Guild Wars 2

Strength, Arms, Tactics, Discipline, Defense.

Yep, the trait line names. While they’re just names (and not the whole problem), I believe they’ve subconsciously created pigeonholing of traits The most apparent of these is the trait name Defense. Outside of the Defense trait line, warriors have 4 pickable traits to help with sustain.
1) Quick Breathing (Tactics)
2) Shrug It Off (Tactics)
3) Vigorous Shouts (Tactics)
4) Brawler’s Recovery and Inspiring Battle Standard (mutually exclusive in Discipline)

More importantly, since the majority of sustain traits are in Defense, some traits are mutually exclusive. This is best depicted in the conundrum of picking between Last Stand, Cleansing Ire, and Rousing Resilience. All three improve a warrior’s sustain, all three are mutually exclusive. But since they improve sustain they must go in the Defense trait line, right?

In comparison, Necromancer sustain traits Transfusion, Parasitic Contagion, and Unholy Sanctuary are in three different trait lines (I’m not saying they’re usable or good, simply that they’re separate). Or Engineer, who has two sustain trait lines to choose from (Inventions and Alchemy).

Back to the point.

Choppy’s post (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/A-Better-Approach-to-Trait-Organization) proposes separating the trait lines into direct damage, burst, conditions, tank, support. This type of thinking would be an improvement over the hodge-podge warriors have now. Even better would be this type of thinking combined with his comment on Robert Gee’s concept of 3-paths, which we see in the Beserker trait line (Direct Damage, Conditions, and Survival). Each trait line offering three paths 1) Direct Damage & Burst, 2) Conditions, 3) Tank & Support would be ideal.

What I’d really like to see is what this forum (and Anet) could come up with if they thought outside the box of the current trait line names. For example, what if the trait line names were:
Sharp Weapons
Blunt Weapons
1-Handed
2-Handed
Unicorns & Banners

The above is just one example of names, below is another:
Red
Blue
Green
Orange
Purple

Point is, the trait line names shouldn’t matter. But years of reading the forum posts leads me to believe that those names have created a creative box that the warrior needs to break free from.

Thank you for your comments and consideration.

Wha?

Yeah, its a bit confusing. I totally understand the ‘Wha?’ The point I was hoping to make about the trait line names is to build upon Choppy’s comment of rethinking the trait lines altogether. Your comment in the other thread (below), the trait line “theme”, is exactly the same problem that I’ve seen and believe its limiting creative thinking. Totally hope that didn’t come of snarky, I agree with your comments below.

Furthermore, you point out that currently someone could try to get all the condition traits since they’re spread across different trait lines. I agree, with your observation that having all the condition traits in a single trait line would be a problem (the same problem with having all the sustain traits in Defense). But the concept behind the trait lines do need to be reexamined as Choppy is suggesting.

Cygnus.6903:

Choppy.4183:

I think Berserker provides this already… a bit of a wildcard that could be used for condi, direct damage, or survival. Which path you’d take would depend on your other trait choices and your objectives.

Spreading condis to Strength or direct damage buffs to Arms, I can’t see though… it would just feel like muddling up like we have now, spreading the relevant traits for a build across more than three traitlines.

Your suggestion seems good.

A problem I see is that if every warrior line offers a ‘theme’, you can only take so many traits that benefit you. For example, if you put all condi traits into 1 line, you will lose out on a few traits simply because you have to pick another in that spot. At least now, you can arguably still get all the condi traits by picking ‘awkward’ traitlines. The over-discussed topic of Fast Hands baseline comes to mind here.

As of right now, the gank heavy class that is warrior can do just that reasonably well; ganking. If you take Str, Dis and Berserker, your damage is absolutely batpoop crazy right now.

Still, Anet should follow this topic closely.

What I’m suggesting is scraping the Defense, Strength, Arms, Tactics, Discipline trait lines and starting new. Currently a warriors trait lines are built around core needs/stats:

Power (Strength)
Precision (Arms)
Must-Have (Discipline)
Sustain (Defense)
Bucket for everything else (Tactics)

Who wants to PVE without ‘Power’, ‘Precision’, and ‘Must-Have’. Or go into PVP/WVW without ‘Must-Have’ and ‘Sustain’? No wonder there is such limited build diversity. Why not instead create trait lines imagined around playstyle/buttons? For example an Elementalist has trait lines for Fire, Air, Water, etc. Engineer: Firearms. Ranger: Beastmastery.

