Off-hand axe updated, still not a useful OH

Off-hand axe updated, still not a useful OH

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Posted by: Kalendraf.9521

Kalendraf.9521

From the 10/18 patch notes for warrior:

Dual Strike: Increased damage by 34%.
Whirling Axe: While channeling this skill, you move 50% faster.

With off-hand Axe being pretty much a no-show in current meta builds, it’s understandable that ANet is trying to improve it, but even with these changes, OH Axe still seems weak. The fury from Dual Strike tends to be unnecessary, meaning that this skill is basically just another attack skill, but using it breaks the auto-attack chain, likely leading to a dps loss. Meanwhile, the whirling axe is a nice tagging skill in certain PvE combat scenarios, but the 50% speed boost seems like a non-factor where the foes often tend to be stationary or slow-moving. The other off-hands seem to offer superior utility for the various formats, and these changes to axe don’t seem to address that.

HoD – [CV] Charter Vanguard

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Posted by: HatSimulator.9362

HatSimulator.9362

dual strike should stack like 5 might or idk give superspeed or something

Gates of Madness [DUI]
Main Warrior | Every other class at 80
I only play WvW

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Posted by: Emissary.3792

Emissary.3792

Kinda curious about this. Anecdotally, I tried the 5 skill and it seemed to do more dps than hundred blades for me (ignoring the overall loss from GS might). Am I on crack?

That aside, the 50% movement boost seems like a big push to make it viable in pvp/wvw as a chasing skill. Could be interesting to try out – and with the big damage, you could probably run sword mainhand and do something like leap → whirl instead of the standard shield bash → eviscerate. That would give you a lot of extra mobility (sword leap and 50% movespeed on whirl) at the cost of a 3s block/reflect.

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Posted by: Emissary.3792

Emissary.3792

I had a chance to try this in wvw today. It’s in a semi-viable state right now, had some fun fights. The major issue is the lack of any kind of ranged defense. These are the matchups that give me the most problems:
1) Any fight with more than 1 ranged enemy, which is most fights
2) DH and Rev, due to kitability and lack of projectile defense

I think the one thing missing to make it competitive against axe/shield is to have projectile defense on spin – whether it destroys projectiles or reflects them, I don’t care (though obviously reflect would be nicer).

A couple other nice-to-haves:
- Superspeed on spin – the current 50% is nice, but ultimately doesn’t help ‘catch up’ to most targets as you’re hardcapped at normal swiftness speed. This would help mitigate the ‘kitability’ issue, though this is a distant 2nd priority to getting projectile defense.
- Longer range on axe 4, or some kind of charge animation similar to shield 4. Again, to help with the kitability issue, but much lower priority than projectile defense.

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

evade frame on the spin? Or would that be to much?

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

Evade, reflect, or projectile destruction would all make Whirling Axe an incredibly overpowered version of Whirling Defense.

Server: Devona’s Rest

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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

Evade, reflect, or projectile destruction would all make Whirling Axe an incredibly overpowered version of Whirling Defense.

You mean like when thief steals from a warri and is able to use this overpowered version of whirl axe.. ?

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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

Evade, reflect, or projectile destruction would all make Whirling Axe an incredibly overpowered version of Whirling Defense.

You mean like when thief steals from a warri and is able to use this overpowered version of whirl axe.. ?

Not sure if this is a legit comparison or a complaint. Steal is a profession mechanic, it should be OP compared to a normal weapon skill.

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

Not sure if this is a legit comparison or a complaint. Steal is a profession mechanic, it should be OP compared to a normal weapon skill.

That’s a pretty poor way of looking at it

Fishsticks

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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

Evade, reflect, or projectile destruction would all make Whirling Axe an incredibly overpowered version of Whirling Defense.

You mean like when thief steals from a warri and is able to use this overpowered version of whirl axe.. ?

Not sure if this is a legit comparison or a complaint. Steal is a profession mechanic, it should be OP compared to a normal weapon skill.

It’s not a complaint though,just stating it as it is.Was actually always wondering why it is that their steal is better than our actual axe 5.

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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

Evade, reflect, or projectile destruction would all make Whirling Axe an incredibly overpowered version of Whirling Defense.

You mean like when thief steals from a warri and is able to use this overpowered version of whirl axe.. ?

Not sure if this is a legit comparison or a complaint. Steal is a profession mechanic, it should be OP compared to a normal weapon skill.

It’s not a complaint though,just stating it as it is.Was actually always wondering why it is that their steal is better than our actual axe 5.

I’d say it’s because thieves need the reflect to not die while using the skill, I usually combine it with Pistol 5 because otherwise I get destroyed. Channeled skills don’t work for glassy professions with no aegis, few stunbreaks and poor condi cleanse. As to why Axe 5 doesn’t reflect, I won’t pretend to know the thought process there.

