a great warrior??
right now warriors are usually the first target because of their popularity. they keep “bragging” how bad they are, and how easy they go down to all other classes, making people think of them as an easy target. and it doesnt help that except top warriors, no other war will even try to disengage. they will just sit there, take the damage and die in place.
So if some other profession “brag how bad they are” more then warrior, they will become first target?
or
Do ppl decide first target according to forum whine??
for the people reading this, make something with what i just gave you. you get it right, you can win most fights against necros and other meta classes.
You just gave lots of crap.
Prove your words, point at any high ranked tournament where we can see your team and how great warrior you are…
godkitten this google guy sucks
ANet seriously, and you want to have a competitive scene and a league? Just one class, ONE, and still no balanced.
People cannot be caught dead with a warrior in their team in TPVP, and you think this is ok?
Get you act together!
We are not asking to be OP, we just want to have an average chance of winning.
Won’t happen until they completely separate pvp/pve skills. It sucks, but that’s just how it is. If they give warriors the tools they need for pvp they will be stupidly broken in pve. I’m no fan of balancing pvp for the sake of pve, though the opposite is also true. The skills should have been split before launch.
Warriors are in a far better place after the patch. As in most games after a buff, it takes the masses a little while to figure it out.
In regards to end game pvp it is always the same in most games. People gravitate to the top 3 classes at that time. The other classes complain they aren’t balanced. One of the lower classes gets a buff and knocks one of the top 3 out. Rinse/repeat. Min/maxers always produce this type of behaviour.
When someone uses the word ‘Meta’, a kitten dies. Don’t do it.
ANet seriously, and you want to have a competitive scene and a league? Just one class, ONE, and still no balanced.
People cannot be caught dead with a warrior in their team in TPVP, and you think this is ok?
Get you act together!
We are not asking to be OP, we just want to have an average chance of winning.
Won’t happen until they completely separate pvp/pve skills. It sucks, but that’s just how it is. If they give warriors the tools they need for pvp they will be stupidly broken in pve. I’m no fan of balancing pvp for the sake of pve, though the opposite is also true. The skills should have been split before launch.
This. So long as they keep PvE and PvP stuff the same, Warriors have to remain the bottom of the barrel in PvP because they are already WAY above everyone else in PvE.
Either that, or the class needs a complete rework and have their damage stripped in favor of improvements elsewhere.
And beyond that, sPvP is a very tiny subset community of players in comparison to the rest of the game. A tiny fraction having issues with their warriors doesn’t really speak loudly enough for Anet to make them even more required for the masses.