What if the Warrior trait lines were similarly built around something like weapons and each path within a line built around types of damage/purpose? If the albeit confusing categories from the opening post were used, Anet might aim for something that looked like:

Sharp Weapons – Trait line
Path 1) Direct & Burst Damage
Path 2) Condition Damage
Path 3) Sustain & Support

Blunt Weapons – Trait line
Path 1) Direct & Burst Damage
Path 2) Condition Damage
Path 3) Sustain & Support

One Handed Weapons – Trait line
Path 1) Direct & Burst Damage
Path 2) Condition Damage
Path 3) Sustain & Support

Two Handed Weapons – Trait line
Path 1) Direct & Burst Damage
Path 2) Condition Damage
Path 3) Sustain & Support

Unicorns & Banners – Trait line
Path 1) Direct & Burst Damage
Path 2) Condition Damage
Path 3) Sustain & Support

This would address your point of allowing someone who wanted to make a batpoop crazy condition build to take three traitlines that ALL focus on conditions. Or let someone who wanted to build a ubertank to take three traitlines that ALL allowed sustain.

Naming/conceptualizing/themeing trait lines built around weapons is one idea. Afterall, the diversity and quick swapping of weapons define the warrior. That said, I’m not sure the trait line names or themes listed above are the ‘best’. I do know that the current thinking of trait line themes (like Defense) need to be reimagined. The warrior is in such a state that its not a matter of tweaking, but a conceptual overhaul. And the place to begin that overhaul is the ‘theme’ of the trait lines themselves. Furthermore, I’m convinced that the community of warriors here are the best folks to rethink the lines.

My comment was directed more to that I think that the names of traitlines don’t matter at all.

I realise what you and Choppy are trying to do here. I honestly think the 3 choices in every line is the best way to go. It will be difficult to make all three viable and interesting in every traitline, but our traitlines are pretty bad as is anyway (three of them being too weak and one of them having a mandatory trait).

What’s your take on Fast Hands? Because that trait alone gives us a mandatory traitline. We can rename and reorganise as much as we want, but with the existence of Fast Hands, choices will remain limited to 2 traitlines out of 5.

And arguably, Defense will be mandatory for PvP. Right now, taking YOLO Str/Dis/Ber is fun but you die.

Cygnus.6903:

My comment was directed more to that I think that the names of traitlines don’t matter at all.

I realise what you and Choppy are trying to do here. I honestly think the 3 choices in every line is the best way to go. It will be difficult to make all three viable and interesting in every traitline, but our traitlines are pretty bad as is anyway (three of them being too weak and one of them having a mandatory trait).

What’s your take on Fast Hands? Because that trait alone gives us a mandatory traitline. We can rename and reorganise as much as we want, but with the existence of Fast Hands, choices will remain limited to 2 traitlines out of 5.

And arguably, Defense will be mandatory for PvP. Right now, taking YOLO Str/Dis/Ber is fun but you die.

Thank you for the clarification. I agree the names of the trait lines shouldn’t matter, but when I look at posts of recommendations to fix warrior traits I get the impression that recommendations are almost always trying to stay within the theme/name – for example ‘Defense’. I’m simply saying, as a community lets be open to thinking outside the existing boxes/names. There is so much creative thinking in these forums I’m confident there wouldn’t be any lack of ideas on how to make all 3 Paths interesting and viable in every trait line.

Regarding ‘Fast Hands’, I’m in the same spot as everyone else: its so mandatory that it feels like it should be baseline. And I can’t imagine roaming around WVW without Warrior’s Sprint (unless I had a warhorn slotted). Unless Fast Hands goes baseline, it’ll always be that must have trait – thus a ‘Must Have’ trait line.

I ‘m with you that Defense has traits that anyone would want against a live player. And under the current organization Defense feels mandatory. That’s why the Defense trait line should be broken apart. By spreading the individual sustain traits across Path3 of the various trait lines would allow for survivability AND build diversity.

The benefit of breaking apart Defense perfectly illustrates the point of rethinking the trait line themes. Imagine if you could go into PVP and only had 1 mandatory trait line (for Fast Hands), knowing that you had the option to pick up a mix of sustain traits from within your other 2 trait lines.

Thanks again for your feedback, greatly appreciated.

Our burst and adrenaline traits are strewn across several trait lines which is arguably good or bad.

Guardians have the benefit/detriment of having all their Virtues on one line. However, they have to pick and choose which traits they want and they can’t have them all.

There is a case to be made whether splitting the Defense line will be good or not but if it did, Warriors will probably just spec into all those lines and grab them all, taking any residual traits along the way.