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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

To add on to what I was saying earlier, if a Thief uses the combo I mentioned, you can just back away and he/she won’t be able to hurt you. You might get hit by one blinding bolt, that’s it. So many people will try to CC or double CC me and it’s just sad to watch while I do 6k crit damage to them.

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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

To add on to what I was saying earlier, if a Thief uses the combo I mentioned, you can just back away and he/she won’t be able to hurt you. You might get hit by one blinding bolt, that’s it. So many people will try to CC or double CC me and it’s just sad to watch while I do 6k crit damage to them.

I’m not saying i have issues with thieves using it.My point was actually,that axe 5 need to be buffed similar to the thief steal.

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Posted by: KhainPride.3987

KhainPride.3987

warrior is bad dont play it

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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

To add on to what I was saying earlier, if a Thief uses the combo I mentioned, you can just back away and he/she won’t be able to hurt you. You might get hit by one blinding bolt, that’s it. So many people will try to CC or double CC me and it’s just sad to watch while I do 6k crit damage to them.

I’m not saying i have issues with thieves using it.My point was actually,that axe 5 need to be buffed similar to the thief steal.

I’m gonna have to disagree, warrs don’t need the reflect to use it effectively. This is devastating in a node fight inside a combo field, a thief can’t use it that way because they’ll get destroyed immediately by any necro or ele’s aoe attacks, and they don’t have nice things like heavy armor, OP passive healing, and resistance to offset the incoming damage. Not that thieves should, but by virtue of the class they already can’t use the skill as effectively as a warr can, which is why they have the reflect. I really don’t see why we need this weapon skill to get even more special effects, it’s already a channeled skill where you can actually move, and now you have +movement speed. If you use Dual Strike right before, with a little luck you’ll be doing a ton of crit AoE damage.

That being said, I would support buffing the speed increase up to Superspeed levels, warrs don’t have enough chase abilities and it’s unfair for people to just be able to walk away from a losing fight against a warr b/c they have swiftness. Also it’s a pretty cool way to kill someone.

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Posted by: Brent.1580

Brent.1580

I like the improvements somewhat…. i still think it needs some more flavor. Offhand axe is all about melee and damage, i think it could use something that helps keep you in melee range.

skill 4: still the same dual chop with good damage that provides some fury… but it has a 600 range. The axe and main hand lash out with chains attached and then pull you to the target to keep you in melee range.

skill 5: 50%…. eh, just give it superspeed for the duration instead of 50%. No reflect necessary.

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Posted by: EphemeralWallaby.7643

EphemeralWallaby.7643

You spin so fast you suck in your enemies… give axe 5 a pull.

(actually I’m fine with axe 5 as-is, I just like the above idea from a visual standpoint)

~EW

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

dual strike should stack like 5 might or idk give superspeed or something

Because getting 2 stacks of fury isn’t enough?

My main complaint is that Axe offhand seems like more of the same Axe mainhand … some damage, a few minor but helpful effects.

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Posted by: emkelly.2371

emkelly.2371

Personally the only time i have found Axe 5 useful was with torch on swap. Drop the Feild, swap, Axe 5. In that scenario its extremely fun to play around with.

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Posted by: Coldtart.4785

Coldtart.4785

I don’t see how a pure dps offhand will ever be useful for warrior when it can already get a pure dps mainhand axe and then get defence and utility on their offhand.

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Posted by: Kalendraf.9521

Kalendraf.9521

I don’t see how a pure dps offhand will ever be useful for warrior when it can already get a pure dps mainhand axe and then get defence and utility on their offhand.

This is exactly why I think OH Axe needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new set of skills that can serve a need for the class.

HoD – [CV] Charter Vanguard

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Posted by: EphemeralWallaby.7643

EphemeralWallaby.7643

I don’t see how a pure dps offhand will ever be useful for warrior when it can already get a pure dps mainhand axe and then get defence and utility on their offhand.

This is exactly why I think OH Axe needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new set of skills that can serve a need for the class.

Except with a dps offhand axe, you can choose a defense/utility mainhand like the mace.

options are options

~EW

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Posted by: Artaz.3819

Artaz.3819

Offhand Axe moves another step closer to Ranger’s offhand Axe but still underperforms as a unique purpose …

Axe 4 damage was buffed because offhand Torch 4 was so much better, better range, more damage, same cleave 3 targets pre-update (3s base cooldown difference).

The movement speed increase on Axe offhand 5 was meant to be a ~3s pseudo superspeed effect for gap closing. Ultimately, the problem is that the radius of the Axe 5 melee attack is it is too small and be should changed to radius 180 to match offhand torch or torch radius should be nerfed. (ducks and covers)

Dual Strike should have evade frames (or block) of .75s or so and then remove the cleave (3 targets) component. With a 12s cooldown this would be huge and gives it a specific purpose more unique than torch 4.

