Guild Wars 2

Example Warrior Skill Cap vs. Other Classes: http://imgur.com/sgDeBnP

It’s not a secret that many, many players feel warriors deserve a nerf, but I’m not convinced they want it for the right reasons. I threw together a quick graph (it’s quite rough and exists just to illustrate a simple point — don’t read too much into the numbers) that I believe shows the main problem with warriors: it’s hard to tell “bad” warriors from “good” warriors, and “good” warriors are often at a disadvantage.

“Bad” and “Average” players can hop on a warrior and do quite well, they’ll generally destroy other classes of the same skill level (not always, but I believe this is a large point of the anti-warrior sentiment); however, “good” warriors are generally at a disadvantage versus equally skilled players on other classes, and this is a point that’s rarely addressed.

It’s frustrating, because I can appreciate that the majority of players are frustrated by warriors, but I’m not sure we should be balancing a class around the lowest common denominator. Warriors are quick to start, but I believe the skill cap of the class is among the lowest in the game.

I see your point and absolutely agree with you, I play since beta almost only as warrior and only recently when I started mesmer and necro I discovered that there is so much more field for improving my skills than there ever was when I played warrior.

I agree with everything except for this:

“however, “good” warriors are generally at a disadvantage versus equally skilled players on other classes, and this is a point that’s rarely addressed.”

You still see warriors at the highest level of tPvP (where the “good” warriors are) and I can tell you they’re still pretty dominant. The gap isn’t as big but they’re definitely not at a disadvantage.

I’ve talked to a lot of good players/watched their streams and all of them agreed that warriors are still too strong, even at their level of play which basically means there is no disadvantage.

A lower skill ceiling doesn’t necessarily mean you’re at a disadvantage, only that it takes less skill to play the profession at the highest level.

Anyway, I’m looking forward to the next patch and hope they nerf the right things and/or increase the skill ceiling.

I guess the question is are we being balanced around WvW roaming/dueling meta or the sPvP meta — they function totally differently. The warrior is an a much better place in its functional pvp role then it is within Obsidian Sanctum fights.

I’d be thrilled if the skill ceiling went up, but I’m not sure we’d see anything that extreme until an expansion was released. An alternative adrenaline skill, and an overhaul of sustain/adrenaline?

Edit: I also recall that the warrior buffs were put in place to address the condi-heavy meta, but within WvW/OS all of the warriors toughest fights are against condi-using opponents PU, condi nades, D/P etc.)

@Jett:

I think this is why the Signet-CI nerf comes. It makes the facetanking “bad” warrior weaker against a “bad other”. On the “good” level the nerf has less impact where dodge and positioning is everything.

This is why I hate warriors, I can beat them but when I loose it isn’t because they out played me it is because I make one or 2 mistakes. On the other hand they can often just eat a churning earth to the face and barely dent their health. It is like fighting a PVE champ, tons of health, fairly avoidable attacks, but if you get hit you die fast. I just can’t figure out why people would want to play a class like that.

Well in regards to eating a heavy attack and enduring it, that’s often because the warrior is forced by class mechanics into a position where there is no choice. Other classes have blinds, protection, frequent vigor access and various teleports on medium to short cooldowns to mitigate damage. A warrior isn’t without it’s own counters but they tend to be powerful burst counters with fairly long gaps between availability. Other than that a Warrior just has to rely on a large health pool, heavy regeneration and their heavy armour.

With regards to the damage output of a warrior. Warrior attacks are far and away the most telegraphed attacks in the game, reliant on either setup attacks (also pretty heavily telegraphed) or pressuring an enemy into a mistake. So you can basically see a Warrior’s damage output from a pvp standpoint is almost entirely up to their opponent.

Short version – If you want warrior mitigation and damage toned down you are going to have to compensate with more frequent access to active mitigation and an attack pattern that can’t be read by a blind man.

Blackhat.4016:

I agree with everything except for this:

“however, “good” warriors are generally at a disadvantage versus equally skilled players on other classes, and this is a point that’s rarely addressed.”