Again, Defense and Discipline is just a symptom of a greater problem where the base warrior is so poor. We have no counter play like blinds or teleporting and our (mandatory) utilities are too selfish and unimpactful.

I’ve got a much easier five words.

Baseline Fast Hand now please.

About the Warrior’s Sprint baseline, that I don’t agree on and never will. No class has baseline 25% movement speed, and other classes arguably need that just as much as we do if they go double melee. If you don’t go double melee, then there is no solid argument at all.

Combine that with the fact that warrior has amazing access to swiftness and can easily get it permanently at a very reasonable cost (for instance, Rune of the Pack and sigil of Rage), baseline Warrior Sprint seems unneeded.

Cygnus.6903:

About the Warrior’s Sprint baseline, that I don’t agree on and never will. No class has baseline 25% movement speed, and other classes arguably need that just as much as we do if they go double melee. If you don’t go double melee, then there is no solid argument at all.

Combine that with the fact that warrior has amazing access to swiftness and can easily get it permanently at a very reasonable cost (for instance, Rune of the Pack and sigil of Rage), baseline Warrior Sprint seems unneeded.

I agree. It makes warrior players sound greedy. If we stick to baseline Fast Hands and adrenaline decay it’s apparent that we’re just asking for something we generally need to function (like how Mesmers got Illusionary Persona) and a QOL fix that wasn’t even complained about as far as I know when they changed it.

Anything more is excessive. After we get those changes I would gladly start campaigning for changes other classes need baseline to work. I play them all anyways.

I’m baffled as to why Fast Hands is so lauded as a thing to get. It doesn’t make actual cooldowns come by faster. Shrug-worthy sigils, maybe? Discipline’s Fury on switch?
But then you’d still be taking Discipline. Baseline Fast Hands might free up some other trait choices, but…

Fast Hands isn’t going to revolutionize Warrior.

Most of our weapons skills are a joke. Swapping more quickly between two lackluster weapons isn’t going to fix it.
Half utilities are a joke, even when they work like they’re supposed to. Our support’s been nerfed, so the only thing we’re properly allowed is greatsword.

What we need is better access to Stability and Resistance on demand, and for some of our traits to mean something.

Out dated warrior class machanic,

Rauderi.8706:

I’m baffled as to why Fast Hands is so lauded as a thing to get. It doesn’t make actual cooldowns come by faster. Shrug-worthy sigils, maybe? Discipline’s Fury on switch?
But then you’d still be taking Discipline. Baseline Fast Hands might free up some other trait choices, but…

Fast Hands isn’t going to revolutionize Warrior.

Most of our weapons skills are a joke. Swapping more quickly between two lackluster weapons isn’t going to fix it.
Half utilities are a joke, even when they work like they’re supposed to. Our support’s been nerfed, so the only thing we’re properly allowed is greatsword.

What we need is better access to Stability and Resistance on demand, and for some of our traits to mean something.

Wait what?

Disagreeing is one thing, but saying warriors need better access to stability? What?

Cygnus.6903:

About the Warrior’s Sprint baseline, that I don’t agree on and never will. No class has baseline 25% movement speed, and other classes arguably need that just as much as we do if they go double melee. If you don’t go double melee, then there is no solid argument at all.

Combine that with the fact that warrior has amazing access to swiftness and can easily get it permanently at a very reasonable cost (for instance, Rune of the Pack and sigil of Rage), baseline Warrior Sprint seems unneeded.

I totally agree that no class should have +25% movement baselined. That’s crazy greedy.
We, like most classes these days, have a trait for +25% movement (Warrior’s Sprint, ofc). But I wouldn’t by any stretch say we have “amazing access to swiftness.” If we assume an untraited SoR and Pack Runes, that’s barely over 50% coverage out of combat (32.5 sec on 60 sec CD). And a traited SoR is not likely due to Runes of the Pack (power oriented) don’t go well with the Arms Traitline (Condi oriented, but has Sig Mastery). We’re actually quite behind compared to some other classes:
Ranger: a good heal (WeHealAsOne) + a single trait choice in the already popular Beast Mastery line gives real perma Swiftness + perma regen + -20% CD on shouts.
Engi: Streamlined Kits Trait choice + ANY kit = perma Swiftness.
Both are more flexible and effective than Warrior’s option.

perko.8309:

I totally agree that no class should have +25% movement baselined. That’s crazy greedy.
We, like most classes these days, have a trait for +25% movement (Warrior’s Sprint, ofc). But I wouldn’t by any stretch say we have “amazing access to swiftness.” If we assume an untraited SoR and Pack Runes, that’s barely over 50% coverage out of combat (32.5 sec on 60 sec CD). And a traited SoR is not likely due to Runes of the Pack (power oriented) don’t go well with the Arms Traitline (Condi oriented, but has Sig Mastery). We’re actually quite behind compared to some other classes:
Ranger: a good heal (WeHealAsOne) + a single trait choice in the already popular Beast Mastery line gives real perma Swiftness + perma regen + -20% CD on shouts.
Engi: Streamlined Kits Trait choice + ANY kit = perma Swiftness.
Both are more flexible and effective than Warrior’s option.