TL;DR The problem is offhand axe is competing with offhand torch for basically the same role (AoE offensive pressure) and offhand torch is so much better because mobile fire field plus condition cleanse.

(edited by Artaz.3819)

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Posted by: Lucentfir.7430

Lucentfir.7430

I’ve found it works alright with Sword main hand, though since it’s full offense weapon set, it’s risky, and ranged pressure can is sorta a problem for it. Dual Strike is a rather nice burst skill, free fury and I’ve seen it hit over 3k on both strikes don’t think it needs evade frames, whirling axe though needs projectile destruction and it’ll be perfect. if you were designing it for PVE though instead of just in general, you could have each hit of it either proc split second quarter second dazes or slow for breakbars. As for the movement speed thing, bumping it up to 75% movement speed will make it a much more reliable chasing/sticky ability or making each hit apply a short duration cripple could work too.

Reth Grimrazor – Charr Guardian – [GWB]Grim Warband – Tarnished Coast
Redgen Furyblaze – Charr Guardian – [SHD]Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast
Lerious Warhowl – Charr Warrior – [SHD] Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast

(edited by Lucentfir.7430)

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Posted by: Coldtart.4785

Coldtart.4785

Except with a dps offhand axe, you can choose a defense/utility mainhand like the mace.

options are options

~EW

That usually just means it’ll get paired with warhorn or shield to be a 100% defence/utility set and use your other weapon as dps.

Sure it’s an option, but I doubt it’ll ever be a worthy option.

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Posted by: EphemeralWallaby.7643

EphemeralWallaby.7643

Except with a dps offhand axe, you can choose a defense/utility mainhand like the mace.

options are options

~EW

That usually just means it’ll get paired with warhorn or shield to be a 100% defence/utility set and use your other weapon as dps.

Sure it’s an option, but I doubt it’ll ever be a worthy option.

I’m not so sure about that. For me I’d require slotting Dual Wielding. With that, though, the AA has a good power mod that also gives weakness, there’s a block on a quick cooldown, and a daze interrupt… I think it’d have merit. The daze means you can follow up with your burst (which stuns), followed by the whirling axe. Daze could also remove stability for the stun to land, and the stun keep ’em in place for the whirling axe to hit more and build adrenaline quickly.

Of course I recognize that’s all on paper. In-game such things are rarely so smooth…

~EW

(edited by EphemeralWallaby.7643)

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Posted by: Dand.8231

Dand.8231

The problem is that Axe OH competes with Warhorn and Shield (oh plus mace and sword, but… LOL) which both bring good utility for the situation.

In WvW, Warhorn is king, spamming swiftness, vigor and condi clears.

In small scale stuff (roam, pvp, etc), Shield is king, with a single-target stun, and block.

Notice that the two meta choices both bring something that has NO DAMAGE AT ALL.

Then you have Axe 4, which is some fury and damage, and Axe 5 which is some damage. NOPE.

Here is how to redesign Axe (and shield/mace) to make them decent choices:
Axe 4: Change the attack to a medium range leap, like 450-500 range, similar to Sword2. The damage and fury can stay the same.

Axe 5: Add projectile destruction (not reflection, that’s too OP) to the attack and it’s all set.

While we’re at it: Mace OH
Mace 4: Same as Axe 4, keep the damage and effect the same, but make it into a 450-600 range leap.

Mace 5: Change the skill to travel in a straight line, and move much faster, would be great, sort of like Rev Hammer 2: Coalescence of Ruin.

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Posted by: Lalainnia.3598

Lalainnia.3598

Axes grandmaster trait needs a rework imo and thats where you can add the addtional effects like projectile destruction or something. Currently the 300 ferocity is alright but the adrenaline gain on crits with axe just seems like overkill considering all the ways warrior have to gain adrenaline. Personally for me a traited Axe5 hits for slightly less than a traited GS2 just that it’s mobile but has a longer cd.

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Posted by: Mind Hacker.1409

Mind Hacker.1409

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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

evade frame on the spin? Or would that be to much?

i doubt they will add evade/reflect, afew years ago you could dodge roll while channeling it, i used to combine the spin with 2 dodges for 2x 3-4k reckless dodge crits for some pretty awesome damage (oneshot against quite a few classes back then)

but they nerfed it to remove the ability to dodge so i don’t think they’ll add an evade.

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Posted by: Warlord.9074

Warlord.9074

They should add something to it. I don’t see an issue with it becoming a reflect. I think evade is ok, the use of reckless dodge while channeling is not.

“Just press 2 to win all the dps was us cuz we’re a
warrior and we’re the best class” Eugene

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

An evade during the channel is not a good solution, especially with the increased movement speed it just gained.

Projectile block follow by reflect would be best.

Fishsticks