You still see warriors at the highest level of tPvP (where the “good” warriors are) and I can tell you they’re still pretty dominant. The gap isn’t as big but they’re definitely not at a disadvantage.

I’ve talked to a lot of good players/watched their streams and all of them agreed that warriors are still too strong, even at their level of play which basically means there is no disadvantage.

A lower skill ceiling doesn’t necessarily mean you’re at a disadvantage, only that it takes less skill to play the profession at the highest level.

Anyway, I’m looking forward to the next patch and hope they nerf the right things and/or increase the skill ceiling.

To add to this, most of the top PvP teams even use 2 warriors (out of 5 total players).
I couldn’t agree more with the OP with regards to balancing to the lowest common denominator, but I really don’t think warriors are at a disadvantage at high levels of PvP. On the contrary even, they’re arguably still one of the strongest classes at that level (the most used class in any case).

BolshoiBooze.3406:

Blackhat.4016:

I agree with everything except for this:

“however, “good” warriors are generally at a disadvantage versus equally skilled players on other classes, and this is a point that’s rarely addressed.”

You still see warriors at the highest level of tPvP (where the “good” warriors are) and I can tell you they’re still pretty dominant. The gap isn’t as big but they’re definitely not at a disadvantage.

I’ve talked to a lot of good players/watched their streams and all of them agreed that warriors are still too strong, even at their level of play which basically means there is no disadvantage.

A lower skill ceiling doesn’t necessarily mean you’re at a disadvantage, only that it takes less skill to play the profession at the highest level.

Anyway, I’m looking forward to the next patch and hope they nerf the right things and/or increase the skill ceiling.

To add to this, most of the top PvP teams even use 2 warriors (out of 5 total players).
I couldn’t agree more with the OP with regards to balancing to the lowest common denominator, but I really don’t think warriors are at a disadvantage at high levels of PvP. On the contrary even, they’re arguably still one of the strongest classes at that level (the most used class in any case).

I can’t speak to the efficiency of warriors in tpvp as I predominately play WvW and duel — are the top tpvp variants running bow?

A good way to increase the skill-ceiling would be to take the SMITE/Wildstar route (sadly I dislike Hi-Res so i don’t play SMITE, but I do know about some of the mechanics) and make more attacks “skill shots” as opposed to just locking on and pressing a button. Now certain weapon sets don’t really allow for it but I can think of a few skills that would benefit. This doesn’t just apply to Warriors, I think every class can benefit from this approach.

1. Bladetrail – make it so you aim where it goes and increase it’s damage as a result.

2. Rush – Again, make it so you aim where you want to go but make it activate a AoE attack when you connect with someone.

3. Longbow in general – Let us aim everything but allow for Duel shot to have a larger margin of error than say Pin Down.

4. Rifle – Same thing, it feels much more satisfying to hit something you aimed well rather then just hitting tab and a button.

5. Throw Axe/Impale/Bolas – The current power of impale would be much more acceptable to many players if landing it was a bit more challenging. Throw Axe is pretty boring atm and could use something…more. Bolas is starting to kind of grow on me but I think I would rather have some sort of Scorpion-style chain attack that Immobilizes for a shorter duration than it currently does but gives you the option to pull them.

I know changes like these are VERY unlikely to happen but I think it would allow Warrior to remain that tough bruiser it is now but would allow for good players to excel by consistently landing skill shots. It’s a shame Wildstar’s aesthetic and general philosophy don’t interest me because their focus on skill shots goes beyond GW2 but maybe if it’s successful maybe ANET will consider expanding on what we already have. Also, another benefit of skills like these is that it would hopefully make things more consistent. Skills like Rush miss so frequently it’s good for little else then running away.

you cant compare a warrior in tPvP because generally they are hambow tanky damage dealers or full bunkers. both of these builds ONLY WORK on points therefore in WvW dueling and skirmishes they lose their 2 gimmicky equalizers

heres a high skill cap for you, 20 0 20 0 30 gs/lb zerker, bullcharge frenzy balanced stance

one of the few skill required balanced builds, too bad, op condition spamming necro or any thing else op destroy it, tho you can still beat them if you are good at dodging all their insta casts and infinite cc’s