When I am talking about perma-swiftness with SoR and Pack, I mean in combat off course. Out of combat is exclusively a QoL matter, which balance has nothing to do with in my opinion. I also don’t think the Warrior Sprint baseline request is being made because of out of combat mobility wishes.

That being said, in PvE, you can take a Warhorn offhand set to make it perma quite easily.

I honestly think Warrior’s Sprint is great more so because of the immobilise removal then the 25% speed boost.

Cygnus.6903:

Rauderi.8706:

I’m baffled as to why Fast Hands is so lauded as a thing to get. It doesn’t make actual cooldowns come by faster. Shrug-worthy sigils, maybe? Discipline’s Fury on switch?
But then you’d still be taking Discipline. Baseline Fast Hands might free up some other trait choices, but…

Fast Hands isn’t going to revolutionize Warrior.

Most of our weapons skills are a joke. Swapping more quickly between two lackluster weapons isn’t going to fix it.
Half utilities are a joke, even when they work like they’re supposed to. Our support’s been nerfed, so the only thing we’re properly allowed is greatsword.

What we need is better access to Stability and Resistance on demand, and for some of our traits to mean something.

Wait what?

Disagreeing is one thing, but saying warriors need better access to stability? What?

They do. And the Berserker trait doesn’t count, because it’s not core Warrior. They added it because Warrior needs Stability.

Dolyak Signet and Balanced Stance, like almost every skill with Stability, have cooldowns that are too long to contend with the number of uptime required to tolerate HoT mobs, or even some rare instances in old Tyria (dust mites, etc).

To be honest, I wouldn’t even be calling for it, if some of these one-note HoT mobs didn’t spam knockdowns as basic attacks, making it impossible to melee. Sure, I could use bow/rifle, but would mean having one equipped instead of swapping between two melee.

Rauderi.8706:

I’m baffled as to why Fast Hands is so lauded as a thing to get. It doesn’t make actual cooldowns come by faster. Shrug-worthy sigils, maybe? Discipline’s Fury on switch?
But then you’d still be taking Discipline. Baseline Fast Hands might free up some other trait choices, but…

Fast Hands isn’t going to revolutionize Warrior.

Most of our weapons skills are a joke. Swapping more quickly between two lackluster weapons isn’t going to fix it.
Half utilities are a joke, even when they work like they’re supposed to. Our support’s been nerfed, so the only thing we’re properly allowed is greatsword.

What we need is better access to Stability and Resistance on demand, and for some of our traits to mean something.

Some of this is true.
I agree that we need more meaningful utility skills – as it stands now you either go stances or you’re done. The rest of the utility skills just don’t feel strong or particularly useful.

Bull’s charge would be good if it didn’t overshoot.
The stomp would be good if it didn’t have a insanely huge CD.
Kick is just a joke and incredibly clunky.
The list can go on.

Another issue I feel is a problem is that we still have that insanely high adrenaline decay. Toning it down would help as would baseline fast hands but I feel that the number one problem warrior has is this:

Our core mechanic (adrenaline and burst skills) are too easy to dodge and counter.
The one thing that makes us special – those hard hitting attacks that you build up to are simply too easy to mitigate for most classes out there.

*My suggestion is that F1 skills on warrior should by default be unblockable and unblindable ( but not undodgeable and should still not be able to pierce through invunerability) thus allowing warriors to better connect with their targets and stay on target.

Think about it – there are still ways to counter these – you can dodge, you can blink away, you can stealth, you can pop an invulnerability – but you can no longer just block or blind through them.

It might help alleviate the problems we’re facing right now with classes that have a huge number of methods of countering us.

Arc divider really isn’t hard to land thats why I’m embracing berserk spec right now. Gunflame is also not as hard to land as a normal kill shot. I fell like berserker spec tries to make our bursts more easy to land but it doesn’t go far enough with some other skills and doesn’t adress adrin decay however while you are in in adrin is not hard to build.